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zolko60

Snapshot logic - "Snapshot safe" setting [SOLVED]

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I am aware of snapshot power and how to change their behavior in Global Settings. However there is one feature that I miss in this logic.
"Snapshot safe" setting for DSP block bypass. it is used in digital mixers. When you load a snapshot you can choose which channels are not affected - safe.
Choosing "snapshot safe" setting would cause no bypass state change while changing snapshots.
What do you think?

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I'm not sure we're talking the same kind of thing here.  Snapshots aren't really "loaded" other than when the preset is loaded.  It's probably more accurate to think of them as being executed within a preset.  That's a different operation than loading a scene in a digital mixer in which all the channels physically exist but some are to be ignored.  Snapshots exist only within the context of a given preset and are simply a macro operation for changing the state of blocks within that preset.  I suppose it would be possible to designate that certain blocks in the preset are to be protected so they can't be affected by a snapshot change, but I'm not sure there's any real benefit to that beyond simply not changing them in the snapshot.  I can see plenty of problems and confusion if blocks were protected and someone decided they wanted to eventually change something in a snapshot and it didn't change as they expected because it was "protected".  It seems much simpler if you don't want a block affected in a snapshot then simply leave it alone.

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1 hour ago, DunedinDragon said:

 It seems much simpler if you don't want a block affected in a snapshot then simply leave it alone.

"Leaving it alone" in the current implemetation means they are not left alone or am I missing something?
Bypass state is always affected by snapshot and it's change in one snapshot never affects another.
Let's limit the idea of "snapshot safe" to bypass state of DSP block. It's bypass state would remain unchanged with snapshot change. Eg. if you switch on Reverb DSP and make it "snapshot safe" - it will be on all the snapshots. It should be really easy to implement. Users not willing to use new functionality will not touch this option. Nothing will change for them.

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This is a feature I would like to see... basically the ability to isolate 1 or more blocks and not have them effected by the on/off state in snapshots. I can think of several reasons this would be very useful. 

 

As a simple example: My snapshots contain several core tones... but maybe I don't want my clean boost (on/off status) programmed into a snapshot. I'd prefer that to be a "stomp only" effect that is either on or off on my terms regardless of snapshot choice. Right now I either do tap dances to make sure my boost stays on, or duplicate each snapshot of my core tones with "boost on" so I can access it quickly.

 

1 hour ago, DunedinDragon said:

It seems much simpler if you don't want a block affected in a snapshot then simply leave it alone.

 

This is already the way it works for parameters.... but the on/off status of the effect cannot be "left alone". The snapshot ALWAYS dictates the on/off status. Just like all the parameters, it would be nice to have control over that so it can be "left alone". 

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Okay, I get what you're saying now.  I guess I just haven't run into the scenario in the way I use the Helix.  Normally if I'm using a stomp it's over the backdrop of a given snapshot and it's off unless i turn it on.  But it's typically turned off before switching snapshots.  Normally all of my snapshots would be defined with that block in it's off state so it can be turned on or off within any of the snapshots.

 

But I get it.  Where you can confine the state of a given block or set of blocks so they're only affected by a stomp and excluded from being manipulated by any snapshot.  It's probably worth putting it up on IdeaScale if someone can describe it accurately enough so people can get a feel for how useful it might be and vote on it.  Since it's not something I've ever run into I'm not sure how many people are affected by this.

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The owner manual is teaching users think about snapshots in "verse, bridge, chorus" pattern. It is OK for organized musicians but when it comes to improvisation, the current (2.70) snapshot implementation seems a little bit stiff.
When I get three more users interested in this thread I promise to submit it to ideascale.

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Count me as one of your three. I think it could be a useful feature. I'm not currently bothered by its absence but if it was there I might find a use for it.

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25 minutes ago, zolko60 said:

The owner manual is teaching users think about snapshots in "verse, bridge, chorus" pattern. It is OK for organized musicians but when it comes to improvisation, the current (2.70) snapshot implementation seems a little bit stiff.

 

Snapshots are a great feature... and very well done. I am 99% satisfied with it's implementation. 

Give me the option to choose which on/off states I want controlled by snapshots (as I can with any parameters) and I would be at 100% satisfaction!

 

I think I've already been counted :)

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I think there is an existing IdeaScale entry about this somewhere, as I remember someone bringing it up before. I see the usefulness, as I think there are times I could definitely use it. My only worry is that it might make the whole concept of snapshots a little more confusing for people, and I could see it tripping people up... I think there's a danger in having a lot of different parameters that affect things in ways that aren't entirely transparent. I think that's especially true when you're talking about people using third party presets and such.

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4 minutes ago, phil_m said:

I think there is an existing IdeaScale entry about this somewhere, as I remember someone bringing it up before.

Let's find it then!

4 minutes ago, phil_m said:

I think there's a danger in having a lot of different parameters that affect things in ways that aren't entirely transparent.

Of course it will be hundrets of threads about it. Albeit Helix is already rather complex computer device with steep learning curve.

 

7 minutes ago, phil_m said:

I think that's especially true when you're talking about people using third party presets and such.

It will not change anything for them. If preset makers want to use such a feature, in their best interest is to teach customers how to use it.

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20 minutes ago, phil_m said:

My only worry is that it might make the whole concept of snapshots a little more confusing for people, and I could see it tripping people up... I think there's a danger in having a lot of different parameters that affect things in ways that aren't entirely transparent.

 

May I play devils advocate :)

 

With the hundreds of options already available with snapshots, coupled with "discard/recall" in the global settings... it is already capable of confusing people, and does confuse people! A user can choose any parameter they want and assign it to be controlled by a snapshot.... except the on/off state. You get no choice with that one. I find that in itself to be confusing. 

 

IMO, the Helix already has a learning curve and I can't see this adding much to it. L6 can always choose to make it another option in the Global menu just like "recall/discard". Have the feature turned off by default so snapshots works exactly as they already do... but allow users that know what they are getting into the opportunity to turn it on. 

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I can see the potential usefulness of this, and I'd stand behind it as well.

 

To make it as seamless as possible if this were added, it would make sense for any process blocks to be 'as they are now' by default (iow, subject to being Snapshot controlled).

Then the user would have the option to enable the protected mode per block as required.

That would make it relatively straightforward on the user side at least.

I can't say for the programming side of course =]

 

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So who is the admin on ideascale to redirect repeating ideas, close doubles etc?
Is such unmoderated ideascale useful for Line6 at all?

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1 hour ago, zolko60 said:

So who is the admin on ideascale to redirect repeating ideas, close doubles etc?
Is such unmoderated ideascale useful for Line6 at all?

 

Good luck finding that out....

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1 hour ago, zolko60 said:

So who is the admin on ideascale to redirect repeating ideas, close doubles etc?
Is such unmoderated ideascale useful for Line6 at all?

 

Moderating it is a real pain in the butt from what I've been told... So, yeah, it's just kind of the mess it is right now. Line 6 does actively read it, though.

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6 hours ago, codamedia said:

This is a feature I would like to see... basically the ability to isolate 1 or more blocks and not have them effected by the on/off state in snapshots. I can think of several reasons this would be very useful. 

 

As a simple example: My snapshots contain several core tones... but maybe I don't want my clean boost (on/off status) programmed into a snapshot. I'd prefer that to be a "stomp only" effect that is either on or off on my terms regardless of snapshot choice. Right now I either do tap dances to make sure my boost stays on, or duplicate each snapshot of my core tones with "boost on" so I can access it quickly.

 

 

This is already the way it works for parameters.... but the on/off status of the effect cannot be "left alone". The snapshot ALWAYS dictates the on/off status. Just like all the parameters, it would be nice to have control over that so it can be "left alone". 

 

So it would in effect expand - to a switch by switch basis, instead of an entire preset only - the snapshot edit global for recall/discard. Keep the current global as it is, but if one wants to override that global for each switch, perhaps a couple of settings could be added to the command center for each assignable switch. There does seem to be room there for more. One encoder could determine where each switch gets its snapshot edit value from: Global/Recall/Discard. Another encoder could determine what to override: Entire Block/Parameters/Both. Could be useful.

 

3 hours ago, phil_m said:

My only worry is that it might make the whole concept of snapshots a little more confusing for people, and I could see it tripping people up... I think there's a danger in having a lot of different parameters that affect things in ways that aren't entirely transparent. I think that's especially true when you're talking about people using third party presets and such.

 

I say add the flexibility, as more or less an option (just like so much in Helix already), and don't worry about catering to a concern that wouldn't be the fault of Helix...

 

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2 hours ago, duncann said:

So it would in effect expand - to a switch by switch basis, instead of an entire preset only - the snapshot edit global for recall/discard. Keep the current global as it is, but if one wants to override that global for each switch, perhaps a couple of settings could be added to the command center for each assignable switch. There does seem to be room there for more. One encoder could determine where each switch gets its snapshot edit value from: Global/Recall/Discard. Another encoder could determine what to override: Entire Block/Parameters/Both. Could be useful.

Sounds reasonable to consider.

I have upvoted all six ideas phil_m found for me. Thank you!

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On 12/11/2018 at 3:01 PM, codamedia said:

 

May I play devils advocate :)

 

With the hundreds of options already available with snapshots, coupled with "discard/recall" in the global settings... it is already capable of confusing people, and does confuse people! A user can choose any parameter they want and assign it to be controlled by a snapshot.... except the on/off state. You get no choice with that one. I find that in itself to be confusing. 

 

IMO, the Helix already has a learning curve and I can't see this adding much to it. L6 can always choose to make it another option in the Global menu just like "recall/discard". Have the feature turned off by default so snapshots works exactly as they already do... but allow users that know what they are getting into the opportunity to turn it on. 

Sorry, but what am I missing here?  By 'on/off state' do you mean bypassed/not-bypassed?   Or is it something else?

 

Forget it - I see what you mean now.

Edited by littleeden
Dawning understanding.

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1 hour ago, littleeden said:

Sorry, but what am I missing here?  By 'on/off state' do you mean bypassed/not-bypassed?   Or is it something else?

 

I know you said you see what I mean but to confirm, YES, by on/off I do mean bypassed/not-bypassed. Sorry for the confusion in terminology :)

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It looks like per block snapsnot omission is coming, among other cool things:

 

 

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2.80. It works! Thank you!
 

Snapshot Bypass

Helix Floor, Helix Rack/Control, Helix LT, Helix Native, HX Effects, HX Stomp, HX Edit

There may be situations where you don't want Helix's snapshots to control a particular block's bypass state; that is, you'd prefer to turn it on and off manually. For example, you may want manual control of a boost pedal at any time without worrying whether a particular snapshot might turn it on or off.

Depending on your type of Helix/HX product, follow the procedure below:

  • Helix Floor/Rack/LT—Select a processing block, press ACTION, and set Knob 5 (Snapshot Bypass) to "Off" to disable snapshot control of that block's bypass state
  • HX Effects—Select a processing block, press ACTION, and press the "Snapshot Bypass" switch to disable snapshot control of that block's bypass state
  • HX Stomp—From Edit view, select a processing block, press ACTION, press PAGE >, and set Knob 3 (Snapshot Bypass) to "Off" to disable snapshot control of that block's bypass state
  • Helix Native/HX Edit—Right-click (Mac: control-click) on a processing block and uncheck "Snapshot Bypass." Alternatively, right-click (Mac: control-click) the Bypass button to uncheck "Snapshot Bypass."
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This is an excellent and exciting feature. When I use snapshots, it is generally to change multiple parameters to achieve a given level of gain. But I don’t necessarily want it to turn my tremolo and reverb on or off, for instance. I just want those to stay on or off, where ever I have them. I haven’t really embraced snapshots because of this, but with this feature it will fit the way I use Helix much better. Sweet.

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On 7/23/2019 at 1:38 PM, zolko60 said:

2.80. It works! Thank you!
 

Snapshot Bypass

Helix Floor, Helix Rack/Control, Helix LT, Helix Native, HX Effects, HX Stomp, HX Edit

There may be situations where you don't want Helix's snapshots to control a particular block's bypass state; that is, you'd prefer to turn it on and off manually. For example, you may want manual control of a boost pedal at any time without worrying whether a particular snapshot might turn it on or off.

Depending on your type of Helix/HX product, follow the procedure below:

  • Helix Floor/Rack/LT—Select a processing block, press ACTION, and set Knob 5 (Snapshot Bypass) to "Off" to disable snapshot control of that block's bypass state
  • HX Effects—Select a processing block, press ACTION, and press the "Snapshot Bypass" switch to disable snapshot control of that block's bypass state
  • HX Stomp—From Edit view, select a processing block, press ACTION, press PAGE >, and set Knob 3 (Snapshot Bypass) to "Off" to disable snapshot control of that block's bypass state
  • Helix Native/HX Edit—Right-click (Mac: control-click) on a processing block and uncheck "Snapshot Bypass." Alternatively, right-click (Mac: control-click) the Bypass button to uncheck "Snapshot Bypass."

 

Interesting behavior on this as well. If you set the 'Snapshot Bypass' = "Off" with for example your Reverb block in an active state and bypass it either on the existing snapshot or another snapshot, now when you switch to any of your snapshots it is off in all of them. This provides a convenient method to change the state for a block from active to bypass or vice-versa in all of your snapshots at one time. Handy for previously constructed presets as well as ones you are creating! This used to be a more tedious process where depending on your global snapshot behavior settings and how you set up your snapshots initially you would have to go to each of them and change the block state and save.

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I sold my Helix LT because I wasn’t able to simply turn on an effect if the mood took me, say a chorus effect for example, and have it stay on regardless of which snapshot I changed to. In the real world, if you have a separate physical chorus pedal and you turn it on, it stays on until you turn it off. 

 

Now with the 2.8 update you can apparently have blocks on/off, independent of the selected snapshot. If this is true I might consider buying another Helix  LT. 

 

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9 hours ago, Nyquist68 said:

Now with the 2.8 update you can apparently have blocks on/off, independent of the selected snapshot. If this is true I might consider buying another Helix  LT. 

 

Yes this is true... it is here

 

9 hours ago, Nyquist68 said:

I sold my Helix LT because I wasn’t able to simply turn on an effect if the mood took me, say a chorus effect for example, and have it stay on regardless of which snapshot I changed to.

 

I find it odd that with all the features of snapshots, this ONE item drove you to sell it :) It was fairly easy to work around... although I am happy the feature is now implemented.

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