Properly Setting Levels Between Presets

[cdiddy5000]

For the first time, I connected my Helix to my DAW via USB. I noticed a big difference between a patch that was set up from scratch compared to a tweaked stock preset. I went ahead and boosted my personal patch after hearing this. My question is whether or not monitoring levels like this (with assistance of a meter in Logic) is a good approach to take or if I should base my judgement off of listening. I do understand that other factors come into play here when dealing with different amp models and EQ curves. I will also add that I looked into the levels on the various blocks and they seem comparable...

[DunedinDragon]

I use a standard hand held sound meter on all of my patches to ensure they're at a consistent volume.  But that's for live performance.

[erniedenov]

Your ears are the best meter you'll ever have. Reliance on dB meters baffles me. Perceived loudness is what matters, not measured amplitude. If we perceived the loudness of all frequencies and tone qualities equally, then a meter would be useful...but that ain't the way our brains work. For a distorted tone and a clean tone at the same measured volume, the distorted tone will SEEM louder EVERY time. That being the case, the number a dB meter spits out is practically useless.

 

In complete agreement! Besides, I don't want my patches to be at the same volume, perceived or not. I try to think of how different tones would be mixed on a record. Clean rhythm is generally lower in a mix than distorted rhythm and leads are significantly louder. When I'm tweaking at home, I'm just guessing and it always takes some "on the fly" tweaking at a few gigs to get the volumes exactly where I want them. I always set up my patches so I can get immediate access to whatever will control my volume; if the channel volume is on 10 and I need more, I have the cab (or third party IR) block ready on the menu.

[zooey]

Agree also.

[cruisinon2]

Oops...accidentally deleted my post, so things will be a little out of order, oh well, lol.

 

Your ears are the best meter you'll ever have. Reliance on dB meters baffles me. Perceived loudness is what matters, not measured amplitude. If we perceived the loudness of all frequencies and tone qualities equally, then a meter would be useful...but that ain't the way our brains work. For a distorted tone and a clean tone at the same measured volume, the distorted tone will SEEM louder EVERY time. That being the case, the number a dB meter spits out is about as useful as an elevator in an outhouse.

[davidb7170]

Lol, crusinon2! My take is there is no right or wrong, proper or improper in this. Only what works for you.

 

Dave

[brue58ski]

When sending a signal directly to a mixer or recording a signal, the actual measured dB is important. Once that level is established, it is then, that you use your ears.

[cdiddy5000]

Thanks for all of your replies. I should have clarified a bit more... I certainly do not have any desire to have ALL of my patches be the same volume. What I am looking to avoid is having two different amp models, both gritty or distorted, have drastically different volumes for the purpose of rhythm playing. I think you guys would all agree if 2 different rhythm patches had a 12 db difference, it would not be a perceived volume thing. You definitely need to have similar tones that serve similar purposes be similar volumes. Just looking for the best way to get close before tweaking by ear. Not sure if USB has different output than xlr or 1/4" outs...

[cdiddy5000]

In my specific instance, I'm swapping between a Shiva and orange amp. Big change in the presets for some unknown reason. This will ultimately be used live, so these types of changes make a big difference.

 

Another thing I'm thinking about is whether I should drop the higher volume or raise the quieter one... I have room to move in either direction

[cruisinon2]

Thanks for all of your replies. I should have clarified a bit more... I certainly do not have any desire to have ALL of my patches be the same volume. What I am looking to avoid is having two different amp models, both gritty or distorted, have drastically different volumes for the purpose of rhythm playing. I think you guys would all agree if 2 different rhythm patches had a 12 db difference, it would not be a perceived volume thing. You definitely need to have similar tones that serve similar purposes be similar volumes. Just looking for the best way to get close before tweaking by ear. Not sure if USB has different output than xlr or 1/4" outs...

I've been at this a long time, both live and in the studio. Never once has it been critical, or even of passing interest for me to say, "I've been playing at 92 decibels today". We're in "Goldilocks" territory here...it's either too loud, not loud enough, or just where it needs to be. Hanging a number on it is meaningless.

 

The decibel scale is logarithmic, which makes a difference of 12 dB ENORMOUS. May as well be talking about "on" or "off". If you were deaf, you'd still know there was a problem...you wouldn't need a meter to spell it out for you.

 

Nobody wants huge volume differences between patches...that's a given. It would render them unusable for all practical applications, especially live. But, there's no mystery to leveling things out. Yet there is frequently this attempt to turn the process into a PhD dissertation, and for the life of me I will never understand why. If one is quieter than another, turn it up, or the other down...either way, problem solved. And you don't need some gadget to tell you when you've accomplished that. Just my 2 cents...

[jbuhajla]

Connect to a small mixer and monitor the meter while switching between presets/amp models. Once you get them close there, you can adjust to taste. 

[DunedinDragon]

I've been at this a long time, both live and in the studio. Never once has it been critical, or even of passing interest for me to say, "I've been playing at 92 decibels today". We're in "Goldilocks" territory here...it's either too loud, not loud enough, or just where it needs to be. Hanging a number on it is meaningless.

 

The decibel scale is logarithmic, which makes a difference of 12 dB ENORMOUS. May as well be talking about "on" or "off". If you were deaf, you'd still know there was a problem...you wouldn't need a meter to spell it out for you.

 

Nobody wants huge volume differences between patches...that's a given. It would render them unusable for all practical applications, especially live. But, there's no mystery to leveling things out. Yet there is frequently this attempt to turn the process into a PhD dissertation, and for the life of me I will never understand why. If one is quieter than another, turn it up, or the other down...either way, problem solved. And you don't need some gadget to tell you when you've accomplished that. Just my 2 cents...

 

Although I'd agree generally with what you're saying, like you I've spent my entire career either in studios or on stage, but there is some value in understanding a common reference level, or target level that best suits the performance.

 

When comparing two presets it's pretty easy to tell when one is louder, even slightly louder.  The question is, should it come down or should the other go up?  Short of playing with the rest of the band there's no real way of knowing.  That's when a common reference level comes in handy.  It's a courtesy actually to the rest of the band and to the sound man to not have to spend valuable rehearsal time tweaking a patch or knowing you can use any patch for gain staging at sound checks and there won't be any surprises later on.  It still happens occasionally because of tonal differences in the patches, but it can certainly minimize the distractions.

[cdiddy5000]

Although I'd agree generally with what you're saying, like you I've spent my entire career either in studios or on stage, but there is some value in understanding a common reference level, or target level that best suits the performance.

 

When comparing two presets it's pretty easy to tell when one is louder, even slightly louder. The question is, should it come down or should the other go up? Short of playing with the rest of the band there's no real way of knowing. That's when a common reference level comes in handy. It's a courtesy actually to the rest of the band and to the sound man to not have to spend valuable rehearsal time tweaking a patch or knowing you can use any patch for gain staging at sound checks and there won't be any surprises later on. It still happens occasionally because of tonal differences in the patches, but it can certainly minimize the distractions.

Thank you for validating my logic on this. I am definitely not the guy who just sits at home and obsesses needlessly over meaningless details (which is the vibe I got from a previous response). I gig 3-4 nights a week and have done so for the better part of the last 15 years. My reason for posting this was to see the best way to get in the ballpark with this new piece of gear. I agree that having proper gain staging going into the gig is what separates the pros from the novice. I absolutely hate showing up to a gig and have to endlessly tweak settings last minute or watching a band mate do the same. I appreciate your response.

[lawrence_Arps]

It has been said several times....the "normal"  or "unity" perceived volume should be the same as when all blocks are bypassed. If this is done for rhythm patches or snaps, there is enough headroom to have louder settings for lead.

 

So, the issue of "which patch should be turned up or down" becomes "which patch is closer to unity (all blocks bypassed)"

 

I also find it off that this is discussed as though it is different on Helix to on an analog pedal board.  It is exactly the same. Your "normal" volume is set with the pedals switched off, then you set  pedals appropriately....I have never heard of someone using a dB meter to set the volume on a drive pedal or a fuzz or a phaser .  Why would you treat Helix any differently?

[PiFromBRC]

Connect to a small mixer and monitor the meter while switching between presets/amp models. Once you get them close there, you can adjust to taste. 

Yep.  I run everything through my little Roland mixer and then set levels to cut through with a volume control at the last point before output.  It's a pain in the @$$, but better than some algorithmic plug in that will level everything off the top end. 

[DunedinDragon]

It has been said several times....the "normal"  or "unity" perceived volume should be the same as when all blocks are bypassed. If this is done for rhythm patches or snaps, there is enough headroom to have louder settings for lead.

 

So, the issue of "which patch should be turned up or down" becomes "which patch is closer to unity (all blocks bypassed)"

 

I also find it off that this is discussed as though it is different on Helix to on an analog pedal board.  It is exactly the same. Your "normal" volume is set with the pedals switched off, then you set  pedals appropriately....I have never heard of someone using a dB meter to set the volume on a drive pedal or a fuzz or a phaser .  Why would you treat Helix any differently?

 

I've heard this mentioned in a couple of cases, but I've always been skeptical whether it's true or not, or how it relates to the signal chain in the Helix.

 

If the output of a blank signal chain is unity, then why would the default amp models be so much louder?  That wouldn't make sense at all.  Particularly when some of those models well exceed 8db above that "unity" level which is generally the range in which clipping begins in most preamp situations.  That would mean a basic default amp, in many cases, would automatically clip.

 

Unity, by definitinon is supposed to mean there is no reduction or increase in the signal, so maybe that's where the idea of unity is coming from.  But it certainly appear to act or respond in the same way as unity would in most preamps.

 

Personally I'd like to get a better reading on this from Line 6 as to how the engineering works.

[cdiddy5000]

It has been said several times....the "normal" or "unity" perceived volume should be the same as when all blocks are bypassed. If this is done for rhythm patches or snaps, there is enough headroom to have louder settings for lead.

 

So, the issue of "which patch should be turned up or down" becomes "which patch is closer to unity (all blocks bypassed)"

 

I also find it off that this is discussed as though it is different on Helix to on an analog pedal board. It is exactly the same. Your "normal" volume is set with the pedals switched off, then you set pedals appropriately....I have never heard of someone using a dB meter to set the volume on a drive pedal or a fuzz or a phaser . Why would you treat Helix any differently?

I would absolutely treat it differently from an analog board into a traditional setup. Depending on the room you're in, the signal chain will appear to vary. When you are 100% in the digital realm things become more consistent. The same principle applies to a keyboard and varying patches within.

 

In regards to deciding whether or not to bring loud patches down to balance or bring quiet patches up, my reasoning for asking this is a matter of signal to noise ratio... will the unit sound better with the patches generally lower or higher in respect to the overall master volume?

[DunedinDragon]

I would absolutely treat it differently from an analog board into a traditional setup. Depending on the room you're in, the signal chain will appear to vary. When you are 100% in the digital realm things become more consistent. The same principle applies to a keyboard and varying patches within.

 

In regards to deciding whether or not to bring loud patches down to balance or bring quiet patches up, my reasoning for asking this is a matter of signal to noise ratio... will the unit sound better with the patches generally lower or higher in respect to the overall master volume?

 

According to Line 6 (and I believe it states this in the documentation), they recommend having the Helix Master Volume cranked to full open for the best signal to noise ratio.  Maybe this is where the whole empty signal chain as unity thing plays in as well.

 

It's clear to me that most people, including myself, don't keep the master volume on full.  That's for several reasons, but mainly because that's generally where I control my volume, but also because it would be unbearably loud unless I turned down my powered monitor volume to next to nothing.  If I were to maintain the volume of the signal chain at the default level of an empty chain then I could keep my master volume full on and control the overall volume level at the powered monitor (which would be a MAJOR pain).  However it may be that this type of configuration would provide the best signal to noise ratio.

 

Personally I don't get too wrapped up in the minutiae of signal to noise in a live environment or anywhere else for that matter.  The crossfeed from open mics on stage is going to negate any practical value you might get in signal to noise ratio on your channel once everything is mixed.  It could possibly be an issue if you were recording, but I think most of the signal to noise level discussions have gone the way of wow and flutter as we've moved into the digital realm. 

 

To me the bottom line is, am I getting any clipping or limiter problems due to the strength of my signal?  If not, I'm fine and I'll just concentrate on getting consistent levels across my patches and leave my Master Volume as the point at which I control my overall volume output.  It's the most practical approach for my application.

[astroturf]

Oops...accidentally deleted my post, so things will be a little out of order, oh well, lol.

 

Your ears are the best meter you'll ever have. Reliance on dB meters baffles me. Perceived loudness is what matters, not measured amplitude. If we perceived the loudness of all frequencies and tone qualities equally, then a meter would be useful...but that ain't the way our brains work. For a distorted tone and a clean tone at the same measured volume, the distorted tone will SEEM louder EVERY time. That being the case, the number a dB meter spits out is about as useful as an elevator in an outhouse.

 

I find a meter is a quick way to get the patches in the same ballpark, and then use my perceived listening volume to get them into the same dugout.

[lawrence_Arps]

I would absolutely treat it differently from an analog board into a traditional setup. Depending on the room you're in, the signal chain will appear to vary. When you are 100% in the digital realm things become more consistent. The same principle applies to a keyboard and varying patches within.

 

In regards to deciding whether or not to bring loud patches down to balance or bring quiet patches up, my reasoning for asking this is a matter of signal to noise ratio... will the unit sound better with the patches generally lower or higher in respect to the overall master volume?

Hi

not arguing here just genuinely interested in peoples varying approaches ans experiences.

when I ran an analog board I would work out my settings at home and mark then with tape.  I didnt try to go through every combination at soundcheck and customise every setting for the room (I hardly ever even varied my amp settings from room to room....maybe the amount of bass on a really boomy stage..).

So, I still cant see how being in a multiFX digital environment changes the way you set your volume...

As DunedinDragon notes I always run my Helix volume at full or very close to it.  I adjust the volume on my cab (L2Ms or L3Ms) at soundchecks then leave it alone.  DDs also right about noise levels...Helix is so quiet its never an issue (I do run the input gate on at about -50 or so).

 

I have also implemented the idea that someone posted recently..I have a gain block in each patch linked to expression 3 with a single volume knob in a box.  Its only active on Solo snapshots but lets me adjust easily the amount of boost on solos.  (I find in a 3 piece I need less boost but as the band gets bigger the solo boost needs to be more)  Also at home I dont want  much volume difference from Rhythm to Lead.  Its a great trick that i recommend.

[specracer986]

I'm wondering how you all actually adjust the volume between snapshots. I used to tweak the volume of different effects and the amp channel. But sometimes that would change the tone I had set up for the snapshot. So I started to raise or lower the volume of each snapshot at the output block. This seems to be working pretty well for me. Is this how you guys adjust volume between snapshots?

[lawrence_Arps]

I'm wondering how you all actually adjust the volume between snapshots. I used to tweak the volume of different effects and the amp channel. But sometimes that would change the tone I had set up for the snapshot. So I started to raise or lower the volume of each snapshot at the output block. This seems to be working pretty well for me. Is this how you guys adjust volume between snapshots?

 

Changing the channel volume will not change the tone....unless there is a level dependent effect after the amp.  After various trials I have gone with the variable gain block as detailed in the post above.

[jbuhajla]

I balance volume between all snaps and all presets. It's making me think of going to just 1-2 big utility presets instead of a preset per song.

[cdiddy5000]

Hi

not arguing here just genuinely interested in peoples varying approaches ans experiences.

when I ran an analog board I would work out my settings at home and mark then with tape. I didnt try to go through every combination at soundcheck and customise every setting for the room (I hardly ever even varied my amp settings from room to room....maybe the amount of bass on a really boomy stage..).

So, I still cant see how being in a multiFX digital environment changes the way you set your volume...

As DunedinDragon notes I always run my Helix volume at full or very close to it. I adjust the volume on my cab (L2Ms or L3Ms) at soundchecks then leave it alone. DDs also right about noise levels...Helix is so quiet its never an issue (I do run the input gate on at about -50 or so).

 

I have also implemented the idea that someone posted recently..I have a gain block in each patch linked to expression 3 with a single volume knob in a box. Its only active on Solo snapshots but lets me adjust easily the amount of boost on solos. (I find in a 3 piece I need less boost but as the band gets bigger the solo boost needs to be more) Also at home I dont want much volume difference from Rhythm to Lead. Its a great trick that i recommend.

Is this pedal you're referencing a DIY type of deal? If so, do you have a schematic? I know it's just a pot wired to a jack, but specs would be very helpful. I'd like to build one.

[lawrence_Arps]

Is this pedal you're referencing a DIY type of deal? If so, do you have a schematic? I know it's just a pot wired to a jack, but specs would be very helpful. I'd like to build one.

 

MarkBlack77 posted this elsewhere on the forum

 

[cdiddy5000]

MarkBlack77 posted this elsewhere on the forum

 

Awesome. Thanks for this. I read about something like this used on the fractal forum