Variax Ghost Notes?

[broker2]

I changed strings to fender super bullets 10's and set intonation .I will record with the variax on fri.13th. and see if i still have the same problem if i do i will reflash to 1.9 and check it again  cal. When i was in 1.7 i know when i turned the amp. way up the ghost note went away but since i upgraded to hd2 they wont go away no matter how loud the amp. is.This just happens in alt. tunings all the models work great in standard tuning.

[SLIDER90]

I have the JTV-69 which I purchased this past week. I found the same issue with the alt tuning.

I have connected the guitar using a 1/4" Neutrik cable and also the RJ45 cable from Line 6 to the USB

interface and all appropriate updates.

The guitar is first connected to a tuner the output is to an Acoustic amp when using the Acoustic models.

The alt tuning switch is on custom and the Pickup selector switch is on the 3rd switch.

This is a 1995 Gibson J-200 and I have it tuned to E and the sound is muddled. The g string is trying to sound the g and the g# at the same time through the amp. The tuner indicator is dropping towards the g note. When testing the note on each string in E you can hear the difference in the 5b,4e,3g# strings and when playing on the 15 and 17th fret it is quite noticeable.

I also have an PODHD500 and have tried every different connecting configuration that has been suggested and its the same result.

As a side note I changed the strings to super bullets #10. The tuners were loose and had movement and needed a 1/4 turn so they were not moving. 

 

 

[Kcharriq]

Ok, did some additional tests.

1. Recorded with Garageband 1/2 step down and full step down. Results: Recording played back perfect.

 

2. DT-25 --> Weber Mass --> headphones. No problem could not hear the ghost notes.

 

3. HD500x --> headphones . I could hear it some, but when I increased volume I no longer heard the ghost notes.

 

I'm amazed at how amplified the natural string note is, and how you can hear it.

 

Conclusion thus far, nothing is wrong with my guitar :).

 

I may not be able to use it for drop tuning because the natural string sound will drive me nuts.

I'll just retune another guitar or the JTV.

 

* Next test - Have someone play the guitar w/drop tuning in another room, while I listen to the amp!

[silverhead]

Oh, that is so strange. I recorded the guitar through a digital interface (Apogee Jam) directly into Garageband. The ghost sounds are loud and clear. This is using no magnetic pickups at all. What a mystery!! We might have to acknowledge that there is more than one phenomenon happening.

I agree - more than one phenomenon. In most cases I have seen (like the immediately previous post) these ghost notes end up being the natural acoustic vibration of the string. This is surprisingly easily picked up by the human ear, and the amplified sound has to be very (very!) loud to overwhelm it.

 

However, the pitch of the natural vibration is not transmitted over the analog outputs of the JTV (or the VDI connection). So if this is how you recorded the sound through your Apogee into Garageband then you definitely have a real issue. If, however, you recorded a mic'd amp into Apogee it is still possible that your mic picked up the pitch of the natural string vibration.

[spmartin]

O.K. let me preface this with - this is just a preliminary, but very positive, report about a fix for my ghost notes.

 

I read on another thread in this forum that some problems arose in the past with bad VDI cables, and that essentially the VDI cable is just a fancy ethernet cable. Well, I have lots of good ethernet cables around, so I hooked one up and re-flashed my guitar with the 2.0 firmware.

So far I would say the ghost notes, while in alt. tunings, are gone!!  I checked in about 5 alt. tunings and I am NOT hearing the ghost notes any longer! I'm going to do some more testing, but I am kinda astounded that it may actually be fixed. In my case it really seems that the VDI cable was screwing up the firmware installation.

 

Any others with a similar experience? I will run this by Hugo at Line 6 tech support on Monday and see what his opinion is. But for now, YIPEE!!

[Stuartwho]

I'm hesitant to share this but.....

I got open g and open e to work properly on my 89 ( a bargain for sweetwater a few weeks ago, the 89 doesn't have those turnings so you have to put them in), using the virtual capo by starting from the high e string and moving progressively down to the low e instead of the other way round (which was natural for me).

Given all the other acrobatics some of you are going through its worth a 5 minute shot.

 

As a guitarist I suck, but I've 40 plus years of software development and management experience, and whether the failure is in the chips or the code ( firmware) the system is clearly unstable. If your system is working , great.... My 10 cents is don't touch it,but if it isn't then you have to go through this process of throwing mud at walls randomly in the hope some of it sticks and fixes the issues.

 

All the little dances recommended for upgrading by line 6 show they know the software is unstable, they just don't know where gremlins live (otherwise they'd fix it, these guys are not dumb) but business is business and they need/wanted to get the code out to the customer base. This is not a condemnation of line 6, its real life in the software business.... Remember vista v 1 ( and about half the versions of oracle ever released).

 

Stu

[silverhead]

That's very good news, for you and for others who might be experiencing symptoms of flaky firmware issues. Let's hope this ends up being a fix!

[Stuartwho]

A bad cable would do it.

Stu

[spmartin]

I'm hesitant to share this but.....

I got open g and open e to work properly on my 89 ( a bargain for sweetwater a few weeks ago, the 89 doesn't have those turnings so you have to put them in), using the virtual capo by starting from the high e string and moving progressively down to the low e instead of the other way round (which was natural for me).

Given all the other acrobatics some of you are going through its worth a 5 minute shot.

 

As a guitarist I suck, but I've 40 plus years of software development and management experience, and whether the failure is in the chips or the code ( firmware) the system is clearly unstable. If your system is working , great.... My 10 cents is don't touch it,but if it isn't then you have to go through this process of throwing mud at walls randomly in the hope some of it sticks and fixes the issues.

 

All the little dances recommended for upgrading by line 6 show they know the software is unstable, they just don't know where gremlins live (otherwise they'd fix it, these guys are not dumb) but business is business and they need/wanted to get the code out to the customer base. This is not a condemnation of line 6, its real life in the software business.... Remember vista v 1 ( and about half the versions of oracle ever released).

 

Stu

Thanks Stu. That is a valuable perspective. I also monkey around with some coding and I understand the pressures of getting something to market, then fixing it based on customer feedback. You're never going to ship perfect code, but I don't like relying on the customers, who have paid good money to be our "beta testers". I think this product should have gone through more extensive QC testing before shipping. Imagine how pissed you would be if this was happening to your USA Variax and you had a full schedule of gigs to play. But, maybe those customers get treated differently... who knows?

[Charlie_Watt]

I do code for a living and I have never seen a system where reflashing changes anything.  It either works or it doesn't.  Any decent system does at least a checksum of the downloaded code before burning it to the flash.  I would be very surprised if two downloads of 2.0 yield different results if they complete successfully.

[Mr_Arkadin]

Imagine how pissed you would be if this was happening to your USA Variax and you had a full schedule of gigs to play.

If you had a full schedule of gigs to play then you'd be foolish to update any part of your rig until a quiet period. Any pro knows that.

[Crusty_Old_Rocker]

I do code for a living and I have never seen a system where reflashing changes anything. It either works or it doesn't. Any decent system does at least a checksum of the downloaded code before burning it to the flash. I would be very surprised if two downloads of 2.0 yield different results if they complete successfully.

The firmware update procedure is a bit unique in that the main part of the firmware (the “application†so to speak) is updated, separately to the models. You can have a state were the guts of the firmware will update but something could go wrong with the models. Typically, there would be an error reported late in the update process and reconnecting the guitar to Monkey will show the updated firmware version, giving the impression that the update was successful, but the modelling side of the firmware could be messed up.

 

It's a good idea to make sure that the update process completes both stages fully without any errors by ensuring that Monkey reports that the update has been successful. If you don't get that message from Monkey, then the firmware upgrade may be incomplete.

 

I had this problem occur when updating my JTV69 using the Workbench interface. Using the POD HD Pro for the update worked (even though Workbench HD only works using the interface). So, if Monkey isn't reporting a successful firmware installation, try using another device as the interface for the firmware.

 

Cheers,

 

Crusty

[snhirsch]

I do code for a living and I have never seen a system where reflashing changes anything.  It either works or it doesn't.  Any decent system does at least a checksum of the downloaded code before burning it to the flash.  I would be very surprised if two downloads of 2.0 yield different results if they complete successfully.

 

Well, I'm glad to hear someone finally say that.  I have many years of software development background - including embedded systems - and have always had trouble accepting reports to the effect that "..doing it second time fixed things".  Nothing is impossible, but I agree that any robust environment would run a checksum (if not actual CRC) on the image and throw an error on miscompare.  Beyond that, I suppose it's possible that a BSS data area (i.e. not incorporated in the firmware image) somewhere is not getting updated or cleared properly at runtime.   You cannot completely disregard the amount of anecdotal evidence that cycling down to a backlevel version and back changes the results.   

[TheRealZap]

My guess is it's not really the equivalent of regular programming code... it's more the equivilent of a sysex/midi install.... and i've seen midi uploads and dumps work less than great at a single pass...

 

I think the structure of that data changes sometimes between versions, and that's another reason that the flash sometimes works by downflashing then upflashing... because the structure to be updated needs "repaired"

anyway... that's my elementary understanding and fill in the gaps guess... not based on anything other than my personal experiences though.

[Charlie_Watt]

Then that's plain old bad design.  Downloads through any kind of interface are subject to errors.  The Download process should check and make sure that everything gets downloaded without error before updating the flash.  Everything I have worked on does this.

[phil_m]

It does seem to me that Zap is on to something. I have run into the same sort of anomalies with other manufacturer's stuff, too. Namely, I've seen some of the Strymon product have the same sort of hiccups. They're doing all their updates via sysex files and MIDI.

[guitarno]

   Well, I just opened a support ticket for this issue. I am still weeding through all the comments on this thread. There are some very interesting points being brought up by various people. Thanks to the Original Poster "spmartin" for starting this discussion. :) And for posting the audio samples! :)

 

   This is really a maddening issue. I really love the guitar models & the fact that you can have alternate tunings instantly available. I really want to make this work & be practical for live performance. In my case, for the altered tunings at least, I would be playing them in very small venues where extreme volume levels are just not practical.

 

   I also recorded samples to document this problem. I did some recordings direct to a DAW, trying to document this, but the effect is significantly less apparent when recorded direct. I was amazed at how much less actually, because it is so apparent, even at relatively loud volume levels in the room. On at least a couple of recordings, on some tunings, you can hear that when playing one string, there are multiple notes being produced. The 2^nd (note other than the intended “Altered†note) is at a lower volume but still audible.

 

  This issue is more pronounced with some tunings, and also more of an issue with certain guitar models more than others. It also seems to be more apparent in the upper 2 strings (Top “Eâ€, and “B†strings).

 

  There may be other factors at play here also. Maybe there are sympathetic vibrations & resonances happening that are reinforcing the “bad†notes making them louder than they would otherwise be.

 

  I have rolled-back the firmware version to 1.7, and am trying to see if this is less apparent in earlier firmware versions. I don’t know if this is a software, or firmware, or hardware issue at this point, or if there is a possible solution or not, but I wanted to be on record that I am having an issue with it. I will have to try to see if the "VDI Cable" is an issue. I ordered a homemade flexible VDI Cable built by Dunkin_Dal on this forum. Maybe that will make a difference. So using a better cable when you do the firmware update is the key? I'll have to re-read that post.

 

   I was also concerned that maybe this particular JTV is defective. I just bought this JTV from the local GC, and with their 30 day return policy, if I have a defective instrument, I was thinking maybe I should return it. I really don't want to though. I love the guitar and the models. I also love the tunings, but they won't be practical until this issue gets resolved.

[guitarno]

O.K. let me preface this with - this is just a preliminary, but very positive, report about a fix for my ghost notes.

 

I read on another thread in this forum that some problems arose in the past with bad VDI cables, and that essentially the VDI cable is just a fancy ethernet cable. Well, I have lots of good ethernet cables around, so I hooked one up and re-flashed my guitar with the 2.0 firmware.

So far I would say the ghost notes, while in alt. tunings, are gone!!  I checked in about 5 alt. tunings and I am NOT hearing the ghost notes any longer! I'm going to do some more testing, but I am kinda astounded that it may actually be fixed. In my case it really seems that the VDI cable was screwing up the firmware installation.

 

Any others with a similar experience? I will run this by Hugo at Line 6 tech support on Monday and see what his opinion is. But for now, YIPEE!!

I will definitely have to try this. I will swap out a regular ethernet (cat5) cable and try re-flashing the firmware tonight. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed till then. :unsure:

[spmartin]

I will definitely have to try this. I will swap out a regular ethernet (cat5) cable and try re-flashing the firmware tonight. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed till then. :unsure:

Good luck Guitarno. I bought mine from Sweetwater, who has the same 30 day return policy. I have been in touch with my rep. I've had it about 10 days. I think Line 6 will step up and make sure we have guitars that work - whether that means swapping out parts, or providing a new guitar. I just hope they do it soon!

An update. My guitar sound much, much better, but I still hear some faint ghost notes in some tunings on the high B & E strings. But, it is very minor and I could probably live with it. The concern I have is that the system (software or hardware) is flaky, and what is going to happen during the next firmware update??

[guitarno]

Thanks! I appreciate all your input & posting your findings here on the forums. Hopefully my results with the new cable will mirror your own.

 

   I know what you mean on the concern about a "flaky" system. You always want as solid & trustworthy a system as you can put together for performing. I have enough to think about with the music. I don't really want to have to worry if something is going to go wonky with the gear in the middle of a song. I actually was debating putting together a completely computer based system, but I wasn't confident in depending on a laptop computer not to freeze up at an inopportune moment. Somehow I feel better about a dedicated piece of musical hardware, but it's kind of the same thing, the HD500X is a specialized computer in a box. Now we even have the computer inside the guitar! It's a brave new world! Hopefully in the long run, this will all work out to be pretty stable & dependable.

[broker2]

hi guys about the ghost notes in alt. tuning i only hear them on the high e and b strings.  cal

[guitarno]

   Yeah, it seems that most people notice it more on the top 2 strings. Seems to me to be worse on some combinations of guitar models & tunings. There's a lot of combinations of those 2 options, so I haven't tried all combinations yet. Doesn't seem to be a problem for me on Drop-D tuning, regardless of which model I use, but that tuning only changes the bottom E string. DADGAD tuning seems to be a problem with a lot of models - maybe all of them. Still trying them all out.

[spmartin]

   Yeah, it seems that most people notice it more on the top 2 strings. Seems to me to be worse on some combinations of guitar models & tunings. There's a lot of combinations of those 2 options, so I haven't tried all combinations yet. Doesn't seem to be a problem for me on Drop-D tuning, regardless of which model I use, but that tuning only changes the bottom E string. DADGAD tuning seems to be a problem with a lot of models - maybe all of them. Still trying them all out.

I don't know if you're up for it, but documenting what you find as you go through the various models and alt. tunings might be helpful to forum members and Line6.

[guitarno]

Well, I don't know how much time it would take to go through all the combinations of models & tunings, but I can give it a try. So far I have been bouncing around a lot and not checking things systematically. I'll try to go through things a little more thoroughly and jot down notes on which combinations I find problematic.

[robdog03]

I have a Godin Multiac nylon with synth access, and a Roland guitar synth. I'm very familiar with the phenomenon of hearing the acoustic sound of the strings while the synth is playing a different note or tone. That's not the problem with my Variax.

 

With my JTV-59, the tunings worked perfectly when I first got it, and also after the 2.0 FW update.

 

The problem started when I edited one of the tunings, which I had never done before.

 

Before I did that, I only heard the altered note in the monitors or headphones. I had played the guitar quite a bit in BLUES G and BARITONE, so I have a good sense of how it sounds and feels; that was what motivated me to try tweaking a tuning. :)

 

As soon as I downloaded the edited tuning, I began hearing both the altered note from the tuning and the actual string note -- on ALL tunings, including factory ones that I had not changed. So with my Variax, at least, there was a very specific trigger event.

 

I think it's a software bug that is only triggered under certain circumstances (or combinations of circumstances).

 

Some people don't encounter it at all. Others experience it on multiple FW versions, with both the original and the "HD" models. To me, that sounds like the bug is not in the actual guitar models.

 

My guess is that the bug is in the tuning algorithms, which are not necessarily updated in any given FW version. Another possibility is that the bug is in the routines that read and write the tuning data to/from the non-volatile memory in the guitar.

 

My $0.02.

 

-Rob

[herimusic]

That makes totally sense, Rob!

 

I remember I was creating a new Alt Tuning for the first time ever (for the Acoustic Models so that I can play it in Standard Tuning because i Drop Tune the guitar physically...) the same time I experienced those Ghost Notes for the first time :o  I am 100% sure with this!

That could be the answer because I never heard it befor because that was the first time i edited Alt Tuning in the Workbench Software!

 

 

So, Line6, please read the Thread and do something...  B)

 

 

P.S.:  I tried several other Ethernet cables as stated above and it didn't work for me  :(

[spmartin]

Just to give you an update on ghost notes. I spoke for the second time today with Hugo at Line 6. He has listened to recordings I have provided to him that are done directly into Garageband using a digital interface (Apogee MiC).

I played in order:

1. six strings with magnetic pickups (sounds fine)
2. six strings with piezo pickup in Standard tuning (sounds fine)
3. six strings with piezo pickup in DADGAD (3 ghost notes)
4 six strings with piezo pickup in Blues G (2 ghost notes, High B, E)

 

He acknowledged that he and his team are aware of the issue, i.e. it is REAL. He said he is meeting with his product specialist team on Thursday, where they will discuss this issue. I will reconnect with him on Friday, and see what they have discussed and maybe get some potential remedies. Cross your fingers!

 

BTW, I just remembered. Hugo said that he and his team read the forum and gather good information about problems like ours. So, just know that the posts on here are helpful to them in their quest to solve problems.

[corvay]

I noticed the other day I was having some tuning problems too. So I started reading this thread, it also seemed to have occurred after I had creating a couple of extra custom presets with their own tuning.

 

I had a bit of a play around in workbench tonight and noticed my drop D tuning had dropped to the high e string. A bit strange so I fixed the patch and uploaded, but I was still having problems. looking around I clicked on the parallel pitch something I'd played with at the same time trying out 6 string versions of the twelve string models and I noticed something unusual. Even though the Parallel pitch was switched off all my models seemed to pitch settings, clearing this then uploading solved the problem. So I then created an "empty" pitch preset and cleared every 6 string guitar. Problem solved, tuning works great again. 

 

I suspect like me most people don't look at the parallel pitch tab much for the non 12 strings, especially with it being disabled. So maybe worth checking just in case it wasn't a one off.

[robdog03]

I have an open ticket on this issue. Hugo asked for a recording, and for additional details about the configuration and sequence of events. I provided those yesterday.

 

Hugo noted that he was not able to replicate the problem using the virtual capo function. From the discussion here, it sounds like Workbench HD might be a common factor.

 

Sounds like they're working on it....

 

-Rob

[broker2]

Anybody having ghost note problems on the JTV 89F or problems on the models .I am interested in buying this model and would like to know if anybody are having any problems with it .Thanks for your help  cal.

[jayson2]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, it seems that these ghost notes are only occurring if you change one of the preset tunings on the alt tuning wheel with the WB software? Anyone have any ghost note problems after saving an alternate tuned guitar to a position on the model dial?

 

Cheers,

 

jayson

[spmartin]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, it seems that these ghost notes are only occurring if you change one of the preset tunings on the alt tuning wheel with the WB software? Anyone have any ghost note problems after saving an alternate tuned guitar to a position on the model dial?

 

Cheers,

 

jayson

Jayson,

It is my understanding that we really don't know how or why the ghost notes are appearing. We are in the stage where a lot of folks are sharing their experiences, but there has not been a conclusive cause discovered yet.

 

As an update on my particular solution, today tech support from Line 6 said that upon reviewing my particular information and recordings, they felt that I had a hardware problem. They suggested that I send my guitar to a service center to be examined and fixed. 

 

I know some folks on the forum have suggested it might be a software problem, and for some it may be. We'll just have to wait and see how it shakes out after Line 6 has had a chance to review a number of units that are displaying pretty much the same phenomenon. It would be interesting to know if other guitars (by other manufacturers, i.e. Parker, PRS, Gibson, Music Man, Godin etc.) with the same or different piezo pickups experience the same problem in a percentage of their guitars. That should be fairly easy information to gather.

[silverhead]

...

 

As an update on my particular solution, today tech support from Line 6 said that upon reviewing my particular information and recordings, they felt that I had a hardware problem. They suggested that I send my guitar to a service center to be examined and fixed. 

 

I know some folks on the forum have suggested it might be a software problem,.....

 

Glad to hear that progress is being made on this. I was one who suggested it sounded like a software problem; seems we can put that theory to bed now. Thanks for posting this update. It's probably very good news for you  - means returning and replacing your guitar where you bought it (I understand that option is still available to you) might be quicker and easier than taking it in for Line 6 servicing. 

 

Again, good luck with this. I'm sure you will absolutely love your JTV in the end.

[guitarno]

   Glad to hear that you got some answer, even though that means it might have to go out for repairs. I also filled out a support ticket and sent in some audio. I haven't heard back from them yet. In my case it seemed that it was not easy to capture the issue in a recording. You could hear the extraneous notes on some tunings but at a very slight volume, it wasn't as apparent as it was in the room. There may have been a number of dynamics going on, possibly some resonances in the guitar, or sympathetic vibrations caused by the altered tuned notes re-energizing the strings on the guitar causing a kind of feedback loop that made it seem more apparent accousticly that what you would expect. It suprisingly didn't nearly as apparent in the recordings, but it was there.

 

   It is a somewhat sporadic problem for me, sometimes it has been an issue, and sometimes hardly, or not noticable. I'll have to wait to see what they recommend in my case.

[spmartin]

Because of the time it will take for Line 6 to receive, diagnose, fix and return the guitar to me - I will probably just send mine back to Sweetwater and have them replace it.  My Sweetwater rep has been stellar to work with. I can't see myself ever shopping anywhere else for new gear.

[TheRealZap]

I'd also heartily endorse sweetwater..... for those things that have the same price anywhere....

i'm still down for a deal from a competitor here and there... but buy from sweetwater if all else is equal! 

 

Because of the time it will take for Line 6 to receive, diagnose, fix and return the guitar to me - I will probably just send mine back to Sweetwater and have them replace it.  My Sweetwater rep has been stellar to work with. I can't see myself ever shopping anywhere else for new gear.

[spmartin]

I'd also heartily endorse sweetwater..... for those things that have the same price anywhere....

i'm still down for a deal from a competitor here and there... but buy from sweetwater if all else is equal! 

For me, the reps I have spoken to have always been friendly and knowledgeable. Hard combination to beat. Add to that their FREE 1 year extension on original warranties - well, that's hard to top. I wish I could become a "Prime" member like I am with Amazon! Then I could get free two day shipping!!

[TheRealZap]

LOVE amazon prime too! that's one of those competitors that i'll swing to for the right deal.

 

For me, the reps I have spoken to have always been friendly and knowledgeable. Hard combination to beat. Add to that their FREE 1 year extension on original warranties - well, that's hard to top. I wish I could become a "Prime" member like I am with Amazon! Then I could get free two day shipping!!

[spmartin]

LOVE amazon prime too! that's one of those competitors that i'll swing to for the right deal.

Hey, I just noticed, you're right below me geographically. I'm in Lexington, VA.

[TheRealZap]

My wife's from this area, we just moved this way a year ago.