Do You Have The Same Problem With 6th String?

[psarkissian]

Okay, an old, new tag line,....

"This is not a kitty-cat, it's a big cat, you have to cuddle it under the chin a little differently".  ;)

Came up with that one on my own,... better? :)

 

Yes,... D'Addario 0.010 - 0.046 EXL110 Nickel Wound are the factory strings.

If you decide to go with 11 to 48 gauge, be sure to have the set-up adjusted for that afterwards.

It's less about the brand and more about the gauge of the set.

 

Last time I talked to Line 6's Sean Halley (from the Line 6 demo videos) earlier this year, he

informed me that he was using a string set with 11's for his 89F. He also had the set-up adjusted

for that gauge and tension.

 

I am old enough to be a grand-dad to most of the people in here in support. Anyone old enough to

remember the rock band Iron Butterfly? I used to crew, tech and roadie for them. That's how far back I go.  :)

[snhirsch]

We've talked about that before. They rented a Hammond B3 and two 147 Leslie speakers from my band in 1975 for a concert in Glens Falls, NY. I think you said you were gone by that time. I also think that organ and speaker setup is largely responsible for my chronic back problems in the decades since. You haven't really lived until you carry a B3 up two flights of narrow stairs to a club gig.

[psarkissian]

I started with them in late August or early September of 1975 (left in 1979).

So I've been getting paid to do tech stuff for 40 years this month.

 

Glenn Falls 1975,... yes, I recall we've talked about this before.

[MiroslavKloud]

I'm looking thru a few things and reviewing.

Hang in there.

Any result??

[psarkissian]

Here's an idea,... have the action adjusted up 1/10th-mm and see how it does.

Don't go further the 2/10-mm Total. Since it's the Lo-E and A,... that suggests

that the action on that side might need just a kiss more. It's a JTV-59, with a

higher cut string nut (like a Les Paul), so there's a smidge of play there,...

but just a smidge. So, don't over-stray from that. No more than 2/10-mm

total,... just on that side.

 

Then re-tune it. If it whistles or howls, then check the intonation. Preferably 

done by an authorized tech with the service info access.

[MiroslavKloud]

Excuse me - too complicated text for my English.

Set lower action? 1mm?

I do not think that is possible this problem fix within of adjustment.

Your technicians in Holland this tried very long time.

[cruisinon2]

Here's an idea,... have the action adjusted up 1/10th-mm and see how it does.

Don't go further the 2/10-mm Total. Since it's the Lo-E and A,... that suggests

that the action on that side might need just a kiss more. It's a JTV-59, with a

higher cut string nut (like a Les Paul), so there's a smidge of play there,...

but just a smidge. So, don't over-stray from that. No more than 2/10-mm

total,... just on that side.

 

Then re-tune it. If it whistles or howls, then check the intonation. Preferably

done by an authorized tech with the service info access.

One tenth of a millimeter? My electron microscope is in the shop.

 

The upper range for the diameter of a human hair is 0.18 millimeters. So this problem will be solved by raising the string height by half the diameter of a single hair?

 

Tune in next week folks when we'll show you how to propel a 60 ft. sailboat at speeds of up to 11 knots with a single mouse-fart.

[clay-man]

Nice information. I kind of grew to accept my guitar now. My preference would like the clanging tone on the E string to be less a smidge, but honestly, it's fine. It's only really a problem with using a boost into an amp. Need to take the tone knob down a bit on the boost.

 

I'm loving my Variax again. I might get a Standard as a backup one day.

[psarkissian]

No,... not down.

Adjust up at the Lo-E side bridge post by one-tenth of a millimeter.

If it need more, then do another one-tenth of a millimeter. Do not go

beyond two-tenths of a millimeter in total.

[MiroslavKloud]

I'll try it tomorrow but I am skeptical. 

Do you mean 0.1 mm on a bridge, or a 0.1 mm at 12-fret?

Is screw holding the bridge 5/16 "(18 threads per inch) or 8mm (1.25 mm per thread)?

[cruisinon2]

I'll try it tomorrow but I am skeptical.

 

And with good reason. A 0.1mm change in height (wherever it's measured) is nearly immeasurable, not to mention imperceptible.

[Kwendling]

Anything new? Sweetwater contacted L6 and got the same reply about it being inherent to distorted and over driven patches and mechanical issues. That simply can't be if swapping piezo inputs moves the problem and then the original string sounds fine. That's B.S. I think I'm just going to return it and stay away from L6 for my next guitar.

[psarkissian]

Miroslav: Measure it at Fret-12. Use a 7/64 hex,... I forget what the

metric equivalent is.

 

"That simply can't be if swapping piezo inputs moves the problem

and then the original string sounds fine."----

As I've said before,... each signal line is specific to that string. The

A-string signal line wants to see an A-string on it, and not a low-E string.

 

And before someone says that the processing doesn't know one string

from another,.... yes it does know.

 

"inherent to distorted and over driven patches and mechanical issues"---

I don't have this problem with my four JTV's. Mixing magnetics and piezos is 

different than just magnetics or just piezos. This is a different kind of cat,

got to cuddle it under the chin a little differently.

[MiroslavKloud]

I ask at the thread, not the tool. I have no ability to measure with an accuracy of 0.1 mm. I want to calculate the angle of rotation of the screw.

[psarkissian]

Try a 1/8 anti-clockwise turn at the Low-E bridge post.

If it still distorts and frets, then give it another 1/8 anti-clockwise turn.

No more than that.

[MiroslavKloud]

No audible improvement.

[cruisinon2]

No audible improvement.

Regrettable, but not a surprise.

[onkelfeix]

Hi all, today I had my 89f in the shop where I bought it to check to do some research with the tech guys over there.

Surprisingly playing on their amp , some old small amp, no problems occured.

In Lester1 model and jtv-neck humbucker I couldn't notice a difference at all.

Even in Baritone tuning pinch harmonics sounded the way I think they should have sounded, without audible wavering.

In the first 5-10minutes they tried my guitar alone so maybe they turned some knobs to mask this which I dont think they did .

 

They came up with possible explanations. 

One could be the strings, they suggested usind D'addario NYXL round wound strings that may aid to dampen those noises a bit.

I'm currently using Elixir Nanoweb Light strings(10-46 I think) . I think those strings play in the same league. I'll try them but I honestly don't think they will be a game changer.

 

Another problem could be my setup itself.

Setup1: Guitar with DSP with Rocksmith Realtone Cable (integrated sound card/dsp) into PC.

Setup2: Guitar with DSP into effects pedal (Zoom G2.1u ; set to tuning mode) which is connected via usb. And on my PC through asio driver into Guitar Rig (another DSP) or into a DAW software with BiasFX as VST plugin. So maybe there is just too much processing, filtering and modulation and compressing in the line that I (and maybe others) get such strange audio artifacts. 

As an IT guy I must think of (re-)encoding video files over and over. Let's say take a 1080p60 video from a Blu ray, encode it to 720p30 , reencode this to 1080p60 on a low bit rate and upload the result to YouTube.  The end result won't be pretty any more.

 

Anyway, I insisted on sending the guitar to the nearest L6 techs to check for anything wrong just to be sure.

When it comes back in 2-3 weeks and found to be in a perfect working condition, I will try several setups and keep you informed about any progress. 

 

kind regards

Alex

[MiroslavKloud]

They answer: the guitar is fine!

 

Psarkissian, I want to know if you acknowledge, that our problem is a longitudinal wave?

[psarkissian]

D'Addario NYXL,... interesting.

 

Elixir Nanoweb Light strings(10-46 I think),... Just replaced a JTV-69 neck for someone earlier

today and strung it with Elixir Lights that he supplied. I'll let you know how that comes out.

 

==============

 

In the process of clocking out, I'll mull over the wave question over weekend and get back to

you on that. I wouldn't fixate on any one thing, guitars have multiple ways of generating the

same or similar symptoms, but from very different root causes.

 

Surprised that your damping efforts near the head stock didn't help either. There was one guy

once who over-did the damping and had a host different problems than you. I would think your

damping efforts don't look like it's to that extent yet, so that good. 

 

[MiroslavKloud]

"I wouldn't fixate on any one thing, guitars have multiple ways of generating the same or similar symptoms, but from very different root causes."

 

You look untrustworthy with such statements. :(

 

It would be good if everyone recorded the demo, we can all each other compare. Same sound = the same cause.

[cruisinon2]

I have no ability to measure with an accuracy of 0.1 mm.

Neither does anybody else...well NASA does, I'm sure.

 

And even if you could, it's an infinitesimal change, the feel of which would only be noticeable if you're an android. As for the sound issues you're having, I wouldn't have expected it to make any difference at all, which turned out to be the case, unfortunately. The idea that such a glaring sound artifact will magically disappear because you moved the string height the equivalent of a house fly's nose hair, is ridiculous.

[psarkissian]

Looking at longitudinal waves,... 

I guess tha would depend on the elasticity of the medium. There are a 

number of variabes in the workings of a guitar that would counter L-waves. 

 

Siemic motion of earth quakes, surface acoustic waves (SAW) in microwave

communications, ocean waves, solitons,... those are more likely when you

consider the elasticity and density of the mediums the wave is travelling

through, of the afore mentioned circumstances. L-waves are more in keeping

with the engergy levels requred to generate L-waves. 

 

It's also more in keeping with acoustic violin construction research. Putting

body tops and backs on vibrating tables to look at wave modes. With musical 

instruments, any L-waves would be more in keeping with hollow body. I'll 

need to look deeper into any research with solid body intruments. 

 

From your sound clip, there sounds like a secondary vibration that is getting 

picked up by the piezos and being processed. Whether it's an L-wave or not, 

don't know, they require significant energy.

 

For a guitar, I would need a vibration table to confirm that. Not something

we have in the service department. I'll have to get some else around here for 

that. I know about L-waves in the afore mentioned areas from first hand

experience, part of my studies in college. 

 

Untrustworthy?? My colleagues don't think so. I've been studying waves of all 

kinds for 50+ years. And a number of my colleagues are in AES and IEEE (as 

am I). There are way too many variables to be looking at only one thing. We

need to look at all the vairables and eliminate them as a cause, until the root 

cause s found. 

[MiroslavKloud]

With musical instruments, any L-waves would be more in keeping with hollow body. I'll need to look deeper into any research with solid body intruments.  

 

We do not deal L-waves in the wood or in the air. Thankfully. We have "simpler" problem. L-waves on the string - steel.

But here my sense is in the end. I have not found a link between: frequency (1,6-1,7kHz), speed of sound in steel (5000-6000 m/sec) and length of the string (0,63 m). Maybe it complicates the cores/wrap wire of string and also mechanical properties of the bridge.

 

"Untrusted ..."

Do not be angry, I still feel that your task is not solve this problem, but only production of fog.

[psarkissian]

Not angry,... more like oddly amused. But you would have to

know my history and background to appreciate that comment,...

but it's way too lengthy a history for me to get into here.

 

"Maybe it complicates the cores/wrap wire of string and also mechanical properties of the bridge"---

... wound strings do complicate it. L-wave in a string is basically a Newtonian oscillator bound by

Newtonian/Galilean mechanics and Pythagorean intonation proportions. How they are tied and

tightened at either end will play a role in things as well,... also needs to be considered.

 

There are players out there who have gone to string sets starting with 11-gauge, for the purpose

of getting a certain tone for playing "heavy metal" music. I always tell them to get the set-up adjusted

for the tension change. It seems to do well for them... for that genre of music.

 

If I recall, our own Sean Halley (the guy who does our demos and videos), last I talked to him, strings

his JTV-89F with a set the starts with 11-gauge. And of course the set-up was adjusted for the change

in string tension. 11's on a JTV-59 work fine, doing set-up on a JTV-59 with a set starting 12-gauge

is a bit of a challenge, but I pulled it off okay. Needed an extra day of neck settle-in, but it worked.

 

I have seen this a couple times before, where the wound or "wrap wire" strings were a problem.

They ended up trying different brands of the same gauge until they found the right one for them.

[MiroslavKloud]

I believe that the 11-gauge strings can remedy the problem - it makes sense if the cause is the L-wave. It is not logical, if the cause is elsewhere. But the 11-gauge creates a new problem with my tendons. 10-gauge is the limit for me.

I do not play heavy metal. Rather classic rock and blues sometimes.

I'm stubborn and I want to my guitar (and not only mine) works with any strings.

[cruisinon2]

I believe that the 11-gauge strings can remedy the problem - it makes sense if the cause is the L-wave. It is not logical, if the cause is elsewhere. But the 11-gauge creates a new problem with my tendons. 10-gauge is the limit for me.

I do not play heavy metal. Rather classic rock and blues sometimes.

I'm stubborn and I want to my guitar (and not only mine) works with any strings.

I'm not a metal-head either. Well, not anymore...I'm in recovery ;), and I've been playing 11's for years. There are 10.5 "in-between" sets that I've seen...I believe D'Adarrio makes one. Perhaps you could work your way up to the 11's. Even if you make the jump right away, I think you'll be surprised how quickly you adjust.

[MiroslavKloud]

I have already had problems with tendonitis and could not play for some time. I do not want to risk - just for the reluctance of manufacturer to solve their problem.

[psarkissian]

I know what you mean, got a bum left shoulder and elbow myself,

so I'm careful about guitar playing.

 

Just be careful when the set-up is adjusted. any neck relief has to

be done in increments and let it sit a day or two before making any

further adjustments to neck relief.

 

There's a high profile player who tours a lot with a number of people,

and during the tours didn't give his JTV-59 enough settle in time after

a neck adjustment and not small enough increments of adjustment. It

result in a crack in the finish of the heel joint area. Didn't penetrate the

wood, but the finish had a hairline in it. It's rare, but it has happened.

So be careful when having someone adjusting the set-up after stringing

with 11's.

[pangwin61]

FYI,

 

When I bought my JTV 89f I sent back 2 from Zzounds and 1 from Sweetwater before I finally got one that was just about perfect. All were peizo issues like you describe. I talked to line 6 support and they just said to swap them out. My local line 6 warrantee repair said it would be 3-4 weeks due to it taking a while to receive the parts and it sounded like he didn't even want to deal with it. Anyway I wasn't to keen on having a brand new guitar needing repair. I also have a Jtv 59 that was also my second from Zzounds but the thing is once you get one that works the way it is supposed to they are awesome! It just made me wonder what they are doing at the factory and why these go out like that.

[cruisinon2]

It just made me wonder what they are doing at the factory and why these go out like that.

It's simple...they're playing the odds that the poor slob who ends up with a malfunctioning guitar will either live with its limitations, find some workaround on their own, or cut their losses and dump it on eBay. Any one of those scenarios is far more likely than a protracted battle for a successful warranty repair. Most people simply won't bother because it's too much of a hassle.

 

Mind you, this is the one and only reason that any lemon ever leaves a factory anywhere on earth. Has nothing to do with this particular product.

[psarkissian]

Every guitar I've ever owned (including my four JTV's) I spent time playing it,

getting to know it, then I buy the one that's in my hand. Not the new one out of

the box from the back store room. And I've never had a problem with any of them

beyond the usual maintenance and up-keep. Some I've had for 40-50 years and

they still play great.

 

Lemon has little to do with it. A black box thru mail or online is one thing, getting

a well kept Stradivarius thru mail or online is a coin toss.

 

JTV's go through a final set-up at the main distribution point before they go to the

retailer. And the retailers are all over the country. And the country has different climates

in different places. And climate will eventually have some affect on the set-up.

 

Every guitar that comes across my bench, gets a spec set-up, then I make adjustments

for the climate of the end destination.

 

Better known, high profile players will with their own roadies or crews, and will have a

tech to do set-ups and such on a tour because of that. I know, it's what I used to do.

And not just guitars.

[pangwin61]

Psarkissian,

 

 

I totally understand what you are saying about the climate change but I myself have been playing for 40 years, own multiple guitars and have never had any issues whatsoever like I had with purchasing my JTV's and this includes online purchasing. I also did not have the convenience of playing multiple JTV's and choosing one like I normally do because there is not one dealer here in ct. that stocks JTV's. I also don't have the convenience of having a guitar tech as I have to be that myself as well and last I knew I am not an authorized line 6 repair facility so I would have to pay for parts on a brand new instrument if I decided to keep it. With that said, I did want to keep my first ones but you know what my local authorized repair guy said? "It takes forever for me to get the parts and honestly it takes forever for line 6 to reimburse me for the parts and labor". If you would like his name and number I will provide that to you. So, I was left with no choice but to keep swapping them out. It wasn't until my third when I gave up on zzounds because I discovered they don't go through them before shipping them out. That's when I went with sweet water even though my first with them had an issue. On the second I actually talked to the guitar tech and went over with him what to look for before shipping the next one out. That one was perfect but now 8 months later I have something weird going on where I may have to have it looked at. I'm not sure yet as I am still troubleshooting.

 

I hope what you are not getting at with your response above is that basically us millions of part time professional musicians are basically screwed when ordering these guitars online.

[psarkissian]

No, not getting screwed buying online, but it does add a certain randomness. There

are those who buy online and have never had a problem. And I know that places like

Sweetwater do further checks on these before they let them loose to the public. Just

making sure people are aware. You sound like you're more aware than most. :) 

 

Glad that you got one that suite you. Don't need the name or number of the shop.

Any shop or dealer return in the Americas will eventually come across my bench.

[Charlie_Watt]

I bet that 90% or more JTV owners bought online.  This is mostly because very few dealers stock these guitars and if they do, they have very few to try and they are often not in good condition.  I don't like buying a guitar online and the only ones I have bought that way are my Variax 500 and my JTV 69S.  That being said, I got good ones both times.  I can't find a thing wrong with either one and I have had the 500 for a long time.

[Rocco_Crocco]

psarkiann, have you ever had a Variax in your hands that exhibited the same issue that this thread is dealing with, namely a harsh overtone when palm-muting the low e string?

[psarkissian]

Yes.

And there are a number of reasons for that to occur.

[MiroslavKloud]

Yes.

And there are a number of reasons for that to occur.

 

I have a question, who must explore the reasons and find solutions? Line6 or customers?

 

Response is not necessary.

[psarkissian]

Both.

It requires questions and answers and so on,

until the solution is found.

 

Knowledge abhors a vacuum, and the first step to knowledge is a question. 

[MiroslavKloud]

I wrote a query to L.R.Baggs:

 

http://www.lrbaggs.com/forum/showthread.php?2566-Problem-with-Line6-Variax-please-help&p=5766#post5766