M20D Should I keep my order or cancel?

[hippiecow]

I ordered an M20D through Sweetwater (still waiting for it to be shipped) but have since read numerous posts and am worried by what appears to be the lack of support from Line 6 regarding updates, etc. I placed my order nearly 2 months ago and am still waiting for Sweetwater to receive inventory. Should i cancel my order and go with another board such as the Studiolive, Touchmix or x32 or will it be worth it for me to stay patient?

[silverhead]

The M20d operates exactly as advertised. It remains fully supported by Line 6. That does not mean there's a guarantee of any future updates or improvements. But it will at the very least continue to operate as it does today.

 

In my opinion you should base your decision on the extent to which the various candidate devices meet your needs and desires today - not what they may or may not do at some future time.

[hippiecow]

The M20d operates exactly as advertised. It remains fully supported by Line 6. That does not mean there's a guarantee of any future updates or improvements. But it will at the very least continue to operate as it does today.

 

In my opinion you should base your decision on the extent to which the various candidate devices meet your needs and desires today - not what they may or may not do at some future time.

Thanks for the response however I have to disagree. If there is one thing I've learned in 30 years of making music AND developing technology its that scalability should always be a consideration. All 4 boards will serve my needs today so future support and scalability is important. I've owned and continue to own numerous Line 6 products Variax JTV-59, PodXT, Amplifi FX100, Stagesource L2t / L2m and have always been impressed with the quality of the product. However, the long delay in shipping combined with the comments about slow / no release updates and communication are making me wonder if Line 6 is planning on making a major product shift away from the M20D. Having once worked for Apple they would exhibit a similar behavior when sunsetting products.

[ColonelForbin]

I ordered an M20D through Sweetwater (still waiting for it to be shipped) but have since read numerous posts and am worried by what appears to be the lack of support from Line 6 regarding updates, etc. I placed my order nearly 2 months ago and am still waiting for Sweetwater to receive inventory. Should i cancel my order and go with another board such as the Studiolive, Touchmix or x32 or will it be worth it for me to stay patient?

Two months?? whoa.. I also bought my M20d from Sweetwater, the two year coverage made the decision easier.. Unfortunately I bought mine before the price drop..

 

That being said, after Sweetwater replaced my first unit which was hardware defective, the unit I have now has been flawless. Looking forward to putting it to use for gigs this summer- recently added a pair of L3m speakers to the rig. Bought the pair of L2t last year around the same time as I got the M20d.

 

I guess the question being, what do *you* need it to do?

 

-Are four monitors sends enough?

-Are twelve XLR inputs enough?

-Do you intend to use the Line6 link -feature, as in, with L2 and L3 Stagesource speakers?

[silverhead]

If you're looking for information on future Line 6 products and specific product development plans you won't find it here. Your guess is as good as anyone else's re: future development plans and scalability for all candidate mixers. You can factor any speculation you wish on these points into your decision.

[hippiecow]

Thanks Silverhead and ColonelForbin, I realize this is not the place to get definitive answers. I am confident that the capacity of the board will serve my needs and am also confident in the reputation of Line 6. I'm looking for a multi use board that I can use in smaller venues in a more self-serve scenario (no sound man with a 5 piece band in addition to serving as an I/O for my DAW. I like the idea of using L6 but am not married to it. I guess after 7 weeks of waiting, buyers remorse and 2nd guessing are beginning to sink in. It would probably make me less restless if I had an idea as to delivery date.

[Rick_Auricchio]

... scalability should always be a consideration.

 

What are you expecting with this statement? There's not going to be a way to add more faders to most mixing boards, so they don't scale to more channels. You can't add more channels to a power amp. You can't add more inputs and outputs without building a totally new unit.

 

Just because there is firmware inside the M20d, do you expect that it should be upgradeable to do whatever you might want in the future? This is hardly the case. The hardware is not going to change on existing customer equipment, just like your car doesn't get the new engine that comes out in the next model.

 

I went through this process with the Panasonic/Ramsa WR-DA7 digital board in the late 90s. Many user requests did make it in to the second firmware upgrade, but a lot did not, because those features weren't possible with the existing hardware.

 

As others have said, buy your equipment with the expectation that it will always do what it does today---and won't adapt to future situations. It will continue to do the job it was built to do, just as a vehicle continues to do the job it did from day one. My 2012 car can't be upgraded to 2015 standards and equipment either.

 

 

"...Having once worked for Apple they would exhibit a similar behavior when sunsetting products."

 

Doesn't every manufacturer? (Auto companies are required by law to maintain parts inventories for a number of years, but I don't think any other manufacturer need do that.) When a company wants to implement new features---and the hardware won't allow it---then it's time to build a new product. Owners of the previous product either keep it working as it was, or move to the newer product.

[TheRealZap]

i'm confident that the m20d will get future updates.... once they come out with smaller and larger versions... they will likely carry over any development to the current version....

they have a diverse product line and they do much more than just mixers... clearly....

 

this is of course my opinion and speculation at best... but i'd be surprised if i'm wrong....

 

check out http://line6.ideascale.com for the ideas others have had... and add your own!!!

this will be a good indicator of what they are working on... and a good chance to throw your ideas into the mix.

it's also the best place to get a peek at what MIGHT happen in a future update... they really do pay attention.

[ColonelForbin]

Thanks Silverhead and ColonelForbin, I realize this is not the place to get definitive answers. I am confident that the capacity of the board will serve my needs and am also confident in the reputation of Line 6. I'm looking for a multi use board that I can use in smaller venues in a more self-serve scenario (no sound man with a 5 piece band in addition to serving as an I/O for my DAW. I like the idea of using L6 but am not married to it. I guess after 7 weeks of waiting, buyers remorse and 2nd guessing are beginning to sink in. It would probably make me less restless if I had an idea as to delivery date.

 

I am wondering if the delay is more due to the west coast port issues? I know they ended the strike, but I think the backlog remains. I think this same delay is also hitting their brand-new Variax Standard; which was due out in March, and is now being pushed back to end of May or beyond..

[ColonelForbin]

Somewhat related here; anyone have a good recommendation for a stage snake to use with the M20d?

Does anyone find that useful and/or use one, or do you typically just keep the mixer on stage?

 

I was starting to scope out some 12 XLR 25' to 50' length stage snakes, and they are expensive! Mostly thinking in terms of when my band uses our own gear, but have our guy doing sound for us, so we can run a snake to the side of the stage, or somewhere reasonable for him to access the mixer, without having to daisy chain XLR cables to get all the way to the mixer.

 

I like to mic everything, and run it all to the mixer whenever possible, primarily to get a decent multi-track recording on the M20d.

I have a decent set of Audix drum mics, which makes it pretty easy! And as of now, my band is only a four piece, at most only three vocal mics - but usually only one vocal.. When I only use one vocal, I typically just add more drum mics; tom-tom clip ons or a snare under sometimes. So I have some flexibility. Looks something like this-

 

1.) guitar 1A (lead electric)

2.) guitar 1B (lead acoustic)

3.) guitar 2A (rhy electric)

4.) guitar 2B (rhy acoustic)

5.) bass

6.) vocal 1

7.) vocal 2 (or drum mic)

8.) vocal 3 (or drum mic)

9.) kick 

10.) snare

11.) overhead L

12.) overhead R

 

(I put all the drum mics in 7-12 so I can activate the phantom +48v power on those mics, and not on the signals with direct XLR connections - which in this case, is all four of the guitar signals.)

 

Seems that vocal mics that don't need phantom handle it better than direct / DI signals that definitely don't want it.. At least one of the vocal mics does require phantom power, so that works reasonably well.

 

I found these; comparable priced snakes; not sure I need the four returns, but can't hurt - right now using a pair of L2t's for our stage monitors, and a pair of L3m's for the mains - but I could see using the extra XLR returns for in-ears or some other non-L6 powered stage monitors..

 

50', 12x4: $160

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MUPHWSNK?siid=102767

 

50', 12x4: $200

http://www.zzounds.com/item--PRCSTAGEMN?siid=106094

 

25', 12 only, no returns: $270

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Mini12-25

 

50', 12x4: $150

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/musicians-gear-stage-snake/j12018000001001

 

I already have a newer iPad, so "option B" is fairly obvious - get an Airport Express for less cost than any of these snakes!! I have been somewhat reluctant to utilize that particular aspect of the M20d, and I don't really have any good reason for my hesitation.. I suppose the idea of handing our soundguy an iPad is still probably more attractive than getting a big, heavy, expensive snake..

[groovedggr]

Somewhat related here; anyone have a good recommendation for a stage snake to use with the M20d?

Does anyone find that useful and/or use one, or do you typically just keep the mixer on stage?

 

I was starting to scope out some 12 XLR 25' to 50' length stage snakes, and they are expensive! Mostly thinking in terms of when my band uses our own gear, but have our guy doing sound for us, so we can run a snake to the side of the stage, or somewhere reasonable for him to access the mixer, without having to daisy chain XLR cables to get all the way to the mixer.

 

I like to mic everything, and run it all to the mixer whenever possible, primarily to get a decent multi-track recording on the M20d.

I have a decent set of Audix drum mics, which makes it pretty easy! And as of now, my band is only a four piece, at most only three vocal mics - but usually only one vocal.. When I only use one vocal, I typically just add more drum mics; tom-tom clip ons or a snare under sometimes. So I have some flexibility. Looks something like this-

 

1.) guitar 1A (lead electric)

2.) guitar 1B (lead acoustic)

3.) guitar 2A (rhy electric)

4.) guitar 2B (rhy acoustic)

5.) bass

6.) vocal 1

7.) vocal 2 (or drum mic)

8.) vocal 3 (or drum mic)

9.) kick 

10.) snare

11.) overhead L

12.) overhead R

 

(I put all the drum mics in 7-12 so I can activate the phantom +48v power on those mics, and not on the signals with direct XLR connections - which in this case, is all four of the guitar signals.)

 

Seems that vocal mics that don't need phantom handle it better than direct / DI signals that definitely don't want it.. At least one of the vocal mics does require phantom power, so that works reasonably well.

 

I found these; comparable priced snakes; not sure I need the four returns, but can't hurt - right now using a pair of L2t's for our stage monitors, and a pair of L3m's for the mains - but I could see using the extra XLR returns for in-ears or some other non-L6 powered stage monitors..

 

50', 12x4: $160

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MUPHWSNK?siid=102767

 

50', 12x4: $200

http://www.zzounds.com/item--PRCSTAGEMN?siid=106094

 

25', 12 only, no returns: $270

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Mini12-25

 

50', 12x4: $150

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/musicians-gear-stage-snake/j12018000001001

 

I already have a newer iPad, so "option B" is fairly obvious - get an Airport Express for less cost than any of these snakes!! I have been somewhat reluctant to utilize that particular aspect of the M20d, and I don't really have any good reason for my hesitation.. I suppose the idea of handing our soundguy an iPad is still probably more attractive than getting a big, heavy, expensive snake..

 

Don't want to steal the thread so I have to say that I was probably one of the 1st ones to buy M20d and I recommend the M20d and especially since the price is better now and I don't need any more updates - (the 1st 2 updates were highly needed) Even if they offered something newer - mine works great - especially with iPad --- and I recommend to everyone including ColonelForbin to just use the iPad - it's amazing and easy and you can adjust from everywhere - including standing on stage. Most of the time in the places we play, I try to set the L3 main speakers off to the side of the band and angle them in so we can hear the mains too. The only reason I would use sound man - is for recording, but most days I just put a stereo mic on stage for recording- easier. I have used the small 25 ft Lil-bro snake ($49) to clear cable mess and for mics on drums but again we play small venues and stay close together. Although I ran outdoor concert and connected 6 L3's 2 L2's and 3 Ls and had to have a small portable battery with me when iPad was running low- portable battery was $20 and glad I did. The Lil Bro snake was all I needed- just make sure you have right length cables for putting keyboards in direct to #13-16.

I have used the apple express and also recently bought the netgear n600 as recommended when using other line 6 wireless gear to avoid interference. The net gear was $70 and can use 5g which reportedly causes no interference in crowded rooms. 

[ColonelForbin]

especially with iPad --- and I recommend to everyone including ColonelForbin to just use the iPad - it's amazing and easy and you can adjust from everywhere - including standing on stage. 

 

I have used the apple express and also recently bought the netgear n600 as recommended when using other line 6 wireless gear to avoid interference. The net gear was $70 and can use 5g which reportedly causes no interference in crowded rooms. 

 

How does the Netgear hold up compared with the 'recommended' Apple equipment?

Feeling like some version of this feature is the 'next step' for me with this rig!

[groovedggr]

How does the Netgear hold up compared with the 'recommended' Apple equipment?

Feeling like some version of this feature is the 'next step' for me with this rig!

 

The apple had problems when I was using other line6 wireless devices - and it wasn't easy to connect for 5g.

The netgear n600 connected easily for me but I haven't used it in a severe setting yet using the v75 and relay 30 yet, so can't tell you directly but according to others - it was the one to get- belkin has one cheaper but I chose netgear due to the visual lights on the side which told me I was in 5G- I as able to walk into other rooms out of sight with doors shut and still had control.

[SiWatts69]

How does the Netgear hold up compared with the 'recommended' Apple equipment?

Feeling like some version of this feature is the 'next step' for me with this rig!

I've an Apple Airport Express and run a Line6 XD-V75BP beltpack wireless system for my sax.

 

Gigged last night with both in play, mixing done from the back of the (sideways orientated) room via iPad about 20 feet from router positioned on the other side of a foot thick wall, my Line6 receiver approx. 4' away from it, again on the other side (stage side) of the wall. I made my initial entrance from a room at the back corner of the room (playing at the time) and made my way through the audience, spending the first track I was doing out on the audience floor moving amongst them and from the recordings there was just one tiny drop out right at the outset whilst I was technically still in the other room (ie 2 walls in my way). iPad connection remained stable throughout the night including roaming all over the room. Audience of approx. 300, loads of whom had mobiles etc.

 

In countless times using the iPad, I've only experienced one lost connection.

 

Running additional Line6 wireless units might have a bigger impact, but certainly from last night's perspective, it all went brilliantly.

 

Whilst you can't disable the 2G broadcast on the airport, you can instruct your iPad to only connect to the 5G network it creates.

 

It is perhaps worth noting, Line6 make no specific recommendations regarding the use of the Apple Airport Express Router. *ANY* 2G/5G router will work. The only piece of required hardware that is recommended as Apple is the USB to Ethernet adapter.

[66d35]

 I'm looking for a multi use board that I can use in smaller venues in a more self-serve scenario (no sound man with a 5 piece band in addition to serving as an I/O for my DAW.

 

It will record separate tracks to an inserted memory card. In that respect, as a 'capture' device for live shows it works well. As an audio interface, however, that is not its intended purpose and it really is not well suited to that - it has very high latency, for one thing. You do specifically mention 'I/O' for your DAW, so check out the limitations here carefully. In short, as a self-contained live show multi-track recorder with the files on the card for later import to to your DAW it is fine. It is not a substitute for a dedicated audio intereface, however. Look elsewhere if this is a requirement.

[ColonelForbin]

you can use it to send to DAW, multitrack. and you can play from DAW through M20d.

 

However, as 66d35 mentioned, in terms of both I and O while tracking, latency!! meaning, you can't do both at once, in terms of playing existing track from DAW while recording new track to DAW, without bad latency.

 

recording live with the USB streaming to a DAW should work, but seems like it would be easier to just use the onboard sd card.

[maxnew40]

I have heard rumors from several different sources that the whole StageSource line is going to be discontinued. I am just about the pull the trigger on a M20D, a couple of L3, and an L3s. The whole rumor thing is making me hesitate and I have no idea if the rumors have any basis in fact or not.

 

I do think that this equipment does what I need and I fully expect if they stop selling them they will still support them.

 

-Max

[silverhead]

.... The whole rumor thing is making me hesitate and I have no idea if the rumors have any basis in fact or not.

....

 

-Max

Well I have to say it's not helpful to be repeating admittedly unsubstantiated rumours from unnamed sources.

 

I heard a rumour that those rumours are false, but can't tell you where I heard it and I don't know if it's true.

[BucF16]

I'm a big line 6 fan.  HOWEVER, they've done very little to instill confidence that they're in this market (live sound and PA) for the long haul.

 

It's been a hallmark of Line 6 to be very tight lipped about future development of products. That's cool.  However, I'm pretty confident that they'll continue to make guitars, amplifiers, and effects boxes.

 

If they want this kind of discussion to stop, they need to make some kind of statement to reassure the marketplace.  They're competing with other companies that have shown staying power and clearly are developing more products in this area.  Meanwhile Line 6 sits back silently like a poker player and tries to treat the customer like he's over entitled to ask for the same reassurances that other companies in the marketplace are providing.

 

I like my M20d and love my stagesource speakers.  But you can't blame people for what has become a constant complaint.  Namely, is there a future in Line 6 pa gear.

[maxnew40]

What is not unsubstantiated rumor is that many of the European sellers of this gear already state the product is discontinued. This is not rumor but fact. Guitar Center no longer carries this stuff, but claim they can special order it. Does this mean that Line 6 is not going to make it anymore? We can't really be sure, it may be that these dealers have found that they can't sell enough if this stuff to make it worth having any stock on hand.

 

For myself I am not that worried about if the product is discontinued as long as Line 6 supports the units for many years down the road. I love my L2 speakers and our band plans on buying two L3s, L3s, and an M20D, but even finding these pieces in stock anywhere has been a real challenge.

 

-Max

[ArneLine6]

We are making and supporting StageScape M20d and StageSource speakers. This is official :)

 

We had a shortage due to production which is resolved now.

 

Thank you,

 

Arne Wallbrecher

[Rick_Auricchio]

Thank you, Arne. I realize you're unable to comment further, but you've provided encouragement to the community.

[ArneLine6]

Another issue that lead to shortages was our change in the European distribution. This is also resolved but it takes some time until the dealers get the orders from the new distributor.

[litesnsirens]

Arne, this is very good news and should lay to rest a number of concerns in many threads that are on the boards right now.  I'm very happy that this product line will continue, it's a great product.

[ColonelForbin]

We are making and supporting StageScape M20d and StageSource speakers. This is official  :)

 

We had a shortage due to production which is resolved now.

 

Thank you,

 

Arne Wallbrecher

 

 

For myself I am not that worried about if the product is discontinued as long as Line 6 supports the units for many years down the road. I love my L2 speakers and our band plans on buying two L3s, L3s, and an M20D, but even finding these pieces in stock anywhere has been a real challenge.

 

-Max

 

 

I want to add at least one L3s sub to my band's rig! We currently have a pair of L2t's, pair of L3m, and the M20d. It's been outstanding for my needs, both with the band, and at home in my 'mini' studio. :)

[BucF16]

We are making and supporting StageScape M20d and StageSource speakers. This is official :)

 

We had a shortage due to production which is resolved now.

 

Thank you,

 

Arne Wallbrecher

Arne.  Thanks for the unequivocal statement.

 

However, in my humble opinion, the market place is asking for a statement (by word or actions) that says Line 6 intends to compete long term in the live sound reinforcement market.

[Guitarkyller]

We are making and supporting StageScape M20d and StageSource speakers. This is official :)

 

We had a shortage due to production which is resolved now.

 

Thank you,

 

Arne Wallbrecher

 

That's GREAT news for us folks who have gone FRFR-Dream-riggin' ! The M20d and 2@Lt3's,L6link, a XD-V55 and a JTV 59 w/HD500X,  makes for a sizable investment on my part.

 

Good to hear your STILL gonna do your part..... ;)

 

                                                                    Still Kylling It

[Guitarkyller]

I ordered an M20D through Sweetwater (still waiting for it to be shipped) but have since read numerous posts and am worried by what appears to be the lack of support from Line 6 regarding updates, etc. I placed my order nearly 2 months ago and am still waiting for Sweetwater to receive inventory. Should i cancel my order and go with another board such as the Studiolive, Touchmix or x32 or will it be worth it for me to stay patient?

 

I use and recommend the M20d. It works well as part of my FRFR set-up. No problems, done everything I've needed so far.

Make sure and ask for extra candy from Sweetwater for having to wait so long........... :)

 

                                                                   Kylling It

[maxnew40]

We found some L3s and L3s for sale. However a sales rep told us that the L3 speakers were most likely repaired speakers that were sent back from dealers for the fan repair. It still seems that no one has the M20D in stock yet.

 

-Max

[slammy69]

I just got mine yesterday. I had been eyeing this board for some time...but it was priced too high, imo.

 

With the $1300 price drop, I jumped on it.

 

Took me about 30-45 mins to setup the stage, and get comfortable with moving around the menus. Love it!

 

The only thing I'm bummed about, is the shape and size (too small) doesn't fit properly in my old standard mixer stand.

 

Is there a stand out there that will hold this board snug?

 

Thanks!

[IrishJack]

Slammy,

 

I use the On-Stage Stands MIX400 mixer stand.  IMHO, it works quite well with the M20D.  If you haven't done so already, I would also recommend that you pick up the dust cover (or "Guinness Guard", as we refer to it in our Irish band) for the mixer.

[ColonelForbin]

Slammy,

 

I use the On-Stage Stands MIX400 mixer stand.  IMHO, it works quite well with the M20D.  If you haven't done so already, I would also recommend that you pick up the dust cover (or "Guinness Guard", as we refer to it in our Irish band) for the mixer.

 

Yes, and yes - to both the mixer stand, and the 'Guinness Guard' plastic cover!

[slammy69]

Thanks guys!

 

Sux when you have a perfectly good Quik-Lok mixer stand, and can't use it with a new board. lol!

[slammy69]

I also purchased a samsung USB wireless dongle...the one in the manual that is listed as compatible. Here's to hoping I don't have any issues connecting to my ipad. Don't want to have to buy a router too.