Anyone Using Guitar Synth With Variax?

[MWolfkiel]

Am looking to add a guitar synth to my Dream Rig, narrowed it down to a Fishman Triple Play or a Roland GR-55. Is anyone else doing this with a Variax? If so, what problems will I encounter, what is your experience etc? Thanks in advance.

[flabergaster]

I'm running a Variax JTV69, an HD500, and GR55. I have posted quite a bit about it. If you search for my user name you'll find a good amount of info.

 

I love this setup. It truly is the dream rig, with ice cream. ;-)

 

I hope I'm never w/out it.

[Inerzia]

I'm also using a JTV, an 89 in my case, with an HD500 and a GR55. I run GR's outputs into HD's loop return inputs, (so that I only take 2 channels on the mixer)

and a midi cable from HD's out to GR's in, to change patches simultaneously. I can even control some parameters on the GR, like wha, voice on/off, effect on/off,

and pretty much every (non-system) parameter on the GR.

Problems? None, it just takes more space in front of you  :)
The main advantage of the GR over the Fishman system is that you don't have to deal with computers on stage. The GR55 is solid, stable, and very powerful.
Plus, on top of the two sample based synth layers, there's another layer of physical modeling that can do electric and acoustic guitars (not bad at all), basses, 
and modeled analog synth tones (the GR300 emulation alone is worth the price of the GR55 for me), and there's a fourth layer that uses the sound of your guitar
(from the guitar's own jack output to the GK pickup's guitar input), but I don't use it, because I don't like Roland's amp modeling at all.
Inconveniences? Well, I have two cables hanging from my guitar, instead of just one (the VDI cable), but it's not that much of a hassle.

[fr0sty]

I have the ftp installed on my jtv 69.  No issues with it fitting correctly.  Love the ftp.

[musicsingle]

Yes....... At present I have the Triple Play pickup from Fishman and the Roland GK3 mounted on my two JTV 69's. Using a Mac PB on the TP and a Roland GR 20 (driving a Ketron SD4) and Roland GR 55 on the GK3. I've been playing midi guitar since the 80's and I have used about every guitar midi controller that has been produced since that then. Most have been useable..... Some better than others.

 

The midi system that works best for me at this time is the Roland GK3 with the GR 20 and the Ketron SD4. It is the most expressive,

best and fastest tracking of all the guitar midi systems I have played. The Triple Play is OK but it is somewhat less expressive and more lifeless than GK and GR combo.

 

The GR 55 to me does not track as well as the GR 20 and I believe it is not as natural sounding as the GR 20.

 

Understand that I am mainly a live player, liking in natural instrument sounds and this is what works for me.

[clay-man]

Yes....... At present I have the Triple Play pickup from Fishman and the Roland GK3 mounted on my two JTV 69's. Using a Mac PB on the TP and a Roland GR 20 (driving a Ketron SD4) and Roland GR 55 on the GK3. I've been playing midi guitar since the 80's and I have used about every guitar midi controller that has been produced since that then. Most have been useable..... Some better than others.

 

The midi system that works best for me at this time is the Roland GK3 with the GR 20 and the Ketron SD4. It is the most expressive,

best and fastest tracking of all the guitar midi systems I have played. The Triple Play is OK but it is somewhat less expressive and more lifeless than GK and GR combo.

 

The GR 55 to me does not track as well as the GR 20 and I believe it is not as natural sounding as the GR 20.

 

Understand that I am mainly a live player, liking in natural instrument sounds and this is what works for me.

 

 

What do you mean natural sounding? The sound all depends on the synth/keyboard, not the midi controller, unless you're talking about how nice it controls the midi signals.

[musicsingle]

By natural sounds, I am referring to synths that produce sounds of real instruments (such as saxes, pianos, trumpets, etc.). Personally I have little use for synths that do not emulate these types of sound.

[Inerzia]

The GR 55 to me does not track as well as the GR 20 and I believe it is not as natural sounding as the GR 20.

 

 

Well... to each his own, I guess. I recommend to look at some demos on youtube and look for comments on both units.

Having played both units, I think it's absolutely no surprise that most of those comments you'll find are favorable to the 55

[musicsingle]

I try to make my own decisions as to playability and as I stated this is what works for me and I am not trying to persuade anyone. This is my own personal thoughts on the subject. And everyone else can have theirs. The Gr 20 is the only guitar synth that I know of that was made from scratch to be a guitar synth.

 

The GR 55 was developed from a an existing synth and the guitar engine was added to it.

 

Thru the years the newest guitar synth toy was always touted by the manufacturer to be greatest thing since sliced bread. Sometimes that was true but probably more often the reverse was true.

 

I watch the videos and demos but I make my final judgement after buying a new unit and playing it live.

[SixtiesPopMan]

The Fishman Triple Play is the best MIDI converter that I've used in terms of tracking speed and accuracy when playing external sound sources like software instruments or hardware modules.  It works great on my JTV-59 which is now my dream set up for recording MIDI.  

 

My previous favorite rig remains the Godin LGX-SA and the Roland GI-20.

 

Another current option is the MIDI Guitar app which is a software solution.   I wrote a comparison of the FTP and MIDI Guitar app here: http://www.logic-users-group.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7531

 

Regarding the GR-55, here's an interesting read, especially if you play external sound sources like virtual instruments or hardware modules:  http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.htm

[stevekc]

FWIW - I own GR-55 and two Fishman Tripleplays.

 

(and the dream rig too - JTV-59, JTV-69, HD-500X, DT-50 212)

We have bulk of important info on both here:

 

Fishman TriplePlay TOP THINGS TO KNOW
http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8427.msg60207#msg60207

 

 

GR-55 FAQ: TOP THINGS TO KNOW
http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0

[sherimehmood]

has any one installed the GR 55 pick up or the fishman triple play on a JTV 89 or a JTV89 f .. i love the concept of a synth on my guitar but i think there is not much space on my jtv 89 ... for another synth pick up...

[aeugle]

Yes I play a JTV 89 with the GR55 pickup. Perfect !

[Inerzia]

has any one installed the GR 55 pick up or the fishman triple play on a JTV 89 or a JTV89 f .. i love the concept of a synth on my guitar but i think there is not much space on my jtv 89 ... for another synth pick up...

Check my first message on this thread

[sherimehmood]

Check my first message on this thread

 

great ... thanks mate .. 

 

have you uploaded any thing on youtube or soundcloud that i can listen to ??

[Inerzia]

No, not really a big fan of it. I mean, it takes a time that I'd rather spend on other things.
Anyway, I can give you all the details you want, and even take a picture of the setup.

[SixtiesPopMan]

has any one installed the GR 55 pick up or the fishman triple play on a JTV 89 or a JTV89 f .. i love the concept of a synth on my guitar but i think there is not much space on my jtv 89 ... for another synth pick up...

Here's an image of my gorgeous Korean JTV-59 with a GK-3 pickup.  It has since been replaced by the Fishman which is the best hardware solution for triggering external MIDI sources like sound modules or virtual instruments.  There's no disputing that a guitar set up with GK-3 pickup will be able to have lightening fast triggering of the synth sounds in the GR-55 unit.

[sherimehmood]

No, not really a big fan of it. I mean, it takes a time that I'd rather spend on other things.

Anyway, I can give you all the details you want, and even take a picture of the setup.

cool would love to see how you have set it up ... if its not too much trouble you can post the pictures here... would be a reference point for people who want to do the same .. 

 

Here's an image of my gorgeous Korean JTV-59 with a GK-3 pickup.  It has since been replaced by the Fishman which is the best hardware solution for triggering external MIDI sources like sound modules or virtual instruments.  There's no disputing that a guitar set up with GK-3 pickup will be able to have lightening fast triggering of the synth sounds in the GR-55 unit.

thanks mate .. it looks awesome .. but i find the 59 has more space under the strings near the bridge than a 89 .. and more over i set it up as low as possible to make sure i can get the best action .. so if i understood correctly you have changed the gk3 with a fishman? any particular reason .. ?? are you using it with the gr 55 or just with its own s/w?? can the fishman be used with the gr55?? are there any battery issues with the fishman .. as its wireless i am guessing it would require some kind of battery to run the wireless gear .. ??

[SixtiesPopMan]

 .. so if i understood correctly you have changed the gk3 with a fishman? any particular reason .. ?? are you using it with the gr 55 or just with its own s/w?? can the fishman be used with the gr55?? are there any battery issues with the fishman .. as its wireless i am guessing it would require some kind of battery to run the wireless gear .. ??

If you're using, or planning to use the GR-55, then you absolutely need the GK-3 (some boxes come with the GK-3 included and are priced accordingly).  The GR-55 is an amazing sound source: COSM (modeled) guitars, fx, amps, and PCM sounds.

 

But if you plan to trigger other hardware sound modules or virtual synths, the GK-3/GR-55 combo is a bit of a mixed bag.  Tracking is fast and accurate say above the fifth fret.  But try playing a bass line or riff that includes the open E or A string.  The latency is unbearable.

 

In my case, I traded the GR-55 towards the JTV-59.  I was briefly using a GK-3 on the JTV to record MIDI in Logic. It was put on the shelf when the Fishman Triple Play became available.  The Fishman is the best hardware converter for playing virtual (software) instruments and what few hardware sound modules I still have.  The Fishman plus Variax is simply an amazing combo for recording audio and MIDI, or playing live which I don't do.

[sherimehmood]

If you're using, or planning to use the GR-55, then you absolutely need the GK-3 (some boxes come with the GK-3 included and are priced accordingly).  The GR-55 is an amazing sound source: COSM (modeled) guitars, fx, amps, and PCM sounds.

 

But if you plan to trigger other hardware sound modules or virtual synths, the GK-3/GR-55 combo is a bit of a mixed bag.  Tracking is fast and accurate say above the fifth fret.  But try playing a bass line or riff that includes the open E or A string.  The latency is unbearable.

 

In my case, I traded the GR-55 towards the JTV-59.  I was briefly using a GK-3 on the JTV to record MIDI in Logic. It was put on the shelf when the Fishman Triple Play became available.  The Fishman is the best hardware converter for playing virtual (software) instruments and what few hardware sound modules I still have.  The Fishman plus Variax is simply an amazing combo for recording audio and MIDI, or playing live which I don't do.

 

what other hardware can you trigger with the fishman? my only concern with the fishman is that one of the guitar techs doing a demo of the fishman also had a jtv-89 and he said it doesnt fit on his jtv therefore he put it on his godin ... it sounded awesome but the fact that it cant fit on a jtv 89 is a bummer ... the 89 is built on a shred shape more like an ibanez or a jackson both of which i used to have and sold them to get a the jtv 89 .. i dont want to have to buy a guitar just or this pick up you know .... 

 

also for live playing how do u use the fishman .. do you take the laptop with you .. ?? what kind of a foot controller would u need?

[SixtiesPopMan]

what other hardware can you trigger with the fishman? my only concern with the fishman is that one of the guitar techs doing a demo of the fishman also had a jtv-89 and he said it doesnt fit on his jtv therefore he put it on his godin ... it sounded awesome but the fact that it cant fit on a jtv 89 is a bummer ... the 89 is built on a shred shape more like an ibanez or a jackson both of which i used to have and sold them to get a the jtv 89 .. i dont want to have to buy a guitar just or this pick up you know .... 

 

also for live playing how do u use the fishman .. do you take the laptop with you .. ?? what kind of a foot controller would u need?

Here's a thread about installing a GK-3 on a JTV-89:  http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8915.0

 

I don't have a JTV-89 so I can't offer any more input.  The Fishman pick up is a bit wider than the GK-3.  Looks like it's challenging enough to fit the narrower GK-3.

 

 Regarding controllers, it really depends on the hardware that you're using.  The Fishman itself is not designed for direct connect to foot or expression pedals, rather the pedals would be connected to the hardware sound module.  

[SixtiesPopMan]

Do you use a computer? Laptop?

Then here's a whole new angle that will side-step the messiness of installing a MIDI pickup on your JTV-89.

It's a software solution. All you need is an audio interface connected to your computer, and the jack cord connecting guitar to interface.  The rest is handled via software.

http://jamorigin.com/products/midi-guitar/

[sherimehmood]

Do you use a computer? Laptop?

Then here's a whole new angle that will side-step the messiness of installing a MIDI pickup on your JTV-89.

It's a software solution. All you need is an audio interface connected to your computer, and the jack cord connecting guitar to interface.  The rest is handled via software.

http://jamorigin.com/products/midi-guitar/

 

hey mate missed your post earlier... yes i am using mostly on my computer but i am also looking for a live solution .. that i can use with my rig specially while i am busking or playing a low key gig ... i dont want to have to learn how to play another instrument therefore i am looking for a solution that will just work my guitar... 

 

I tried the GR 55 last weekend at a guitar store and i have to say i wasn't at all impressed with the tracking. it was missing notes and playing random stuff in the middle of my runs... the way i check it is i will put on a piano patch and try to shred on the neck to see how many notes it will miss .. and it was missing alot and moreover throwing in random notes in the middle of arpeggios and runs ...specially on a piano and a violin patch .. i asked the local guitar tech and he said you have to change your playing style to get the gr 55 to work properly .. while i understand you cant shred with a piano effect but its hard for me to believe that Roland would miss out on this detail and people will have to adjust their playing inorder to use the GR 55 properly.. having used the GR 55 on your guitar what is your take on this .. ?? is it really a matter of playing style or can you adjust that using the setting?? what can i try to change on the paddle to be able to make it work properly.. ?? having said that he said he will have the roland guys come in and adjust the guitar/gr55 ... i was using their stock standard fender fitted with their gk3 pick-up... which makes me further worried that if doesn't work well with the stock standard fender ... how can it work well with my jtv - 89?

 

also i tried the fishman as well a couple of weeks back for a very short time .. i was playing it on a godin .. didn't get the chance to really do a proper stress test on the pick up/guitar combo .. but my initial feel was that that fishman was more forgiving than the gr55 ... it was missing fewer notes .. and sounding very realistic .. the only problem with that is if i am buying a guitar synth for 500 bucks i want it to be portable and fishman doesnt really fall in the portable category .. do you feel the same difference in tracking in both the systems especially doing runs and vibratos?

[sherimehmood]

No, not really a big fan of it. I mean, it takes a time that I'd rather spend on other things.

Anyway, I can give you all the details you want, and even take a picture of the setup.

hey mate can you also comment on my earlier post? would love to hear your opinion on GR -55 issues that i have had in my trial of the product.. 

[Inerzia]

I was going to do just that when I saw this last post :D

Pictures will come, BTW, it's just that I haven't set it all up together for more than a week.
Most of the times I just play "regular" guitar sounds, and for that I don't need anything else other than the HD500.

About the GR55: You have to do a profile of your guitar on the unit. It can store up to six, if I remember correctly.
Both of my variaxes, a 700 and a JTV89, have a GK3 installed, positioned very similarly, and still there are differences.
Not only you have to calibrate the volume of each string, you have to actually measure the distance in millimeters between

each string's saddle and it's correspondent mini-humbucker on the GK3. This is very important. It's set and forget, though.

If you switch midi guitars during a performance you have to switch the profile on the GR as well, or it won't respond as expected.
The unit also knows different types of pickups, and will respond accordingly. I think it defaults to GK3, but it wouldn't harm to check.

Adjusting yourself to the GR? not so much as adjusting the GR to you. I recommend to look for different demos on youtube, things like
http://youtu.be/3qOrzTV07ss

Or
http://youtu.be/tmsio4QHJuI

http://youtu.be/YqKZYUExYCs 
I can assure that these videos are not made by martians. I get similar results (only I'm not that good)
If some people are not getting accurate tracking with their units it's most likely their fault.
You have to create the profile for your guitar and you have to play clean, that's all.
Hitting a string that shouldn't sound is more noticeable with synth sounds than it is with guitar sounds, because you're not so used to it.
Any unwanted noise or scratching that would just be noise on a guitar sound becomes a wrong note on a synth sound, but all of that

can be avoided with a clean technique and a well adjusted GR.

Fishman demos are very promising too, and I'm sure it plays very well, but for me, the GR is much more convenient:
Form factor, reliability of the GR vs any computer, space, price, connectivity...

[daedae]

This is kind of getting away from the point of the thread but maybe somebody will have an answer.  I have a Godin that has the 13-pin GK output already, but no synth hardware that takes that as an input and really I'm more interested in triggering MIDI anyway.  It looks like Roland used to sell the GI-20 that converts GK to MIDI, but it's out of production. As far as I can tell, I would have to buy a GR-55 or something like that that has both synth and MIDI out, but I would rather a pass through--does anybody know of a similar device that is still made?

[guitarno]

This is kind of getting away from the point of the thread but maybe somebody will have an answer.  I have a Godin that has the 13-pin GK output already, but no synth hardware that takes that as an input and really I'm more interested in triggering MIDI anyway.  It looks like Roland used to sell the GI-20 that converts GK to MIDI, but it's out of production. As far as I can tell, I would have to buy a GR-55 or something like that that has both synth and MIDI out, but I would rather a pass through--does anybody know of a similar device that is still made?

 

I suggest you go to Vguitarforums. That site has lots of information on virtual guitar rigs, and MIDI, and particularly Roland MIDI guitar interfaces. I'm sure you will find what you're looking for there.

 

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php

[Inerzia]

does anybody know of a similar device that is still made?

I also have an Axon AX50, which is the simplest expression of what you're looking for, but... I can't recommend it.

It used to track better than it does now, I don't know what's wrong with it. I tried different versions of the firmware 

since I started noticing, but I can't get it right again. That's one of the reasons why I ended up buying the GR.

As someone pointed out, the GR is not the best thing if you want to trigger external sounds, but it isn't so bad either.

I'm using GK3 pickups anyway, and your piezo equipped Godin tracks better than the GKs, so I wouldn't worry too

much about the tracking on either device, be it the Axon or the GR. Let us know when you get your hands on one.

[daedae]

I suggest you go to Vguitarforums. That site has lots of information on virtual guitar rigs, and MIDI, and particularly Roland MIDI guitar interfaces. I'm sure you will find what you're looking for there.

 

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php

Thanks, I'll check that out too...just figured I'd give it a shot here first :)

 

 

I also have an Axon AX50, which is the simplest expression of what you're looking for, but... I can't recommend it.

It used to track better than it does now, I don't know what's wrong with it. I tried different versions of the firmware 

since I started noticing, but I can't get it right again. That's one of the reasons why I ended up buying the GR.

As someone pointed out, the GR is not the best thing if you want to trigger external sounds, but it isn't so bad either.

I'm using GK3 pickups anyway, and your piezo equipped Godin tracks better than the GKs, so I wouldn't worry too

much about the tracking on either device, be it the Axon or the GR. Let us know when you get your hands on one.

 

Somebody else recommended to me the Axon AX 100, although it does look like the AX 50 is more appropriate (the 100 seems to have sounds in it like the GR55).  But at any rate, I searched some yesterday and it looks like Axons are no longer produced either.

[leemurray1]

Can anyone post pictures of th triple play mounted on a JtV 59? Did you use the adhesive mount or the one that goes under the bridge?

[ColonelForbin]

I'm also using a JTV, an 89 in my case, with an HD500 and a GR55. I run GR's outputs into HD's loop return inputs, (so that I only take 2 channels on the mixer) and a midi cable from HD's out to GR's in, to change patches simultaneously. 

 

I am working toward a very similar version of what you describe, glad to hear that is actually do-able! I was wondering about using the FX returns on the HD500 as a stereo input from the GR-55; also quite intrigued by the idea of putting a GK-3 on my JTV59. Love the idea of layering piano, brass, synth, etc on top of guitar sounds; also like the idea of running the GR-55 guitar models into the HD500 amp modeling.

 

Your concept of using the HD500 FX loop to merge the signal to to the HD500 is a solid idea, gives alot of flexibility in terms of where in the signal chain the GR-55 instrument tones / instrument models occur. I didn't want to give up the JTV to HD500 VDI connection, and I was struggling with the best way to send the GR55 signal into the HD500. 

 

I will also need to read more on how you are getting the HD500 MIDI out to control the patch changes on the GR-55. That is something that really intrigues me, and was part of the reason I went for the older GR-55 instead of the newer GP-10. That, and the GP-10 doesn't have the PCM instruments, and I really *wanted* piano, brass, etc.

 

Cheers!

[Inerzia]

That part is pretty straightforward. You just need to run a midi cable from the HD's midi output to the GR's midi input, and select the same midi channel on both units. It just happens.

Programming both units so that the HD switches voices and/or effects, and does continuous control on the GR in real time is just a few steps away.

I recommend you to use the third party GR editor that's available HERE

The GP-10 only has one thing that I wish the GR had, and that is the guitar input. Other than that, it's a reduced version of the GR.

[ColonelForbin]

That part is pretty straightforward. You just need to run a midi cable from the HD's midi output to the GR's midi input, and select the same midi channel on both units. It just happens.

Programming both units so that the HD switches voices and/or effects, and does continuous control on the GR in real time is just a few steps away.

I recommend you to use the third party GR editor that's available HERE

The GP-10 only has one thing that I wish the GR had, and that is the guitar input. Other than that, it's a reduced version of the GR.

 

Very cool! I was hopeful that they just trimmed down the GR-55 to make the GP-10; it didn't seem that the GP-10 was something new that the GR-55 couldn't do, in terms of the models, DSP, MIDI speed, latency, etc,. I know some people were saying they felt the GP-10 was faster in terms of the pitch tracking; I guess it does allow alternate tunings of the 12 string models, which I don't think the GR-55 does; but, it's not like they took it up a big step, as the HD500 is to the X3 for example.

 

Heck, if I need 12 string alternate tunings, I'll do them with the JTV.

 

I guess with the GP-10 - it's technically a Boss product, vs a Roland product (splitting hairs there), so they wanted to give a nod to the GT series, hence the regular 1/4" in. For me, the GR-55 has way more going on in realms that I was interested in - definitely excited to be able to make that MIDI connection from HD500 to GR55 - sounds like that will be pretty easy.

 

Thanks!

[grandinq]

like the idea of running the GR-55 guitar models into the HD500 amp modeling.

!

Just a word of warning about this. To get the GR-55 guitar models into the POD, the GR-55 has a Guitar Out which, as the name suggests, only carries a guitar signal. However it is quite noisy, and when you run it into a high gain amp on the POD, it generates noise and hiss which many, like me, find unusable.

[GlennDeLaune]

[snhirsch]

Just a word of warning about this. To get the GR-55 guitar models into the POD, the GR-55 has a Guitar Out which, as the name suggests, only carries a guitar signal. However it is quite noisy, and when you run it into a high gain amp on the POD, it generates noise and hiss which many, like me, find unusable.

 

Seconded.  I don't understand why the guitar out is so &*_(*^ noisy when the main outputs are actually very quiet.  There is either some very poor gain-staging happening or Roland's analog designers made a dreadful choice of op-amps.

[ZenBalancer]

The Fishman Triple Play is the best MIDI converter that I've used in terms of tracking speed and accuracy when playing external sound sources like software instruments or hardware modules. It works great on my JTV-59 which is now my dream set up for recording MIDI.

 

My previous favorite rig remains the Godin LGX-SA and the Roland GI-20.

 

Another current option is the MIDI Guitar app which is a software solution. I wrote a comparison of the FTP and MIDI Guitar app here: http://www.logic-users-group.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7531

 

Regarding the GR-55, here's an interesting read, especially if you play external sound sources like virtual instruments or hardware modules: http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.html

That last link/page to me is a very interesting read indeed! A fairly extensive GK-centric tracking-speed overview.

 

Edit: so is the comparison of "FTP" and Jamorigin Midi Guitar (v2 Beta iterration x now).

 

I read above or somewhere else that an Axon with th GK even supports pick-splitting, which only the GraphTech Ghost System I know supports. Unlike Roland's units and "FTP" so far.

 

Assuming now that pick-splitting can be achieved with a GK, then waiting on a future product that also includes improvements in latency and COSM(-like) quality, that wait is even easier now. Jamorigin, we've a deal!

 

Edit2: I'm sure I read first on VGuitarForums.com (kudos) about the Axon sensing of pick position, GK-compatible, unlike the Ghost System invasiveness for most guitars.

 

Edit3: A recent post from someone still in posession of and using an Axon with a Godin MIDI, states a very positive impression of the Jamorigin.com MIDI Guitar 2 Beta, even in comparison. But as far as I know picking position tracking isn't supported yet with the latter. At least it's not discontinued unlike the Axon, so maybe one day it will support it too. Will look forward to further developments in this market too over the next decade.

-- referenced post: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11625962-post5.html

Edited February 26, 2016 by ZenBalancer

[cruisinon2]

We have this week's winner for "Most Ancient Referenced Post", at 2 years, 6 months and 12 days! ;)

[ZenBalancer]

We have this week's winner for "Most Ancient Referenced Post", at 2 years, 6 months and 12 days! ;)

 

Some things are timeless..