ColonelForbin

Think about it like a cocktail. If you add 8% to your drink, you're gonna notice it!

here's the sequence on my regular pedalboard layout: guitar -> Decimator noise gate (input tracking only)-> wah -> germanium overdrive -> autowah -> compressor ->phaser -> TS9 -> overdrive -> OCD ->buffer / boost with germanium limiter -> amp for what it's worth, the Decimator noise gate function then occurs as the first thing after the amp fx loop send. the first signal that goes through it is for tracking the input only, so it knows how to tell when you are playing or not. amp fx loop -> noise gate ->volume pedal -> chorus -> M9 -> amp fx return I moved the first compressor around a bunch, trying it in various places before and after the overdrives. I tried it in the fx loop of the amp too. It can sound cool to tame one set of distortion, and then feed that compressed signal into a second round of distortion / overdrive. the key with high gain, is the way the noise gate functions. the input tracking tells the noise gate if you are playing or not. If you are not playing, it assumes anything it hears is noise. That's why it needs to happen before the post effects like chorus / delay / reverb. Works really, really well this way - for me. As for how to translate that to programming patches, anybody's guess.. In my board the buffer / clean boost / germanium limiter is a Fullton 2B, runnign on 18v power. More headroom.. It tames the treble response and packages up the the final signal right before it hits the amp, but just a touch. I like to retain dynamics, not too much squash, but no ice pick. Smoooth. Putting the compressor in that spot tended to squash everything too much, and introduce too much noise. Putting the compressor at the beginning of the chain didn't work well with the wah, and it really didn't like being before the autowah or the germanium overdrive. After the autowah helps tame some of the spikes that can occur with more intense autowah settings, combined with the overdrive. I like sandwiching the phaser between overdrives, so I can run overdrive either before or after the phaser - or both. I also sometimes use phasers in the M9 when I want a more swirly 'take over' of the sound. Putting phaser in the pre amplifier spot, especially into a distortion or overdrive tames it nicely.

Will that plugin work with ProTools? http://www.two-notes.com/en/software/torpedo-wall-of-sound-3/

Yeah,good call, Glenn DeLaune has got a great style, he totally rocks!

50! :) Great idea, and totally feasible. The key - at least for my understanding - will be to concern yourself with the Bogner side of the DT - you don't really want to use the Line6 portion of the DT, since it's 'HD' era. I have a theory - which I still need to confirm - that the Mic model as MIDI configured on the DT in 'standalone' mode is what ALWAYS feeds the DT XLR output. If anyone would like to confirm, or refute that, please do! And by ALWAYS, I mean, when you have your HD500 L6Linked to the DT. In that case, the mic model as defined in the HD500 patch does not factor into the signal chain. Since you are in 'combo poweramp' or 'stack poweramp' mode, there is no mic modeling coming from the HD, just the cab modeling is passed through. So, in theory, you should be able to do some pretty interesting things with coordinating the HX amp / preamp models to just the DT power / topology settings - independent from the HD amp / preamp models. I have mentioned this before as well, not getting any 'official' response - you should also be able to disable the DT cab and mic modeling entirely, by using the MIDI to define 'no amp model' on the DT. So when you are L6Linked - I use this now with my HD500x, for JTV acoustic models to bypass all HD preamp processing - you would be sending HX amp/preamp models to the DT, pass them through DT topology / Bogner power amp, but not through HD/DT cab or mic modeling. The XLR *in theory* should still work - which could then be routed back to Helix to run through IR's or HX cab and mic model processing. *IN THEORY* all that makes sense, but I find with my more outlandish routing ideas, that theory and reality often do not agree! :) In fact, in another thread where I was asking someone to give me the "IR 101" for people (like me) who have zero working knowledge of IR's, there was a response indicating this test should be reasonably possible without a Helix, since the bulk of the speculation revolves around how the DT responds in odd circumstances. Something like this should get close: 1.) use DtEdit / MIDI editor to set up a channel on your DT to have no amp model, no cab model, no mic model. 2.) use your HD500/500x,L6 linked to the DT 3.) set up the HD500 with a preamp model, and no cab model 4.) run the XLR out from the DT to a soundcard, and into some type of IR software You can probably easily confirm the speculation that the mic model as defined on the DT in standalone mode is what feeds the DT XLR out - just use a normal patch, linked to the DT. Connect the MIDI to the DT, and using the HD500/x, set up a looper riff, in the 'pre' position (before the amp model). Record the XLR out from the DT. First, tweak the mic model settings in the HD500 patch. Then tweak the mic model settings onboard the DT using the MIDI editor. I believe you will find no change when you tweak the HD mic model, and you will hear changes when you tweak the DT mic model using the MIDI editor.

That's perfect, thanks!! It is making more sense now; gotta give this one a try

http://line6.com/support/topic/13756-boost-on-vs-boost-off-using-dtedit/ DT 25 'standlone' (firmware v2.0) Amp models with "Boost ON" by default: - Gibtone 185 - Tweed Bassman Normal - Tweed Bassman Bright - Divided 9/15 - Phd Motorway - Class A-30 - Brit J-45 Normal - Brit J-45 Bright - Brit Plexi 100 Normal - Brit Plexi 100 Bright - Brit P-75 Normal - Brit P-75 Bright - Brit J-800 - Bomber Uber - Treadplate - Angel F-Ball - Line 6 Elektrik - Line 6 Doom DT 25 'standlone' (firmware v2.0) Amp models with "Boost OFF" by default: - Blackface Double Normal - Blackface Double Vib - Hiway 100 - Super O - Blackface 'Lux Normal - Blackface 'Lux Vib - Class A-15 - Flip Top Bass

Interesting, I hadn't thought about it like that. I wasn't sure how much processing happened when not using the onboard DT preamp. It does seem that since the master volume is defeated when using the FX return input only vs. the guitar input, that something different is occurring. I didn't set out intending to do this, I stumbled upon it! I posted which preamp models have that boost 'on' by default in a previous post. What I am most zoned on is, skipping the DT preamps, while still being able to adjust the power amp / topology settings, for use with the Helix. I still haven't head any official 'yay' or 'nay', about using this no preamp setup, and then routing the XLR out of the DT (with no cab modeling or mic modeling) back to the Helix to run through IR's / Helix cabs / Helix mic models.... It seems feasible, in theory.. In general though, one would guess that since you can adjust the topology and power settings with the DTEDIT midi editor standalone, independent of the preamps, IE, with no preamp defined onboard the DT, that you can probably also figure out what those MIDI commands need to be, from Helix or some other device that can do MIDI commands. I have very little MIDI experience, so I haven't gone down that rabbit hole yet.. I had tried the dual path / mute trick that you mentioned, way back when Radatats first suggested it - same basic idea. Skip the preamp, and just use the power amp. What I wasn't thinking of, was that the input jack, even when skipping the DT preamps, was still going through some sort of DSP or digital / A/D/D/A conversion. In my head, since it skipped the preamp, it skipped the A/D - but since the master does function in that scenario, your observation seem the most likely to be accurate.

That's awesome!!! I love my M20d, the mic pre's on it are stellar.

I just recently upgraded it to the larger pedalboard size, with the power underneath, and added that Voodoo Lab px8 switcher. That thing is great! Puts all the on-off switches in the front row. It also can store three 'presets' which are just preconfigured on or off settings on each loop, it cannot alter the sequence order. It can do MIDI in and out, so it is conceivable that I could control that with HD500 or Helix

Sort of. Try this: using the MIDI editor, set up a channel on a DT to have 'no amp model'. Guess what? The gain and channel volume no do nothing, but ya know what? The master volume still functions just fine, and that master controls the power amp volume. However, what you are saying is likely accurate in the more common scenario with an amp model defined in the DT. I use this trick when Linked to my HD500x when I want the JTV acoustic and reso models to sound good. If you want to test it with the HD, be sure to also define 'no amp model' in your HD patch. It's a worthy topic to revisit with the impending release of the Helix, because the more folks understand how the signal flow of the DT works, the more options they will have to make them play well together. Like, the fact that the DT reverb is applied before the DT fx loop send. OR that there is a 'boost' setting that does impact the volume on the DT25, not just the DT50, and you can switch it on or off for any of the 8 channel / A-1-4, B-1-4 amp configurations. I tend to agree, that the power amp is always going 'full open', because when I set up my DT like this - with no amp model - it's way louder than with the channels that have preamps assigned.

Yes; I also assumed the DT25/50 reverb should be after the FX loop. But I was using the DT25 with my stompbox pedalboard, and I kept hearing the noise gate clipping the reverb tails. Which didn't make sense, since the noise gate was the first thing after the DT25 fx send. I didn't actually do a recording test to verify this, but it appeared that when I turned off the noise gate, the reverb tails were fine. Good point on the HD fx loop! I have no clue where that goes - I am just guessing here, but most likely the HD fx loop happens before anything gets sent to the DT. I think that's why there is the option in the link programming to send only the signal up to and including the amp model, but not the 'wet' post amp model fx. As near as I can understand from my various observations, the HD packages up the entire signal chain, sans power amp modeling, and ports it over to the DT. That audio signal goes to the DT, is then sent through the DT reverb, and the DT fx loop, finally on to the Bogner power amp, along with the code to tell the Bogner which topology to change itself to, and that sound goes to the speaker. Somewhere near the end of that chain, the mic modeling is applied for just the XLR output. I guess an easy way to test it, without having to do the MIDI editing on the DT, is set up the HD500 and DT, linked, and record the XLR out from the DT. In the HD, set up a 'pre' looper phrase, and then while the looper is playing into the amp model, change the mic models on the HD, and then go back and listen to the recording? If my theory is correct, there will be no change in the XLR sound as you toggle between HD mic models.. For what it's worth, here is the 'stompbox' pedalboard I have going, when I need some distractions from the HD500! It plays quite nice with the DT25 actually, which is what led me to doing all this MIDI tweaking in the first place.

Please forgive my ignorance on this! Can someone point me in the right direction for some basic info / reading material / links, so that I can educate myself on IR's?> thanks! http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/The_Working_Guitarist_All_About_Impulse_Responses

Thanks! I try to, there is a lot to discover. I will triple check that and report back on that DT mic to XLR setting - I will need to do something like setup a part with the looper, then make that mic adjustment with the MIDI, while recording the XLR out from the DT. No DT50 for me - I have the pair of DT25 combos, and two extension cabs, and the one DT25 head. Lately I just use the combos + cabs, and have the head as my backup. As I understand it, here is the DT signal path 1.) standalone: guitar -> DT preamp -> DT reverb -> DT fx loop -> DT poweramp -> DT speaker [+ transformer tapped output routed to DT mic model -> DT XLR out] 2.) linked HD500: guitar ->HD500 pre-amp model-fx - > HD500 preamp/amp model -> HD500 'post' amp model FX -> HD500 fx loop -> L6Link-> DT reverb -> DT fx loop -> DT poweramp -> DT speaker [+ transformer tapped output routed to DT mic model -> DT XLR out] I base the assumption that the DT reverb occurs before the DT fx loop because of how my noise gate interacts negatively with it. Will also test that , by recording that 1/4" out, might as well!

Yeah, I had some issues updating my G70. I blame the PC I was on; the internet connection was wireless, and it was using Windows 7. I switched over to my Windows 8 machine, which has hard-wired internet, and the update was flawless. Freaked me out though!! It kept not updating properly, I was worried I was going to brick it before I got to ever use it! But yeah, you have to update both transmitter and receiver to the new firmware..I did a test where I walked upstairs, and it kept signal going, with the rig in my basement. Just beamed through the floors, I guess. Hopefully you can get your's resolved! On a side note to that, BestTronics has upgraded cable / Switchcraft locking assemblies for the G70, they sent me a couple of their prototypes. Right angle, and straight. Nice stuff! The one that comes with it seems fine, but it's always nice to have some backups on hand.. I buy most of my cables from those guys, good stuff. Got all my L6Link cabling from them, my Variax cable, a ton of XLR's, and 1/4" cables for my pedalboard to amp, and fx loop send/return cabling. Top notch quality from Tinley Park, IL! :)

Also take note of another little setting in that MIDI editor / DT standalone configuration. There is a boost setting, that while the software shows is only for DT50, actually does impact the volume / tone of the DT25 as well. Most of the amp models in their 'default' state, have that boost set to 'on'. You will see those settings (one for 'A' and one for 'B') in this screenshot, they are over in those control panels on the right side, in the sections titled 'poweramp A' and 'poweramp B'. Which is slightly confusing, quite honestly, since that 'boost' in the DT50 is handled by a 12AX7 tube. It also seems to exist in the DT25, just no idea what type of circuit is creating that boost - there is no second 12AX7 in the DT25. At first I thought it was a boost tied to the preamp section, but it's clearly indicated as being in the poweramp. A caveat to that, it doesn't seem to function when the DT is in low volume mode, so be sure to test that in full volume mode. You may prefer to have it on; I didn't, so for the amp models that I loaded into my DT's, I switched that boost to 'off' on all of them. Loving the SLO models. The topologies do make quite a difference to the sound. It's pretty dramatic. Also, for what it's worth, here are a couple other things I discovered when messing with the DTEdit MIDI editor: - the mic model as defined on the DT25/50 is what will feed the XLR output; not the mic model defined in the HD500 when linked. - you can set 'no amp' in the DT25/50 for standalone use, and it makes the JTV acoustic models work much better. Downside to this, is the channel gain, eq, and volume controls don't work - but the master volume does. That observation may also give you some insight into how the DT controls engage the preamp levels vs the poweramp levels. - that boost on/off setting as I mentioned above - you can set 8 different reverbs, one for each of A-1, A-2, B-1, B-2, etc. One other thing: I got a dual latching footswitch hoping to set up two-channel amp style switching. Yes it works, but not as hoped. There is an audible / significant silent / dropout when toggling between channels A and B. I haven't rested to see if that happens always, or if it's specific to amp model or topology changes. I wanted to do stuff like, set up the 'A' amps as the 'normal' channel of amp models with two channels, and set 'B' to the 'bright' channel. I also wanted to do stuff like configure B to be a lead / clean boost over what it set in A. I abandoned that idea quickly.

Sort of. I have found that when you define 'no amp' model, and as such no cab model (IE, no preamp) on the DT in standalone mode, it can be used to great benefit when L6Linking from the HD500 to the DT, ESPECIALLY if you want to use Variax acoustic and reso models. Makes them sound WAYYYYYY better not going through a digital preamp. The amp gain and channel volume, and tone stacks don't work in this scenario, and you have to also set up your patch on the HD500 to not use an amp model. You also have to choose the standalone power amp configurations you want to use, but wow is it like night and day. So much better. Think of it like this: when you bypass the DT and HD preamp / amp models, you have a direct tap to the Bogner, all analog tube power amp component. For the Variax, with those acoustic and reso models, this makes a big difference. There is also another benefit to configuring your DT amp for use with an HD500. The mic model AS DEFINED in the DT25/50 is what gets applied to the DT's XLR output. Also, you can swap up the reverbs. But in particular, the mic model can make a big difference, and when L6linking from HD500 to DT, it DOES NOT USE THE MIC MODEL ON THE HD500. It uses the mic model in the DT25, as configured using that MIDI editor.

Nice looking pedalboard! Assembling a pedalboard does give a person a new found respect for how all this stuff works, and how challenging it can be to get an awesome tone - with the FX on, and ALSO with all the FX off!! And, on top of that challenge, to also have great routing options. Here's my board, as it stands now. It's most of the way there, I had to stop tweaking and re-arranging, so I could spend some time playing, and listening. For now, it's good. Not perfect, but way better than it was before!!

This whole topic has me thinking more about how to utilize the analog Bogner portion of the DT25, while bypassing the 'HD' preamp, cab, and mic models. It *seems* that with some clever pre-configuring using the DTEdit MIDI editor, and using a MIDI cable with the Helix, there will be some interesting options possibly not explored previously. Recently, I have started tweaking around with my DT25's in standalone mode, primarily for use with my other 'stompbox' pedalboard. I switched up the onboard amp models, turned off the extra 'boost' setting (that is 'ON' by default in MOST of the amp models) I discovered that when you disable the amp model of any given channel of the 8 available (A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, B-1, B-2, B-3, B-4) you get some interesting results. The most obvious application, is for the JTV acoustic and reso models. This also works when L6Linked to an HD500 / HD500x. You just set your HD500 patch to not have any amp model, and choose the standalone channel on the DT25 with no amp model. The key here is to also set the most compatible power amp / topology mode on the DT25 in it's preconfigured standalone MIDI setup. I actually have both A-1 and B-1 set to no amp model on the DT, but with slightly different power, pentode, class settings. The tone is 1,00000000 x better than running the JTV acoustic models through ANY of the preamps. Way, way better. It's a clean tap into the analog power amp section, and it's amazing. Which is a perfect segue into how to consider using Helix preamp models into the DT25. Not 100% clear on what they mean when they say the DT link experience will be more similar to the L3/L3 link configuration? Currently, using an HD500 linked to a DT25, the HD provides the preamp signal, and because it's linked, bypasses the DT onboard preamp signal, EXCEPT when no preamp or amp model is chosen in the HD500, then it defaults to the onboard DT25 amp model. Unless, like I have been doing, you setup the DT25 to have no amp model, then it completely skips all preamp, and just sends signal to power amp. What I would hope, is that when you L6Link the Helix to the DT25/DT50 that you get at least a similar response. IE, bypasses the onboard DT preamps models, and routes the Helix signal directly to the Bogner poweramp.

FX8 doesn't have amp modeling; and it's doubtful the yet-to-be-released AX-8 will be 'true bypass' since it has amp modeling. Just to veer off topic a touch here; what are you going with for a buffer before the front of your amp? I have been working on a mostly 'stomp box' style fully true-bypass pedalboard myself; unrelated to Helix / Axe / FX / HD, etc. Just 'cause I like gear :) Anyway, I use an L6 G70 wireless, on a stompbox style pedalboard. A few Keeley pedals, a TS9, couple of Fulltone. The signal is going from G70 first through an ISP G-string / Decimator noise gate (signal tracks the dry off the G70, but actually applies the noise gate immediately after the amps' fX send - which yet another diversion, I realized the DT amps place the reverb signal BEFORE the fx loop send - which meant the noise gate was chopping all the DT reverb tails, so I just stopped using the DT reverb, and added an M9 into the end of the 'post' section) Back to the buffer / true bypass - I am using a Voodoo Lab PX-8. just discovered it, decent, relatively affordable 8 loop switcher. It has a buffered output at the END of the 8 loops - but it also has an insert send / return between loops 6 & 7, and that send is NOT buffered. I was getting garbage sound with no buffer - all true bypass, and my tone was horrible. I mean, really, really, really bad. I stuck a buffered tuner at the end of the chain just before the front of the amp, and it definitely improved considerably. So I picked up a Fulltone OCD, and a Fulltone 2B, and I run both at 18v. They are after loop 6; which actually has two pedals in it. (Keeley overdrive and Keeley modded, true bypass TS9). I run the OCD into the 2B. The 2B when off is still 'on', acting as a buffer. And it was like night and day with tone. When it's on, it has a clean boost type volume control, and also a germanium limiter, so it acts as both buffer, clean boost, and mild limiter right before the front end of the amp. I bought low capacitance cables from BestTronics, and those also sound a lot better than the schwag I had previously. And at 18v, both Fulltone pedals have considerably more headroom, which is giving me some nice sounds that I didn't have previously. The major downside to doing a board like this, is the cost of patch cables! I had a bunch of these Planet Waves cables, but they were not seating properly in all the pedals, and kept working their way free. So I spent way too much coin on something like four of five packages of George L's right angle cable kits. In retrospect, I might have found a better way to get the cable and connectors in bulk - kept buying one pack, doing some swap outs, buying another pack a few weeks later. Just stretched into this insane project! Overall, true bypass, for a board like this is crucial. Even more crucial is the switcher, which not only continues the true bypass, it also eliminate the cable length for pedals not switched in on the PX-8. Took me a few misfires on layout too. Since I have an M9 in there, I tried putting my Mission EXP pedal in the center top of the board, the switcher in the middle bottom row, wah to the right, volume pedal to the left. It all kinda sorta fit, but not very well. In the end I bumped the Mission exp off, and it all worked much better that way. For now, I have the M9 in loop switcher #8. I don't set it to true bypass, since I was delay trails. That way, if I don't intend to use it, I can get it out of the circuit. It also allows me to pull it out of the signal path, set up a new patch of FX, set them on/off, tap tempo, etc., then switch it in when needed. I have an analog chorus in switcher #7, which is somewhat overkill, but it allows me to expand the reverb and delay options in the M9 pallette, so for now, works pretty well. It's certainly no Helix in terms of complexity, this while being a challenge, is overall relatively simple. Get a pedalboard, some good velcro, some George L's or other high quality patch cable, a switcher, and a bunch of pedals. Put 'em all together and see what happens!! Oh yeah, and good power too. I use a Furman outlet strip, and I power the pedalboard with a Voodoo Lab Mondo (mounted underneath a Pedaltrain 32x16 board) Here's the signal chain currently: guitar -> G70 wireless (also serves as a tuner) -> ISP noise gate (signal tracking) -> PX-8 input loop#1 wah loop#2 Keeley Bootlegger (Sweetwater germanium version of the Red Dirt) loop#3 Keeley autowah loop#4 Keeley 4-knob comp loop#5 Keeley phaser loop#6 Keeley 'Cure ALS' overdrive -> Keeley modded true bypass Ibanez TS9 PX-8 'insert' SEND -> Fulltone OCD (at 18v) -> Fulltone 2B (at 18v) -> TO AMP FRONT INPUT (DT25) DT25 fx loop send -> ISP noise gate -> volume pedal -> PX-8 insert 'return' loop#7 Keeley analog chorus loop#8 Line6 M9 PX-8 buffered main out -> DT25 fx loop return. Now, this rig gets used by the other guitarist in my band, and I have been typically using my HD500x linked to a second DT25 mini-stack (DT25 combo on top of DT25 cab). Those two little mini stacks sound great for my rig and his, and our stage volumes are quite manageable. And I apologize to Line6 in advance, but I removed the four big plastic Line6 logo plates from the amps and cabs.. Mostly, so they don't get destroyed lugging gear around, but also, 'cause it's a lot of advertising there.. They look a little more mysterious with no identifying logos. :) I digress! So yeah, that's my rigs. And I have a Helix on pre-order. I have an M20d too, and the Stagesource speakers to go with it. I have found, that my last several Line6 purchases, have all been 100% AWESOME. The G70, needed that firmware update - but now it's good to go. I didn't get one right away, more recently - had been using the G50 previously. On a side note, for folks with the G70, BestTronics has upgraded cable assemblies available, with the locking ends. They sent me some prototypes, one angled jack, one straight. I do like that the G70 uses that type of locking cable, and not a proprietary cable connector. I also like that it doesn't have those funky antenna ears!! So yeah, with the last few years of gear Line6 has been knocking it out of the park, and I expect Helix will melt people's faces, and more important, decimate any negative pre-existing notions of what it is, or what it should be. Is it true bypass? No. Does that matter? I don't know. I don't see it like that, but only you will know that when you actually try to use one with your rig, in the manner you want to use it! I recently bought a used Keeley distortion pedal on Reverb.com, and while I typically love most everything Keeley does, I just can't get this pedal to play nice on the pedalboard, so for now it's set aside. Use the tools that work for the music in your head, and worry not about other things. There is just not enough time and too much gear! Your gear is like your voice, it becomes a part of the individual expressive nature of who we are and what we have to say, musically. In the end, necessity is the mother of invention. If it does some or alot of what you want, but not all of it, then get creative! Postulate new ideas of how to make it work! And have fun with it, that's what makes music great.

He's baaaacccckkk... and working on 'part 4'... I can't actually bring myself to watch these, I've been spending too much time watching and rewatching the Sean Halley vids instead :) Notice how now he is "Fractal Axe FX Gear Owner Romeo Rose"... lulz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL9CXMFghIA

Even more bizarre, are the before and after photos of his teeth.... "Before".. "After"...

"We've been working on it for about six years, and, uh, it's great to finally be able to talk about it, and show people, and stop hiding it when I take it in and out of my house" :)

It goes to 11! Actually, cat is out of the bag, that's the new Romeo Rose Signature Variax, designed to ensure subluxation in your neck, back, and guarantee repeated visits to the chiropractor. On the plus side, it doubles as a battle axe for Rennaisance Faire reineactments