Forget modeling -- how do you like your JTV otherwise?

[smrybacki]

I am talking about fit, finish, playing feel and of course the actual analog pickups and tone using them.  If the modeling on your JTV blew apart tomorrow, would you still use your guitar, or is it useless to you with the built-in models?

For me, I would still get use out of it as my JTV59 is my ONLY humbucking equipped guitar and thoughI am a single coil guy, there are times when only a humbucker will cut it like for example playing harder rock.

[jandrio]

If the modeling on my 69s blew apart 2morrow, YES, I will still use the JTV with her factory SSS mags.
she plays really fast, resonates perfectly, her setup is excellent (absolute intonation+action), she's always in tune...
in other words a high quality MUSICAL INSTRUMENT :)

 

ps

btw, i cld then play wireless...

[Triryche]

Love my JTV-89F.

 

When I first got it I played it for over an hour before even turning on the modeling.

 

Although the neck took a bit of getting used to compared to my Schecter JL-7 FR.

[cruisinon2]

I am talking about fit, finish, playing feel and of course the actual analog pickups and tone using them.  If the modeling on your JTV blew apart tomorrow, would you still use your guitar, or is it useless to you with the built-in models?

 

For me, I would still get use out of it as my JTV59 is my ONLY humbucking equipped guitar and thoughI am a single coil guy, there are times when only a humbucker will cut it like for example playing harder rock.

 

I've got the 69...guitar itself is a decent instrument, or rather became a decent instrument once I did away with the atrocious neck. To be fair, there was nothing "wrong" with the stock neck, I just didn't like it...strictly a personal preference. I kinda like the sound of the single coils, though 90% of the time I'm using the models.

 

Basically it's a Strat with a humbucker...a design that's been cloned a millions times over, and one that Fender will charge you $1500 for, without all the DSP goodness.

[stumblinman]

No. I would maybe let my daughter use it to learn guitar. The 59 pickups are garbage compared to Gibson 57's and that's my benchmark tone. I bought this guitar to cover all the bases. If it can only cover one it might as well be a doorstop. It plays alright. Action is good. Intonation is set up right, but it needs a tuner upgrade. Goes out of tune daily. My LP's don't.

 

So in summation: No.

 

 

I'm fully trapped in the Line 6 quagmire now. In a couple years when my JTV fails (which I'm fairly confident it will, hell, they can't even make the damn LEDs light up right on every guitar) that will give me the impetus to jettison all this stuff and start over. It's the most convenient pain in the lollipop system I've ever used. I think that's a compliment though?

[stumblinman]

I've got the 69...guitar itself is a decent instrument, or rather became a decent instrument once I did away with the atrocious neck. To be fair, there was nothing "wrong" with the stock neck, I just didn't like it...strictly a personal preference. I kinda like the sound of the single coils, though 90% of the time I'm using the models.

 

Basically it's a Strat with a humbucker...a design that's been cloned a millions times over, and one that Fender will charge you $1500 for, without all the DSP goodness.

That's for an American strat. How much is the American JTV?

[Charlie_Watt]

I really like everything about my JTV69S.  I really like the neck.  Fits my small hands well.  Finish is flawless.  The 12 strings modeling still isn't that great.  Sounds a bit to fake I think.  The alternate tunings work but they are a compromise.  I don't play alternate tunings that much and I would rather use a real capo than use pitch shifted capo.  I have been considering getting a 59 but I don't really need one.

[smrybacki]

Mine was a bit of a disappointment when I first got it from a fit/finish standpoint.  The low E & A strings buzzed like crazy when I hit it hard which even after some work on my part, they still do but not as bad.  After checking it, I actually found that fret number 11 was high and needed to be buffed down.  Probably still does, but I went easy at first.  Generally, I don't play my guitars hard though so it isn't a huge issue.  The other thing is that the bridge humbucker will not always come on when selected by the 3-way switch when using a 1/4 inch cable and no modeling turned on.  I can flip the switch back and forth once or twice and then it will spring to life though.  As I don't gig with this guitar, it isn't a problem per say, but having to do that say mid-song would suck on stage.  I probably should have returned it to Sweetwater, but I maintain my own guitars and have a strong electronics background as well (I even repair my own tube amps, for example) so I thought I could hanlde it if it really went south and I'd get to buy new tools at StewMac in the bargain.

But really, this guitar feels very nice as Les Paul style guitars go and LPs are not my favorite feel -- that honor goes to the venerable Stratocaster.  This guitar is really different than my Strats and Teles in a lot of ways, so I try not to let that bias interfere with my judgement of it.  I have .010-.046 strings on my JTV whereas I have .009-.042s on all my single coil guitars for example.  Obviously the scale length is different as well and as I have very large hands, the shorter LP fretboard feels a little cramped by comparison.  But overall, for a guitar that was made on the cheap in Korea - the JTV is a great value with the modeling and a fair value without it, no doubt.

[cruisinon2]

That's for an American strat. How much is the American JTV?

 

Yes...the US JTV is comically priced, and may or may not be worth the money. Don't know...never held one. But I know how much guitar you can get for $4K, and I'd be spending my money elsewhere.

 

What I meant was, I don't think that the Korean 69's are much different in terms of quality from an American Std Strat. I've got one sitting next to my JTV. I ended up replacing that neck too, because it had a horrible dead spot...note just died, and it wasn't a fret issue. What's the difference really? They're both solid body guitars with a large routed cavity, pickups mounted to a piece of plastic, and a bolt-on neck. We could talk about hardware, but honestly I don't think the JTV bridge is any better or worse than anything I've seen on a Strat.

[smrybacki]

I really like everything about my JTV69S.  I really like the neck.  Fits my small hands well.  Finish is flawless.  The 12 strings modeling still isn't that great.  Sounds a bit to fake I think.  The alternate tunings work but they are a compromise.  I don't play alternate tunings that much and I would rather use a real capo than use pitch shifted capo.  I have been considering getting a 59 but I don't really need one.

Easy alternate tuning switching is the #1 reason I even got this guitar, truth be told, with the rest of the modeling aspect a distant second.  So many great songs I love are so much easier to play in the tunings they were designed in!  Getting comfortable using Drop D, Double Drop D, Open D, G & A (for slide!) and DAGAD tunings really breathed new life into my playing!  I really like "The Rain Song" by Led Zeppelin and you can't really play that song without it being DGCGCD which I think is GSus4 or some such.  Being able to program that into one of the tuning slots was huge for me.  That would be the biggest thing I'd miss if the digital part of my JTV craps out.

[Charlie_Watt]

I would love to see the numbers - how many US JTV's were made and sold.  I bet it's a real small number.  Way too expensive for the market that is interested in this stuff.  And the difference between the reasonably priced models and the US models is not going to be that great.  On any guitar, the neck is what makes it IMO.  You can buy a top of the line replacement neck for a JTV69 if you don't like the one that comes with it for a fraction of the price difference.  The electronics are the same.  The FW is the same.

[smrybacki]

Yes...the US JTV is comically priced, and may or may not be worth the money. Don't know...never held one. But I know how much guitar you can get for $4K, and I'd be spending my money elsewhere.

 

What I meant was, I don't think that the Korean 69's are much different in terms of quality from an American Std Strat. I've got one sitting next to my JTV. I ended up replacing that neck too, because it had a horrible dead spot...note just died, and it wasn't a fret issue. What's the difference really? They're both solid body guitars with a large routed cavity, pickups mounted to a piece of plastic, and a bolt-on neck. We could talk about hardware, but honestly I don't think the JTV bridge is any better or worse than anything I've seen on a Strat.

For $4k, I'd be getting an American Made PRS Custom 24 (in Jade!) every day of the week before I'd get an American made JTV -- and twice on Sunday.

[ricstudioc]

69 hum/sing/sing - certainly a decent build, overall attention to detail pretty good.  It was obviously well thought out in design.

 

But - I've swapped the neck for a real Strat one, frets on the original were too large for my tastes, and I'll be replacing the mags soon with Duncans, stocks are just too bright across the board for me. 

 

So would I have bought it without the modeling?  Nope.  Not that it's a bad instrument, just wouldn't interest me off the shelf as a stand alone.  But it certainly holds its own as such against lots of the competition.

[arislaf]

I think I would. After all the upgrades ( string trees, dimarzo pickups, and cosmetic changes) I woul use it. Is my only single coil guitar after all. (69S). I like it's design more than a stratocaster as a matter of fact, and except of the fretboard that is very small for me, the guitar is great.

[cruisinon2]

For $4k, I'd be getting an American Made PRS Custom 24 (in Jade!) every day of the week before I'd get an American made JTV -- and twice on Sunday.

 

For that kind of money, find a boutique luthier who really is doing everything by hand...http://phiferdesigns.com/options.htm

 

This guy machines everything himself, with the only exceptions being the tuning machines and electronics. The brass tailpiece and bridge saddles, bridge (usually ebony), pickguard (which you can barely see...it's transparent and shaped to fit the controured top). Even the knobs are wood, stacked with binding, and color matched to the whatever you've chosen for the top. Instead of the little piece of plastic that usually adorns the toggle switch, you get bone with abalone inlay on top. When he's ready to shape the neck, you go to the shop...starts out chunky, and he shapes it until you're satisfied...and hands it to you strung up so you can actually get a feel for it.

[jstrat1967]

If my Korean JTV59P goldtop was stolen, I'd buy another one as soon as I could. The fit and finish are pretty typical of nice Korean guitars. I put a Bigsby on mine, and I'm going to replace the tuners with locking tuners from Guitarfetish to help with tuning stability. Otherwise, the tuners aren't really that special. (The best tuners I've ever had were on an Agile LP, 18:1 ratio, smooth and stable for literally weeks.)

 

The nut is GraphTech, so I should never have to change that out. Strung up with .011s.

 

I'm not a P90 expert, but the pickups in this guitar make me happy. I have no desire to replace them. I can hear strat in them, and I can overdrive them into humbucker territory if I feel like it.

 

Because of the Bigsby project, I had to do a complete setup on it. But the action is low, no buzzing frets, and intonated. I couldn't be happier.

[fr0sty]

I wouldn't keep the guitar if it weren't for the modeling (jtv-69). It plays ok, but nothing stellar.

[DarrellM5]

I'd keep my JTV69 as I really like the sound of the mags.  The guitar plays fine and stays in tune.

 

I'd keep my Variax 500 as well, even though it has no mags to fall back on.  I'd just add a Fishman Tripleplay or something similar.

[sheguitarplayer2]

Ive got a JTV89 (Korean) and a JTV69US that I managed to blag for a good price on eBay.

The Korean one is a great guitar after it was professionally set up. The US 69 is an excellent guitar. 

In short I would use either of them without the modelling. 

[smrybacki]

Ive got a JTV89 (Korean) and a JTV69US that I managed to blag for a good price on eBay.

The Korean one is a great guitar after it was professionally set up. The US 69 is an excellent guitar. 

In short I would use either of them without the modelling. 

Oh man, since you are the only person I know of who has an American AND Korean made JTV -- would you by any chance care to compare and contrast these guitars?  Are the switches a lot better on the American made one?  For example in my case, the Korean made JTV59 toggle switch feels so cheap, I swear one day it'll come off in my fingers.  And the tone knob actually just falls off from time to time.  I would seriously be interested in your take on these two classes of Variax guitars and I'd bet others would be too.

[cruisinon2]

Oh man, since you are the only person I know of who has an American AND Korean made JTV -- would you by any chance care to compare and contrast these guitars? Are the switches a lot better on the American made one? For example in my case, the Korean made JTV59 toggle switch feels so cheap, I swear one day it'll come off in my fingers. And the tone knob actually just falls off from time to time. I would seriously be interested in your take on these two classes of Variax guitars and I'd bet others would be too.

Rather curious myself...

[sheguitarplayer2]

The 5 way selector on the USA is better quality than the one on the korean one. Likewise for the knobs. The US guitar is better made than my USA Stratocaster. The neck plays like butter. It feels a much better made guitar but at the price I think the korean is a nice guitar. (I got the korean for £560 B stock from Thomann. The US cost me £1100.)

[cruisinon2]

The 5 way selector on the USA is better quality than the one on the korean one. Likewise for the knobs. The US guitar is better made than my USA Stratocaster. The neck plays like butter. It feels a much better made guitar but at the price I think the korean is a nice guitar. (I got the korean for £560 B stock from Thomann. The US cost me £1100.)

 

Even at the current exchange rate, that price is a steal for a US model. The list price is about $3800.

[BigBob-Irwin]

I like my JTV59 guitar by itself and play the pickups maybe 3/4's of a gig (the other 1/4 modeled strat tele Peter Green style LP and a few slide tuning s). I have a Les Paul with replacement pickups (originally 57's) and it compares with the Les Paul tone wise if I turn the tone knob to 6 on the JTV  . I have replaced the tuners on the JTV59 for locking tuners not so much because it went out of tune but found it easier to change strings this mod  was quite a cheap upgrade and the locking tuners fitted perfectly in the same place as the old ones came out of with no drilling etc.

 

I have always played Les Paul's with 9 gauge strings due to problems with my fingers and I tried 9's on the JTV but it was so well set up I was managing with 10's so put them back on acoustically the guitar just rings as it should on any good instrument with no buzzes sometimes I play it like that if it is late at night just to practice and mess around.

[Spiderplayer7]

I don't have a JTV but I've played a Variax 700 electric in black for years now, bought it new when it first came out. That's a great guitar, really nice neck, good weight, fantastic action, stays in tune. My only issue is that the trem arm is a bit loose. I played that for many years through an X3 Live and then an HD500. Worked great, but the acoustic sounds were always a bit meh, I mean they worked, but nowhere near a real electro-acoustic or even the acoustic sounds I got from my Parker Fly Classic (until it was stolen).

 

So when I heard that Line 6 were going to release a JTV version of the Variax I was really excited, looking forward to better electric and acoustic sounds, alternate tunings on the guitar etc. Living in the UK we don't see many Variax guitars, so when my local music store got a JTV69 I rushed down, fully expecting to buy it then and there. And I can't tell you how disappointed I was. I know this won't make me popular on this forum, but I actually hated that guitar. It looked cheap with its too-bright chrome hardware, the body shape was odd, the trem only ok, but the real problem was the horrible, horrible neck. By far the nastiest neck I've felt on a guitar for years (I've played over 30 years now and owned Strats, Teles, PRSs, Gibsons etc. But the JTV69 neck was a horrible combination of narrow fretboard, flat fingerboard radius and tall frets. I left the store very disappointed.

 

And then the JTV59 came out, and a music store in Newcastle had a Korean AND a US version in. So I had a go at both. Again, weird, weird necks, ok hardware, but far too heavy. And the US one was such a disappointment for the price. AND it had a deep crack right through the lacquer on the neck joint - WTF? Even the sales guy in the store said he thought the US model was totally overpriced. I've got a PRS Custom 22, nothing fancy really (10 top and birds) but in terms of quality of build etc. it blows away that US JTV.

 

I know that some people love the JTV range but for me, just a big NO. Strangely, though, the new Standard looks pretty good - too bad I've traded my HD500 for a Tech 21 FlyRig 5 (great nearly-all-in-one solution, BTW). Maybe the Standard and the Firehawk could tempt me back to digital, who knows...

[BigBob-Irwin]

 

 

And I can't tell you how disappointed I was. I know this won't make me popular on this forum, but I actually hated that guitar.

 No you are quite right to say what you think and get what suites you. I know that a few folk on here have changed the neck on the JTV69 so can understand how you feel the JTV59 to me has a broader 50's style neck which I like but I am sure there are folk here that would prefer the slim Gibson 60's style neck however you can not change that.

 

Thank you for mentioning the Tech pedal have never heard of this before and can see that it would suite some folk very well easy to dial in. I find the Pod500x ok to dial in via studio direct when you think of a sound and know which amp you want and FX and can reasonably get near the ball park what I struggle with is getting it to sound the same with the DT25 amp and I am sure I am not alone in that. 

[Spiderplayer7]

Yeah, as I said, I really wanted to buy that JTV, but the neck was the killer for me.

 

But yes, the Tech 21 FlyRig 5 is worth looking in to. It's got a Fender-type SansAmp section (includes amp, mic and speaker emulation) with EQ and reverb, a separate adjustable boost section, Marshall-type overdrive and a delay section with tap tempo and a 'drift' knob that can sound a bit like a chorus pedal. This is all in a unit that fits in to a guitar case. I actually sold my HD500 because the FlyRig was so easy to use and sounded so great. The HD500 beats it in terms of connectivity (I need XLR outs for the gigs I play) and has a built-in tuner, and way more effects, of course, but I don't regret getting rid of it - just too complicated and too easy to get a bad sound - if you tried hard you'd struggle to get a bad sound from the FlyRig. Just my 2 cents...

[smrybacki]

The 5 way selector on the USA is better quality than the one on the korean one. Likewise for the knobs. The US guitar is better made than my USA Stratocaster. The neck plays like butter. It feels a much better made guitar but at the price I think the korean is a nice guitar. (I got the korean for £560 B stock from Thomann. The US cost me £1100.)

 

 

I don't have a JTV but I've played a Variax 700 electric in black for years now, bought it new when it first came out. That's a great guitar, really nice neck, good weight, fantastic action, stays in tune. My only issue is that the trem arm is a bit loose. I played that for many years through an X3 Live and then an HD500. Worked great, but the acoustic sounds were always a bit meh, I mean they worked, but nowhere near a real electro-acoustic or even the acoustic sounds I got from my Parker Fly Classic (until it was stolen).

 

So when I heard that Line 6 were going to release a JTV version of the Variax I was really excited, looking forward to better electric and acoustic sounds, alternate tunings on the guitar etc. Living in the UK we don't see many Variax guitars, so when my local music store got a JTV69 I rushed down, fully expecting to buy it then and there. And I can't tell you how disappointed I was. I know this won't make me popular on this forum, but I actually hated that guitar. It looked cheap with its too-bright chrome hardware, the body shape was odd, the trem only ok, but the real problem was the horrible, horrible neck. By far the nastiest neck I've felt on a guitar for years (I've played over 30 years now and owned Strats, Teles, PRSs, Gibsons etc. But the JTV69 neck was a horrible combination of narrow fretboard, flat fingerboard radius and tall frets. I left the store very disappointed.

 

And then the JTV59 came out, and a music store in Newcastle had a Korean AND a US version in. So I had a go at both. Again, weird, weird necks, ok hardware, but far too heavy. And the US one was such a disappointment for the price. AND it had a deep crack right through the lacquer on the neck joint - WTF? Even the sales guy in the store said he thought the US model was totally overpriced. I've got a PRS Custom 22, nothing fancy really (10 top and birds) but in terms of quality of build etc. it blows away that US JTV.

 

I know that some people love the JTV range but for me, just a big NO. Strangely, though, the new Standard looks pretty good - too bad I've traded my HD500 for a Tech 21 FlyRig 5 (great nearly-all-in-one solution, BTW). Maybe the Standard and the Firehawk could tempt me back to digital, who knows...

 

 

Yeah, as I said, I really wanted to buy that JTV, but the neck was the killer for me.

 

But yes, the Tech 21 FlyRig 5 is worth looking in to. It's got a Fender-type SansAmp section (includes amp, mic and speaker emulation) with EQ and reverb, a separate adjustable boost section, Marshall-type overdrive and a delay section with tap tempo and a 'drift' knob that can sound a bit like a chorus pedal. This is all in a unit that fits in to a guitar case. I actually sold my HD500 because the FlyRig was so easy to use and sounded so great. The HD500 beats it in terms of connectivity (I need XLR outs for the gigs I play) and has a built-in tuner, and way more effects, of course, but I don't regret getting rid of it - just too complicated and too easy to get a bad sound - if you tried hard you'd struggle to get a bad sound from the FlyRig. Just my 2 cents...

Thanks for the insights folks.  That FLy Rig 5 has had my attention for a while now and I need to get one I think.  I once had a Tech 21 Tri-AC that I stupidly sold off and they don't make that anymore.  The Fly Rig 5 looks like a natural extansion of that idea with Reverb and Delay to boot!  Out to play real well through one of my Power Engines too.

[Spiderplayer7]

Yes, I've got a Tri-AC (had it for years) which I'm trying out at home for the moment as an overdrive pedal with the FlyRig - it works surprisingly well but I've yet to play out with it. You can still find them on eBay for good prices - I'm not sure why they stopped making them as they sound great and are really flexible

[clay-man]

The 69s is a nice guitar disregarding modeling. I love the option to have magnetic pickups with the Variax. 

[Breezedog]

As of today I own 4 of the Korean JTVs; a tobacco 59, a sunburst 69, a black 59p, and a black 69s. The first one I bought (the tobacco 59) was shipped without the battery/charger/accessories so during the weeks it took the company to correct this oversight I had plenty of time to put it through plenty of play time without using the models. It quickly became my go-to guitar and bumped my VG strat and other american strats to back-up status, even for live performance. Fit and finish was on par with my higher end guitars and the neck played beautifully. Even strumming it unplugged the body resonates well and this thing really sings. Once I finally received the necessary components to access the models my whole world changed. I immediately set out to sell off the rest of my guitars. Over the last 4 years I have been playing this guitar and would never consider trading it for ANY LP, STRAT, PRS, etc. I will play this guitar until either it or I fall apart. My quest to acquire my current stable of JTVs has taught me that they are not all created equal. I have checked out a few in different guitar shops that have had issues with fit, setup, faulty electronics/switches,etc. Like a woman, the trick is finding a "good" one, and once you do, never let her go!

[Spiderplayer7]

As of today I own 4 of the Korean JTVs; a tobacco 59, a sunburst 69, a black 59p, and a black 69s. 

 

 

 

I'm really glad that you made the JTV guitars work for you, I really wanted them to work for me but it just didn't happen. And I guess, having decided that they didn't work for me as guitars, subsequent serious quality issues (necks, switches etc.) as reported especially on this forum, put me off trying again. I do feel strangely attracted to the new Standards - knowing and having used Yamaha guitars, amps and keyboards a lot over the years I would imagine the quality is bang on for the price point.

[smrybacki]

As of today I own 4 of the Korean JTVs; a tobacco 59, a sunburst 69, a black 59p, and a black 69s. The first one I bought (the tobacco 59) was shipped without the battery/charger/accessories so during the weeks it took the company to correct this oversight I had plenty of time to put it through plenty of play time without using the models. It quickly became my go-to guitar and bumped my VG strat and other american strats to back-up status, even for live performance. Fit and finish was on par with my higher end guitars and the neck played beautifully. Even strumming it unplugged the body resonates well and this thing really sings. Once I finally received the necessary components to access the models my whole world changed. I immediately set out to sell off the rest of my guitars. Over the last 4 years I have been playing this guitar and would never consider trading it for ANY LP, STRAT, PRS, etc. I will play this guitar until either it or I fall apart. My quest to acquire my current stable of JTVs has taught me that they are not all created equal. I have checked out a few in different guitar shops that have had issues with fit, setup, faulty electronics/switches,etc. Like a woman, the trick is finding a "good" one, and once you do, never let her go!

Glad you're happy.

 

I'm really glad that you made the JTV guitars work for you, I really wanted them to work for me but it just didn't happen. And I guess, having decided that they didn't work for me as guitars, subsequent serious quality issues (necks, switches etc.) as reported especially on this forum, put me off trying again. I do feel strangely attracted to the new Standards - knowing and having used Yamaha guitars, amps and keyboards a lot over the years I would imagine the quality is bang on for the price point.

This is exactly how I feel except I am not going to let myself be seduced by the new Standards unless they get stellar press and reviews from pros and the unwashed alike.  Only then will I even let myself think about it....

[Charlie_Watt]

My guess is that the Standard is going to be a step down from the JTV.

[clay-man]

My guess is that the Standard is going to be a step down from the JTV.

 

It might be a step up for everyone who hates the 69 neck.

[cruisinon2]

It might be a step up for everyone who hates the 69 neck.

Lol...as far as the neck is concerned, there's nowhere to go but up.

[clay-man]

Lol...as far as the neck is concerned, there's nowhere to go but up.

 

I like the neck other than how close the E strings are to the edges.

[Charlie_Watt]

Not in my opinion.  I like the JTV69S neck.  It's well made and it fits me great.

[clay-man]

Not in my opinion.  I like the JTV69S neck.  It's well made and it fits me great.

 

How different are the 69 and 69s? I have the 69s.

 

It feels nice, just don't like the space given to the E strings and the edge. I like a bigger buffer so I can push the strings a bit without worrying about it going off the edge.

[cruisinon2]

 

 

It feels nice, just don't like the space given to the E strings and the edge. I like a bigger buffer so I can push the strings a bit without worrying about it going off the edge.

 

Of course...it's called "having a functional guitar". The strings should never, under any circumstances be falling off the fretboard under normal use. Yes, sloppy playing can cause it, but I suspect that for most who had/have that problem, they probably aren't consistently falling off the edge of every other guitar they own. The JTVs that had that problem either had an improperly cut nut, or poorly dressed frets...or both. That's why they had to address the specs...