The ultimate Helix experience?

[adagosto]

In the never ending pursuit of the ultimate Helix experience and guitar tone, I keep coming back to the limitation of the modeler (pretty much all of them). They don't move air pushed by a real power amp with a real speaker.

 

When I play my Helix or ToneX into a Powercab, it sounds pretty awesome. In it's own right, really amazing. But...when I play my real Vox AC30, there's the magic. Problem there is, it's so damn loud!! Plus I can't get my Vox to sound like a Marshall or a Two Rock. Trade offs...

 

Or maybe not. Is the ultimate Helix experience to output the Helix into the Fryette Power Station and then into a real speaker cabinet?

 

Does anyone have experience with this they can share. Is this the ultimate way to get any amp in your room?

[Optimist]

I put my Helix into a Harley Benton GPA-100 Poweramp and then into a Marshall 1960 4x12 Cab. The patches are of course with only preamps and no cabs or IRs. Sounds pretty good and »moves the air«.

[codamedia]

 

 

I have little interest in moving air for my own enjoyment. I like to hear great tone mixed nicely with the others in the band - and let the FOH move the air. Modeling and full range monitoring accomplishes exactly what I enjoy most. 

 

Nothing against the traditional cab approach... it's all good. Just not for me.  

[datacommando]

On 11/3/2023 at 9:12 AM, adagosto said:

Does anyone have experience with this they can share. Is this the ultimate way to get any amp in your room?

Hi,

 

This is the guy who knows - Eric Klein aka Digital lgloo - read this!

 

https://blog.line6.com/2023/09/15/eric-klein-at-least-half-of-your-modelers-sound-is-determined-by-your-playback-system/

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[DunedinDragon]

In a nutshell the "ultimate" Helix experience has a large range of what different people deem as "ultimate".  Many of us that frequent these pages have had our share of different variations, but each have their limitations.  But each limitation may not be that important on an individual basis.

 

For example getting a traditional sound like you would out of a cabinet setup isn't all that important to some of us.  How could that be you might ask?  To put it simply, the only one that hears that particular sound are the people standing in the vacinity of that kind of setup.  That can never be the actual production sound you hear in a live performance or on a professional recording because it has to be captured by a mic, which will change the sound.  Add to that in a sound reinforcement practical sense no stage setup can ever compete volume-wise with a PA, and you wouldn't want it to because it messes up the overall mix the audience hears.

 

That's why many people using modelers target creating a great production sound, the same as would be done in a studio which the Helix is perfectly capable of right out of the box and going direct to the mixing board.  But what a person needs for inspiration as a stage or studio musician actually performing that music may be different, and that's where the configurations can make yet another turn using a stage setup similar to what you're describing, but purely for on stage or in studio performance.  But of course that comes with the limitation that you won't be hearing the same thing as the audience will be hearing including the mix with the other instruments.

 

The thing that's important is that modeling, by it's very nature, changes and expands on the lessons we learned from playing in a traditional setup.  That's why you see so many variations in how people use their Helix.

[rd2rk]

The whole "Modelers don't push air" thing is pure nonsense.

If you HEAR a sound it's because a real speaker - guitar or FRFR - is pushing air.

Also, it's not the MODELER that's pushing the air, it's the the SPEAKER.

Your Vox sounds more authentic to you because you prefer the sound of a tube amp through a guitar speaker and cabinet.

@Optimisthas the right idea.

 

The article by Eric Klein is an excellent explanation. Read it.

[brue58ski]

The ultimate Helix experience would be to be in a large canyon at dusk with enough of a PA to fill the canyon for my sound (should I use reverb or delay or both? (haha)) and a strong subwoofer just for moving the air so I can feel it in my chest...Sigh, it will never happen.

[waymda]

My modelling journey has been long and everything is a compromise.

 

I came from a multi-amp/cab and effects rig and was loud on stage.

 

I moved to modelling and tried:

• SS amps to guitar cabs
• Tube amps to guitar cabs
• Combos
• Wedges
• FRFR PA speakers
• Powercabs
• Various iterations of IEMs

Any use of guitar cabs limited the palette as speakers and cabs are so fundamental.

 

Using tube amps meant I was inherently loud for them to sound good and to hear myself as I want.

 

Cheap IEMs, are just that. Good IEMs are molded, seal well and are expensive and you need to tune whats sent to them to work well.

 

My (current) ideal is a quiet stage, not silent, (good edrums, and bass through wedges to the others) and my guitar and vox (and full mix) in high quality IEMs. I don't miss "moving air" at all and hear a better mix than the audience will.

 

Its a highly portable set-up, easy to set-up, consistent and I'm not fighting to hear what I want/need. And I know what the audience will hear, and can verify it through multi-track playback.

[PierM]

I put a fan in front of my powercabs. Works great.

[codamedia]

On 11/3/2023 at 7:17 AM, datacommando said:

This is the guy who knows - Eric Klein aka Digital lgloo - read this!

 

https://blog.line6.com/2023/09/15/eric-klein-at-least-half-of-your-modelers-sound-is-determined-by-your-playback-system/

 

I read that when it first came out... it's a must read article but I do have one issue with it. 

 

In his section about "P.A Speaker", he is clearly describing "BUDGET P.A Speakers" but forgot to include the word BUDGET. The final delivery of most modelers is via FOH (P.A Speakers) to the audience. When you buy quality for stage use, it is the ultimate of FRFR's not a compromise to one.

[adagosto]

 

On 11/3/2023 at 5:17 AM, datacommando said:

Hi,

 

This is the guy who knows - Eric Klein aka Digital lgloo - read this!

 

Excellent read. Thank you.

 

This is something I really started paying attention to after the 3.5 update. The new cab models produced a massive impact to the overall tone, feel and quality. Then I added a ToneX and using different IR's and cabinet captures was even more profound. 

 

Prior to the 3.5 update, I switched from using my amp speaker (Mesa Boogie at the time) to a Powercab and that also was a massive improvement. 

 

So, if "moving air through watts pushing a speaker" is not the "ultimate" experience, then, you'd have to look deeper at improving the cab models and the speaker. 

 

So then, what devices are out there that can take the cab models and speaker up a level from the existing Line 6 technology?

 

Cab models: Two Notes modeling??

Speaker: Friedman ASC-12? Mission Engineering Gemini2?? OR is the Line 6 Powercab 212 a measurable jump in performance (feel and quality) over the 112+?

 

[rd2rk]

On 11/4/2023 at 11:15 AM, adagosto said:

So then, what devices are out there that can take the cab models and speaker up a level from the existing Line 6 technology?

 

Cab models: Two Notes modeling??

Speaker: Friedman ASC-12? Mission Engineering Gemini2?? OR is the Line 6 Powercab 212 a measurable jump in performance (feel and quality) over the 112+?

 

 

You're asking for objective answers to subjective questions.

The BEST answers you'll ever get on a forum will be no better than anecdotal.

 

I might think my PC212+ sounds GREAT, but lots of people think it sounds like s**t.

The ONLY way to KNOW what's BEST is to try them all side by side and decide which YOU like best.

Not practical you say? Of course not! Welcome to Guitar World 2023!

 

This AM I played for over an hour through my Catalyst100. Sounded GREAT!

Switched to ToneX through the Cat. Sounded AWFUL!

 

Took a break to let my ears readjust, then played for over an hour through my PC212+ and ToneX Amalgam DI captures with various PC speakers.

Sounded GREAT!

Then I switched to playing through Helix presets, alternately with Helix cabs and PC speakers.

Sounded GREAT!

 

My takeaway - any day I play for 2-3 hours is a GREAT day!

 

The moral of the story - Dance with the girl you brought to the party. MOST IMPORTANTLY - "Shut up and play yer guitar!"

 

Final word - there's no such thing as "The Ultimate Helix Experience". Only what YOU like best!

 

Final Final word - I like jelly donuts, but not if they're covered in liquid sugar.

 

"Hope this helps". ;-)

 

[DunedinDragon]

On 11/4/2023 at 1:15 PM, adagosto said:

 

 

 

So then, what devices are out there that can take the cab models and speaker up a level from the existing Line 6 technology?

 

Cab models: Two Notes modeling??

Speaker: Friedman ASC-12? Mission Engineering Gemini2?? OR is the Line 6 Powercab 212 a measurable jump in performance (feel and quality) over the 112+?

 

Any of those type of approaches will give you the live cabinet feel, but only  the powercab would have the ability to modify the cab sound a bit more similar to what's done with the Helix cabs.  The rest will all be static.  However any approach using a physical cabinet will lose that "feel" once it's mic'd and sent to the mixing board.  That's just physics and it applies no matter what your system consists of.

[adagosto]

On 11/4/2023 at 11:59 AM, rd2rk said:

The moral of the story - Dance with the girl you brought to the party. MOST IMPORTANTLY - "Shut up and play yer guitar!"

 

rd2rk, I always LOVE your posts. Seriously always looking for your advice. You have personally helped a lot over the years. I am grateful for your brutal honesty.

[rd2rk]

On 11/4/2023 at 1:28 PM, adagosto said:

 

rd2rk, I always LOVE your posts. Seriously always looking for your advice. You have personally helped a lot over the years. I am grateful for your brutal honesty.

 

Frank Zappa was a wise man!

[datacommando]

On 11/4/2023 at 5:15 PM, adagosto said:

So then, what devices are out there that can take the cab models and speaker up a level from the existing Line 6 technology?

I can only reiterate the comments from both @rd2rk and @DunedinDragon in their posts above. This whole thing is totally dependent on the ears of the person listening.
 

My opinion, or anyone else’s is not really relevant, you are the one doing the listening. You are the one seeking the trouser flapping nirvana of standing in front of a speaker stack, although in that situation I would advise wearing ear protection. Hmm… I wonder how that would change what you are hearing? 
 

I’m a studio rat, and I am more used to hearing what happens to the guitar signal after it has made the very short leap from the speaker cone into the microphone, and after being sculpted a little by other processing before emerging from the studio monitors. That’s when the air starts to vibrate for me. Sound waves are the science of physics, it’s dependent on what you use to start the wave moving, in what sort of environment.

 

Helix is and remains a different “experience” to different users.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[datacommando]

On 11/4/2023 at 8:01 PM, rd2rk said:

 

Frank Zappa was a wise man!

Don’t eat the yellow snow!

[adagosto]

UPDATE:

 

On 11/4/2023 at 11:59 AM, rd2rk said:

The moral of the story - Dance with the girl you brought to the party. MOST IMPORTANTLY - "Shut up and play yer guitar!"

 

Ok so check this out...after reading everyone's comments,I got back to researching how to tweak the Powercab. It just sounded too warm and not-open to me. There were three things that came up:

1. Make sure the input signal is strong enough. Mine was a bit too low.

2. LF Flat and LF RAW seem to have a tendency to be warmer than FRFR, so I switched back to FRFR.

3. Setting up an EQ block after the cab may be necessary.

I did all three. The EQ block was probably the most significant improvement. In my case adding A LOT of high end gain was super effective. I cut the lows back, boosted the mids and really bumped up the highs. Now when I A/B my Vox AC30 with the ToneX capture, they are ridiculously close. Not exactly, but so close...problem solved.

Turns out my date for the dance was pretty hot after all!!

 

[rd2rk]

FRFR is the LF Driver EQ'd FLAT and the HF Driver ON. It's OFF on LF FLAT and LF RAW which is why those settings are less bright.

You apparently like your high frequencies, which seems to be common amongst Voxy people and people with hearing loss from standing in front of Marshall stacks :-)

When I use FRFR I have the HF Driver set to -6db as it adds  "fizz" on the amps I use it with.

[adagosto]

Good to know. 

I'm not sure I like the high frequency thing, more I have just been trying to get my Powercab to match more closely to the real thing. 

See here's why...

If I can learn how to closely match a real amp, then that skill can be used on any other amp. I have not been able to do this until now and because of that I keep looking to different great to "solve" that problem. The power amp plus speaker cabinet or even the Two Note Opus...more variables!

But I'm really happy with what I have going now. I think the EQ block is a requirement.

[mdmayfield]

I used to have a tough time answering this question, but then Jim Lill came out with this amazing video:

 

[adagosto]

On 11/6/2023 at 4:05 AM, mdmayfield said:

I used to have a tough time answering this question, but then Jim Lill came out with this amazing video:

 

I love his videos. One of my favorite ones was his work on tone woods and the impact (or not) they have.

In my case here, my thinking is that if I have a Modeler, I should be able to very closely emulate the real amp (yes in the room). With my Mesa Boogie I was able to get the Helix to exactly match that sound in the room with stunning results. The Vox has been a different story. I've never got it close until now. So I'm not chasing tone...I'm chasing the exact tone of the exact amp in the same exact room. 

I think I'm about 95% of the way there. Close enough where I can call this a success.

[mdmayfield]

I'm glad you're experiencing success. For the remaining 5% by your assessment, I'm afraid you'll find that's a physically impossible ask. It's like trying to DI vocals; that's just not how it works.

 

Consider this: it's possible for a plugin or synth to create a piano tone that, when played through speakers, is indistinguishable from a recording of a real piano played through those same speakers. But a physical acoustic piano sitting in a room doesn't have any speakers at all. The sound is produced through the piano strings and soundboard, which fundamentally behaves differently from speakers. No plugin or synth can overcome the physics of arbitrary playback speakers such that they become indistinguishable from a physical piano soundboard in the room.

 

Even a theoretical 100% truly-perfect amp modeler can't act as just the amp and cab, without a mic or room...and still somehow be able to produce that amp+cab's sound physically in your room, directly to your ears without a mic. There's still a modeled mic, cab, and room - plus whatever playback speakers you're using, and your own physical room.

 

The problem is not one of adding to modeling, but of taking away.

 

So you could model just the preamp and power amp, with no cab/mic emulation, and run that to a physical guitar cab. That would create the amp in the room sound...but it's because you'd be supplying a physical amp+cab...which is not modeling. Kind of like playing a MIDI file through a physically-present, digitally-controlled, robotic acoustic grand piano; it doesn't count as synthesis or sampling, because a real piano soundboard makes the sound.

 

Regardless, my opinion is analogous to Jim Lill's: it doesn't matter. If I can play in a studio on headphones, listening to the sound of a mic picking up a physical amp in a soundproof booth, then I can play through a modeler, which is near enough identical as makes no practical difference.