Last Weekend's Experience Contradicts Things I've Been Reading Here

[erniedenov]

First off, it's not my intent to offend anyone; I have much respect and appreciation for the knowledge and experienced advice you guys offer here and I just couldn't come up with a better thread title.

 

With that out of the way, I had a somewhat shocking thing happen at last Friday's gig with my Helix that I'd like to share. I play with two cover bands on a pretty consistent basis. One is a wedding/corporate event band that plays locally and the other one tours and plays mostly events for the US military; USO shows and fund raising events. In both bands, we use in-ear monitors, but in the wedding band, I go from multi-effects/preamp unit (formerly Pod HD500, currently Helix) direct to FOH. In the touring band, I'm provided a rented Mesa/Boogie Triple Rectifier half stack and I use my Line 6 M13 with it. The wedding band plays small to medium size ballrooms and the touring band plays larger venues (often outdoors) on relatively sizeable stages with a bigger PA.

 

Anyway, on Friday night, I used my Helix and went ampless with the touring band for the first time. I should preface this by mentioning that with the wedding band I'm using patches that I programmed with my in-ears through the headphone jack. I don't know what it sounds like through the FOH, but it sounds great in my in-ears. That band uses a smallish PA, doesn't play all that loud and the soundman hasn't complained about my EQ, so I've just been assuming it sounds fine. But...

 

With the touring band, I figured I'd better use the different set of patches that I made using my FRFR powered speaker, tweaked at window rattling volume in my home. I never used any hi or low cuts with my headphone jack patches, but I had to use them fairly extensively with the ones I made with the powered speaker. So at soundcheck for the touring band's gig, I sent the Helix direct to FOH using XLRs (stereo for the first time!) into line inputs on the board. I could tell our FOH soundman wasn't digging my sounds at first, though he wouldn't actually come out and say they sucked (he's that rare combination of a good sound engineer and a nice, accommodating guy). After a few minutes, I was able to stand out in the audience's area in front of the PA (since my guitar is wireless in that band) and my tones did indeed suck! They were thin, dull and lifeless. At that point, I told him to wait a minute and I pulled up my setlist of headphone jack-built patches... and he said, "ah... now THAT sounds like YOU!" WHAT?!!!

 

I don't get it. Why were those patches the ones that worked? I've been mulling it over in my brain, trying to consider the physics of the Fletcher Munson Curve. I do make the headphone jack patches at a reasonably high volume, which obviously makes a difference in perceived frequencies. Is that an adequate way to tweak after all? I'm curious to hear your thoughts, fellow Helix users!

[HonestOpinion]

First off, it's not my intent to offend anyone; I have much respect and appreciation for the knowledge and experienced advice you guys offer here and I just couldn't come up with a better thread title.

 

With that out of the way, I had a somewhat shocking thing happen at last Friday's gig with my Helix that I'd like to share. I play with two cover bands on a pretty consistent basis. One is a wedding/corporate event band that plays locally and the other one tours and plays mostly events for the US military; USO shows and fund raising events. In both bands, we use in-ear monitors, but in the wedding band, I go from multi-effects/preamp unit (formerly Pod HD500, currently Helix) direct to FOH. In the touring band, I'm provided a rented Mesa/Boogie Triple Rectifier half stack and I use my Line 6 M13 with it. The wedding band plays small to medium size ballrooms and the touring band plays larger venues (often outdoors) on relatively sizeable stages with a bigger PA.

 

Anyway, on Friday night, I used my Helix and went ampless with the touring band for the first time. I should preface this by mentioning that with the wedding band I'm using patches that I programmed with my in-ears through the headphone jack. I don't know what it sounds like through the FOH, but it sounds great in my in-ears. That band uses a smallish PA, doesn't play all that loud and the soundman hasn't complained about my EQ, so I've just been assuming it sounds fine. But...

 

With the touring band, I figured I'd better use the different set of patches that I made using my FRFR powered speaker, tweaked at window rattling volume in my home. I never used any hi or low cuts with my headphone jack patches, but I had to use them fairly extensively with the ones I made with the powered speaker. So at soundcheck for the touring band's gig, I sent the Helix direct to FOH using XLRs (stereo for the first time!) into line inputs on the board. I could tell our FOH soundman wasn't digging my sounds at first, though he wouldn't actually come out and say they sucked (he's that rare combination of a good sound engineer and a nice, accommodating guy). After a few minutes, I was able to stand out in the audience's area in front of the PA (since my guitar is wireless in that band) and my tones did indeed suck! They were thin, dull and lifeless. At that point, I told him to wait a minute and I pulled up my setlist of headphone jack-built patches... and he said, "ah... now THAT sounds like YOU!" WHAT?!!!

 

I don't get it. Why were those patches the ones that worked? I've been mulling it over in my brain, trying to consider the physics of the Fletcher Munson Curve. I do make the headphone jack patches at a reasonably high volume, which obviously makes a difference in perceived frequencies. Is that an adequate way to tweak after all? I'm curious to hear your thoughts, fellow Helix users!

 

It sounds like your method pre-gig for designing your presets was correct. The only thing that occurs to me initially is that for whatever reason, the speakers you used to design your presets were significantly different enough from your PA at volume, such that they did not represent an accurate predictor of the PA (FOH) sound. Ironically and counter intuitively, just by chance, your presets designed with headphones were easier for the PA to handle. Go figure. You may need to figure out why the monitors you are using for preset design are sounding so different from your mixer and PA and account for the difference.  You may also want to check basic configuration issues like your outputs setings (mic or line) going out to the PA, global EQ settings, etc..

[gunpointmetal]

Was the sound guy running your channels flat, or had he "pre-eq'ed" to what he's used to with you using an amp?

[WickedFinger]

I have both a pair of EV 15's FRFR and a custom loaded stereo wired 4x12 w Eminence Man O War guitar speakers. Personally I am a live sound guy could not give a flip what is used to make recordings EQ, and compress into a mix. Just not my thing, recoding is all fine and good but been there done that with hundreds of hours of stuff NO one is ever going to listen to, including me. 

I like that 4x12 and I am plumbed to run both but I prefer what the Eminence are doing.

By the time you get done cutting the EQ down to suit on an FRFR system one wonders why one needs the extended range when nothing occupies that space. Sub sonics are a terrible thing and ultra high shrill top end. These Eminence speakers run frequency range of 80Hz to 5kHz before inducing roll off. Many times recording mavens cut their cabs and what not way more than than and run it into an FRFR rig. Not that the FRFR sounds bad but the poo poo on higher end guitar speakers is badly placed. 

A good recipe for getting a bad live sound is following what recording cats do. Things change from headphones to live sound rigs, just a fact of physics. You can never tweak in right unless you sound check the real rig. Every room is different and if the sound guy does not know to properly master EQ a room using pink noise and a Spectrum Analyzer, then he is just one of those do by ear cats which is about like pretending science is hoax. What killed your sound is the difference in speakers, environment, and placement no doubt. Personally I hate headphones and I use some higher end Byerdynamics, does OK but not like my live rig, once that air starts moving and reacting everything has to be tweaked. 

[silverhead]

The room acoustics can also play a big role. I think the sound from the FRFR speaker in a small room in your home, bouncing off the walls, is quite different from the sound of the PA speaker in the much larger gig venue with less reflection.

[DunedinDragon]

The only thing that occurs to me here is the type of FRFR speaker you were using for building the patches, and the volume you built them at.  Fletcher-Munson doesn't mean you need to tweak things are window shattering volumes.  100db is more than adequate to get the feel for how the patches will sound live, so that may have had some weird affect on how you set up your EQ in the patches.

 

The only other thing that occurs to me might possibly be the PA.  Older big passive speaker style PA's run off of a centralized main amp would likely have a very different frequency response profile than more modern FRFR style PA speakers.

 

What's confusing to me in this situation is how the patches would come out sounding thin, dull and lifeless.  If anything in either of the two cases above, they should have been more "boomy".  Of course thin can mean different things to different people.  To some being mid-heavy would be considered thin, which would be the case if you cut too much off of the low end.

 

What type of FRFR speaker did you build the patches on, and what type of PA speakers were they using? Also what type of amp models and cabs were you using on your patches.

 

This is quite mysterious......

[Joepeggio]

I agree with silverhead. I find using my ts110a's at "gig" volume in my house sounds huge. Hooking up to our pa i find the thin brittle sound.

 

I think the headphone are the way to go. The sound person can alway low cut you as needed.

[cruisinon2]

Just to play Devil's advocate for a minute...and it probably isn't what happened, but since it seems you experienced the opposite of what was expected, is it possible that it's just something as goofy as having pulled up the wrong set of patches the first time? A good old fashioned "DUUUUUHHHHH" moment? We all have'em...

[jpdennis]

... After a few minutes, I was able to stand out in the audience's area in front of the PA (since my guitar is wireless in that band) and my tones did indeed suck! They were thin, dull and lifeless. At that point, I told him to wait a minute and I pulled up my setlist of headphone jack-built patches... and he said, "ah... now THAT sounds like YOU!" WHAT?!!!

 

I don't get it. Why were those patches the ones that worked? I've been mulling it over in my brain, trying to consider the physics of the Fletcher Munson Curve. I do make the headphone jack patches at a reasonably high volume, which obviously makes a difference in perceived frequencies. Is that an adequate way to tweak after all? I'm curious to hear your thoughts, fellow Helix users!

 

I play in a cover band, I still do some session work, and I work with worship teams.

 

The issue with what type of headphones versus what type of speakers has been discussed since I have joined the group of Helix owners.  All I can say is I had a similar experience.  I am using an expensive 250 ohm open back set of headphones only because I tried the under $200.00 route and it didn't work for me.  Three weeks ago my sound-man said to take home his powered monitor because I was thinking I could get a better mix if I heard myself through a relatively "Live" environment (using the looper and all).  When we next performed and I too stepped onto the dance floor to hear ... No bueno!  Quickly switched to my Headphone created set list.  It was much better.  And then Sunday during worship at my church I used the newly "headphone created" patches I've discussed in another thread and the tone was amazing from the playback I heard.

 

The worship team has dedicated sound engineers.  The cover band sound man is also the other guitarist and he is training someone to bring up and turn down volume out front.  So it may not be all headphone versus "live" speaker for setting tone, but that is my experience.  Last session work was with my FloorPod Plus in February so can't speak to the Helix yet in that arena.

 

Dennis

[HonestOpinion]

I am not for a minute doubting that both of the users in this thread are reporting accurately that they got a better sound from their "headphone" presets. I do however think that it is anecdotal. I am not sure what factors caused headphone presets to sound better than those created on a PA monitor but in the vast majority of user experiences I suspect this will not be the case. Maybe there was a strange mix on the board, or as Silverhead mentioned there were influential room acoustics, or a difference in the volume that the presets were created at on the monitors, a significant difference between the powered monitor and the sound generated by the full PA, or any of a number of other mitigating factors.  In general I don't recommend headphones as an ideal reference for designing presets for FOH use. It just stands to reason that all other things being equal (assuming the soundman does not do something freaky with the board, or the room acoustics do not impose too much influence),  the more similar in design the speakers you use to design your presets are to your PA, and the nearer you are to live volume when you tweak them, the better you will be able to anticipate what is going to be heard in the FOH.

 

This could also be sheer coincidence. If for instance your headphone designed presets are much brighter than the ones you designed with your monitors and you play a "soft" room that absorbs a lot of high end, the presets designed with the headphones may sound crisper and better.

 

Assuming relatively flat EQ settings on your mixer and a competent soundman,  if your headphones are consistently a better predictor and design tool for presets than a monitor that is the same or similar to your PA and you are also consistently not getting a good sound when you play live in a variety of rooms, chances are the room you are using to create your presets has bad acoustics for that task or that you are not at or near the volume you are playing at in performance.

 

But hey, if you regularly find that for some arcane reason that the presets you design on your headphones dependably provide the best sound out of your particular PA by all means I would use them.

[DunedinDragon]

You know this may simply come down to the way one uses FRFR speakers for building patches.  I'll be the first to admit that getting used to dialing in presets with an FRFR speaker isn't initially intuitive.  You can easily be deceived when standing in close proximity to the speaker due to the way these speakers are designed to project sound, especially when compared to a room sound you get from those same speakers.  I know I have to take great care in moving about the room a bit when I'm dialing in a patch to get a realistic feel for how it's going to sound through the live environment, because it can change things pretty dramatically.

 

Whatever is the case, if you find what works for you..that's what you stick with.

[erniedenov]

Lots of interesting comments, as I expected; thanks for the replies!

 

Okay, this is not Helix related and I feel dumb even asking, but I think I have to at this point. How do you use "quote" and "multiquote" here? In the other two discussion sites I frequent, you just click "quote" and the quote instantly comes up on your reply post, but it apparently doesn't work that way here. It's going to be much more convenient to discuss things with you all when I know how to use that feature. And... thanks in advance! 

[strabes]

Lots of interesting comments, as I expected; thanks for the replies!

 

Okay, this is not Helix related and I feel dumb even asking, but I think I have to at this point. How do you use "quote" and "multiquote" here? In the other two discussion sites I frequent, you just click "quote" and the quote instantly comes up on your reply post, but it apparently doesn't work that way here. It's going to be much more convenient to discuss things with you all when I know how to use that feature. And... thanks in advance! 

 

For me when I hit "quote" it jumps to the reply box and puts the message in there automatically. When I hit "multi quote" a box pops up on the bottom right, then I can quote a bunch of messages at once. 

 

Anyway, there are literally hundreds of variables here that could be the culprit. It's impossible to get a perfect tone with a modeler or traditional tube amp and mic rig that will sound exactly like you want in any room. When I make patches from scratch I alternate between my IEMs that I use live, an FRFR I have at home, and a venue I play a lot whose PA and engineer I trust. My tones sound awesome in that venue's PA and other well-tuned venues. Two weeks ago I played a not-so-great 3-400 person venue and it sounded like absolute mud through the PA. IEMs sounded normal though. 

 

It's a bummer but I just kinda get through it when the venue is less than optimal. Always a good feeling when you walk into a room and see a midas pro console... you know they care and that the room is going to be good. 

[erniedenov]

You may need to figure out why the monitors you are using for preset design are sounding so different from your mixer and PA and account for the difference.  You may also want to check basic configuration issues like your outputs setings (mic or line) going out to the PA, global EQ settings, etc..

 

It dawns on me that there's not a lot of hope that one FRFR powered speaker with one 12" speaker and a tweeter is going to be anywhere in the ballpark of a PA with a dozen or more enclosed speaker cabs, regardless of flat response.

Was the sound guy running your channels flat, or had he "pre-eq'ed" to what he's used to with you using an amp?

 

I honestly don't know for sure. I'll have to ask him. But we're not a band that travels with a semi full of gear; most of it is rented; definitely the PA is. I'm sure specific gear is listed on the rider, but that's no guarantee that you're always going to get what you ask for.

By the time you get done cutting the EQ down to suit on an FRFR system one wonders why one needs the extended range when nothing occupies that space. 

Great point! 

 

The room acoustics can also play a big role. I think the sound from the FRFR speaker in a small room in your home, bouncing off the walls, is quite different from the sound of the PA speaker in the much larger gig venue with less reflection.

 

True that! And nothing I can do about it besides trust in the competency of the soundman. Sometimes we play in horrible sounding venues like airplane hangars. I used to hate playing outdoors, but because of situations like that, I've grown to appreciate it.

The only thing that occurs to me here is the type of FRFR speaker you were using for building the patches, and the volume you built them at.  Fletcher-Munson doesn't mean you need to tweak things are window shattering volumes.  100db is more than adequate to get the feel for how the patches will sound live, so that may have had some weird affect on how you set up your EQ in the patches.

 

The only other thing that occurs to me might possibly be the PA.  Older big passive speaker style PA's run off of a centralized main amp would likely have a very different frequency response profile than more modern FRFR style PA speakers.

 

What's confusing to me in this situation is how the patches would come out sounding thin, dull and lifeless.  If anything in either of the two cases above, they should have been more "boomy".  Of course thin can mean different things to different people.  To some being mid-heavy would be considered thin, which would be the case if you cut too much off of the low end.

 

What type of FRFR speaker did you build the patches on, and what type of PA speakers were they using? Also what type of amp models and cabs were you using on your patches.

I didn't tweak THAT loud at home; I doubt it was even 100 dB. It's not hard to rattle the windows in my living room.

 

The powered speaker I have is an Alto Truesonic TS 212. I've not had the opportunity to audition anything else. It got a lot of good reviews and most importantly, it was in my price range. When I first heard my headphone jack-built patches on it, I was shocked at how much bass and treble there was and how much I had to use hi and low cuts. Something seemed wrong; maybe it's just the acoustics in my living room. Perhaps mounting the speaker of a stand would make some difference too. I don't know anything about the PAs that are being used. They say ignorance is bliss and I've been blissfully unaware of so much that goes into putting on these concerts with the touring band. I just know that between all the various logistics, 7 instrumentalists and 5 singers (one occasionally playing acoustic guitar and another occasionally playing violin), over 2 dozen wireless systems, 5 crew members, etc. it's a lot!

 

Amp and cab models? Oy! I was mostly using a Matchless for clean or semi-dirt, Dual Recto for crunch/power chord/riffing and the Marshall JCM 800 with the Klon model in front for leads. Sometimes I use "amp + cab," but I tend to use the Boogie 4x12 cab with different amps at times. It's what I'm used to and the model is at least close, if no cigar. I have yet to get any second party IRs, but probably will at some point.

 

Just to play Devil's advocate for a minute...and it probably isn't what happened, but since it seems you experienced the opposite of what was expected, is it possible that it's just something as goofy as having pulled up the wrong set of patches the first time? A good old fashioned "DUUUUUHHHHH" moment? We all have'em...

 

I'm no stranger to "DUH moments," but this wasn't one of them. I have my headphone and powered speaker patches in separate (appropriately labeled) setlists. And I'm so glad that firmware 2.00 gave us the ability to name setlists!

I play in a cover band, I still do some session work, and I work with worship teams.

 

The issue with what type of headphones versus what type of speakers has been discussed since I have joined the group of Helix owners.  All I can say is I had a similar experience.  I am using an expensive 250 ohm open back set of headphones only because I tried the under $200.00 route and it didn't work for me.  Three weeks ago my sound-man said to take home his powered monitor because I was thinking I could get a better mix if I heard myself through a relatively "Live" environment (using the looper and all).  When we next performed and I too stepped onto the dance floor to hear ... No bueno!  Quickly switched to my Headphone created set list.  It was much better.  And then Sunday during worship at my church I used the newly "headphone created" patches I've discussed in another thread and the tone was amazing from the playback I heard.

 

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one; I don't feel so lonely now!

 

Anyway, just as it is with being a musician in general, it's a learning process. The more you know, the more you find that you don't know. I still consider myself a Helix newbie and I'll get it sorted out eventually, especially with the help of you guys! Thanks so much for the responses; I do appreciate them!

[Meiannatee]

More possible reasons:

1) You could be putting more dB's into your ears with your home FRFR speakers than the venue itself. Remember that SPL at the ear depends on: source SPL, proximity, room, directionality. Your room is much smaller, you're much closer to the speakers.

 

Loudness perception also works the other way, i.e. if your patch creation level is higher than the venue. (The need to do many more low & high cuts is a sign.)

 

If your soundguy will not be giving the audience window-shattering SPL, you don't need window-shattering SPL to dial in patches.

 

2) FRFR speakers are only FRFR at a certain range of SPL. You may have gone beyond that range. Some are also quite directional. Just a little off axis and the freq response is different.

 

3) Assuming your headphones are flat studio monitors, they could also be removing the room effect from the sound. Helps if your room is untreated