Moving the joystick without rotating (split from "on the fly saving")

[mdmayfield]

Hi all,

 

I wanted to split off this topic, since it was kind of hijacking this thread -  http://line6.com/support/topic/14849-will-helix-have-the-on-the-fly-saving-that-the-m-series-had/

 

Ideas people have mentioned so far:

 

- Don't grab the entire control, but just push it down from the top on the edge you want to move it

- Use the above technique, but with your thumb only while anchoring your fingers on the edge of the Helix

 

Another idea I had, which is a bit silly but might actually work, is to create (maybe 3D-print?) a little tool that would look kind of like a miniature sink plunger - with a hollow rounded bottom that would fit snugly around the knob, and have like a 1" thin-ish handle that points straight up from the center.

 

The difference in leverage from the top of the "joystick plunger" would probably be enough to easily move the joystick without rotating it. Then when you actually want to rotate it, you can hold it by the base.

 

If anybody has access to a 3D printer, that might be something fun to try!

 

Thanks,

 

Matt

[amsdenj]

The sensitivity of this control to rotation needs to be addressed. It is not reasonable for a control to be this sensitive and result in inadvertant parameter changes that are hard to notice while adjusting something that is on the floor with a guitar in your hands, picks to control, and playing in a live situation. Line6 needs to address this usability issue.

[BigRalphN]

I felt the same way at first, but I actually like it now I am used to it. I just use one finger and tap it left or right. If you grab hold of it it is near impossible not to turn it.

[mdmayfield]

Personally, I would prefer a mode where rotating the joystick does not change the effect type (i.e. you'd have to click/push it to select a new effect).

[Joepeggio]

YES!!  I second that. I get the Amp or Effect set perfectly and bump the rotation and all settings lost.  Also settings on an Amp/Effect should stay the same as they were so returning after an accidental bump, not change to default.

[jaminjimlp]

YES!!  I second that. I get the Amp or Effect set perfectly and bump the rotation and all settings lost.  Also settings on an Amp/Effect should stay the same as they were so returning after an accidental bump, not change to default.

+1 on both!!! the best work around I have found so far is to save after every change you make so if you turn instead of bump just turn the preset knob back and forth and your ready to go again... no problemo! after losing multiple changes I came up with that. and for now it works.

[xavierb]

Even better... keep the same settings (at least the ones that are common) when I change amps or cabs - I would love that!

[tommasi]

I wholeheartedly second the opinion that Line6 should address this.

It is very easy to accidentally change a block assignment while moving around with the joystick, and this is very aggravating for 2 reasons: 1. you may not notice that it actually happened until you realize something's wrong with your patch, and 2. the parameter settings for the original block are lost.

 

I am sure that with practice and repeated use one might develop a certain skill to keep the joystick from turning while moving it, but you shouldn't have to, and the usage conditions (controller on the floor, busy hands, often a correction made on the fly and in a hurry to adjust something wile playing) say that it is fairly critical for that not to happen. Imagine what happens if you want to dimish the gain of your distortion pedal, you travel to it, only for accidentally turning it and setting it to a tri fuzz or something mid-song.

 

I have become very wary of using the joystick, and avoiding it when I can, by:

1. using the 'amp' button to go to the amp box (no joystick)

2. using the sensitive footswitches to go to any of the blocks that are assigned to a footswitch

3. if I have to move to a block that's not assigned, I use the footswitch to select the closest assigned block, so as to minimize movement by joystick, and finally

4. using pedal edit mode

 

All of this mess would be solved by the very simple fix of making the user turn the joystick more to "unlock it" -- say, 3 clicks instead of one to "wake up" rotation. This way, the odd small movement while using the joystick for navigation would not cause an unadverted block change.

[theKennyG]

I felt the same way at first, but I actually like it now I am used to it. I just use one finger and tap it left or right. If you grab hold of it it is near impossible not to turn it.

 

I've been using two fingers to move the joystick so it's getting pressure from two points rather than one and I haven't accidentally scrolled to a new effect/amp yet.

[efunkelist]

This is one more reason to must have a computer-based editing application. I've lost too many perfectly set amps while navigating through the signal-paths and accidentally rotating the knob :(

[xavierb]

Even better... keep the same settings (at least the ones that are common) when I change amps or cabs - I would love that!

 

Should be a setting, especially given that if you click on one of the 6 knobs (something you can do if you want to manually anyway) you can go back to the default for that value.

[autys]

Please fix this.. so many times I've accidentally changed a block to something else and lost all my settings.. It can't be hard to fix.

[BigRalphN]

Please fix this.. so many times I've accidentally changed a block to something else and lost all my settings.. It can't be hard to fix.

It isn't broke. There are just as many of us who have no issue once we get used to it. I do not want it played with and made sluggish. The joystick is my favorite part of the editor..

[lawrence_Arps]

It isn't broke. There are just as many of us who have no issue once we get used to it. I do not want it played with and made sluggish. The joystick is my favorite part of the editor..

This.  I have never had an issue with the joystick doing something I didn't want.  Its a great little control.  Helix is a woman , not a pickup truck!

[HonestOpinion]

I wholeheartedly second the opinion that Line6 should address this.

It is very easy to accidentally change a block assignment while moving around with the joystick, and this is very aggravating for 2 reasons: 1. you may not notice that it actually happened until you realize something's wrong with your patch, and 2. the parameter settings for the original block are lost.

 

I am sure that with practice and repeated use one might develop a certain skill to keep the joystick from turning while moving it, but you shouldn't have to, and the usage conditions (controller on the floor, busy hands, often a correction made on the fly and in a hurry to adjust something wile playing) say that it is fairly critical for that not to happen. Imagine what happens if you want to dimish the gain of your distortion pedal, you travel to it, only for accidentally turning it and setting it to a tri fuzz or something mid-song.

 

I have become very wary of using the joystick, and avoiding it when I can, by:

1. using the 'amp' button to go to the amp box (no joystick)

2. using the sensitive footswitches to go to any of the blocks that are assigned to a footswitch

3. if I have to move to a block that's not assigned, I use the footswitch to select the closest assigned block, so as to minimize movement by joystick, and finally

4. using pedal edit mode

 

All of this mess would be solved by the very simple fix of making the user turn the joystick more to "unlock it" -- say, 3 clicks instead of one to "wake up" rotation. This way, the odd small movement while using the joystick for navigation would not cause an unadverted block change.

 

I agree! "Just get used to it" does not need to be how we address this UI issue. This issue is easily remedied with a global setting in a way that could leave it as is for those who like it and make it easier for those of us who find it to be an issue. Everybody wins! The sensitivity is definitely even more of an issue when you are at a gig bending over the Helix with a guitar in one hand and don't have time to carefully make adjustments.

[WaldMeister]

What do You think about this compromise:

 

My idea is an additional Edit mode.

 

(I posted it already at the "Helix Ideascale Community Submissions"-thread and You can vote for it under: http://line6.ideasca...508?submitted=1 )

 

Add "Alternate Edit Mode" to avoid changes by accident

(all at Home Screen!)

touch FS6 ("MODE") to toggle between current Edit behavior and:

1. touch any block FS do NOT change the display!

2. turning the Joystick skips the focus to the next block but NOT change block’s modelselection

3. a little icon on Home Screen should indicate which mode is active (or the cribble strip of "EDIT"?)

 

[BigRalphN]

Actually the term "get used to it" is perfectly valid. Being older than many of you, I can say without a doubt that there are a ton of changes in your life and in technology that you just have to get use to. More often than not not it turns out easier. But we live in an "entitled society" these days where everyone has to have it their exact eay, but that is a different subject and not directed at a particular petson. I find myself being the same at times.

 

Back to the point I have said all along that the easiest way to do this is just have a joystick rotation disable feature..so if it's on it worked as is. Off and turning the joystick does not thing. All other joystick features would work.

[HonestOpinion]

 

What do You think about this compromise:

 

My idea ia an additional Edit mode.

 

(I posted it already at the "Helix Ideascale Community Submissions"-thread and You can vote for it under: http://line6.ideasca...508?submitted=1 )

 

Add "Alternate Edit Mode" to avoid changes by accident

(all at Home Screen!)

touch FS6 ("MODE") to toggle between current Edit behavior and:

1. touch any block FS do NOT change the display!

2. turning the Joystick skips the focus to the next block but NOT change block’s modelselection

3. a little icon on Home Screen should indicate which mode is active (or the cribble strip of "EDIT"?)

 

 

 

I think this is yet another great alternative for addressing this issue.  I still prefer one of the following two options because all of the current functionality remains largely unchanged:

1. Global setting to increase the required radius of turn on the joystick required to scroll through pedals/amps.  For example 1/16 thru 1/4 turn (2 clicks - 8 clicks).

     2. Global setting allowing a variable delay, for example 100ms-2000ms, before joystick starts scrolling though pedals/amps. 

 

Vote for it here:

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Make-joystick-require-larger-turn-before-effect-changes/788248-23508

[tommasi]

Actually the term "get used to it" is perfectly valid. Being older than many of you, I can say without a doubt that there are a ton of changes in your life and in technology that you just have to get use to. More often than not not it turns out easier. But we live in an "entitled society" these days where everyone has to have it their exact eay, but that is a different subject and not directed at a particular petson. I find myself being the same at times.

 

This might get academic, and a little OT, but while I agree with you for life changing stuff, "get used to it" is *not* a good principle when it comes to user experience/user interface design. You need to "get used" to a change of paradigm, because overcoming existing limitations requires change, and users always react to change with a little "inertia", because they like what they're "used to". But having to "get used" to an idiosyncracy of a user interface or a fault in design is not something one should consider necessary.

You "get used" to switching from your comfortable old fax machine to the devilishly complex email attachment system, but you do not have to "get used" to your car pulling to the left as you drive, even though you might learn to compensate for that.

[mdmayfield]

....having to "get used" to an idiosyncracy of a user interface or a fault in design is not something one should consider necessary.

 

 

I agree 100%, especially when it can be improved (I'll avoid the loaded term "fixed") so easily in software.

 

Technically it's not broken, but it's a poor design decision, a mistake and a violation of the most basic ergonomic/usability principles. They're putting two things into one control:

 

1) Moving the cursor between blocks

   - The only way to move the cursor to unassigned blocks

   - Done very often when tweaking

   - Doesn't make any changes

   - No bad consequences to doing accidentally

 

2) Change the effect the cursor is on

   - One of several ways to change the effect

   - Not done often when tweaking

   - Huge bad consequences to doing accidentally (minutes or more of work wiped out instantly)

   - Easy to do accidentally

 

Why the hell would you want those two things in one control?

 

It's like putting an ejection seat on your car, and then to eject out the ceiling of your car, you simply move the turn signal one extra click. See? Super convenient! .... Until you see all the crashed empty cars on the highway, and confused people in the ditch.

[BigRalphN]

This might get academic, and a little OT, but while I agree with you for life changing stuff, "get used to it" is *not* a good principle when it comes to user experience/user interface design. You need to "get used" to a change of paradigm, because overcoming existing limitations requires change, and users always react to change with a little "inertia", because they like what they're "used to". But having to "get used" to an idiosyncracy of a user interface or a fault in design is not something one should consider necessary.

You "get used" to switching from your comfortable old fax machine to the devilishly complex email attachment system, but you do not have to "get used" to your car pulling to the left as you drive, even though you might learn to compensate for that.

Get used to interface design is no different than life events. I point to my old job. After I gave up full time sound work I ended up in a steel mill running overhead cranes. We had old lever systems to lidt, trolley and travel as well as brakes. When the plant changed ownership they updated all the cranes. Gone was our levers and in its place were two super sensitive joysticks. They were super sensitive and one stick replaced two to three levers in functions. It was very hard at first and we had people's lives in our hands. Old timers flipped. We lifted 3 ton coils right next to people. But within a couple months we realized that the new system was more precise. With practice we all became better. And while a few longed for their old trusty levers the high majority realized that what we had switched to was much better and safer in the long run.

 

You mentioned a car pulling left. That is a malfunction. The Helix is a purposeful design. In a previous thread they mentioned all the testing they did Touchscreen and other things were eliminated and this is what people who tested liked. People are not giving this a fair shake. The Helix has not even been out long enough for anyone to fully get used to things. Much like the stupid screen in my car. Ha ha.

 

One of my points above was that a lot of us like the current controls. Most people seem to want it exactly to their specs with no regard to others(not you as you are for an on or off type thing).That just isn't possoble. Everyone will need to make compromises on what they want.

 

Like I said abice a simple on or off for knob rotation would be a simple compromise. It would not require circuit redesigns(which some of the above would require). At least I don't think it would. Then all the functionality is still there and accidental rotation would do nothing. Turn it on and it is as is.

 

I suppose I don't have problems because though retired now, I used a similar joystick. I am not going to say I never had it turn on me. At first it did. I mess up all the time with the touch sensitive switches. I constantly bump one with my forearm goofing things up while tweaking. But I am getting better there too.

[phil_m]

This might get academic, and a little OT, but while I agree with you for life changing stuff, "get used to it" is *not* a good principle when it comes to user experience/user interface design. You need to "get used" to a change of paradigm, because overcoming existing limitations requires change, and users always react to change with a little "inertia", because they like what they're "used to". But having to "get used" to an idiosyncracy of a user interface or a fault in design is not something one should consider necessary.

You "get used" to switching from your comfortable old fax machine to the devilishly complex email attachment system, but you do not have to "get used" to your car pulling to the left as you drive, even though you might learn to compensate for that.

 

I see validity in both sides. The behavior of the joystick was something I brought up as well during the beta period, and they actually did work on the mechanics of the knob to make turning it accidentally a little harder. It can still happen, though. I don't know that just because something takes some getting used to means it's a bad design. One example I can think of is the typical touchpad setup on a PC laptop versus a Mac. I've used PCs for so long that when I first tried my wife's MacBook Air touchpad, I felt almost lost with it, and it was pretty frustrating. After a little bit, I got used to it. In some way, I actually prefer it a little bit now.

 

I'm not saying the current implementation is perfect. "Perfect" probably doesn't actually exist when it comes to this sort of design. There's always going to be personal preferences. I think the one thing is that I think companies are always a little hesitant to change the mechanical behavior of things once they're "in the wild". It can be a challenge to communicate what was done to all users, and there's going to be some percentage of people who were perfectly happy with the way it was.

[tommasi]

I don't disagree with you, Ralph, as you're essentially saying that adapting oneself is a good attitude to have in general. I would be foolish make a point against this. I am however simply stating that a bad design decision (you are correct, the joystick works as per spec, but it is not well thought-out as ohers pointed out) is something the manufacurer needs to address without assuming it is something people will get used to -- it "needs" to from a business standpoint, that is.

 

Totally right that you can't overengineer stuff, you can't have things tailor made.

If the controls in the crane you operated were oversensitive, I bet they got improved in susequent versions -- something that might happen once in 40 years in cranes (don't know the life expectancy of a crane), but that is probably software controlled in the helix.

[tommasi]

I don't know that just because something takes some getting used to means it's a bad design.

 

Just to make things clear, I think the Helix has awesome design. I have nothing against the joystick per se, moreover it would be realtively easy to improve its use.

 

However, "bad" (let's say sub-optimal) design from a user experience point of view, it's something relatively easy to measure: if after a reasonable amount of use, most people would still like it improved, well, then maybe that's the case. :)

The other case to make is when, after "getting used to it", you actually prefer it to the supposedly improved version.

In the first case, there's no advantage, and a possibly little or big nuisance, in the second case, there's an advantage that requires a developed skill to take.

[garymwest]

This works great!

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/line6-helix.1586637/page-712#post-20818660

 

Someone mentioned some Sugru is mouldable glue. Stick it, shape it and it will turn into rubber. 

[mdmayfield]

This works great!

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/line6-helix.1586637/page-712#post-20818660

 

Someone mentioned some Sugru is mouldable glue. Stick it, shape it and it will turn into rubber. 

 

I don't own a 3D printer, but I have SketchUp and made this:

 

 

That should fit right over the knob snugly, and be a bit more sturdy than glue. I sent it to my local UPS Store to have it printed (25 bucks for a 1" x 1" x 1+" model though; yikes). They're printing it in a nice dark gray so it won't stand out too much.

 

If it works well, I'll let you know. It might need some shaving down on the inside with sandpaper; we'll see.

 

If anybody has a 3D printer, you can try it yourself with the attached .STL file.

 

Thanks,

 

Matt

 

---------

 

Edit: The interior cavity of the model is definitely too small; I'm going to have to sand it out. If I were to print it again, I'd make the interior cavity 20-30 mils larger or so.

MMHelixControl-Inches.stl.zip

[a2dconverterguy]

As everyone else, I was having the same problem with the joystick from time-to-time when flying around the helix.

 

I wanted to minimize the contact area with my finger, so, I removed the knob which was fine until I hit the flatted part of the shaft or when I had to turn it.(and it didn't look nice)

 

I sorted through my parts drawer and found a smaller diameter knob... works for me!

 

I hope this helps

 

seeya

 

Joe

[mdmayfield]

The 3D printed joystick turned out pretty well - it just took some sanding on the inside with a Dremel to make it fit:

 

[deadlocked]

Same here :)

I sorted through my parts drawer and found a smaller diameter knob... works for me!

 

 

I hope this helps

 

seeya

 

Joe

 

 

I happened to have a knob laying around from an old device I hardly use anymore, so I commandeered it. I was actually looking into it online and saw a number of knobs that could also work on Amazon. You basically need to search for "knob 6mm" and make sure that you get a tall skinny knob with a "D" shaped hole (or an insert that makes it into a D-shaped hole). Do not choose the ones that have round holes or star-shaped holes (ribbed), it must be D-shaped.

 

 

Also, make sure that it is a right fit: When pulling out the existing knob (no tools needed), just grasp it firmly, try to get the tip of your fingers under it and pull straight up. If you notice that, when pushing the new knob in, it takes more force than what it took to pull it out (it should take a bit more force than it takes to click the knob down, but not much more) then STOP!, do not risk damaging the joystick.

 

If your knob pushes in all the way and it won't click down, it means the hole is too long: take small bits out of a paper towel (less than 1/4" square each) and stick them in the knob's hole until the go as far as they will go, then try again. If the knob still goes too far in, pull the knob out, insert another bit of paper towel as far as it will go and try again and again until the knob hovers just above the body of the Helix, rotates freely, you can easily push it and move it up/down/left/right with ease. The knob should not touch or rub against the body of the Helix in any way, no matter how you move it: At this point, it is just right.

 

A quick Amazon search returns many options: Remember, tall and skinny is better to use as a joystick. Not all of these have D-shaped holes, but the ones that say "shaft insert" tend to be your safer bets:

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dindustrial&field-keywords=6mm+Hole+Diameter+knob

 

The following look like they are the right kind, but I do not have them with me to test, so I cannot guarantee they will work:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Shaft-Potentiometer-Control-Knobs/dp/B0087ZC4HM/ref=pd_sim_sbs_328_15?ie=UTF8&dpID=31fsFjk6MBL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=10H5FQBC8BXJYCTMDMFH

 

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Aluminum-Insert-Potentiometer-Control/dp/B00KHTTAFK/ref=pd_sim_sbs_328_3?ie=UTF8&dpID=41sug6ExUYL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=10H5FQBC8BXJYCTMDMFH

 

http://www.amazon.com/Diameter-Potentiometer-Cover-10mmx16mm-Black/dp/B00VG3PKIM/ref=sr_1_3?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1447116725&sr=1-3&keywords=6mm+Hole+Diameter+knob

 

After looking at the knob and shaft again, I would recommend to go with the second (middle) choice above. The joystick shaft is too short and stubby and it will probably not get a good grip if you go with the first or third choice; but they could still work, provided that you are prepared to "dremel" or file down the bottom until you get a good fit.

 

Please note: Make any and all modifications to the replacement knob, not to the Helix joystick shaft. This will allow you to easily put it back the way it was before, in case you want to or need to *coughWARRANTYcough*. Note that I did not mention "in case you want to sell it later"... if you are like me, you will be buried with with your Helix :) ...

 

... or maybe you will sell it when Line 6 releases the Uber-Helix in a few years, with the upgraded "Guitar Awesomizer" model, that makes you sound like a guitar god no matter how sloppy you play.  DI, Can I IdeaScale this? :ph34r:

[pwik]

Had my Helix since last Friday and I have yet to have a problem using the joystick.  ^_^

[ThomasZinther]

I,m having trouble with saving , mostly while I'm performing live. The "Save" Button is just to close to the "Destination" - I have overwritten several of my Presets. I hope LIne6 can make something flash/red when you overwrite something that is NOT a "New Preset".

[mdmayfield]

I,m having trouble with saving , mostly while I'm performing live. The "Save" Button is just to close to the "Destination" - I have overwritten several of my Presets. I hope LIne6 can make something flash/red when you overwrite something that is NOT a "New Preset".

 

Hi Thomas, I see this is your first post. Welcome to the forum.

 

It's considered good forum etiquette to start a new topic for a question about something other than the thread's subject - that is, not to "hijack" the thread, or "necro-bump" an old topic that has run its course.

 

For myself, I've found that if I start a new topic for a question, with a relevant title, there's better chance that people will see and answer the question that way. It might be worth considering doing that for your question.

 

As far as the question itself, the only helpful thing I can think of is to keep regular backups of your presets, but of course that's not too useful in the heat of the moment at a gig.

 

Thanks & good luck,

 

Matt

[lawrence_Arps]

I cant see how a smaller knob is a good thing...(did I just say that?)

 

For the sake of those keeping score - I have never yet had the joystick turn accidentally.  Seems to me you would have to be holding it with thumb and finger to do that?  I only use one finger to move sideways...