tom scholz rockman sustainer tone

[pilgrimsoul]

I'm migrating away from a rather old school rig and want to know if anyone has had any luck reproducing the Tom Scholz Rockman Sustainer tone on the Pod HD Pro X?

[duncann]

I got rid of a rockman sustainor and stereo chorus delay not too long ago, which were replaced by an hd500x. While I never really tried to duplicate the tone of these things on the pod, I did try to get a similar tone at first (I'd post the patches but it was quite some time ago and I no longer have them). But then my ears migrated away from the tone of the rockman to the better sounding and more numerous possibilities of the pod. Now as I look back, I wonder what I thought was so great about the rockman. But I never specifically needed the rockman sound as I never played any Boston songs, maybe you do though.

 

A couple of times I even tried putting the sustainor in the effects loop, and in the pod's guitar input, for its unique distortion, but gave up both times because the pod's distortions are just as good, if not better.

 

I have no doubt that the pod could duplicate it though. Mostly a matter of cab and mic choice, and maybe a bit of EQ somewhere in the chain.

[tony94fcom]

that would be really cool to have a Rockman Sustainer emulation into the POD HD. this device is still popular around. people from Line 6 (if you're reading me), please think about it!

[cruisinon2]

Now as I look back, I wonder what I thought was so great about the rockman.

 

The same thing that everybody thought was wonderful about the original GameBoy...there wasn't anything else to buy that could do the same thing. "Good" due to lack of competition, lol. First generation anything is "impressive"...fast forward 20+ years, and it's "quaint".

[brue58ski]

One of the hardest tones to get is that Boston tone. I still haven't been succesful at it. If someone found one, I would be very impressed. There are some on Customtone but they don't quite cut it.

[pianoguyy]

I'm not even sure what exactly a Rockman Sustainor does since I never actually owned one. 

But I had a Rockman Soloist (80's model, not the current stuff) that I bought for the headphone usage. But it ended up being part my rig through the Rockmount - mainly for the clean w/chorus sound since I couldn't do any fx switching with it. 

 

If you are playing 'classic rock', then the Rockman distortion is great. I mean, it IS the Boston sound. 

There are a couple decent Boston tones on Customtone. 

I don't know what else you're looking for. 

 

 

 

And I wouldn't call it 'quaint' or dated. I would say that it does what it was made to do. 

My full time gear needs to do more than clean/od/dist. But how much fx options does one need when using headphones? 

[brue58ski]

There are a couple decent Boston tones on Customtone. 

I don't know what else you're looking for. 

 

 

I thought I was clear. They don't quite cut it.

[pianoguyy]

I thought I was clear. They don't quite cut it.

 

1. Decent does not equal great. 

2. If its close enough, tweak it so that it does cut it. Its either perfect, or a starting point to be made perfect. 

3. I said - I don't know what else you're looking for. That means the difference between my Soloist and his Sustainor. 

4. I wasn't referring to your post, or else I would have quoted you. Your opinion of them not cutting was stated. 

[brue58ski]

1. Decent does not equal great. 

 

Of course not. Wasn't commenting on that.

 

2. If its close enough, tweak it so that it does cut it. Its either perfect, or a starting point to be made perfect. 

 

I have done that and not gotten it.

 

3. I said - I don't know what else you're looking for. That means the difference between my Soloist and his Sustainor. 

 

Since that statement came directly after the Customtone comment, in the same paragraph, it appeared to be about that.

 

4. I wasn't referring to your post, or else I would have quoted you. Your opinion of them not cutting was stated. 

 

You didn't quote any post therefore, expecting me to figure out whose post you were referring to based on who you quoted would be ridiculous . My post was the only post that mentioned Customtone so it sure appeared like it was being referred to since it came right after your Customtone comment, I apologize if it wasn't.

[pianoguyy]

 

 

 

4. I wasn't referring to your post, or else I would have quoted you. Your opinion of them not cutting was stated. 

 

You didn't quote any post therefore, expecting me to figure out whose post you were referring to based on who you quoted would be ridiculous . My post was the only post that mentioned Customtone so it sure appeared like it was being referred to since it came right after your Customtone comment, I apologize if it wasn't.

 

 

 

Your post wasn't even there when I started writing. I got a pop up that said "new replies, click to display". So I had no clue what you wrote until after I posted -- since I didn't click it. 

 

No biggie. 

[duncann]

Here's a quick attempt at the rockman sustainor.

 

From what I remember, this whole thing has a kind of subtle parked wah quality to it. The mic was kind of a tossup between the 57 on axis or the 409. I went with the 409 because it has more bottom end that the 57 lacks. The uber cabinet seemed about the best.

 

The mid control on the amp is a good approximation of sliding the phase notcher up or down on the actual unit, and when the phase notcher button is disengaged, the lower the mid on the amp the better.

 

The pitch glide is the best way I've found to simulate the stereo chorus part of the stereo chorus/delay module. The next best way would be a stereo delay placed after the mixer with mix 100, l and r feedback 0, l time 20, and r time 35.

 

Again, most of this is going from memory, so it may not even be close. The pickups on my guitar are evolutions.

 

Sustainor.zip

[brue58ski]

Here's a quick attempt at the rockman sustainor.

 

From what I remember, this whole thing has a kind of subtle parked wah quality to it. The mic was kind of a tossup between the 57 on axis or the 409. I went with the 409 because it has more bottom end that the 57 lacks. The uber cabinet seemed about the best.

 

The mid control on the amp is a good approximation of sliding the phase notcher up or down on the actual unit, and when the phase notcher button is disengaged, the lower the mid on the amp the better.

 

The pitch glide is the best way I've found to simulate the stereo chorus part of the stereo chorus/delay module. The next best way would be a stereo delay placed after the mixer with mix 100, l and r feedback 0, l time 20, and r time 35.

 

Again, most of this is going from memory, so it may not even be close. The pickups on my guitar are evolutions.

 

 

What amp are you using?

[duncann]

I used a soldano clean with red compressor and line 6 drive in front of it, and also a q-filter. I did it like this because I remember the distortion being really smooooth and the line 6 drive is really good at smooth; there's no real edginess to it and it doesn't seem to have that trebly clean tone poking through on lower notes like the screamer and other distortions seem to have.

 

Edit:

I should also mention that I used headphones when making the patch.

And after having set the guitar aside for awhile and then trying the patch again, I should have used the 57 on axis mic. It definitely sounds closer than the 409.

Edited March 3, 2015 by duncann

[pilgrimsoul]

Thanks to everyone who replied to my post.

Special thanks to Duncann. I'll check out the zip file you posted and fiddle with it a bit.

 

pilgrimsoul

[pilgrimsoul]

Thanks duncann.

[duncann]

I quickly spent a little more time on this patch, so here's an updated version.

 

I changed the cabinet to a 1x12 blue bell. Seems to be a little closer to the correct voicing. I also added a stereo delay at the end before the room reverb. This simulates the delay part of the stereo chorus delay module, with the stereo width switch set at wide. Changed the mic to 57 on axis too.

 

 

Sustainor02.zip

[duncann]

Thanks duncann.

 

Glad to help. Make sure you check out the new one I just posted.

[Rewolf48]

There is rather a long discussion about how it was done here http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=907216

 

Definitely Q Filter, Compressor, Chorus and Delay, but distortion at least on the early albums may have been more Amp than pedal 

 

Found within that thread is this video where some bloke called Barry Goudreau briefly mentions that the first effect he ever got was a Wah pedal which if placed in a fixed position was used by both him and the other guitarist (Tom somebody) to create "their" sound. :)

 

[duncann]

Interesting thread link. Now I kind of regret getting rid of the sustainor I had. Damnit.

[maxnew40]

I had one of those back in the 80s. If I remember right that distortion tone was seriously compressed, almost zero dynamic range.

 

-Max

[cruisinon2]

I had one of those back in the 80s. If I remember right that distortion tone was seriously compressed, almost zero dynamic range.

 

-Max

 

Yep...I still have mine somewhere. Originally got it many moons ago so I could play in the dorms when I was away at school. Out of curiosity, I plugged it in about a year ago. Played for all of about 4 seconds, chuckled and put it away. But I distinctly remember marveling at it way back when...then again I was partial to MD 20/20 in those days too, that probably explains it. :P

[CrispyFunk]

@ Duncnn. those two tones are really cool, i think i just might be able to do something with them.

thank you for sharing.

[maxnew40]

Hey cruisinon2, I think you are referring the Rockman headphone device. They also produced several modules for use with a real amp, and I used to use one in my live rig back in the 80s. It was still a very compressed distortion tone on both devices if I remember right. Seemed like there was very little dynamic range, all notes come out at the same volume.

 

-Max

[mileskb]

I find this thread interesting as I'm selling much of my Rockman gear now to make way for a Helix.    I have been using Rockman gear since the begining, and every time I move away, I miss it.  Yes it really is the only way to get that "Boston" sound, but lets not forget everyone from ZZTOP and Santana and just about every other rock album in the late 80's early 90's has some Rockman Module on it somethere be it a Smart Gate, Compressor, Distortion or Sustainer...

 

Anyway, the real key and what people mostly think of as "the sound" is the Distortion mode of the Sustainer.  As I have one, I am going to use it in the loop, but I am primarily going to try and emulate it.   I think the Helix might be better suited as the Sustainer is... A Cabinet Simulator, a Compressor, a Limiter, Distortion and EQ at the very least.  Even the Ultimate Distortion pedal, that's just a single pedal with knobs like most standard distortion pedals, has those circuits built in, just pre set to get a particular sound.     

[pianoguyy]

I find this thread interesting as I'm selling much of my Rockman gear now to make way for a Helix.    

 

Helix Forum over there ===>>>

[sidroe]

I , also, had the Rockman Sustainor and the Stereo Delay rackmounted in my rig for most of the 80s and in to the mid 90s. It was a time when most all guitar players were tripping over each other trying to get THAT sound. The problem became guitarist starting chasing other sounds and the Sholtz units were more of a one trick pony. They did only one thing but they did an incredible job of it! And as stated, it is rather difficult to replicate THAT sound. Well Done, Mr. Sholtz! We salute you!

Now, here we are spending mountains of money and still chasing that ULTIMATE tone. Here's a clue. There is no such thing! LOL!!!!!

[BillBee]

That Boston tone is a beast to chase. If I remember right an article I read was pointing at pre-distortion EQ (Q?). I use a cocked wah sometimes as a filter to give a warm fuzzy simulation. Thanks for the patch Duncann I'll be sure to give it a try this weekend.

 

I always thought the Sustainer + the EQ was an awesome combo way back when.

[sidroe]

BTW, I forgot to mention I did use a Sholtz Power Soak on an early 70s Marshall Super Lead 100 stack for way too many years. Sadly, the club burned down one night and that was the end of my stack days. Everybody started moving towards the smaller combo sound and I followed. But, now here I am today, a disciple of HDs and happy to be here!

[leesteel]

BTW, I forgot to mention I did use a Sholtz Power Soak on an early 70s Marshall Super Lead 100 stack for way too many years. Sadly, the club burned down one night and that was the end of my stack days. Everybody started moving towards the smaller combo sound and I followed. But, now here I am today, a disciple of HDs and happy to be here!

 

HAHA, this is exactly what I was going to bring up.. Rockman? What? I believe the original Boston sound WAS the Tom Sholtz Power Soak and a Marshall Amp, before "Rockman" got involved. Tom designed it when he was working at Poleroid and created the whole sound of the band around it. I had a 200W Marshall Major head and 2 cabs with a power soak. It sounded incredible at a controllable club volume.

 

If L6 was going to emulate something interesting, this would be a great device to model. It was little more than a bank of high wattage resistors mounted on a heat sink with switchable paths to dial in the right amount of attenuation but it obviously had very unique sonic qualities. 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-TOM-SCHOLZ-ROCKMAN-POWER-SOAK-SPEAKER-ATTENUATOR-MODEL-PS3-AMPLIFIER-AMP-/221601960118?hash=item33988190b6

 

With regard to the interview video above, Frank Zappa used the "fixed wah" midrange approach years before Boston was thinking of it.

[sidroe]

Hey, leesteel! I can beat that one! I used an Altair Attenuator a year or so before jumping to the Sholtz unit. I still have it and have pulled it out of the closet sometimes for old times sake. My Sholtz unit, sadly, bit the dust many years ago. All I had to do to fix it was replace one of the resistors but by then we all started gravitating towards pedals for more versatility. I sure loved those attenuators though.

[leesteel]

Hey, leesteel! I can beat that one! I used an Altair Attenuator a year or so before jumping to the Sholtz unit. I still have it and have pulled it out of the closet sometimes for old times sake. My Sholtz unit, sadly, bit the dust many years ago. All I had to do to fix it was replace one of the resistors but by then we all started gravitating towards pedals for more versatility. I sure loved those attenuators though.

 

Damn, forgot about that one… I had one of those too. Altair Power Limiter?

[sidroe]

I still have the Altair. And it still works. The thing is built like a tank.