erniedenov

Thanks for my first good laugh of the day! :lol: Yeah, I think they used much more sturdy, hi grade components for the Helix, which may have at least something to do with why it costs three times as much as a Pod HD500. I have an HD500 myself and it has one footswitch that only works when it feels like it. I'm much less worried about that happening with my Helix, though it's in the realm of possibility I suppose.

Just taking a little detour from the subject at hand to say... that sounded really good! YOU and the HELIX! Man, if there's still a gap between digital modeling and tube amps at this point, it's barely big enough to stick a credit card through! As for the original subject, I've said my piece. I haven't bought anybody's presets, but I'm not opposed to the idea of selling or buying them and I can't see any reason to get upset if people want to do either. There are much bigger things to worry about in life.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised to find a few former IONers here, especially since there's very little Line 6 conversation going on there now. I started my Line 6 journey with the AxSys 212 and joined that site when I got a Vetta in 2002. My handle name was "No Pride." I was mostly hanging at the Vetta forum, but participated in Coffee Talk (still do, with about 8 other people). Andy Z, father of the site worked for Line 6 for a few years before he was laid off. Monkey was (and I'm sure still is) crazy as a bedbug! It took him over a year to discover the Vetta's edit button, and then only when his son pointed it out to him. LOL!

I can understand the benefits of buying those patches to get a glimpse of how these guys set up their sounds; use routing, model choices, etc. I haven't done so, mostly because I like to figure things out on my own, which is not to say I haven't benefited from much of the great advice that is shared at this forum. The reason you may very well find these patches to be underwhelming should be obvious; they weren't made with your guitar. Even if they were made with a guitar that's the same make and model as yours, the pickups may have been adjusted differently or they used a different string brand and/or gauge... not to mention the percentage of tone that comes from your own hands. I'd guess most of us have experienced the phenomenon of playing through someone else's entire rig (or having someone play ours) and having it sound completely different. I spent a lot of time at the unofficial Line 6 forum, Institute of Noise .com, which was very active when items like the Vetta and Variax were new (these days, it's just an unpopulated Internet watering hole, where a handful of guys just shoot the lollipop about anything). I was active in the Vetta forum there and we used to share a lot of patches via the patch database there; much like Custom Tone. Though I learned a few things from other people's patches, I found the vast majority of them to be unusable for my needs unless (in a handful of cases) I heavily modified them. I eventually stopped checking them out. I guess I'm just saying that I have nothing against people selling their patches... or buying them, for that matter. If it works for you; great! If you're not interested in doing that... well it's not a problem, is it?!

I never consciously try to emulate other people's tones, but I do like some lower voiced midrange in my lead sound and my favorite way to get that with the Helix so far is with the Minotaur's tone control. It acts like the filter on a ProCo Rat, but I like it better than the Rat model (Vermin). Try it in front of a medium or high gain amp and set the Minotaur's tone somewhere around 5. It's up to you whether you want to get more drive out of the amp or the Minotaur, but you'll want to set the drive somewhat low on one of them or it will get pretty noisy. I'm generally more of a jazz/rock fusion guy, but my roots are in rock and I do like King's X a lot; I have about a half dozen of their albums and have seen them live; great band! I don't know if this will help but... hey, I tried!

I'm with you. For me, effects are like spices; used modestly, they enhance the flavor of the meat; use too much and they overpower it. I do have one patch that has a bunch of delay, reverb, chorus and compression; it's for volume pedal swells. But it's the exception and something I only use occasionally. I've got no complaints about the Helix delays; they sound great to me!

I agree with what seems to be the general consensus here; 25 amp models are more than enough, especially taking into consideration all of the options we have to manipulate those models. I started using digital modeling way back when Line 6 came up with the AxSys 212 combo amp. My basic tweaking method is to make 4 patches, each with a different amp model to make whatever sound I'm going for; then tweak each to satisfaction, compare and choose. I discovered that I can get four different amp models to sound pretty darn close to each other with enough EQing. Don't drive yourself crazy with option overload! If you have a sound in your head, you're very likely to find it in Helix sooner or later if you're willing to turn enough knobs. Also, don't restrict yourself to expectations of what the "real world" amp that's being modeled is supposed to sound like. I came up with a lead tone that sounds pretty similar to my old Mesa/Boogie Mark IIc by using a Marshall JCM 800 model with the Minotaur (Klon model) distortion box in front of it. I found that appealing Mark IIc midrange voicing with it's filter parameter.

It dawns on me that there's not a lot of hope that one FRFR powered speaker with one 12" speaker and a tweeter is going to be anywhere in the ballpark of a PA with a dozen or more enclosed speaker cabs, regardless of flat response. I honestly don't know for sure. I'll have to ask him. But we're not a band that travels with a semi full of gear; most of it is rented; definitely the PA is. I'm sure specific gear is listed on the rider, but that's no guarantee that you're always going to get what you ask for. Great point! True that! And nothing I can do about it besides trust in the competency of the soundman. Sometimes we play in horrible sounding venues like airplane hangars. I used to hate playing outdoors, but because of situations like that, I've grown to appreciate it. I didn't tweak THAT loud at home; I doubt it was even 100 dB. It's not hard to rattle the windows in my living room. The powered speaker I have is an Alto Truesonic TS 212. I've not had the opportunity to audition anything else. It got a lot of good reviews and most importantly, it was in my price range. When I first heard my headphone jack-built patches on it, I was shocked at how much bass and treble there was and how much I had to use hi and low cuts. Something seemed wrong; maybe it's just the acoustics in my living room. Perhaps mounting the speaker of a stand would make some difference too. I don't know anything about the PAs that are being used. They say ignorance is bliss and I've been blissfully unaware of so much that goes into putting on these concerts with the touring band. I just know that between all the various logistics, 7 instrumentalists and 5 singers (one occasionally playing acoustic guitar and another occasionally playing violin), over 2 dozen wireless systems, 5 crew members, etc. it's a lot! Amp and cab models? Oy! I was mostly using a Matchless for clean or semi-dirt, Dual Recto for crunch/power chord/riffing and the Marshall JCM 800 with the Klon model in front for leads. Sometimes I use "amp + cab," but I tend to use the Boogie 4x12 cab with different amps at times. It's what I'm used to and the model is at least close, if no cigar. I have yet to get any second party IRs, but probably will at some point. I'm no stranger to "DUH moments," but this wasn't one of them. I have my headphone and powered speaker patches in separate (appropriately labeled) setlists. And I'm so glad that firmware 2.00 gave us the ability to name setlists! Well I'm glad I'm not the only one; I don't feel so lonely now! Anyway, just as it is with being a musician in general, it's a learning process. The more you know, the more you find that you don't know. I still consider myself a Helix newbie and I'll get it sorted out eventually, especially with the help of you guys! Thanks so much for the responses; I do appreciate them!

Lots of interesting comments, as I expected; thanks for the replies! Okay, this is not Helix related and I feel dumb even asking, but I think I have to at this point. How do you use "quote" and "multiquote" here? In the other two discussion sites I frequent, you just click "quote" and the quote instantly comes up on your reply post, but it apparently doesn't work that way here. It's going to be much more convenient to discuss things with you all when I know how to use that feature. And... thanks in advance!

First off, it's not my intent to offend anyone; I have much respect and appreciation for the knowledge and experienced advice you guys offer here and I just couldn't come up with a better thread title. With that out of the way, I had a somewhat shocking thing happen at last Friday's gig with my Helix that I'd like to share. I play with two cover bands on a pretty consistent basis. One is a wedding/corporate event band that plays locally and the other one tours and plays mostly events for the US military; USO shows and fund raising events. In both bands, we use in-ear monitors, but in the wedding band, I go from multi-effects/preamp unit (formerly Pod HD500, currently Helix) direct to FOH. In the touring band, I'm provided a rented Mesa/Boogie Triple Rectifier half stack and I use my Line 6 M13 with it. The wedding band plays small to medium size ballrooms and the touring band plays larger venues (often outdoors) on relatively sizeable stages with a bigger PA. Anyway, on Friday night, I used my Helix and went ampless with the touring band for the first time. I should preface this by mentioning that with the wedding band I'm using patches that I programmed with my in-ears through the headphone jack. I don't know what it sounds like through the FOH, but it sounds great in my in-ears. That band uses a smallish PA, doesn't play all that loud and the soundman hasn't complained about my EQ, so I've just been assuming it sounds fine. But... With the touring band, I figured I'd better use the different set of patches that I made using my FRFR powered speaker, tweaked at window rattling volume in my home. I never used any hi or low cuts with my headphone jack patches, but I had to use them fairly extensively with the ones I made with the powered speaker. So at soundcheck for the touring band's gig, I sent the Helix direct to FOH using XLRs (stereo for the first time!) into line inputs on the board. I could tell our FOH soundman wasn't digging my sounds at first, though he wouldn't actually come out and say they sucked (he's that rare combination of a good sound engineer and a nice, accommodating guy). After a few minutes, I was able to stand out in the audience's area in front of the PA (since my guitar is wireless in that band) and my tones did indeed suck! They were thin, dull and lifeless. At that point, I told him to wait a minute and I pulled up my setlist of headphone jack-built patches... and he said, "ah... now THAT sounds like YOU!" WHAT?!!! I don't get it. Why were those patches the ones that worked? I've been mulling it over in my brain, trying to consider the physics of the Fletcher Munson Curve. I do make the headphone jack patches at a reasonably high volume, which obviously makes a difference in perceived frequencies. Is that an adequate way to tweak after all? I'm curious to hear your thoughts, fellow Helix users!

I'd been using my Pod HD500 with my Line 6 DT-25 combo via Line 6 LINK and was pretty pleased with how they sounded together. But when the leader of one of the two bands I play with consistently decided that he didn't want amplifiers onstage anymore and we'd all use in-ear monitors and go direct to the board, I was not happy with the HD500, not within that format. I had to grin and bear it for a couple of years, but it wasn't easy; just didn't dig my tones much at all. It's night and day between it and Helix; I'm actually loving what I hear in my in-ears now. Definitely worth every penny! I went with the Sweetwater 36 month financing thing too (they do that for limited time frames a couple of times a year). I wasn't in a position to just drop $1,500, so that made it doable. I'd recommend jumping on that deal while you can!

Oops, I meant that I haven't used the editor for actual patch editing. I have used it to back up my patches when I updated to OS 2.00. Haven't updated to 2.01; just figured I'd wait until the next version since I wasn't having issues with any of the bugs.

I kept hearing about how user friendly the UI was, but when I spent my first few hours with Helix, I felt like that was far from the truth. But that was me being foolishly arrogant enough to think I could figure everything out by myself. The next day, I had the two-sided cheat sheet next to the Helix and it all quickly started making sense, aside from a few things that only the user's manual could explain. Now I have to concur; the thing is laid out very intelligently and has the best and easiest UI Line 6 has ever come up with. And I love how little time it can take to build a great sounding patch! To tell the truth, I'd spent so many hours (months, actually) programming my Vetta that I gradually went from enjoying tweak time to hating it (and my tinnitus afflicted ears didn't appreciate it either). So I'm very grateful that it goes so much quicker with Helix! BTW, I've never used the editor on the Helix or the Vetta, for that matter. I know many who do, but I don't see the need for it. Speaking of manuals, I have to say that I do miss the days when a fellow named GVW wrote the manuals for Line 6; they were informative, but also hilarious! After I had the Vetta pretty well figured out, I re-read it just for laughs. These days, the manuals are quite helpful, but the entertainment factor just isn't the same.

I use the hi and low cuts on the individual cab parameters at least with my powered FRFR speaker. I haven't actually used any cuts on the patches I made with the headphone jack... and I modified those ones with cuts (rather than starting over from scratch) to accommodate the speaker, which I'm hoping will sound good direct to the FOH. I haven't downloaded any second party IRs yet; perhaps I will at some point. I can't imagine that there's a universal range of frequencies that'll work for everyone. Guitar pickups can have wildly different EQs, not to mention how they're adjusted. And they're just a part of the equation when it comes to what gives a guitar it's tone.

The not so expensive headphones aren't helping, but (as has been mentioned many times here), Helix has to be tweaked to accommodate whatever you're going to be using it with. I initially tweaked mine with my $500 Shure SE535 triple driver in-ear monitors. I thought my patches were sounding great, but when I heard them through my new Alto Truesonic powered speaker at gig volume, they sounded awful. I now use separate setlists for whatever I'm going to run the Helix through and tweak accordingly.

Like Spikey, my Line 6 Vetta is still working after 14 years as well and it's basically just a computer with speakers. I haven't even had to replace the battery. It's power amp blew once, but the guy at the shop had a spare handy and I got it back the next day. I haven't used it much in the past 2 years, but trust me, it has logged in countless hours in the trenches. Parts are going to be hard to impossible to replace now that they discontinued it a few years back, but then again, the technology has moved forward and it's not as amazing to me as is once was. The same will be true for the Helix down the road. Worrying about it now would be what my mother would've called "borrowing trouble." Why would you want to do that?!

I had trouble engaging the unit's expression pedal for wah at first; now it's about as easy as a "real world" wah. You don't have to push it hard; just put a little weight on it and it'll click on. I particularly like the "Throaty" one! But here's the weird thing: I found the default setting for the wah to be much louder than the original signal, especially on clean amps. I think the second post I made after joining this forum was about that. Somebody told me to turn the mix parameter down, but all that did was mix more of the straight signal in. Now I turn the wah level down to around -.07 dB. I just found that a little strange, as I've owned AxeSys 2x12, Flextone, Vetta and Pod HD500 and none of those units' wahs behaved like that. No big deal, just a bit of an oddity.

I learned a couple of new Helix tricks from this. The guy must've locked himself in his studio for hours after receiving his. Good player, good demo!

About a month ago, I tried the Helix preamps into the effects loop of my DT-25 and had the same experience. The 25 watt power amp doesn't get all that loud in the first place, although it sufficed at gigs when I used my Pod HD500 preamps with it via Line 6 Link. Of course the HD500 is a different platform than Helix and at least so far, Line 6 Link seems pretty useless with it unless you're using one of the Line 6 powered speakers (at least from what I understand). At the time, I knew much less about various ways to boost outputs on Helix and I deemed the preamps with the DT-25 to be a pretty useless configuration. At this point, I'm using an Alto Truesonic TS 212 powered speaker and I'm not interested in having Helix preamps work the DT-25 anymore.

Like Cerrucho, I play with a band that tours all over the US and we play overseas once a year; been with them for 12 years now. I've been using rented Mesa Triple Rectifier half-stacks and I fly with my Suhr Strat and a Line 6 M13. The Triple Recto isn't my favorite amp ever, it's just my choice amongst what is generally available from backline companies. It does have a beautiful clean sound but I don't like the way the midrange is voiced on the 2nd and 3rd channels; I use the M13's Tube Screamer in front of the amp to smooth out those mids. Anyway, I'm planning on replacing the current rig with Helix soon. I haven't had mine for that long and I just recently started feeling confident enough that the patches I've made are going to sound good in the FOH. I have used it with the wedding/corporate party band I play with, but the touring band plays on big stages, sometimes for crowds in the thousands, so it's going to be a different ballgame! I've mentioned my plans to use the Helix to the band's tour/production manager and the monitor mixer; they both think it's going to be too weird to not have an amp on the stage. But our FOH soundman said, "let's go for it!" And we will! Anyway, I agree with those who think the reason we're not seeing the "big names" using Helix yet is simply because it hasn't been around for long. I suspect that within a year's time, it'll be a different story. I don't expect many of those guys will be using the Helix by itself, but it's bound to at least be a part of their rig. The Fractal and Kemper units didn't exactly burst on the scene suddenly; we gradually saw more and more guitar stars start using them. Helix is at least in the same league and it's more easy to program than either. Let's just wait and see what happens...

Two great amps that I used to have and sold them like an idiot (still kicking myself): Mesa/Boogie Mark IIc Bogner Ecstasy A Diezel would be nice too!

I have an Alto Truesonic TS212 and thought I was running out of volume until I realized I had global outputs set to mic instead of line. Once I changed that, the thing was twice as loud... and can easily hold it's own with a loud drummer. Just thought I'd mention that in case you don't have globals set to line.

Another XLR to FOH guy, using in-ear monitors. Last weekend, I used an FRFR powered monitor that I just got for the first time and sent it's output to FOH and wasn't using in-ears. I had to do a lot of last minute tweaking because there was so much bass and treble going on from the patches I made with the headphone jack. That caused me to rethink making patches using the headphone jack, though I suppose they'll work in the studio. Yesterday, I spent about two hours with my powered speaker at something in the ballpark of "gig volume," using hi and low cut filters quite a bit. I have a feeling those re-tweaked patches are what I'll be using most, direct to the FOH and/or with my powered speaker. Live and learn!

Well this turned out to be a really interesting thread that generated a lot more discussion than I expected! And I'm impressed with the amount of knowledge around here, especially pertaining to sound engineering, something I'll admit that I know nothing about. I'm just your stereotypical dumb guitar player and I'm used to just turning knobs until things sound good. So anyway, I got a chance to tweak my Helix with my powered speaker at a reasonably loud volume today. I hadn't previously used hi or low cuts until now and discovered that they come in pretty handy (I know, DUH!). I never had that option on the various tube amps I've had. Of course Helix is a whole different animal! So I'm pretty pleased with what I'm hearing out of my powered speaker now; it'll be interesting to find out what the sound guys I work with think when I use these patches direct to the board. Again, thanks for the comments, everybody!

Thanks for all the replies, guys! The consensus seems to be that it's best to tweak my patches using my FRFR powered speaker at a volume that's at least in the ballpark of what it would be coming out of the FOH. That makes sense, but here's my quandary: If I'm digging the way my guitar is sounding in my in-ears with the patches I created using the headphone jack, I'm afraid I'm going to be pretty unhappy hearing them after I've re-tweaked them for optimum tone in the FOH; they'll sound thin and dull in my in-ear mix. It's no secret that the happier you are with your sound, the better you're going to play. I don't think I'm altruistic enough to give the audience the best sound I can give them at the expense of my own enjoyment. Let's face it, though we obviously want the audience to like us, our top priority is to please ourselves. I think the gigs I've enjoyed the most in my career were when I was playing in a venue small enough where it wasn't necessary to mic my amp at all and everybody was generally hearing what I was hearing coming out of my speakers (taking into consideration the difference in proximity to those speakers). I realize this poses a more difficult question and perhaps the only answer is the acceptance of compromise. Thoughts?