Raw Piezo Sound

[or8ital]

Is it possible to get just the raw piezo sound so the Variax can be used with something like an Aura Spectrum? Thanks.

[silverhead]

No - the piezos apply when the Variax is in Model mode, and then it is using one of its internal models.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'raw piezo sound'. The piezos don't produce sound. Unless there's a guitar being modeled by the Variax, isn't that analogous to asking whether a 'real' guitar can be connected to your Aura Spectrum without the guitar producing its mag-pickup generated sound?

 

The piezos transmit waveforms from the string vibrations to the internal DSP processor. Are you asking that the guitar (any guitar - whether real or modeled Variax) be able to somehow output the raw string vibration wave-forms without having processed it, either by DSP modeling or by its onboard pickups? And if it could, does you Aura Spectrum handle that sort of 6-channel input (one channel per string)?

[or8ital]

Raw non modeled signal like you would get from typical piezo pickups.

 

Thanks for the reply.

[TheRealZap]

sounds like a good idea, it's currently not possible... you should submit it to: http://line6.ideascale.com/

[Charlie_Watt]

There is no way that I know of to get the individual string outputs but it should be possible to have an option to put out the un-modeled sum of the piezos out on the 1/4 inch.

[johnnyayyy]

Is it possible to get just the raw piezo sound so the Variax can be used with something like an Aura Spectrum? Thanks.

 

 

You could modify your guitar to allow you to select between routing the piezos to the Variax electronics or directly to the existing 1/4" jack with a 6 pole double throw switch or a simple on off switch with a 6pdt relay.

 

This will void your warranty but is possible and would not be difficult or expensive.

 

[TheRealZap]

let us know when you get the prototype sorted... love to see the video!  :lol:

[johnnyayyy]

let us know when you get the prototype sorted... love to see the video!  :lol:

 

 

I could easily do it if I wanted to but have no need for raw piezo output - also I will not be doing any mods at all on my JTV til the warranty expires, at that time I will be swapping out the bridge for a Graph Tech.

 

To wire for raw piezo output: On the relay connect the 6 hot wires from the piezos to the middle strip of 6 pins, connect the 6 top pins to the same place the piezos were connected before on the variax , sum the 6 bottom pins with a bus wirre and run a connection from there to the 1/4" jack hot. Add a 9v battery and a simple on/off switch, toggling power to the relay on and off selects between sending the piezos to the variax guts or raw to the 1/4" out.

 

If you choose the 6pdt slider switch instead of the 6pdt powered relay:

 

1. connect the piezo hot wires to pins 2,5,8,11,14,and 17

 

2. connect pins 1,4,7,10,13,and 16 to the normal conncetions on the avariax board.

3. sum pins 3,6,9,12,15,and 18 with a bus wire and connect to hot on 1/4" out

 

Easy-peasy, shouldn't take more than an hour or so.

 

If you don't feel comfortable doing it yourself any competent guitar tech should be able to do it for you.

[johnnyayyy]

Is it possible to get just the raw piezo sound so the Variax can be used with something like an Aura Spectrum? Thanks.

 

There is an easier way to get what you want that requires no modifications to the guitar.

 

Simply roll back and reflash the firmware your guitar a few times, for quickest results use the Workbench dongle/hub - eventually you will receive an error code and all the modeled sounds will disappear, leaving you with pure, raw piezo output.

 

Enjoy!

[Charlie_Watt]

The piezos need a very high impedance charge amp buffer before being summed together. 

[clay-man]

I always thought this might be a little nice to do. You have the piezos, so why not be able to use them normally? Would add more functionality to the guitar. All they need to do is bypass modeling. In fact, it would be awesome if you could use the raw piezo sound with alt tunings.

 

The closest you can get right now is probably the acoustic sounds, but obviously it's still pretty different than the raw piezo signal.

[TheRealZap]

I still think YOU should do it!

 

 

because you can.....

 

I could easily do it if I wanted to but have no need for raw piezo output - also I will not be doing any mods at all on my JTV til the warranty expires, at that time I will be swapping out the bridge for a Graph Tech.

 

To wire for raw piezo output: On the relay connect the 6 hot wires from the piezos to the middle strip of 6 pins, connect the 6 top pins to the same place the piezos were connected before on the variax , sum the 6 bottom pins with a bus wirre and run a connection from there to the 1/4" jack hot. Add a 9v battery and a simple on/off switch, toggling power to the relay on and off selects between sending the piezos to the variax guts or raw to the 1/4" out.

 

If you choose the 6pdt slider switch instead of the 6pdt powered relay:

 

1. connect the piezo hot wires to pins 2,5,8,11,14,and 17

 

2. connect pins 1,4,7,10,13,and 16 to the normal conncetions on the avariax board.

3. sum pins 3,6,9,12,15,and 18 with a bus wire and connect to hot on 1/4" out

 

Easy-peasy, shouldn't take more than an hour or so.

 

If you don't feel comfortable doing it yourself any competent guitar tech should be able to do it for you.

[or8ital]

There is an easier way to get what you want that requires no modifications to the guitar.

 

Simply roll back and reflash the firmware your guitar a few times, for quickest results use the Workbench dongle/hub - eventually you will receive an error code and all the modeled sounds will disappear, leaving you with pure, raw piezo output.

 

Enjoy!

Yes. Noticed this during a FW upgrade which suggests it can be done and it's software blocking it. I would want the option to use it but not at the expensive of giving up the models.

[johnnyayyy]

The piezos need a very high impedance charge amp buffer before being summed together. 

 

I have summed multiple piezos in the past (on an upright bass) then sent the sum to an onboard preamp with no problems... and the piezos in GraphTech Tuneomatics I used on my transplants were summed from the factory,  the 6-in-1-out summing connector had to be removed and the wires split/stripped to work in the Variaxtransplants. Don't know what apllication that 6-in-1-out summing connector is made for but this tells me the piezos need nothing pre-sum... maybe I will do this with one of my GraphTechs when I get a chance. For Science.

[johnnyayyy]

I still think YOU should do it!

 

 

because you can.....

 

Erm, okay... are you implying that you believe this simple modification cannot be done?

 

I don't know what that .gif means (are you the guy with the gas pump or am I...?) and I have no interest in adding this feature to my guitar (the mods I will be spending my time on post-warranty period are 1.a new bridge, 2.a Bigsby, and 3.a different neck - probably a nice Ibanez RG) but I would be willing to mod your guitar in this manner if you like.

 

For a modest fee, of course.

 

Feel free to PM me if you are serious.

[TheRealZap]

was just making a joke... sort of a challenge... the gif was just a play on "doing it"

:)

[clay-man]

I still think bypassing modeling via firmware > switch that physically bypasses the variax processing hardware.

Piezo alt tunings, you guys!

[johnnyayyy]

I still think bypassing modeling via firmware > switch that physically bypasses the variax processing hardware.

Piezo alt tunings, you guys!

 

I agree, that would be better.

 

Also I wouldn't have to do all that soldering on Zap's guitar :P

 

I think this idea was posted on ideascale a while back, anyone who thinks it would be useful should go there and vote it up or repost it - the neutral body with a "no pickup" option should do what you are after.

[clay-man]

I agree, that would be better.

 

Also I wouldn't have to do all that soldering on Zap's guitar :P

 

I think this idea was posted on ideascale a while back, anyone who thinks it would be useful should go there and vote it up or repost it - the neutral body with a "no pickup" option should do what you are after.

 

We already have neutral body, so why not have a neutral pickup, or piezo pickup mode that also bypasses the pickup modeling? While I think the acoustic models sound way better than a raw piezo sound on most piezo guitars for acoustic sound, I think it's still applicable and can be used if someone wants that sound out of their guitar.

[pedronuno]

Hey, everyone. 

 

In 

 

http://www.instituteofnoise.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15539

 

I found something interesting. I am not sure if it works with the JT Variax, but it sure did with my 700.

 

"Variax 500/700 Special Startup Modes 

Mode Entry 

 

[Turn the Variax off by removing the batteries or the stereo cable]

1. Turn the volume pot up on the Variax in order to hear any audible feedback. 
2. Apply power to the Variax with the model select knob in the up (save) position. 
3. The Variax is now in the mode select state. Select a mode with the 5-way selector: 

1st (neck) position - firmware version 

2nd position - calibrate model select knob 
3rd middle position- adjust string output levels 
4th position - nothing 
5th (bridge) position - nothing 

4. Enter the mode by turning the tone knob to min and then to max.  

Mode Details 

Firmware Version 

1. The firmware version is made up of 4 digits, for example 01.21. For each nonzero digit, the Variax outputs short, higher pitched tones to indicate the number. A zero digit outputs a longer, lower pitched tone.

2. When finished, the Variax returns to the mode select state. 

Calibrate Model Select Knob 

1. The Variax outputs a long, low frequency tone to indicate entry into this mode. 
2. The following steps apply only for a type 2 knob. The type 1 knob details will be detailed in a future revision.

3. Turn the model select knob from min to max to min. Repeat this until the Variax gives audible feedback. 
4. When finished, the Variax outputs a short low tone followed by a short low, high, low… sequence followed by a longer higher tone. The Variax returns to the mode select state.

Adjust String Output Levels 

1. The Variax outputs a long, low frequency tone to indicate entry into this mode. 
2. The model select knob determines which string level to adjust - 
High E = Custom 1 
B = T-Model 
G = Spank 
D = Lester 
A = Special 
Low E = R-Billy 
The Variax outputs a short low frequency tone when one of these strings is selected to adjust. 
3. Turn the tone knob to set the level. 
4. ! Repeat steps 2 and 3 for each string. 
When finished, turn the model select knob to Custom 2. The Variax outputs short low, high, low, high, and low beeps after writing the updated levels to the flash and then returns to the mode select state."

 

The neat thing is that while the guitar is in this "mode", there is no processing whatsoever, and you will obtain that wonderful piezo sound (just like when you connect your acoustic guitar to a DI.

 

As long as you keep the pickups selector in the bridge position (which has no function on this mode) and the model selector in the save position (lifted), the piezi ar on and the volume knob functions as well.

 

What I liked most about this is that (at least in my Variax 700), the acoustic models have a big problem: the D string has to much mids (around the 500 hz) and without a proper equaliser, I simply cannot obtain a nice acoustic sound. I am also convinced that the batteries will last a lot more! :)

 

I hope this helped!

 

Cheers!

 

Pedro Vieira

 

[Charlie_Watt]

I have never heard that this would work with a JTV.  Anyone tried it???

[clay-man]

When loading the models in old workbench on my old Variax, the Variax outputs raw piezo until all the models are done loading.

 

Removing the VDI during this process will make the Variax stuck on piezo sound until you turn it off and on again.

I'm not sure if this works with the JTV or new firmware.

 

It's probably not recommended either, but it does work, and proves that the Variax can output raw piezo sound.

 

 

The best thing to do is suggest Line 6 to allow bypass of modeling, or at least the pickup modeling.

[toasterdude]

You could modify your guitar to allow you to select between routing the piezos to the Variax electronics or directly to the existing 1/4" jack with a 6 pole double throw switch or a simple on off switch with a 6pdt relay.

 

This will void your warranty but is possible and would not be difficult or expensive.

 

 

 

If I could route raw piezos to variax electronics and also to 1/4 inch output at same time. I would dig it. Using an acoustic sim in variax mixed with raw piezo fed to fishman aura. . .. . hmmmmmmm. . . . . .

[TheRealZap]

oops

[Hey_Joe]

Zap-

I've been following this topic.

What did you mean by this comment?

don't leave use TonyEQ  :o

 

[TheRealZap]

ooops! sorry... wires crossed meant that for somewhere else.

[Hey_Joe]

Ah Ha... was trying to figure out what the heck you meant.

[snhirsch]

You could modify your guitar to allow you to select between routing the piezos to the Variax electronics or directly to the existing 1/4" jack with a 6 pole double throw switch or a simple on off switch with a 6pdt relay.

 

This will void your warranty but is possible and would not be difficult or expensive.

 

That type of relay is not a good bet for switching the raw piezo output.  The voltage and current levels are too low to punch through even a small amount of oxidation, and oxidize they will.  If you want to use relays, look for hermetically sealed units.

 

Something like an Omron G6A series (check Mouser, DigiKey, etc.).  They all appear to be DPDT, so you'll need three.

[zedopaido]

IMO tweaking with internal electronics and messing up with the parts on your JTV will just add more headache and take your main focus which is make music 

Please post this suggestion on the idea scale, even though I don't believe line 6 is giving a toss to the ideas in there.  But simply put, users should have access to the raw sound and tweak to their linking and add tuning etc. It would be wonderful if they actually gave us freedom.  I came across the raw sound when updating as I had my guitar still plugued in and as I was playing I heard the modelling cutting off only leaving the pure piezo.

I also noticed when updating to HD 2.10 from 1.71 you will here the clear piezo sounding really good for a couple of minutes then all of sudden it will get much louder and very annoyingly  mid range. Is like .....the ugly transformation of Bruce banner into the  Hulk.

[ColonelForbin]

I think being able to access the piezo signal; or at least, a 'piezo' version of the existing acoustic JTV models would be nice.

 

It would help greatly with being able to dial in a better JTV acoustic tone using a HD500 linked to a DT25 or other DT amp.

[zedopaido]

totally agree ColonelForbin 

[ColonelForbin]

This is the closet thing I can find on IdeaScale:

 

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Clean-piezo-signal-from-JTV/515946-23508

[amsdenj]

I submitted this:          Provide Variax direct Piezo output to use acoustic IRs in Helix       

[roscoe5]

I submitted this:          Provide Variax direct Piezo output to use acoustic IRs in Helix       

Voted up! May be picking up a variax this week and this would add much more flexibility

[clay-man]

No - the piezos apply when the Variax is in Model mode, and then it is using one of its internal models.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'raw piezo sound'. The piezos don't produce sound. Unless there's a guitar being modeled by the Variax, isn't that analogous to asking whether a 'real' guitar can be connected to your Aura Spectrum without the guitar producing its mag-pickup generated sound?

 

The piezos transmit waveforms from the string vibrations to the internal DSP processor. Are you asking that the guitar (any guitar - whether real or modeled Variax) be able to somehow output the raw string vibration wave-forms without having processed it, either by DSP modeling or by its onboard pickups? And if it could, does you Aura Spectrum handle that sort of 6-channel input (one channel per string)?

 

Wtf? The piezos produce a sound in the sense that it picks up the sound and produces a signal read from what it's hearing.

He's talking about the sound of the strings before they're processed and modeled, aka the piezo sound, like on electric guitars with a piezo system.

 

It would be nice to have as an option. Technically you don't even have to program anything other than code to bypass modeling, so unless there's no room for code for that, then it can surely be an added feature.

[amsdenj]

Any IR, whether in Helix or a Fishman Aura spectrum or any other acoustic processor can, and is often designed specifically to, utilize the direct output off piezo pickups. These pickups are pressure sensitive, generating a small voltage proportional to the pressure changes caused by a vibrating string. The Variax guitars could provide a model bypass mode where the modeling is turned off and the direct piezo outputs are available. These can then be processed by outboard processors using acoustic guitar body image IRs like Helix.

[klangmaler]

That's again something what we're waiting for. Workbench HD integration in Helix assumed!

Maybe (again: maybe) we'll have some nice  adjustments with the next (firmware) updates?!

[CipherHost]

Voted for every ideascale post that had to do with this topic. 

[roscoe5]

Voted up all as well...my acoustic IR's in Helix long for it.  Got an upright bass IR that I made for my Yamaha TRB-II 5P piezo-equiped bass the works pretty well with my Takamine acoustic guitar.  It would like be great with Variax and Helix.

 

3Sigma is kicking out nice acoustic IR's as well, and elude to IR's of utility and alternate acoustic instruments like mandolin, upraight bass, etc. as well.

 

I wouldnt say it needs to be "raw" as it should probably have the same balance and tuning controls of other Variax models.  It just needs to be raw and piezo-y enough to work well with 3rd party acoustic IR's.

[toasterdude]

Funny that I have spent time on acoustic patches to get them to sound more piezoish. New word.