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shawnt113

Standalone Helix Pitch Shift/guitar Detune Pedal

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I also posted this in the stomp section but thought I would post here also. 

 

I think it would be awesome for L6 to make a pedal to rival the EHX Pitchfork, Digitech drop etc... I already use the pitch shifter in the Helix LT to detune my guitar up or down 1/2 step. Its  not perfect, it can be a bit artifacty but its not horrible, and gets me through in a pinch. I hear the digitech drop is about the best for this but I need to ne able to go up or down by 1/2 step increments so I tried the EHX Pitchfork. Its ok but adds  a weird resonance to the tone like the resonator on my old variax 300. As well as the Helix does I'd think a dedicated pedal could probably nail it. 

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The problem is, there's already a Pitchfork, Drop, Whammy, and TC Quintessence. And (until 3.0 arrives) Line6's poly performance doesn't yet compete.  Also, Line6 has a strong brand in multi FX, not single pedals, where they'd have a lot of market inertia to overcome. So why enter a niche market and a crowded field in those conditions? Sounds like a bad business decision to me, to say the least.

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Polyphonic pitch detection is coming in the next firmware update. That is the secret to better "DROP" options. How well it does is yet to be seen (heard)... but be patient, they are working on it for the Helix platform. 

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The new polyphonic stuff will be in the same league as those pedals (yes, I’ve tried it). The main issue is that the polyphonic effects are going to be DSP hogs. So if you have existing presets that you want to use them in, and those presets are already near the DSP limit, you many find you can’t fit them in without getting rid of stuff. But they are coming in 3.0.

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9 minutes ago, phil_m said:

The new polyphonic stuff will be in the same league as those pedals (yes, I’ve tried it). The main issue is that the polyphonic effects are going to be DSP hogs. So if you have existing presets that you want to use them in, and those presets are already near the DSP limit, you many find you can’t fit them in without getting rid of stuff. But they are coming in 3.0.

DSP hogging is the reason I’d like a stand-alone pedal. But I am excited about the prospect. I wouldn’t even worry about it if Digitech made a pedal that could go up or down 1/2 and whole steps. The Pitchfork does it but like I had said it ads this weird “thing” to the tone, almost like a metallic 10ms reverb, but kinda akin to the old Variax Resonator or Banjo sounds. It’s hard to explain.

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58 minutes ago, shawnt113 said:

DSP hogging is the reason I’d like a stand-alone pedal. But I am excited about the prospect. I wouldn’t even worry about it if Digitech made a pedal that could go up or down 1/2 and whole steps. The Pitchfork does it but like I had said it ads this weird “thing” to the tone, almost like a metallic 10ms reverb, but kinda akin to the old Variax Resonator or Banjo sounds. It’s hard to explain.

 

This is a bit confusing... what you're asking for already exists. What difference does it make who's name is on the front ? If you don't like the Pitchfork's performance, get the Digitech Drop then... I've had one for years, and it works great. There's no weird artifacts that I can discern... and I'm just as picky about that stuff as the next guy.

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2 hours ago, shawnt113 said:

DSP hogging is the reason I’d like a stand-alone pedal. But I am excited about the prospect. I wouldn’t even worry about it if Digitech made a pedal that could go up or down 1/2 and whole steps. The Pitchfork does it but like I had said it ads this weird “thing” to the tone, almost like a metallic 10ms reverb, but kinda akin to the old Variax Resonator or Banjo sounds. It’s hard to explain.

 

The Whammy DT will do this, but it takes up a ton of space.

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3 hours ago, phil_m said:

The new polyphonic stuff will be in the same league as those pedals (yes, I’ve tried it). The main issue is that the polyphonic effects are going to be DSP hogs. So if you have existing presets that you want to use them in, and those presets are already near the DSP limit, you many find you can’t fit them in without getting rid of stuff. But they are coming in 3.0.

 

2 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

This is a bit confusing... what you're asking for already exists. What difference does it make who's name is on the front ? If you don't like the Pitchfork's performance, get the Digitech Drop then... I've had one for years, and it works great. There's no weird artifacts that I can discern... and I'm just as picky about that stuff as the next guy.


The name on it doesn’t matter. I had said further up that the reason I didn’t go with the Drop is because I need to be able to go up as well as down, and to my knowledge you cannot do 1/2 steps with the Drop. While the full step would also come in handy I think the inability to do 1/2 steps is the deal breaker.

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1 hour ago, shawnt113 said:

 


The name on it doesn’t matter. I had said further up that the reason I didn’t go with the Drop is because I need to be able to go up as well as down, and to my knowledge you cannot do 1/2 steps with the Drop. While the full step would also come in handy I think the inability to do 1/2 steps is the deal breaker.


The Drop does do half steps. Each of the 7 number LEDs represent a semitone beneath the reference pitch.  So you can go down to a fifth below and then it jumps to an octave down. I could how looking at it, though, you’d assume that those were whole steps.

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6 minutes ago, phil_m said:


The Drop does do half steps. Each of the 7 number LEDs represent a semitone beneath the reference pitch.  So you can go down to a fifth below and then it jumps to an octave down. I could how looking at it, though, you’d assume that those were whole steps.

You’re right. It’s the inability to go up that also turned me off.

 

The Ricochet is the pedal that won’t do 1/2 steps but will go up or down (polyphonically ai believe).

 

The Whammy DT will do both but damn it’s pricey (if you don’t need the whammy) and the worse part it’s big . I wish it was in the standard Whammy footprint. 

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, shawnt113 said:

I also posted this in the stomp section but thought I would post here also. 

 

. I hear the digitech drop is about the best for this but I need to ne able to go up or down by 1/2 step increments so I tried the EHX Pitchfork. 

 

The Drop goes in half step increments.  I use that and a POG with my Helix

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4 hours ago, shawnt113 said:

The Whammy DT will do both but damn it’s pricey (if you don’t need the whammy) and the worse part it’s big . I wish it was in the standard Whammy footprint. 

 

 

 

The version 5 whammy will do what you want in a standard whammy size. Its drop function isn't as easy to use and you can't drop AND whammy at once (can you do that on the Whammy DT?), but it drops, and raises, in half steps.

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20 hours ago, phil_m said:

The new polyphonic stuff will be in the same league as those pedals (yes, I’ve tried it). The main issue is that the polyphonic effects are going to be DSP hogs. So if you have existing presets that you want to use them in, and those presets are already near the DSP limit, you many find you can’t fit them in without getting rid of stuff. But they are coming in 3.0.

What kind of DSP usage are we talking about. Is it double simple pitch or pitch whammy?

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25 minutes ago, karlic said:

What kind of DSP usage are we talking about. Is it double simple pitch or pitch whammy?


Well, I would imagine that poly pitch shifting is going to be a hungry beast.
 

For example, many folks on here ask why the Helix reverbs are not as polished and/or complex as those in the Strymon Big Sky box? That’s because to create those sounds it takes the same amount of DSP as a single one of the 2 chips in the Helix.
 

If it comes to the choice of losing half of the Helix to a single reverb effect, or plugging an external unit int the stereo FX loop, then I would buy a unit dedicated to doing that one job alone.

 

Because so many users have requested poly pitch to be added, it seems like it is about to happen, but at what cost in DSP remains to be seen. Hope it doesn’t push some things over the edge, but whatever happens it must be a trade off against other FX.

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32 minutes ago, datacommando said:


Well, I would imagine that poly pitch shifting is going to be a hungry beast.
 

For example, many folks on here ask why the Helix reverbs are not as polished and/or complex as those in the Strymon Big Sky box? That’s because to create those sounds it takes the same amount of DSP as a single one of the 2 chips in the Helix.
 

If it comes to the choice of losing half of the Helix to a single reverb effect, or plugging an external unit int the stereo FX loop, then I would buy a unit dedicated to doing that one job alone.

 

Because so many users have requested poly pitch to be added, it seems like it is about to happen, but at what cost in DSP remains to be seen. Hope it doesn’t push some things over the edge, but whatever happens it must be a trade off against other FX.

I would use it for rhythm sounds with just and amp and IR, so probable fine. Simple pitch works well for monophonic solo sounds with more effects.

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3 hours ago, datacommando said:


Well, I would imagine that poly pitch shifting is going to be a hungry beast.
 

For example, many folks on here ask why the Helix reverbs are not as polished and/or complex as those in the Strymon Big Sky box? That’s because to create those sounds it takes the same amount of DSP as a single one of the 2 chips in the Helix.
 

If it comes to the choice of losing half of the Helix to a single reverb effect, or plugging an external unit int the stereo FX loop, then I would buy a unit dedicated to doing that one job alone.

 

Because so many users have requested poly pitch to be added, it seems like it is about to happen, but at what cost in DSP remains to be seen. Hope it doesn’t push some things over the edge, but whatever happens it must be a trade off against other FX.

 

Exactly...I'm curious how much will have have to be sacrificed to use polyphonic pitch shifting with my existing patches. There's a limit to how much re-engineering I'm willing to do just to drop a half step here and there. Also interested to see what sort of latency it produces, if any. The Drop is a nice pedal, but it does have a slight latency, albeit small and manageable... if the Helix improves on that substantially, then I might change my tune, so to speak. ;)

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Well that IS the name of the game there right? :)

 

But seriously DSP is exactly why I am looking for an external solution. 

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5 hours ago, karlic said:

What kind of DSP usage are we talking about. Is it double simple pitch or pitch whammy?


Over 40% of the DSP available on one processor path.

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Well, there you have it guys, over 40% of the juice on a single path.
 

As someone once said,  “You really should be careful what you wish for.”

 

Stand by for more bellyaching and gripes.

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17 hours ago, phil_m said:


Over 40% of the DSP available on one processor path.

That seems quite reasonable for the level of processing going on here. It is a lot different from monophonic pitch shifting if done well.

 

Do you know if the old pitch effects will still be available for when processing power is limited?

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18 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

Also interested to see what sort of latency it produces, if any. The Drop is a nice pedal, but it does have a slight latency, albeit small and manageable... if the Helix improves on that substantially, then I might change my tune, so to speak. ;)

Kemper made a really nice sounding transpose, that to my ears is more natural than The Drop. It still has very similar latency, although you get used to it in a live situation.

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4 hours ago, karlic said:

Do you know if the old pitch effects will still be available for when processing power is limited?

They won't remove previous effects. We have all those legacy ones, after all.

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On 9/27/2020 at 4:46 AM, karlic said:

Kemper made a really nice sounding transpose, that to my ears is more natural than The Drop. It still has very similar latency, although you get used to it in a live situation.

 

Yeah it's workable... after a few minutes you adjust, and it just kinda "vanishes". How much latency the Helix version will have is more of a curiosity for me than anything else... since most of my patches have two amp models, I suspect that I'll hit the DSP wall without getting rid of other critical stuff... remains to be seen.

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