How Important Is It To You To Have Access To The 1.9 And Earlier Tones In The 2.0 Firmware?

[johnnyayyy]

God, I know, ANOTHER POLL... sorry but I simply MUST know!

[mrmykl]

Acoustics...

[clay-man]

Erm, we already have a topic regarding this. Like I said, I get the love for some of the old models, but I just think it's awfully counter productive to keep the old models.

 

Do you know what will happen if we did that? People would whine about the HD models getting special features that the old models wouldn't get in the future, and it's not going to be Line 6's fault, because they're old outdated models that they can't work with anymore to provide the same features the HD models can possibly provide in the future.

 

Once again, I highly suggest that if a compromise was made, that Line6 model the same guitars as the old firmware, so we can get pristine HD versions of the tones that we've grown to love. 

 

If they did the modeling right on their end, then it's either time to literally stick to 1.9, or get over it and go to 2.0, since that's what the real guitars are supposed to sound like. If they modeled guitars incorrectly or models poor copies of vintage guitars, then it's a good argument, but they should update it to HD, not rollback to 1.9. 

It's absolutely counter productive.

[Bobbyl]

they modeled guitars incorrectly or models poor copies of vintage guitars, then it's a good argument, but they should update it to HD, not rollback to 1.9. 

It's absolutely counter productive.

I don't think they modeled poor copies of the strat and 335 for HD. I just think they modeled unusually dark mid-thick instruments for 1.9 which match my taste for tones perfectly which is why I wish they'd do model packs for HD that make these older models available.

[TheRealZap]

BWAHAHAHA....

or maybe you just happen to have a different opinion....

truth. i speak it.

 

..or maybe for some reason they released beforehand a firmware that it was not yet mature and complete ..
and IMO the result is rather disappointing, being the fw 1.9 still far superior sonically to 2.0..

[phil_m]

..or maybe for some reason they released beforehand a firmware that it was not yet mature and complete ..

and IMO the result is rather disappointing, being the fw 1.9 still far superior sonically to 2.0..

 

 

You don't even have a JTV... You're making this statement based on YouTube videos... Come on. :huh:

[arislaf]

Phil_m, for a person who doesn't have a jtv and is not sure if he want to buy a new one, the best way is to check to a store. If this is no possible, same in greece, therefore the best way to check is via youtube.And the videos that we upload (speak for the line6ers) are really valid...

 

I agree with hurghanico that ver. 1.9 is superior sonically, more useable guitars in there for me, but technology goes forward, I follow...

 

Nothing personal with you Phil_m

[TheRealZap]

you can never get the feel of an amp or guitar or anything really on a video...

if you could... porn would be MUCH more popular.

 

Phil_m, for a person who doesn't have a jtv and is not sure if he want to buy a new one, the best way is to check to a store. If this is no possible, same in greece, therefore the best way to check is via youtube.And the videos that we upload (speak for the line6ers) are really valid...

 

I agree with hurghanico that ver. 1.9 is superior sonically, more useable guitars in there for me, but technology goes forward, I follow...

 

Nothing personal with you Phil_m

[ur2funky]

I would like to vote, but no good choice...

 

I would love being able to mix between the older models and the HD...but to say the guitar is useless without both?

[jdenkevitz]

I would like to vote, but no good choice...

 

I would love being able to mix between the older models and the HD...but to say the guitar is useless without both?

 

As would I. There are things I like about the new firmware, but in several models I prefer the 1.9 variants.

 

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/JT-Variax-Allow-user-access-to-all-replaced-models-in-workbenc/524926-23508

 

Theres alot of admiration of the Emperor's new clothes here.

[Mr_Arkadin]

Theres alot of admiration of the Emperor's new clothes here.

Ahh, so you're the arbiter of absolute good tone. I could just as easily say that people are mostly conservative and hate change, preferring what they know even if it isn't as good. But I wouldn't say that as it's just people with differing opinions.

[silverhead]

...

 

Theres alot of admiration of the Emperor's new clothes here.

I happen to prefer the new models/tones. That means that we have a difference of opinion, and it doesn't make either of us right or wrong. I respect your opinion; please don't belittle mine.

[ozbadman]

As would I. There are things I like about the new firmware, but in several models I prefer the 1.9 variants.

 

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/JT-Variax-Allow-user-access-to-all-replaced-models-in-workbenc/524926-23508

 

Theres alot of admiration of the Emperor's new clothes here.

 

Totally incorrect and somewhat arrogant analogy.

 

I happen to prefer the new models/tones. That means that we have a difference of opinion, and it doesn't make either of us right or wrong. I respect your opinion; please don't belittle mine.

 

+1

[Crusty_Old_Rocker]

So, at a gig, while playing a Variax with v2.0 firmware, how many members of the audience are going to walk out and demand a refund because they prefer the sounds of the v1.9 firmware?

 

Just asking.  :P

 

Cheers,

 

Crusty

[clay-man]

So, at a gig, while playing a Variax with v2.0 firmware, how many members of the audience are going to walk out and demand a refund because they prefer the sounds of the v1.9 firmware?

 

Just asking.  :P

 

Cheers,

 

Crusty

 

LOOOL I laughed at this more than I should have. "WOW you hear that guy using those new awful 2.0 HD Variax sounds? Worst show ever."

[sdunmire]

Things like this should never be considered in a vacuum. Engineering resources are never limited and we can't possibly even conjecture on how much might be involved. Sure, it might be a simple engineering/product development change, but it could feasibly add substantial support headaches. Calls equals tech support headcount and tech support headcount equals added cost. This must be paid for somehow, you can't just make that money appear out of thin air! Since they've already sold the product, the only way to cover this expense would be to either charge for the feature as a software upgrade, or burden future customers by increasing the cost (albeit slightly) of all Variax models. (Thankfully Line 6 isn't publicly traded as you wouldn't be able to do this without invoking the holy names of Sarbanes and Oxley...) Both of these would solve the basic problem, but I would have to ask "why." Which leads me to the following...

 

Although I appreciate the intent of the poll, as someone who does this for a living I would point out that you can't just "rate," you also have to "rank." Because we need to know something this poll doesn't tell us. We don't need to know WHETHER people want this feature (as a product guy, I almost always intuitively know what features people want and which they don't.) What I don't know, and what this poll doesn't tell me is HOW MUCH do they want it? Which is to say, the respondent must be forced to decide which thing s/he wants more between multiple scenarios. If I were setting up this question, I would ask the user something along the lines of the original question, and then ask other questions to those that rated their answer "very" or "somewhat" to the effect of:

 

"In this next series of questions, we are going to ask you to rank the following features that might be available in the future"

 

Following, would be a list of choices that would include having access to non-HD models, but would also include other features that were being considered. My hunch from reading this board would be that there are at least a dozen features that would rank ahead of non-HD model access.

 

Just my $0.02.

[ozbadman]

Following, would be a list of choices that would include having access to non-HD models, but would also include other features that were being considered. My hunch from reading this board would be that there are at least a dozen features that would rank ahead of non-HD model access.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

This information is effectively available to us at ideascale, where:

 

Nylon String:                         115 Votes

New Models:                           43 Votes

Old Acoustic Models on JTV:    8 Votes

[johnbartus]

It has a whole lot more to do with the person playing the guitar, and how the modeled sounds interact with whatever effects and amplifiers that player uses. I have used both 1.9 and 2.0 at the gig. For the key sounds I rely upon in the Strat department, 2.0 did not work for me. I'm back at 1.9... when I'm not taking one of my real Strats to the gig. Sorry if this offends anyone; it is, however, MY opinion -- and I'm the one who is playing the guitar and counting on certain sounds to make ME happy so I in turn can make the audience happy. Most of them couldn't care less... but I do.

 

So, at a gig, while playing a Variax with v2.0 firmware, how many members of the audience are going to walk out and demand a refund because they prefer the sounds of the v1.9 firmware?

 

Just asking.  :P

 

Cheers,

 

Crusty

[sdunmire]

This information is effectively available to us at ideascale, where:

 

Nylon String:                         115 Votes

New Models:                           43 Votes

Old Acoustic Models on JTV:    8 Votes

 

 

Nice.  

 

Though we should keep in mind that things like IdeaScale represent a REALLY skewed perception of reality.  Beta testers and their ilk are great for identifying new opportunities, but downright dismal for determining priorities.  

[ozbadman]

Nice.  

 

Though we should keep in mind that things like IdeaScale represent a REALLY skewed perception of reality.  Beta testers and their ilk are great for identifying new opportunities, but downright dismal for determining priorities.  

 

Ummm, they're not Beta testers. Anyone who has an interest in Line 6 product direction can register and vote.

[sdunmire]

Ummm, they're not Beta testers. Anyone who has an interest in Line 6 product direction can register and vote.

 

Right, that's why I said "and their ilk."  I would paint this group with the same brush as beta testers in terms of their biases.   Point of my statement was you have to ask all customers, not just the ones that went to the trouble to seek you out.  The kind of people that participate in online bulletin boards aren't indicative of the broader market--they are "power users."  Their opinions are great, but they can't tell you what the market as a whole will do so you have to make sure you're looking at a sample that covers more than just these types of customers.

[ozbadman]

Right, that's why I said "and their ilk."  I would paint this group with the same brush as beta testers in terms of their biases.   Point of my statement was you have to ask all customers, not just the ones that went to the trouble to seek you out.  The kind of people that participate in online bulletin boards aren't indicative of the broader market--they are "power users."  Their opinions are great, but they can't tell you what the market as a whole will do so you have to make sure you're looking at a sample that covers more than just these types of customers.

 

I'm not disagreeing that there will be a bias. Beta testers are a very specific group, often hand-selected by the manufacturer. "and their ilk" would still fall into the "hand-selected" group, and worse, has a negative connotation. This is not representative of the structure of IdeaScale at all. So, while I agree with the intent of your post, this part of your argument is fallacious. I do agree that this is biased and does not necessarily represent the broader market, but no statistical sampling ever does, hence degrees of confidence.

[sdunmire]

I'm not disagreeing that there will be a bias. Beta testers are a very specific group, often hand-selected by the manufacturer. "and their ilk" would still fall into the "hand-selected" group, and worse, has a negative connotation. This is not representative of the structure of IdeaScale at all. So, while I agree with the intent of your post, this part of your argument is fallacious. I do agree that this is biased and does not necessarily represent the broader market, but no statistical sampling ever does, hence degrees of confidence.

This is far too minor a point to debate with you. You are quibbling about terminology when I had pretty much agreed with you previously and was just pointing out that idea scale is inherently biased by power users and so couldn't be looked at as anything more than a single data point with a whole lot of caveats. If you disagree with this, I suppose you can reply here, but I'm guessing the other people reading this thread would rather we took this offline. :)

[ozbadman]

This is far too minor a point to debate with you. You are quibbling about terminology when I had pretty much agreed with you previously and was just pointing out that idea scale is inherently biased by power users and so couldn't be looked at as anything more than a single data point with a whole lot of caveats. If you disagree with this, I suppose you can reply here, but I'm guessing the other people reading this thread would rather we took this offline. :)

 

Well, I don't agree it's a minor point. I also agreed with you but essentially, you somewhat dismissed the poll by saying it was just representative of "the chosen ones". I think the poll has more worth than that.

[clay-man]

It has a whole lot more to do with the person playing the guitar, and how the modeled sounds interact with whatever effects and amplifiers that player uses. I have used both 1.9 and 2.0 at the gig. For the key sounds I rely upon in the Strat department, 2.0 did not work for me. I'm back at 1.9... when I'm not taking one of my real Strats to the gig. Sorry if this offends anyone; it is, however, MY opinion -- and I'm the one who is playing the guitar and counting on certain sounds to make ME happy so I in turn can make the audience happy. Most of them couldn't care less... but I do.

 

The problem is that when we talk about the strat sound, we're expecting the traditional strat tone, and a lot of people are suggesting that the 2.0 strat doesn't sound like that.

[phil_m]

The problem is that when we talk about the strat sound, we're expecting the traditional strat tone, and a lot of people are suggesting that the 2.0 strat doesn't sound like that.

 

Well, I don't know... I suppose there could be some variation of what a traditional Strat sounds like, but it sounds pretty much like a Strat to me. Currently, I have two American Standards, an American Deluxe, a Strat Plus, and a Road Worn Player Strat available to me... So that should give me a pretty good sample size. The one that is probably most different is the Strat Plus with the Lace Sensors. The truth I think anyone would be hard-pressed to tell the difference between the sound of those and the JTV now. It probably would have been hard prior to the 2.0, to be honest with you. I think there's a tendency to imagine minor differences being bigger than they are.

 

I personally can't hear any real deficiencies in the 2.0 Strat sound, and that's my opinion. The thing I notice most about it is that Line 6 seems to have all but eliminated the last little bit of piezo quack in it. I sort of wonder if that's not what people liked about the pre-2.0 versions, though.

[sdunmire]

Well, I don't agree it's a minor point. I also agreed with you but essentially, you somewhat dismissed the poll by saying it was just representative of "the chosen ones". I think the poll has more worth than that.

 

I suppose we can agree to disagree.  I just was pointing out that it was a highly biased sample.  Not that it lacked worth.  

[Leftzilla]

Originally I felt that having access to both the 1.9 and 2.0 sounds was a little over kill but I have to say I agree that having capability to access these patches would be useful.  I upgraded my JTV89F to 2.0 and left my 59 at 1.9.  Over the week-end I gigged with my 89F on Friday and then the 59 on Saturday.  The new Strat emulation in 2.0 didn't cut it based on change in volume and tone.   Granted I have not futzed with the new work bench nor did a lot of pre re editing with the HD500x prior to the show (or rather I tweaked based on my prog band not my 80s band for whom the two gigs were with).  I personally do not have enough experience with Workbench to edit the new strat more towards the old one.  Any ideas on that front would be greatly appreciated.  Or I could leave the two guitars as is and have what works for me as I need the strat a lot for the 80s band.

 

As to the poll I would like the capability but I do not think the JTV is worthless without it.

[TheRealZap]

You're probably right... although i tend to think that the bias is in the 1.9 column.... because i think there are more 2.0 players.. that are off rocking somewhere and don't care about the poll.

and i'm basing that solely counting those that are even aware of the update... as there are surely many others rocking 1.9 without a worry.

 

Honestly if you didn't know about the update you wouldn't have a preference in the poll anyway.

i wouldn't count generation 1 owners either as the option beyond 1.9 equivalent firmware does not exist.

I also would discount those that are making their assessment purely by online media... the firmware update factors strongly in the feel of the instrument that can't be attained in this manner.

 

surely there are those that have a JTV, tried both and like 1.9... you can't please everyone... so lets just stick with accurate models, and lots of them... even new ones that may favor someones preference... but the old one's are in the rearview. fact.

 

 

I suppose we can agree to disagree.  I just was pointing out that it was a highly biased sample.  Not that it lacked worth.  

[clay-man]

Well, I don't know... I suppose there could be some variation of what a traditional Strat sounds like, but it sounds pretty much like a Strat to me. Currently, I have two American Standards, an American Deluxe, a Strat Plus, and a Road Worn Player Strat available to me... So that should give me a pretty good sample size. The one that is probably most different is the Strat Plus with the Lace Sensors. The truth I think anyone would be hard-pressed to tell the difference between the sound of those and the JTV now. It probably would have been hard prior to the 2.0, to be honest with you. I think there's a tendency to imagine minor differences being bigger than they are.

 

I personally can't hear any real deficiencies in the 2.0 Strat sound, and that's my opinion. The thing I notice most about it is that Line 6 seems to have all but eliminated the last little bit of piezo quack in it. I sort of wonder if that's not what people liked about the pre-2.0 versions, though.

 

What if the scenario is that 1.9 doesn't sound as close to a strat as 2.0, but 1.9 strat is a strat that sounds better than a real strat (in the 1.9 lover's cases)?

 

I say if that's the case, then you guys need to get used to it since we're trying to accurately model the guitars, not make a custom guitar that happens to sound better than a real strat. (wut)

 

Many of us have stated: Adjust the 2.0 strat to sound as close to the 1.9 one as much as you can. It might not be that 1.9 sounds better, but has a more appealing tone than 2.0, which can easily be fixed. If it's not bright enough, then back the pickups towards the bridge a bit.

[TheRealZap]

the primary hint i would give to someone trying to get more "quack" is to adjust the pickup volumes.. (on 2/4 position) essentially raising and lowering the pickups getting the balance to match your personal taste.

(as in one higher volume than the other... not raising/lowering them both)

[arislaf]

Guys. as for me, the new 2.0 strato sounds like the jtv 69s mags...In that case the emulation is very good, 9.5/10.Now, if thw jtv 69s is simpy a stratocaster with the line 6 brand and design, I don't know...

 

Oh, and before people put some fire to me, the video that compares the jtv mags with the new 2.0 strat is WAY accurate....

[Melissiah]

you can never get the feel of an amp or guitar or anything really on a video...

if you could... porn would be MUCH more popular.

 

Porn is the biggest money makers on the web

 

..or maybe for some reason they released beforehand a firmware that it was not yet mature and complete ..

and IMO the result is rather disappointing, being the fw 1.9 still far superior sonically to 2.0..

The best proof is that you can't connect to workbench HD through hd500 for now. So IMO it's not a total complete product like every games need patches after few weeks...

 

I can live with new strat with some tweaking on my sounds and string volume but don't tell me it's normal that small E string is so thin and empty

just that cut at 1:35 makes me feel sorry about new strat

Come on don't tell me it's an improvement :(

[ozbadman]

I can live with new strat with some tweaking on my sounds and string volume but don't tell me it's normal that small E string is so thin and empty

just that cut at 1:35 makes me feel sorry about new strat

 

Come on don't tell me it's an improvement :(

 

In this demo, it sounds to me that a significant part of the difference is that v2 seems to be recorded at a slightly lower volume than the v1.9. Part of v1.9 sounding more "beefy" is this difference in volume. Only part to be sure, but it definitely seems to be the case to my ear.

[Melissiah]

If I mic the string I use to cut my cheese I guess I'll have more body than 1:35

[ozbadman]

If I mic the string I use to cut my cheese I guess I'll have more body than 1:35

 

So it was you who cut the cheese?

[phil_m]

It's kind of funny this is still being debated... In my little test, a majority of people here were fooled by the Variax... Isn't that the point of all this modeling?

 

As far as the output, I do think 2.0 is slightly lower than 1.9. However,as far as the Strat, I've found the 2.0 Spank model is still a little hotter than my real Strat.

 

I mean the thing is, there's not necessarily one quintessential Strat sound. There will be slight variations even between the same models of the same year probably. All Line 6 can do is model the one the pick and stick with it. That's what they've done, and people should just accept it. If they don't like the stock model, they can always modify it on Workbench. Or they can revert to 1.9. No one is forced to do anything.

[Melissiah]

It's kind of funny this is still being debated...

 

Yep 1st time I see all thoses debates about a good patch. Probably because there is something wrong inside it.

 

For tonight I'll shut up and I don't want to start war and get neg-rep by 4 thousands post guys but you were the beta testers... so if you complain about it you complain about your feedbacks to line 6 and to your own work right? Or maybe you are gibson users who use strats 10% of the time... my bad I said I should shut up.

 

I did my own test after all thoses debates and I have to say that I less hate strat 2.0 than before. 2.0 is not perfect but... I have an american standard 1993 strat with DG20 active pickups with dead strings and exg and spc board. (david gilmour setup in 80-90s) So it's not a real strat I know... Curiously they have the same output  than the 2.0 (except the high E string  who still suck on 2.0) But on my strat on position 1 E string suck too, not as bad as 2.0 but as I said before it's active PU so more output normaly.

 

How can a telecaster have twice output than a strat in position one? Anyway I don't want to bash anyone who works hard but I hope for a fix soon like any online video games. If not, I'll stay with 2.0 anyway and tweak my HD500 and WBHD. And also I'll use TELE 1 instead of Strat 1 for now.

 

By the way Zap I really like your custom 335

[TheRealZap]

Thank you! i often wonder if anyone even tried them. Appreciate the feedback.

 

By the way Zap I really like your custom 335

[sdunmire]

So it was you who cut the cheese?

 

Man, I was too slow!  Dang.