Helix XLR -> Scarlett 18i20 -> Yamaha HS7 Monitors Sounds like Crap

[jdumoit]

Hoping someone here can point out something stupid I'm doing. 

 

Like the title says, I have my new helix running in stereo via XLRs to channels 3 and 4 of my Scarlett audio interface.  I'm using my Yamaha monitors to listen as I play.  I changed the XLR outs to the MIC setting via Global Parameters.  The phantom power is not engaged on the Scarlett. 

 

A reasonably good clean Twin Reverb type tone wasn't too hard to achieve, but all the rhythm/lead tones sounds like complete crap to me.  After several hours of tweaking parameters on the Marshall Plexi model, I think there must be something I'm doing wrong.  Even with the gain and both volumes on 10 the model isn't breaking up much. 

 

I've tried with my EJ strat, Les Paul, Gadow, Variax - all the same - so I don't think it's a signal strength issue.  I've tried the built in impulse responses and several Ownhammer ones.  I've tried with the Echoplex model -> Tube Driver model -> Plexi model ala EJ and it sounds like complete lollipop regardless of settings (within 5 hours of twiddling).

 

Also, the models seem to react weird to the tone control being adjusted on the guitar.   

 

So questions: 

 

1.  Is it not a good idea to run the helix through my recording setup and out my monitors for some reason? 

2. Am I doing something stupid?

3. If not 1&2, is this normal, and I'm just a jackass who has to have real amps?

 

Thanks for any help guys.

[phil_m]

It would be worth trying to plug your monitors directly into the Helix just for troubleshooting purposes.

 

Regarding the Plexi model, are you positive you're using the full amp model and not the pre version?

[HonestOpinion]

...

 

A reasonably good clean Twin Reverb type tone wasn't too hard to achieve, but all the rhythm/lead tones sounds like complete crap to me.  After several hours of tweaking parameters on the Marshall Plexi model, I think there must be something I'm doing wrong.  Even with the gain and both volumes on 10 the model isn't breaking up much. 

 

...

 

 

It would be worth trying to plug your monitors directly into the Helix just for troubleshooting purposes.

 

Regarding the Plexi model, are you positive you're using the full amp model and not the pre version?

 

The not breaking up issue on the Marshall reminds me of what happens when I don't have the volume knob on my guitar set high enough into a distorted patch. This points me to thinking that the issue could be related to gain somewhere in your signal chain. You may want to try just your guitar into the Helix and out into a pair of headphones.  Select an "Amp + Cab" model. Make sure you have the noise gate on the input block set to off. Check your "Drive" and volume in the amp and the output block and crank the volume on your guitar all the way up. If you still can't get any gain, try swapping out your guitar or guitar cord (assuming you have not already tried that). After you hopefully get the expected results through headphones try plugging directly in your Yamaha monitors as phil_m suggested and then once you get the sound right there, ultimately back into the Scarlett.  Good luck!

[fukuri]

I use a virtually identical setup and I get a great sound (to my ears)

Are you getting enough volume into the pres?

[fukuri]

I pretty much recorded this straight in

All instruments and vocals via the Helix

https://soundcloud.com/user2646262/prayprayvox

[fukuri]

https://flic.kr/p/DfEx76

[jdumoit]

It would be worth trying to plug your monitors directly into the Helix just for troubleshooting purposes.

 

Regarding the Plexi model, are you positive you're using the full amp model and not the pre version?

I tried it with both the line6 impulse response and a few ownhammer ones.

 

I use a virtually identical setup and I get a great sound (to my ears)

Are you getting enough volume into the pres?

Well, no. I've been adjusting the gain on the Scarlett until the levels are green/yellow but no red. I assume red means it's clipping?

 

I pretty much recorded this straight in

All instruments and vocals via the Helix

https://soundcloud.com/user2646262/prayprayvox

That sounds much better than mine. Maybe I'll try it directly to the monitors

 

The not breaking up issue on the Marshall reminds me of what happens when I don't have the volume knob on my guitar set high enough into a distorted patch. This points me to thinking that the issue could be related to gain somewhere in your signal chain. You may want to try just your guitar into the Helix and out into a pair of headphones.  Select an "Amp + Cab" model. Make sure you have the noise gate on the input block set to off. Check your "Drive" and volume in the amp and the output block and crank the volume on your guitar all the way up. If you still can't get any gain, try swapping out your guitar or guitar cord (assuming you have not already tried that). After you hopefully get the expected results through headphones try plugging directly in your Yamaha monitors as phil_m suggested and then once you get the sound right there, ultimately back into the Scarlett.  Good luck!

I've tried tweaking the gain, the channel volume, the master volume, the tone controls, the presence, bias, bias x, etc. I haven't touched the hum or sag because I'm not sure what they're supposed to do. On my guitars, I've tried single coils, humbuckers, volume full, half, tone full, rolled down - just about everything.

 

Thanks for the suggestions, guys!

[TheDaveDaveDave]

Everyone else's suggestions are good ones - but here's another couple of shots in the dark:

• Check your global settings and make sure "Guitar In Pad" is off, and that Guitar Impedance is set to "auto" it's your best bet, as the input will mimic the impedance of whatever pedal/amp you have first in the Helix chain.
• Are you %100 sure you've been jacked into the guitar input instead of the aux input? (I've done this twice and it took me forever to figure out why things sounded so bad, very much like what you describe)
• For the XLR output setting, line level is preferred over mic level, as it's 30 to 35db hotter than mic level. (You'll need to match your audio interface's input setting to the other end of the cable of course.)

 

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

[napynap]

....Even with the gain and both volumes on 10 the model isn't breaking up much....

 

We know it should be breaking up a lot more at high gains. It seems like you are monitoring more of the dry sound of your guitar from your Scarlett interface, instead of the processed signal from the Helix.

[jdumoit]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys! I'm traveling for my day job now and haven't had a chance to work on it in a few days. I'm hoping I'm plugged into the aux input as Dave described. That would be an easy fix!

[aepoc]

I'm interested to see what the fix is for this.  :)

[jdumoit]

Unfortunately, I've been plugged into the Guitar In and not the Aux.  Shoot.

 

Just spent a couple more hours playing with my plexi preset and I think I can be more specific about what doesn't sound good to me.  The model sounds better with the Transistor Tape delay turned off.  I spent over an hour tweaking the few parameters on this delay model, and can't get it to sound good with the Plexi.  No problem there; I'll start exploring the other delay models.

 

Also, I'm disappointed with how to Helix responds to rolling down the bridge pickup tone on my EJ strat.   I don't own a real Plexi, so I can't make a fair comparison, but when I roll down the tone through my Mesa Nomad or Lonestar amps that EJ tone comes right out. 

 

Another thing that sounds strange to me is the sustain or decay of notes.  It's almost like a noise gate is engaged even though it isn't.  I can get a decent rhythm tone by turning the model gain up to 8 and both volumes to 10, but single note playing doesn't seem to have a natural sustain or decay to me.  This could be my crappy playing, but again, my Mesa amps don't do that. 

 

Finally, I switched out my guitar cable, and turned the guitar impedance to Auto, as suggested.  I think this made a difference because I can get the Plexi model to break up better.  Of course, this could be the fact that I removed the delay - not sure. 

 

Anyway, thanks again for all the suggestions.  I'm going to keep playing with it to try and find sounds I like.  Worst case scenario; I'll use a reactive load with real amps and have the Helix perform impulse response duty. 

[jdumoit]

Well holy crap.  I switched to my JTV-59 in straight pickup mode and the Plexi model sounds F^@king Awesome.  I mean Eddie Van Halen to the 'T'. 

 

So I figured out two things: my Gadow has some problem with the electronics and this model doesn't like single coils - even hot ones like the EJ bridge p/u.

 

Any suggestions about the single coil issue?  Can I stick some sort of preamp in front to boost the signal without coloring the tone?  What would you guys suggest?

[Leftzilla]

Well if it sounds good with the your JTV-59 mag pickups then I would say you are correct that there maybe something wrong with your Gadow electronics.  Run some of the JTV Fender Variax settings through the Helix to get its reaction to single coils.  I run a JTV 89F through my Helix and have been extremely pleased with the results.  The helix is also extremely responsive with volume roll offs.  I would use head phones or go straight to the monitors for now to make sure that the scarlet interface is not doing something unknown to color the sound or as others have suggested returning more of a dry signal than the Helix signal.

[fukuri]

Well holy crap. I switched to my JTV-59 in straight pickup mode and the Plexi model sounds F^@king Awesome. I mean Eddie Van Halen to the 'T'.

 

So I figured out two things: my Gadow has some problem with the electronics and this model doesn't like single coils - even hot ones like the EJ bridge p/u.

 

Any suggestions about the single coil issue? Can I stick some sort of preamp in front to boost the signal without coloring the tone? What would you guys suggest?

I pretty much have the Minotaur running at all times with very low gain and a bit of level as a clean boost

In fact I have it on so much I took the footswitch assignment away from it as I never switch it off

Try it :)

[jdumoit]

So after spending some more time playing with the Helix, I've come to the conclusion that most of the presets and models were made for/using humbucking pickups.  I came to the same conclusion with the Pod and Guitarport models. 

 

Regardless, the models sound excellent when using my Les Paul or Variax.  I'm definitely going to keep the Helix, but am thinking of getting an external clean boost - maybe like the Solodallas - to run on an effects loop in front of my single coil presets.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys! 

[gkinder]

So after spending some more time playing with the Helix, I've come to the conclusion that most of the presets and models were made for/using humbucking pickups.  I came to the same conclusion with the Pod and Guitarport models. 

 

Regardless, the models sound excellent when using my Les Paul or Variax.  I'm definitely going to keep the Helix, but am thinking of getting an external clean boost - maybe like the Solodallas - to run on an effects loop in front of my single coil presets.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys! 

 

 

Running single coils in my knaggs severen through my helix and it sounds great... getting killer Hendrix tone.... must be something else going on with your setup

[jdumoit]

Even lead tones?  Since the Helix was built by reverse engineering the actual circuits, the settings should react the same way in the model as on the amp, right?  With a strat, I can't get real-world configurations/settings to sound good to me. 

 

One reason might be that the response of the amp circuits is probably frequency dependent, and I'm guessing the Helix is not.  If I roll down my tone, it won't react the same way the real amp/load would. 

 

I should have said the high gain patches were made for humbuckers, since I was able to easily get some nice clean sounds.

[kensington]

Even lead tones?  Since the Helix was built by reverse engineering the actual circuits, the settings should react the same way in the model as on the amp, right?  With a strat, I can't get real-world configurations/settings to sound good to me. 

 

One reason might be that the response of the amp circuits is probably frequency dependent, and I'm guessing the Helix is not.  If I roll down my tone, it won't react the same way the real amp/load would. 

 

I should have said the high gain patches were made for humbuckers, since I was able to easily get some nice clean sounds.

Makes no difference to me. Single-coils or buckers....they sound like they should on the amp it's modeling:)

[jdumoit]

That's good to know.  I guess I'll just keep playing with it.

[TheDaveDaveDave]

Well holy crap.  I switched to my JTV-59 in straight pickup mode and the Plexi model sounds F^@king Awesome.  I mean Eddie Van Halen to the 'T'. 

 

So I figured out two things: my Gadow has some problem with the electronics and this model doesn't like single coils - even hot ones like the EJ bridge p/u.

 

Any suggestions about the single coil issue?  Can I stick some sort of preamp in front to boost the signal without coloring the tone?  What would you guys suggest?

 

 

Ya, sounds to me like something's a little wonky with the single coil PU guitar - but I'm a little confused as to whether you have one or two.    

 

Rather than stick a real pedal up front, I'd think that if you just put a compressor model with unity gain, or even a Minotaur as Fukui suggest, you'll have enough boost for the single pups.

 

Oh, also, just checking - did you also check that the "Guitar In Pad" option is off? 

[gunpointmetal]

I'm pretty impressed with the volume knob reaction, actually. There has to be something fishy between the pickups and the input.

[BigRalphN]

Ya, sounds to me like something's a little wonky with the single coil PU guitar - but I'm a little confused as to whether you have one or two.    

 

Rather than stick a real pedal up front, I'd think that if you just put a compressor model with unity gain, or even a Minotaur as Fukui suggest, you'll have enough boost for the single pups.

 

Oh, also, just checking - did you also check that the "Guitar In Pad" option is off?

 

+1 for a compressor at the beginning of your chain or use an eq for a clean boost.