Does such an amp exist?

[loydall]

Hello - first post here.

 

I appreciate there are many posts on the subject of FRFR amps but I have quite a specific setup which I'm looking for advice on.

 

I bought a HX Stomp a few days back - hooked it up into the Effects Return on my fender Bassbreaker, disabled any CAB blocks and had a play around - it sounded excellent.

 

I then tried going into front of the Bassbreaker but making sure AMP/CAB blocks were disabled - still pretty good.

 

I then tried hooking the HX Stomp up to my home stereo (it's a pretty decent setup - a fairly flat amp with some decent enough Wharfdales) - I dialled in some patches with AMP and CABs enabled (I figured the home stereo was "sort of" flat enough to try a full AMP/CAB patch. Wow - what a sound. It really felt that the HX Stomp was doing what it was supposed to do. My guitar sounded excellent - easily the best I've ever heard my guitar sound... just incredible.

 

My question - I want that sound live. I want that sound from a unit with enough power/grunt to compete with a loud drummer and another guitar going through a 4x12. I also loved the stereo sound but appreciate that might not sound the same in a live/loud situation. So - in a perfect world I want - a FRFR active speaker running maybe 2 12" speakers in stereo. I want to be able to make use of the AMP/CAB blocks in my HX Stomp. The amp needs to have stereo input from my HX Stomp. The amp needs to be loud enough to cut through a band and it needs to not weigh a tonne. It would be good if the amp wasn't massively directional either as some of the gigs we'll be playing we'll probably only do vocals through the PA so the amp needs to work on its own.

 

Does such an amp exist? 

 

That's my question.

[cruisinon2]

3 hours ago, loydall said:

Hello - first post here.

 

I appreciate there are many posts on the subject of FRFR amps but I have quite a specific setup which I'm looking for advice on.

 

I bought a HX Stomp a few days back - hooked it up into the Effects Return on my fender Bassbreaker, disabled any CAB blocks and had a play around - it sounded excellent.

 

I then tried going into front of the Bassbreaker but making sure AMP/CAB blocks were disabled - still pretty good.

 

I then tried hooking the HX Stomp up to my home stereo (it's a pretty decent setup - a fairly flat amp with some decent enough Wharfdales) - I dialled in some patches with AMP and CABs enabled (I figured the home stereo was "sort of" flat enough to try a full AMP/CAB patch. Wow - what a sound. It really felt that the HX Stomp was doing what it was supposed to do. My guitar sounded excellent - easily the best I've ever heard my guitar sound... just incredible.

 

My question - I want that sound live. I want that sound from a unit with enough power/grunt to compete with a loud drummer and another guitar going through a 4x12. I also loved the stereo sound but appreciate that might not sound the same in a live/loud situation. So - in a perfect world I want - a FRFR active speaker running maybe 2 12" speakers in stereo. I want to be able to make use of the AMP/CAB blocks in my HX Stomp. The amp needs to have stereo input from my HX Stomp. The amp needs to be loud enough to cut through a band and it needs to not weigh a tonne. It would be good if the amp wasn't massively directional either as some of the gigs we'll be playing we'll probably only do vocals through the PA so the amp needs to work on its own.

 

Does such an amp exist? 

 

That's my question.

 

I've never understood the point of wiring a single cabinet in stereo. Even if you were to find a 2x12 stereo FRFR... and there may very well be one, I honestly don't know... what good is it? Stereo FX are glorious, but there's nothing "stereo" about 2 speakers stuffed into the same box. No physical separation, no stereo. Stack two bookshelf speakers on top of each other, play the recording of your choice through them,  and tell me how much of a spread there is. Plus, true stereo is useless live anyway, because the only one in the room who'll hear everything is the guy standing dead center between your speakers. Everybody else hears L or R. It's a mess and not remotely worth the trouble. 

 

As far as being directional... that's much more of a problem with traditional guitar cabinets. Most FRFR speakers are essentially PA enclosures, designed for wider dispersion than your typical guitar cab.... especially if you put it up on a stand at ear level. So that shouldn't be much of an issue no matter what you choose. 

 

Loud isn't a problem either. The options are numerous at this point... you'll find the same ones recommended repeatedly in numerous threads on the topic. 

[talonmm]

you could purchase two frfr's and separate them with long cables a good distance apart from each other.  delays and chorus would sound fantastic!

 

[Peter]

5 hours ago, loydall said:

Does such an amp exist? 

 

That's my question.

 

I was looking for a good amp for my Helix for a long time.

Then I invested in a modular stereo FRFR amplifier system called Blueamps Spark Full Stack

http://www.blueamps.de/ampscabs/spark/  (it's a german website and I don't know if he delivers to other countries)

It is a "little" expensive, because it's custom-made. But I'm really happy with this amp.

[loydall]

2 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

I've never understood the point of wiring a single cabinet in stereo. Even if you were to find a 2x12 stereo FRFR... and there may very well be one, I honestly don't know... what good is it? Stereo FX are glorious, but there's nothing "stereo" about 2 speakers stuffed into the same box. No physical separation, no stereo. Stack two bookshelf speakers on top of each other, play the recording of your choice through them,  and tell me how much of a spread there is. Plus, true stereo is useless live anyway, because the only one in the room who'll hear everything is the guy standing dead center between your speakers. Everybody else hears L or R. It's a mess and not remotely worth the trouble. 

 

 

Yes - I do agree having 2 x 12 in the same cab is a little limiting in terms of "stereo" - however, I've heard some of the Blackstar ID Core amps run 2 X 12" and have a reasonably pleasing stereo spread so just wondered... 

[loydall]

2 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

Loud isn't a problem either. The options are numerous at this point... you'll find the same ones recommended repeatedly in numerous threads on the topic. 

 

Yes - I'm familiar with a few of the names/recommendations. So - just as a point of reference, I was using a Fender all-valve Bassbreaker 15 watt amp at band practice for a week or 2 and found it really struggled against a beat-up old Marshal Valvestate head going into a 4x12. I'm assuming one of the FRFR 112 style active speakers would give me more oomph than a 15watt valve amp? 

[loydall]

2 hours ago, talonmm said:

you could purchase two frfr's and separate them with long cables a good distance apart from each other.  delays and chorus would sound fantastic!

 

 

Yes, thanks - I think that's where I'm headed... 

[foxmeister]

If you really want a single unit that runs stereo, you might want to look at the Firehawk 1500 as an FRFR monitor, eschewing the built-in modelling.

However, I think you'd probably be better off with 2 FRFRs.

[cruisinon2]

1 hour ago, loydall said:

I'm assuming one of the FRFR 112 style active speakers would give me more oomph than a 15watt valve amp? 

 

Not necessarily... I've played 15W tube amps that could melt concrete. I recorded an entire album about 4 years ago with an Orange Dark Terror. Great little amp, runs at either 7W or 14W, and they'll hear you in the next zip code at either setting. Plus, it's very difficult to compare specs of a tube amp and a PA style speaker. First of all, spec sheets are advertising fodder, and they lie. The reported wattage of PA type speakers are invariably given at peak power, not RMS. So when it says "800W", it doesn't mean that it's 50+ times as powerful as your 15W tube amp. A value for average power output would be far more meaningful, but the number itself will be much less sexy, and won't sell as many amps.

[jerseyboy]

As posted in another FRFR thread I'm a satisfied Fishman Loudbox user for DSP electric/acoustic guitar stage work.  Very flexible inputs, tone shaping and DI.  

 

I surprised myself using the LB built-in reverb/chorus efx.  Reason being each room/stage is different response for those effects so I can readily dial-in a nice amount for each situation without getting too deep into DSP editing during heat of battle.  

[Kilrahi]

7 hours ago, loydall said:

 

My question - I want that sound live. I want that sound from a unit with enough power/grunt to compete with a loud drummer and another guitar going through a 4x12. I also loved the stereo sound but appreciate that might not sound the same in a live/loud situation. So - in a perfect world I want - a FRFR active speaker running maybe 2 12" speakers in stereo. I want to be able to make use of the AMP/CAB blocks in my HX Stomp. The amp needs to have stereo input from my HX Stomp. The amp needs to be loud enough to cut through a band and it needs to not weigh a tonne. It would be good if the amp wasn't massively directional either as some of the gigs we'll be playing we'll probably only do vocals through the PA so the amp needs to work on its own.

 

Does such an amp exist? 

 

That's my question.

 

Well . . . no. Not really.  You have too many wish lists going on there. 

 

Now, in my opinion there is a Line 6 product that comes pretty close. It's the Firehawk 1500 - an FRFR system with a pretty advanced internal stereo sound.  It's actually what I use for the Stomp and I think it's a glorious solution.  It even has its own modelling system (Firehawk i.e. legacy Line 6 effects) which you can tap into if you have a really complex signal chain going on in the Stomp (which occasionally, I do, and it works great). 

 

However, there is one caveat. It weighs a ton. I really can't envision any technology you tap into trying to do what you want to do not weighing a decent amount. Unless you start buying multiple FRFR speakers - but then you're carrying more product around. So it's a trade off either way. 

 

Firehawk 1500 is 63 pounds.  It's a beast to lug around. You really need to buy the travel case (which is excellent) to make it gig worthy. After all that you're getting pretty pricey. Best case is below:

 

Firehawk - $1000

Case - $200

Standard Music Company 15% off deal: $1020 for both. 

 

That's kind of a pricey move for the love of stereo, but it is a glorious sounding amp. When I bought it, it was to be my primary gig ready modeler, and I loved it.  Then the HX Stomp came out and I just HAD to have it and was glad the two integrated well. 

 

However, I still believe the most practical choice for Stomp users is the Powercab solution. You can even get the IR ready model and save a block in the Stomp. 

[brue58ski]

4 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

I've never understood the point of wiring a single cabinet in stereo. Even if you were to find a 2x12 stereo FRFR... and there may very well be one, I honestly don't know... what good is it? Stereo FX are glorious, but there's nothing "stereo" about 2 speakers stuffed into the same box. No physical separation, no stereo. Stack two bookshelf speakers on top of each other, play the recording of your choice through them,  and tell me how much of a spread there is. Plus, true stereo is useless live anyway, because the only one in the room who'll hear everything is the guy standing dead center between your speakers. Everybody else hears L or R. It's a mess and not remotely worth the trouble. 

 

As far as being directional... that's much more of a problem with traditional guitar cabinets. Most FRFR speakers are essentially PA enclosures, designed for wider dispersion than your typical guitar cab.... especially if you put it up on a stand at ear level. So that shouldn't be much of an issue no matter what you choose. 

 

Loud isn't a problem either. The options are numerous at this point... you'll find the same ones recommended repeatedly in numerous threads on the topic. 

 

Have you heard a real JC120 with the chorus off and then on? It has two speakers.You not only will hear a difference, you will sense it. The sound appears to expand. I don't know how else to describe it

[cruisinon2]

24 minutes ago, brue58ski said:

 

Have you heard a real JC120 with the chorus off and then on? It has two speakers.You not only will hear a difference, you will sense it. The sound appears to expand. I don't know how else to describe it

 

Not that particular amp, no... but I've heard a few others over the years, 2x12's and 4x12's wired with separate L/R inputs, and they were all underwhelming. Stereo FX are great....but if I'm going to the trouble, then I'm gonna have two speakers and plant myself in between, lol...

[jerseyboy]

Some rehearsal occasions I’ve been supplied with serious powered floor wedges to connect Helix.  Talk about eye wobbling delays and modulation effects.  Thoroughly enjoyed sitting in the middle of that stereo field.  

 

But for most live gigs stereo guitar isn’t super critical to my playing style or enjoyment.  

 

I've played em and JC120 executes a very cool chorus thing using it's stereo setup.  But it's never going to produce what I would call a wide stereo field.  

[brue58ski]

1 hour ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

Not that particular amp, no... but I've heard a few others over the years, 2x12's and 4x12's wired with separate L/R inputs, and they were all underwhelming. Stereo FX are great....but if I'm going to the trouble, then I'm gonna have two speakers and plant myself in between, lol...

 

I would say this. The effect is essentially for the guitarists ears only. But it is the coolest effect ever. If you ever get a chance to check this out on a JC120 , do so. I've only heard this particular thing on a JC120. Not that I have any kind of extensive amp/cab history. I have experienced being stereo between two cabs. Not that practical in a show situation (unless you've got roadies, a large stage, understanding bandmates and you're in the middle) but in the practice room....Yehaw!!!

[HonestOpinion]

There are several stereo amps/FRFRs available - SpaceStation, Line6 Firehawk, Mission Gemini 2, Roland Cube Street EX, Roland Jazz Chorus, etc..

 

Personally we always run a mono mix in the PA so stereo monitoring on stage is not something I typically do. Ideally I suppose if I did I would love to have two Powercab+'s so that I could position them any way necessary to get the best sound and stereo separation. A more frugal approach might opt for two PA speakers(FRFR) which could do double duty when necessary as conventional stage/mic monitors although I suppose the Powercabs could do that as well in a pinch.