Jump to content
davec69

Woooossshhh.......That was the QSC Touchmix

Recommended Posts

I was one of the early adopters of the Line 6 M20D.   I really had high hopes for for the future of this product, but it looks like it's fizzled out on the development front.  We have one or two helpful moderators around here, but they are pretty much in the dark, like the rest of us.  Don't get me wrong, the M20D a nice mixer, but I was really hoping for a more vibrant community, and much more product development.  Maybe new features, fixes to some of the old issues, ect.  But all we've gotten so far is............. ghosttown.jpg

 

Contrast that with the new QSC Touchmix.  Visit their forum.  They definitely have issues, but they also have someone listening, and addressing the customers.  Their already on firmware 2.0.  in the short time since release.  We've barely got to v1.20.  Sad really.   I'm really hoping someone at Line 6 or Yamaha, or whoever supports the M20D now has a hail Mary planned to bring this community back to life.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasn't an early adopter, but have been learning how to use mine for about a year; though only at about half capacity or less of what it can do!

Primarily, with my band, we used it for rehearsal and recording. HOWEVER.. I just bought a pair of the L3m speakers recently, and with our newly recorded five song EP, we're looking to book some gigs this spring and summer! At that point, I have a feeling I will need to get a LOT more familiar with the 'live' mixing features.. Or, at least get our sound guy interested enough to read up and give me some tips; or learn how to use it so he can run sound for us sometimes!

 

I think the lack of robust discussion and community may come from the initial price being off putting, and the continued rather steep cost of utilizing the entire system. I can see why QSC was smart to put out a competitor, and they certainly filled a market gap for people who don't associate Line6 with PA,. mixer or live sound speaker equipment.

 

Personally, I've used a lot of random, piece meal PA systems with my prior various band experiences. Back when I played bass, and we had to do our own sound, I usually brought a mixer, mics, cables, someone else had a couple of powered mains; Behringers. The monitors were always cobbled together with whatever anyone had. A cheap poweramp, speakers with banana plugs.

 

By comparison, the Line6 M20d + Stagesource speakers is a slick, hi-def, amazing sounding ensemble of gear! The L3m are definitely heavy, but their slender, vertical shape is quite easy to carry. They also look sharp. The L2 speakers are relatively east to lug around, you can one hand those with something in your other hand and not throw out your back.

 

I think, at the price point a person would need to put together a really 'full' stage rig, vs say, the minimum that I have (two L2t's, two L3m's, and an M20d), the price gets pretty astronomical. For even just a casual like me "music is fun, I play in band, but it's not my full time job" player, the thing is spendy. It took me over a year to add the L3m's; and I don't see adding a sub or two anytime too soon.

 

All that aside; pretty kickass set of gear. Way over my head, but I am learning as I go.

 

Keep your ears and eyes out for price drops and random sales.. If this stuff got within reach for the folks already using other Line6 gear, you might see more forum discussion.. While it was painful when they dropped they M20d price by $500; after I had already bought it... It is a step in the right direction. Get the M20d down closer to $1000, add an M36d as the new $2000 price point, and keep dropping the prices on the Stagesource speakers. They are on sale through April, but that sale price should be the regular price, and the sale price should be another $200 less.

 

I love mic'ing up the drums with ours though; even just through the L2t's the drums sound awesome; can't wait to run the full band through the L3m's.

 

Also; the 12 XLR inputs on the M20d do make a difference; I run out if I go crazy with drum mic'ing or stereo amps, but with my four piece band, the 12 is enough, most of the time. QSC was smart, to offer 16 XLR inputs, but making 12 XLR only, and 4 'combi' as XLR mic or 1/4" line. The extra four XLR inputs makes a definite difference; and their starting price is a good bit lower.

 

And they went with 6 AUX outputs; the extra monitor mixes make a difference, and for some folks, that's a deal breaker - they need more than the four Line6 is offering. The M20d has to make it work with the L6Link, so four was the limit. 

 

What does 32 bit broadcast mean? I noticed the multitrack recording uses an external hard drive only, no SD card slot.

 

It also has a talkback mic input, and built-in wifi for using wireless tablets... Dang!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get the M20d down closer to $1000, add an M36d as the new $2000 price point, and keep dropping the prices on the Stagesource speakers. They are on sale through April, but that sale price should be the regular price, and the sale price should be another $200 less.

 

Yep, they are too rich for my blood at these prices but I agree, $200 lower and for me they become a competitive choice...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, they are too rich for my blood at these prices but I agree, $200 lower and for me they become a competitive choice...

 

Don't get me wrong...the Stagesource stuff sounds amazing, but I'm less than optimistic about longevity issues with the fan assembly. Mine has been replaced twice and it's only 5 months old. If I had it to do over again, I would have looked at other FRFR options, and probably would have been able to go stereo for just a couple hundred bucks more than I spent on the one L2T, and I wouldn't have had the jackhammer rattle to deal with. The accelerometer is nice, as I do use it as a monitor live for my stage volume (POD out to FOH, etc, etc), but I'm not sure that's worth the extra expense.

If I had it to do over again, I'd have gone with something else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I'm less than optimistic about longevity issues with the fan assembly. Mine has been replaced twice and it's only 5 months old.

 

What is entailed in getting this kind of repair done? Do you have to ship them, or were you able to do it at a local 'authorized service center'? Is that repair covered under the standard warranty, or is it something they've acknowledged is a design issue, and will be covered past the point of warranty?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is entailed in getting this kind of repair done? Do you have to ship them, or were you able to do it at a local 'authorized service center'? Is that repair covered under the standard warranty, or is it something they've acknowledged is a design issue, and will be covered past the point of warranty?

There's an exception to every rule, but most "authorized service centers" are a crap shoot. This is not peculiar to Line 6, but rather a problem with warranty work in general, imho. Don't care if we're talking about washing machines, PA speakers, or snowblowers. Nobody can "specialize" in fixing every unit under the sun, so it's hit or miss. You're best chance is always with the manufacturer. That being said, the local place replaced the fan assembly the first time. Took a month...which is the other problem with doing it locally...it's a virtual guarantee that no matter what needs fixing, you will hear the following two things: 1) "Never heard of that problem before", and then once a diagnosis is made 2) "We have to order a part"

 

...so you wait...

 

Problem persisted after the first "fix". Thereafter, I dealt with L6 directly. To their credit, since I had already tried to have it fixed once, L6 paid for the shipping. With the transit time, just a few days shy of another month of down-time. I was told that the fan was replaced again, along with the "main board"...what that had to do with the rattling fan at high volume, I have no idea, but if it needed replacing, so be it.

 

So far, it seems OK...but as I said, time will tell. I'm always leary of continuing to bet on a horse that stumbles right out of the gate.

 

They have openly acknowledged the design issue...supposedly a new fan assembly was designed to address the problem (there's a thread about it around here somewhere). But that begs the question, why didn't it get fixed the first time? Your guess is as good as mine..As for what it means if a unit is out of the warranty period is beyond me...but in my experience, out of warranty means just that...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

personally, in my opinion, the entire live sound product line needs to transition to Yamaha and leave Line 6 to concentrate on building the best most innovative amp sims and guitars.  Let them get back to what made them the leaders in the first place.  Yamaha has a long history of great PA systems and could easily absorb this tech into a widely distributed product line lowering costs for everyone along the way.  Change the branding and the form factor to make it seem more mainstream and get it adopted to a wider performer base.  The tech really is good.  And Yamaha has a 7 year warranty on their speakers...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

personally, in my opinion, the entire live sound product line needs to transition to Yamaha and leave Line 6 to concentrate on building the best most innovative amp sims and guitars. Let them get back to what made them the leaders in the first place. Yamaha has a long history of great PA systems and could easily absorb this tech into a widely distributed product line lowering costs for everyone along the way. Change the branding and the form factor to make it seem more mainstream and get it adopted to a wider performer base. The tech really is good. And Yamaha has a 7 year warranty on their speakers...

Can't argue with that...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Line 6 link is a real advantage though.  Yamaha needs to not abandon that tech!

I too am waiting for a new mixer and I really hope they don't abandon the M20d.  

Really need 6 aux and a monitor control app for each aux.  A few more inputs would be nice but I've found that your input needs always expand to be slightly more than the available inputs!

My speakers have been awesome and (knock on wood) haven't had a single problem with them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could care less whether it has the Line 6 or Yamaha's name on it at this point.  I'd just like to know if there are any plans for future support and development of the M20D mixer that i currently own.

 

hilary.jpg

 

Can't argue with that...

 

personally, in my opinion, the entire live sound product line needs to transition to Yamaha and leave Line 6 to concentrate on building the best most innovative amp sims and guitars.  Let them get back to what made them the leaders in the first place.  Yamaha has a long history of great PA systems and could easily absorb this tech into a widely distributed product line lowering costs for everyone along the way.  Change the branding and the form factor to make it seem more mainstream and get it adopted to a wider performer base.  The tech really is good.  And Yamaha has a 7 year warranty on their speakers...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why not name the features or fixes you're looking for instead of just moaning for an update for no reason?

i'm all about fixing it... or even making it better....

but in all honesty i don't see many complaints about the mixer as it sits....

whether or not it if gets an update.... indeed.... "what difference does it make"

if it aint broke... lets fix it some more!

 

again! love to see updates... hope it makes you some fantastic waffles one day...

but what's wrong with it doing exactly what you bought it to do.....

 

the proper place to get ideas going: http://line6.ideascale.com/

complain there, gather a posse.... watch stuff happen.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to agree with The Real Zap.  I was an early adopter and I have to say regardless of how it's branded, what updates may or may not come, as long as there is support to maintain the gear I've purchased, I'll be satisfied. 

 

I'm using M20d, 2x L3t and 2x L3s and Sennheiser in-ear system for monitoring.  Of course it would have been great to have a Line 6 Link in-ear option but I don't know how much it would actually add since I'm getting great in ear mixes without it.  Which brings me to the lack of aux sends, over time I'm actually dialling back the number of aux mixes I'm using.  I'm down to 2 for a stereo mix that everybody shares.  My thought process is, if I have my own mix that is giving me more "ME" how do I properly play with the band as a whole, since I don't have an accurate representation of how my parts are mixing in.  I think this philosophy if adopted by more musicians would cut down on volume wars on stage.  Without getting too into it, be inspired by how the band sounds not just how you sound... enough on that.

 

Lastly I will say that over-all the thing that keeps me enthused about this gear is sounding great night after night.  It's pretty much idiot-proof.  If you start from scratch, and don't add any eq on any channels or mains, just hook up all the speakers to the mixer and go, chances are your going to get great sound.  I really don't do much more than that, I spend a fair bit of time gain staging, then getting the levels between instruments right and that's pretty much the extent of it.  This system always sounds crisp clear and full with great bottom end that is defined and rich.  I think most of that is the design of the speakers/system and how it all works together.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Zap, you must be one of those helpful moderators that I mentioned.  Ready to jump in at a moments notice and help a M20D user.  Thanks for responding.

 

I can assure you that what you may perceive as "moaning" from me, is not.   If it were to the point that I had to "moan" about it, the M20D would have been gone a long time ago.  There are other people on the forum who have posted about their troubles using the M20d.  I'm sure you can find those posts with a quick search.

 

My observation was more on the slow death of what looked like a really cool product, and really had everyone excited upon release.  As an example, I was also a Kemper Profiling Amp early adopter.  It came out around the same time as the M20d.  It worked well upon release, but had a few bugs which were addressed fairly quickly.  They coiuld have stopped there, but since that time, Kemper has added tons of new features, updates and abilities, released a new foot contoller this year, ect.  This makes us Kemper customers very happy, and one really feels like they've made a good investment.  

 

Go, read the ideascale page that you provided the link for.  Your an Uber Guru and Line 6 Expert, can you tell us users of one new feature from the list (that many of us users have provided) which is in the works, or on the way, as they say?   Anything?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I cannot, (even if i were to be in the  know....)

 

 

 

Go, read the ideascale page that you provided the link for.  Your an Uber Guru and Line 6 Expert, can you tell us users of one new feature from the list (that many of us users have provided) which is in the works, or on the way, as they say?   Anything?

 

what i can tell you, is that if the idea is there.... and the idea gets broad community support.... they will evaluate how feasible it is to make it happen...

they have to balance limited resources like all companies... time, money, people...

 

with the pod model packs and firmware updates, the upcoming firehawk, and whatever else they have up their sleeves they just haven't gotten to it.

 

I did not intend for the "moaning" comment to be offensive... just descriptive... as i love to see positive ideas and genuine discussion....

it just seems to be a bit negative if we don't put some good ideas behind these types of posts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

again! love to see updates... hope it makes you some fantastic waffles one day...

but what's wrong with it doing exactly what you bought it to do.....

 

 

Well all I know is I've been driving the same car for almost 10 years now, and it STILL isn't a helicopter. Isn't it time that it did something more interesting and complicated than just drive me around? Getting really tired of sitting in traffic...
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Buy something for what it does. Not what it might do, or you hope it might do later.

2. My 1939 Martin  D-18 guitar has not had an 'upgrade' or 'update'  yet. Not one! Imagine that. In over 70 years...

3. If there are specific problems that prevent a product working properly, then yes, those should be fixed - but added 'features' are a bonus. If you get more than you started with, then that is an 'extra' - but it is not a right and PA systems are not smartphones, tablets or computers. The expectations should not be the same. My excellent analog desks also never had (and never will) get an 'update' either. This does not stop them delivering very nice sounds to an audience.

4. If you have somthing and it works, and does the job you bought it for, great. If not - get something else. Problem solved. PA systems are not an "investment". If you want one of these, invest in pieces of paper. You can good returns - but they are lousy at amplifying bands on stage.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While i understand your point, your 1939 D-18 Martin is not a digital mixer with upgrade capabilities.  If it were, I can assure that it would have had an update by now.

 

With that said, Martin has made countless updates to their dreadnought series of guitars.  Including the limited edition Martin D-62.   That's a lot of upgrades since the D18.

 

Anyway, I'm not so much concerned about specific upgrades or updates, as I am about future development of the product that I own, which can help me make a decision as to whether or not I should keep it or sell it off before resale drops any further.  Many of us who purchased the M20D early have already taken a big hit to our resale value due to price drops since release.  It be nice to see a feature or two from the old ideascale added. 

 

 

1. Buy something for what it does. Not what it might do, or you hope it might do later.

2. My 1939 Martin  D-18 guitar has not had an 'upgrade' or 'update'  yet. Not one! Imagine that. In over 70 years...

3. If there are specific problems that prevent a product working properly, then yes, those should be fixed - but added 'features' are a bonus. If you get more than you started with, then that is an 'extra' - but it is not a right and PA systems are not smartphones, tablets or computers. The expectations should not be the same. My excellent analog desks also never had (and never will) get an 'update' either. This does not stop them delivering very nice sounds to an audience.

4. If you have somthing and it works, and does the job you bought it for, great. If not - get something else. Problem solved. PA systems are not an "investment". If you want one of these, invest in pieces of paper. You can good returns - but they are lousy at amplifying bands on stage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Resale values on PA stuff have never been good - unless it is analog and you hold onto it for 30-40 years and can label it as "vintage".

 

Your recoup the upfront cost by using it, or, you write if off againat taxes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well all I know is I've been driving the same car for almost 10 years now, and it STILL isn't a helicopter. Isn't it time that it did something more interesting and complicated than just drive me around? Getting really tired of sitting in traffic...

Mmmhhh - imagine following: You have a car from company xxx and one reason that you bought it, was the abiltiy to have software updates. (No one is complaining about any hardware tunings - like "tune a car into a helicopter" vs. "tune an M20D into a keyboard".) Further imagine following - all other cars of company xxx get software updates from time to time - and the company also asks for ideas for updates for your car. And nothing happens for nearly two years .... :-(

 

Other companies also sell cars - and the have lots of software updates: i.e. to lower the gasoline consumption, to have more ps (hp), to improve the ABS, and and and...

 

I think it is a bit confusing if a company is selling softwareupdateable products with more or less continous updates and selling one softwareupdateable product without any updates except two very old (in terms of software) ones.

 

For me it is as follows: I knew Line6 since the release of the first POD and I bought a lot of Line6 products (PODs, Spider, MIcs, ...) - and I saw that they take care of their products (take a look on the "Download" pages! - And most of these updates are full with news functions and features - not only bug fixes).

 

Then the M20D was released - with the possibility to have software updates - and as I "learned" in the past, Line6 is constantly improving their products by software updates.

 

So I bought my M20D (in the meantime I have my third M20D - the first was gone because of heat problems and second one because of the known output issue - luckily every change was in between the warranty time) - and though nobody promised software updates, I really had no doubt that there will be a lot of updates in the future (My fault?!?)

 

I won't complain about this kind of "misleading" behaviour - the only thing I want to know (as I already asked in a former post) is, if there will be a future for the M20D or if Yamaha has closed the Line6-Mixer-Adventure-Book!

 

As often mentioned, I love this mixer - but there are some features (software) that I miss (and that are mentioned in the "idea-box") and that other companies mixers already have. And this is the problem (and the reason for the "complain"): I would like to keep this mixer with the reliability that there will be improvements in the future.

 

So, to all at Line6/Yamaha, all I ask: Is there a future for the M20D?

 

Greeting

 

Roger

 

... and 66d35: don't compare a software driven mixer with a 1939 Martin D-18!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

therein lies the problem...

you want them to change something that people use professionally and even depend on for their business to make money...

just because....

every change introduces the possibility of new issues... they generally have to have a good reason for that.

 

 

 

Anyway, I'm not so much concerned about specific upgrades or updates

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll never get it...maybe it's because I wasn't raised to believe that the world and everyone in it exists to service my needs, and that I "deserve" this, that, or the other thing just because I'm breathing. You have a need, do your research and purchase a product that you think will fullfill said need...sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I've never wasted time or energy expecting something I bought to change from one day to the next, or become something "better" than what it was the day I bought it. If it happens as an accident of fate, and I get something for free...wonderful, it's gravy. But to walk around with such unrealistic expectations makes absolutely no sense to me, and it never will...for the simple reason that more often that not, you're gonna be disappointed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Lastly I will say that over-all the thing that keeps me enthused about this gear is sounding great night after night.  It's pretty much idiot-proof.  If you start from scratch, and don't add any eq on any channels or mains, just hook up all the speakers to the mixer and go, chances are your going to get great sound.  I really don't do much more than that, I spend a fair bit of time gain staging, then getting the levels between instruments right and that's pretty much the extent of it.  This system always sounds crisp clear and full with great bottom end that is defined and rich.  I think most of that is the design of the speakers/system and how it all works together.

 

This describes me to a "T", especially the idiot part. So far so good for me and I've been very happy with my system. Just my 2 cents. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seriously?  Deserve? Wow!  Not sure why you went there.  Maybe something personal which I'll leave you to.   My guess is that you've never been part of a vibrant product community in which people like us get together, hyped over a new product, we discuss it's pro's and cons, make suggestions which can make said product better for the users, The manufacturer then supplies a resource like idealscale for users to post those ideas which are reviewed and possibly implemented via.......don't get scared.......a new update.

 

Afterwards, all the users can look at the new feature of the update and determine if they want to install it in there machine, or keep their machine at the same level as the day they bought it.

 

Out of curiosity, i just checked the ideascale page which I and many others have posted and voted.  It has the following statistics:

 

Campaign usage statistics

95 ideas posted

162 comments 1929 votes

 
 

Random ideas picks like:

 

iPad StageScape App that doesn't disconnect

 

Desktop App for StageScape

 

Auto EQ option for mains via Mic input on M20d

 

Tap tempo delay for stagescape m20d

 

Save FBS settings with Setups on the M20d

 

Add Features to Stagescape Record Function

 

Screen Lockout

 

Tuner

 

These statistics above tell me that at least 95 users cared enough to post ideas, and got 1829 votes for those ideas.  Unless they were included in update v 1.20, none have been implemented.  This is just a few of the ideas from the first page of ideascale.  

 

To note, I did quite a bit of research prior to purchasing the M20d.  Watched all the You Tube Namm videos with the Line 6 reps, read the reviews, ect.  My expectations for this product was based on that research, and similar experience with other products.

 

 

 

I'll never get it...maybe it's because I wasn't raised to believe that the world and everyone in it exists to service my needs, and that I "deserve" this, that, or the other thing just because I'm breathing. You have a need, do your research and purchase a product that you think will fullfill said need...sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I've never wasted time or energy expecting something I bought to change from one day to the next, or become something "better" than what it was the day I bought it. If it happens as an accident of fate, and I get something for free...wonderful, it's gravy. But to walk around with such unrealistic expectations makes absolutely no sense to me, and it never will...for the simple reason that more often that not, you're gonna be disappointed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yamaha recently announced the TF series of mixers.  From what I have read, these include some touchscreen functions, automatic gain setting, presets for microphones from various manufacturers, and much more.

 

I thoroughly enjoy using our M20d mixer with our L3t mains and L2m monitors.  Like many of you, though, I have been waiting patiently for a further upgrade to the M20d that might enhance some of its features and address some of the idiosyncrasies that have been identified.  In light of Yamaha's announcement, my faith  that Line 6 would come through with a further upgrade is sagging.  

 

What do you think?  What are the implications, if any, of Yamaha's announcement for the future of the M20d?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would imagine Yamaha intends Line6 to remain it's own brand; the recognition, product history, all of that. The M20d is one heck of a solid piece - within certain limits. Huge stage bands, with keyboards, a horn section, three backup singers, two lead singers, two guitars, bass, drums, percussion - they might need something a bit more. But if you are creative with how you handle monitor mixes, and inputs; you could still run that whole band with the M20d; but it would be a challenge:

 

1. lead (vocal 1)

2. lead (vocal 2)

3. backup (vocal 3)

4. backup (vocal 4)

5. guitar 1

6. guitar 2

7. bass

8. kick drum

9. overhead drum (left)

10. overhead drum (right) (* or go single overhead and two horn section mics)

11. horn section

12. percussion (condensor mic overhead? or possibly use a small second mixer, send a sub-mix to a 1/4" stereo pair)

13/14. keyboards (figure out how to make it work using 1/4" inputs)

 

Not ideal; but you can make it happen, still have four monitor mixes, and probably also pull off a decent multi-track recording..

Maybe not the main mix; you'll likely have to shape that to fit the room and match stage volumes of things like drums, to vocals, horns, etc.

 

If you believe you can make it work, and well - you can. :)

 

Development wise? Who knows. The M20d sports some pretty intense A/D converters, and the DSP is extensive. The Line6 link option is also something that is quite a benefit, depending on how you run the stage.

 

I love it; but my needs of it are more limited than others, so it does everything and more for what I want to do with it.. My band is four piece, with one vocal mic.. This thing handles that no problem!! I mic the heck out the drums, can even run four guitar tracks; does a stellar job in rehearsal; we have only used it for one gig thus far - I didn't have the L3m mains yet at that gig, and it still worked fine. Ran the main outs to a power amp to a pair of speakers, and used my two L2t's with the link for the stage monitors. One up front for the vocalist and myself and the bassist to hear, and one dedicated to the drummer. The stage bleed between the two monitors covers it well enough for now. I could see myself adding another L2m down the road, even out the monitor mixes. Maybe add a L3 sub to the center mains; but, for me, don't need much more.

 

Bigger stages, bigger bands, more complex in and out routing; might hit some snags.

 

Overall, I have definitely enjoyed using it. It's intuitive, and not as intimidating as a 'standard' mixer. I used a regular mixer with the old band back in the day, it was good, nothing special, just a 16 channel Behringer. This M20d has substantially higher sound quality though. Without using a bunch of FX or the DSP features, just using the standard presets, and adjusting the gain, it sounds insanely good.

 

In part, the extra power on the L3 mains and L2 monitors allows extra headroom, and the anti-feedback features do work wonders. The multi-track recording is spot on, I never have any trouble. Key there, is get the correct SD card. Record, copy to computer, and then format the card before using it again.

 

Whether they update or not, just as it is, this thing is perfect for my needs, and I still have no clue how to use well over half of it's deep editing features.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Count me in the love it camp.

 

I've owned my full rig (M20d, 2xL3m 2xL3s 2x L2m plus a recently acquired L2t) since October '13.

 

In that time, I've used it with 8 different bands:

Our (as then) 7 piece; drums, 5x vox, guitar, keys, bass, drums and sax

Our now 5 pice: 5x vox, 2x guitars, bass, drums and sax

A 4 piece thrash rock band: 2 vox, 2 guitars, bass, drums

A 3 piece thrash rock band: 1 vox, 2 guitars, bass, drums via laptop recordings

A 4 piece thrash rock band: 1 vox, 2 guitars, bass, drums

A 4 piece thrash rock band: 1 vox, 1 guitar, bass, drums

A 4 piece foofighters tribute band: 1 vox, 2 guitars, bass, drums

A 5 piece (6 piece for their next outing) SKA band: 5x vox, 2x guitars (one doubled ie 3 guitars) bass, keys and drums.

 

In every scenario, I've not struggled to have either:

Enough inputs (though I was getting tight with our original 7 piece lineup)

Enough monitor mixes

 

In all that time, I've had just ONE issue: a blown power supply on one of my L3s's which Line6 speedily resolved via the dealer I bought from.

 

In every situation except one the sound delivered by the rig has been immense and unlike anything I've heard before... and considering its me running sound (with a little help from our guitarist) and neither of us is a "sound engineer", I am wholeheartedly pleased with my purchase and WILL be expanding the rig with at least one more L2t.

 

What I don't understand is why, as modern consumers, we now seem to expect, no demand, free of charge updates to software. Additionally, we whinge when we don't get what we want and it somehow becomes the manufacturers fault.

 

I do expect "bug fixes" for free, as a bug is a fault, but I don't expect upgrades.

 

The rig does exactly what was promised on the day I bought it. It does so flawlessly. I've found no bugs. It was worth the money I paid for it then and as it still does exactly what was promised it's still worth it now.

 

Call me old school. I paid my money, I got what I paid for and I'm still a happy bunny. Do I want extra features? Possibly, it would depend on what those features were. Would I expect them for free? No. If my equipment developed a fault, would I expect the manufacturer to sort it out? Yes, and as I've seen, Line6 do so.

 

If I order an ice cream from the van, should I be able to go back and demand sprinkles on it because the van next door put sprinkles on their ice creams (even though the ice cream tastes worse or they charge more)... No absolutely not. So why do so many feel aggrieved that Line6 aren't rolling out every little feature every other manufacturer adds to their later released digital desks? Why is the quality of the desk being judged by the date of the last software update?

 

Plain and simple...

If the M20d doesn't do what you *need* it to, go get something else.

If the M20d doesn't have the features you *need*, go get something else.

If the M20d still does exactly what you were promised it would do when you bought it, you got what you paid for. You made the decision to buy it.

 

Me... I love it.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to throw some thoughts on this discussion, from someone who owns & uses the Stagescape M20d, the L3T & L3S for mains, and a Mackie DL32R, and happens to be a software developer...

 

Both sides have very valid points.  The M20d AS IT STANDS is one hell of a mixer.  The effect chains and processing ability are not matched by anything less than $10K.  (I've been trying to find something that has multi-band compression available on ALL CHANNELS for ages...)  If Line 6 does nothing else with the mixer, it is still amazing.

 

Having said that...

 

There has been nothing else done with the M20d.  The basic driver software has been updated twice, with great additional features.  The drivers are still being updated to work with the latest OSes (yeah!).  The two firmware updates, though, came out pretty quickly, within a year of the original release.  My guess is that these were the features that the team wanted to have for day one, but got pushed to get the unit out the door.

 

The other, more disconcerting sign is that no other products have appeared for the stagescape/stagesource line.  The often rumored L1 speakers never materialized (could Bose have put the kibosh on the speaker name?).  The 12 + 4 format is pretty awkward.  It's too much for a real basic band, and certainly not enough for anything much bigger than a 5 or 6 piece band.  Yes, you can get all 16 channels to be used (and trust me, I have!), but it does take some planning and foresight to make sure that it all works.  If I had to guess, the M20d is probably maxing out the processing power.  Going to a 24 channel mixer would probably require a significant boost in horsepower to add the additional 8 channels, which would probably be cost prohibitive.  I don't think the M20d has sold all that well, as I seem them get blown out a lot lately.

 

As to the things *I* would love to see...

- New model, the M40d - 32 XLR / 1/4" neutek connectors and 10+ tuxes

- Different / faster workflow interface

 

Those two things, and I'd buy one in a heartbeat.  The mixer could even be like the DL32R or Presonus faderless boards.  My favorite UI so far is definitely the Mackie board.  Not a much visual representation as the Line 6, but way faster for moving between settings and faders.

 

I hope Line 6 brings out another Stagescape board, as the system is awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with you, the M20D had some great features from the start.  It's a very usable mixer.

 

Maybe it's easier for those who purchased their mixer after the price was lowered.  As mentioned, our band was an early adopter of the M20D, and as such, we paid top dollar.  When making purchases like the M20D, i do much research, to see what's out there, including visiting the forums, you tube, ect.  There was much discussion on the future and possibilities with a M20D based system.  In addition, Idealscale had many suggestions from users as to how to make the M20D better, and even more usable.  With any digital based mixer, especially a new idea like the M20D, having a good support and development team behind it, who can respond to customers, is a really big part of my decision making process.

 

Unfortunately, all of that early enthusiasm has seemed to fall on deaf ears, because after the early v1.20 udpate, nothing.  Likely because of the purchase of Line 6 by Yamaha.  Different priorities and such.  Contrast that to a company like QSC with a similar product, active online community and developers who are listening to their users, and it's just a little disheartening.  Not ready to give up on our M20D yet though.  It is working for us, but had I known then, what I know now, i would have probably went another direction.

 

On a separate note, and probably just Line 6 karma.  Our band had a gig last weekend.  Get everything setup, fire up the M20D, and nothing.  No Sound.  A couple restarts later, and we have one of the main out meters registering, but only very low output.   Finally, I just scrapped that preset and created a new one from scratch, as the audience was sitting there.  The new preset fixed the problem.  I've read similar stories on this forum from others.  it would be great to know someones working on that at least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

all of QSC's eggs are in the PA market basket... that's their sole focus

 

 

Contrast that to a company like QSC with a similar product, active online community and developers who are listening to their users, and it's just a little disheartening.  

 

 

what is it you know now that matters?

 

.  It is working for us, but had I known then, what I know now, i would have probably went another direction.

 

seriously, just trying to drag something constructive out of this thread....

because this is all i hear....

 

it's a joke... NOT a personal attack... you have a GREAT mixer... and if you want that vibrant positive and growing community you have to be that community....

not the "where's my update" guy....

 

update_c_900306.jpg

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was more using the QSC Touchmix as an example of the level of development, support, user interaction that i expected from Line 6 and the M20D.  QSC does do PA mostly, but not all.  Their Q-sys systems, and install stuff is also big for them.  Totally separate from the K series stuff.   Not sure where you're going.  Are you saying that it was unreasonable for me to include into my purchase decision that Line 6 would support  and develop their PA line products as well as their other products?

Here's a few of the things that I've learned since registering my M20D in Setptember of 2012 is:

 

1.  That nearly 3 years later, there would only be one firmware update shortly after release.  

2.  That their would be no new feature upgrades, customer ideas implemented or hardware addons introduced.

3.  That Line 6 would be purchased by another company, who have their own roadmap and sales philosophy.

4.  Finally, that the vibrant user community to support the product would be, well not so vibrant.

 

These are all things that matter to me when purchasing a 2k mixer.  

 

With that said, I don't want to give the impression of bashing Line 6.  I've got many Line 6 products, including the Stagescape speakers, Variax Guitars, POD Footcontroller, ect.   I'm specifically speaking about my experience, and what I expected from them in regard to the M20D, an otherwise fine product.  On the bright side, this could turn around anytime.  My M20d still has it's USB update capability.  It's a little rusty from lack of use, but still there.

 

Out of curiosity, do you own and use the M20D mixer?  I would imagine that every M20d owner would have figured at least some of these things into their decision to buy. 

 

 

seriously, just trying to drag something constructive out of this thread....

because this is all i hear....

 

it's a joke... NOT a personal attack... you have a GREAT mixer... and if you want that vibrant positive and growing community you have to be that community....

not the "where's my update" guy....

 

I understand, I'm not taking it personally.  Unfortunately,  it seems that we are that vibrant user community at this point.

 

 

all of QSC's eggs are in the PA market basket... that's their sole focus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i wish i owned an m20d :) for everything that it can do.

 

1. i said previously when you have people using these things for their income.... you have to be a little reserved and less eager to make updates. (your lucky to get any updates at all from some companies)

2. doesn't mean there won't be any... just that they havent yet.. (which is what you said...)

3. true... BUT keep in mind... companies usually buy other companies because they have good tech or ideas... Yamaha saw something they liked in keeping L6 running... if they didnt they would have absorbed the tech and shut it down.

4. I see lots of good chatter... i think it might help when they start coming out with more affordable options.... or even higher end options... just more options in general really :)

 

thanks for keeping it civil....

i'd love to see more happening with the line... and i do believe that it will happen... eventually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Roland, for one, rarely updates anything. Once you buy a piece of gear from them, there may be a bug fix update, and this may include a feature or two...maybe.  But after that, they are done.  Firmware can outgrow hardware, there comes a point when you can't cram anything more into the box without slowing it down or causing other performance issues.  My guess is this is partly Roland's philosophy, coupled with the fact that they can put faster processors and more memory in the next device thus allowing them to add more features, sell new units make more money.  It's not a process I totally disagree with, something has to fund the R&D for new, ever expanding products.

 

It's like with anything, you buy the product at a moment in time when you need it and the tech is what it is at that time. That said, this product isn't really that old but in the time since it has come out, there is still no other mixer like it.  I would like it to work a little differently in some aspects but these are things Line 6 did intentionally.  For instance the monitor send levels being able to be saved either within the setup or a scene.  Point being, Line 6 wants it the way it is, so some of my wants will never be met.  But at the end of the day I do know what I know now, and seeing the other options out there, there is still no other PA setup the heart of which is the M20d that I would prefer to use. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, looking at the graphics and interface for the newly announced TF series mixers from Yamaha, I wouldn't be surprised if that's where the m20 dev team went to.

 

My only complaint about the m20 has been the lack of more monitors; It has treated me really well in the last two years, but the band I'm with has just out-grown the mixer.  I need another 6 or so inputs and 3 more monitor sends for our larger shows (1 more monitor send for our smaller shows). The digital snake option is also starting to become more needed for me. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, looking at the graphics and interface for the newly announced TF series mixers from Yamaha, I wouldn't be surprised if that's where the m20 dev team went to.

 

My only complaint about the m20 has been the lack of more monitors; It has treated me really well in the last two years, but the band I'm with has just out-grown the mixer.  I need another 6 or so inputs and 3 more monitor sends for our larger shows (1 more monitor send for our smaller shows). The digital snake option is also starting to become more needed for me. 

 

It looks amazing! Interestingly, the multi-track recording feature requires outboard equipment; doesn't do the onboard SD card as the M20d does - though it seems more tracks are able to be recorded total using the outboard option..

 

"Live recording capability is becoming increasingly important in live sound systems. From simple 2-track recording and playback using a USB storage device* to all-out multitrack recording with a computer based DAW (Digital Audio Workstation), the TF series is ready to roll. TF consoles come supplied with Steinberg’s Cubase AI DAW application, providing an easy way to simultaneously record up to 16 tracks to a computer connected to the console via USB 2.0.For more complex recording requirements an optional DAW such as Steinberg’s Nuendo Live application allows up to 34 tracks to be recorded simultaneously"

 

And, they definitely offer some really cool features as pertaining to monitor mixing from mobile devices:

 

"The MonitorMix application for the TF Series allows individual wireless AUX mixing from up to 10 iPhone, iPad or iPod touch devices simultaneously. Each performer can have convenient control over the AUX buses assigned to them, without having to deal with complex settings or parameters. They can also create personal Group settings for even easier adjustment: all levels on just one fader, for example. Since up to three devices running TF Editor or StageMix and up to 10 devices running MonitorMix can be connected at the same time, even large bands can have the personal control they need, reducing demands on the sound engineer."

 

The smallest deck in that series still has a lot of options over the M20d - though it also has an extra $1,000 on the price tag. I can see why they lowered the M20d price..

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TF1-16/

 

Anyone know how these "D-Pre" mic preamps compare to what is onboard the M20d>?

 

"The mic preamps play a significant role in defining the sound of your mix, that's why the Yamaha TF1 16-channel digital console is loaded with 16 if their acclaimed D-Pre mic pres. Utilizing a circuit based on a discrete inverted Darlington configuration, D-Pre preamps provide you with a clean, precise sound that captures every nuance and subtlety of your source."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding this thread, I wrote an article about the topic in 2008 that was planned for Recording magazine, but never made it to print. (I wrote occasional articles and reviews for the magazine.) At the time, the issue was that Panasonic/Ramsa stopped updating the WR-DA7 digital mixer.

I've attached the article as a pdf.

upgrade.pdf

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I only know that the M20d has been great for me, but the 1st two updates were badly needed and the 2nd one took too long but it did address my concern. I use the M20d and iPad very easy and don't need to know sound engineering to make it sound great.  It's small and I love that all the speakers are sized right and the whole system is scaleable. I did an outdoor concert and everything fit in my mini-van and I did't need to hire additional helpers- just had to have an extra portable battery to recharge / power the iPad. There's nothing wrong to me that needs updating at this point and the price drop makes it easy to add the iPad. The L6 link cables can be purchased from HOSA at reduced cost. I bought a Netgear n600 for cheap and the 5g is supposed to limit interference issues. I did buy a 2nd demo model for 1/2 of original price and a 2nd iPad  thinking I would use it as a sub-mixer for rhythm section on larger gig but ended up not needing it yet - so it's in the rehearsal room. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad to hear that you are happy with the M20d.   I would say that most owners, including myself, are very happy with the M20d as it is.  This thread has never been about getting a particular fix or update, though a few people above have veered of in that direction.  No, this thread has been about a very good product which could have been even better, with Line 6 and community support, but instead appears to be fading into oblivion, as it is passed by other products which attempt to do the same thing.    

 

I mentioned my Kemper Profiling Amp as an example.  I purchased it around the same time that I purchased my M20d.  Cost was about the same.  We are now at v3.0 of the firmware for the Kemper.  We've seen many new user requested features added to that product, and recently a new footcontroller released.  Kemper doesn't even have anything fancy like Ideascale.  Ideas are submitted by us users via the user forum which the Kemper folks actually paticipate in.  I also just picked up a Eventide H9 Max.  Great processor.  I'm seeing similar activity around that unit.  New effects releases, ect.  I would have liked to see something similar happen with the M20d, but I'm guessing that we've seen the end of the development road map for this product.  A shame if you ask me.

 

How about this?  Take a look at some of the user feature requests added to the idealscale page.  Is there anything on there that you would like to see added to your M20d?  I know there are several, that I would love to see.

 

 

 

I only know that the M20d has been great for me, but the 1st two updates were badly needed and the 2nd one took too long but it did address my concern. I use the M20d and iPad very easy and don't need to know sound engineering to make it sound great.  It's small and I love that all the speakers are sized right and the whole system is scaleable. I did an outdoor concert and everything fit in my mini-van and I did't need to hire additional helpers- just had to have an extra portable battery to recharge / power the iPad. There's nothing wrong to me that needs updating at this point and the price drop makes it easy to add the iPad. The L6 link cables can be purchased from HOSA at reduced cost. I bought a Netgear n600 for cheap and the 5g is supposed to limit interference issues. I did buy a 2nd demo model for 1/2 of original price and a 2nd iPad  thinking I would use it as a sub-mixer for rhythm section on larger gig but ended up not needing it yet - so it's in the rehearsal room. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In 2012 I bought a 2 seater sports car. I paid top dollar for it as it was a new release car and I've been using it ever since.

 

There were a couple of little niggly problems in the engine management system that a few other drivers had found and my dealer called and told me to pop in a get the bugfixes each time, which I did. It corners superbly and the sound the engine makes is fantastic. I've really enjoyed driving it.

 

BUT, my wife has just popped two offspring and my 2 seater sports car is no longer suitable. I want more seats because I now need it to be able to have four of us put in it. OK, I only needed 2 seats when I bought it and, as I said, its a great little sports car.

 

Its a real shame though XXXX haven't further developed it and sent me the upgrade that adds two more seats if needed for free. Take a look at what YYYY are doing... they've got a 2 seater AND a 4 seater sports car. OK so their 4 seater is not as slick as my 2 seater and doesn't corner as well, but its got 2 extra seats AND its cheaper than what I paid for mine. Why can't XXXX give me the 2 extra seats I need? Especially as to get my 2 seater now would cost less than what I paid.

 

To be honest, I'm getting really hacked off as since I bought the little car, XXXX haven't done anything to improve it apart from the two bugfixes for my engine management system. What's more, they haven't made any announcements about even a newer model of my little two seater and yet almost everyone else has! Come on XXXX, you need to tell us what you're up to (if anything at all)... as I'm getting scared that you're going to stop making cars and leave me out in the cold with a car I can no longer use.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uhhhh.........?

 

 

In 2012 I bought a 2 seater sports car. I paid top dollar for it as it was a new release car and I've been using it ever since.

There were a couple of little niggly problems in the engine management system that a few other drivers had found and my dealer called and told me to pop in a get the bugfixes each time, which I did. It corners superbly and the sound the engine makes is fantastic. I've really enjoyed driving it.

BUT, my wife has just popped two offspring and my 2 seater sports car is no longer suitable. I want more seats because I now need it to be able to have four of us put in it. OK, I only needed 2 seats when I bought it and, as I said, its a great little sports car.

Its a real shame though XXXX haven't further developed it and sent me the upgrade that adds two more seats if needed for free. Take a look at what YYYY are doing... they've got a 2 seater AND a 4 seater sports car. OK so their 4 seater is not as slick as my 2 seater and doesn't corner as well, but its got 2 extra seats AND its cheaper than what I paid for mine. Why can't XXXX give me the 2 extra seats I need? Especially as to get my 2 seater now would cost less than what I paid.

To be honest, I'm getting really hacked off as since I bought the little car, XXXX haven't done anything to improve it apart from the two bugfixes for my engine management system. What's more, they haven't made any announcements about even a newer model of my little two seater and yet almost everyone else has! Come on XXXX, you need to tell us what you're up to (if anything at all)... as I'm getting scared that you're going to stop making cars and leave me out in the cold with a car I can no longer use.








;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Si is being sarcastic. It's a good story to illustrate people's desire to want everything upgradeable just because it has some software in it.

  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×