Latency between patch switching is unbearable

[vinny199]

I don't really have a question I guess, except: is it something Line 6 can improve upon? Or is that it?

 

I have read a few threads / watched videos and so many people just say "use a single patch with various behaviours programmed" etc. "I can play an entire song with one patch" etc.

 

Good for you if you can.

 

I'm a singer / guitarist. I don't have time to remember on each song which button does what.

 

My tones are carefully crafted and layered out in patches in logical order (lower row: variation of clean, upper row various driven sounds). Each patch uses its own set of IRs for cabs etc.That is how I have organised my pedalboard for years and how I need to keep doing it.

 

While I am sure someone will try to prove that "YES! you can still do it all in one patch", I would say that it will involve "tap dancing" at some point" for sure in my caseand this is not at all how I want to use the unit.

 

I want to use it with individual patches clearly labelled and positioned to switch from without looking down much as I sing (which I've never had problem doing with my "normal" pedal board).   I thought this "user behaviour" would be a given... Apparently not.

 

I'm so disappointed. Just back from the rehearsal studio for the first time using the helix and it wasn't good.

 

The lag between patch changes is beyond acceptable and nothing I've seen in any other unit to such an extent.

 

It was so bad on changes between clean and distortion, when it is supposed to really kick in", that my entire downstroke on the chord is silent! bass and drums playing on their own but no guitar as helix is "doing his thing" changing patches.

 

Absolute vibe killer for a rock band.

 

I understand about digital latency and that it is normal, but this is way beyond anything normal. Could they not have added some kind of memory to preload all 8 patches of a batch or something along those lines?

 

I hope there is going to be improvements, but its been plenty of time since launch already so... maybe not?

 

Sorry if it sound like a rant. It probably is. Just so disappointed with how today went...

 

 

 

 

 

[Gawwuf]

Can you make a quick recording of how it is not working with how you play, I use a lot of different sounds, sometimes 4 per song and I don't have any problems. Seems about the same as other pedals I've owned.... except the GNX4 had the echo trails between patches that I really liked.

[mileskb]

My tones are carefully crafted and layered out in patches in logical order (lower row: variation of clean, upper row various driven sounds). Each patch uses its own set of IRs for cabs etc.That is how I have organised my pedalboard for years and how I need to keep doing it.

 

First... Respect for knowing exactly what you want.  

 

Second...  and I'm not being cheeky.  I have said this several times.   If the patch switching delay is that critical, just get a second Helix unit.  Have them either through a mixer or use the AUX or routing to get them together.   There are a plethora of ways to have one unit "staged" and then just switch to it instantly, no lag.

 

However, I have seen some people using some amazingly complicated patches, really putting the DSP through it's paces, with no lag.  

 

If you would share the block lists of two patches that have significant delay I'm sure someone would try to help streamline them WITHOUT going to a single patch situation.   No need to include parameters as they don't affect the over computing consumption.  Just the blocks.  

 

While I don't know for sure, I highly doubt this is an issue that has a "cure" for lack of a better term.  From my IT perspective, it's a hardware/functionality issue.  It's why the patches sound so good.  We don't switch between them, we load them.  Again, this isn't from 1st hand knowledge but more a guess... the only way to improve on the patch loading speed, would be to put in faster processors and faster memory on a faster circuit.   But then it would be a $5000 device, not a $1500 dollar device and people would then complain they couldn't load bitter IR's.

[cruisinon2]

The lag between patch changes is beyond acceptable and nothing I've seen in any other unit to such an extent.

 

It was so bad on changes between clean and distortion...

While it may not solve all of the issues you're having, the clean/dirty switch does have a solution. Almost all of my patches are dual-amp now. One clean path, and one dirty. Assign the channel volumes to the expression pedal so that toe-up is clean, toe-down is dirty (vice versa if you prefer). Morph smoothly from one to the other, no drop-outs. ...saves me a ton of grief.

[jaminjimlp]

As you have seen we have been down this path many times and on many threads... That said there is not much much more that can be added at this point. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to be nasty.... but this might just not be the unit for you. Am I saying that in the future that there may not be a work around for this...No.

 

I love my Helix and I to am a singer/guitarist also and have found something that works for me until then.

[mdmayfield]

It was so bad on changes between clean and distortion, when it is supposed to really kick in", that my entire downstroke on the chord is silent! bass and drums playing on their own but no guitar as helix is "doing his thing" changing patches.

 

 

Can you make a quick recording of how it is not working with how you play, I use a lot of different sounds, sometimes 4 per song and I don't have any problems. Seems about the same as other pedals I've owned.... except the GNX4 had the echo trails between patches that I really liked.

 

I agree with Gawwuf above. Can you make a recording of what you mean?

[gkinder]

As you have seen we have been down this path many times and on many threads... That said there is not much much more that can be added at this point. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to be nasty.... but this might just not be the unit for you. Am I saying that in the future that there may not be a work around for this...No.

 

I love my Helix and I to am a singer/guitarist also and have found something that works for me until then.

 

I believe that on one of the boards, can't remember which, Line 6 said this is on their docket of things to address after the editor was released, but my memory isn't what it used to be so take that with a grain of salt.  Doubt this is a hardware limitation but you never know.

[klangmaler]

What is your "normal" board then?

Why is switching between clean and distortion a problem?

Didn't you notice these things when you were assembling your patches?

 

"Beyond anything normal" is true - but for me it's exactly the other way around -

never had such a highly evolved briquet under my feet...

[trinitypc]

In some ways it most likely is a hardware limitation.  My understanding, after reading forum posts by Cliff from Fractal and the boys at Line 6 on the subject, is that you need a dedicated DSP to handling the change over from one patch to another to avoid a drop out.  In a box with two DSPs handling multiple paths (like the Helix), chances are you'd need two additional DSPs to handle seamless patch changes.   This is specifically why the Digitech GSP1101 was designed with two processors... one specifically to handle seamless patch switching.

[klangmaler]

...maybe, or eventually or possibly...

This discussion ist already extensively debated elsewhere!?

[gkinder]

In some ways it most likely is a hardware limitation.  My understanding, after reading forum posts by Cliff from Fractal and the boys at Line 6 on the subject, is that you need a dedicated DSP to handling the change over from one patch to another to avoid a drop out.  In a box with two DSPs handling multiple paths (like the Helix), chances are you'd need two additional DSPs to handle seamless patch changes.   This is specifically why the Digitech GSP1101 was designed with two processors... one specifically to handle seamless patch switching.

 

Interesting....have to think that one through a bit more....thanks!

[amsdenj]

I use one patch for the whole gig. It is configured with an amp and IR of speakers I know and love. It has all the effects I'd typically need and I don't even use those that often. To me, less is more with effects. It has three gain stages for Clean, Drive, Overdrive and Distortion operated by three foot switches. This is an incredible range of tones in a single patch. It's convenient, consistent, easy to use, and mimics what you'd likely have with a guitar amp and fixed pedalboard.

 

The reason I do this isn't because of limitations in Helix, patch switching delays, or lack of effect tails. It's because I want to focus on what I'm playing and not be distracted by switching a lot of things that the audience won't even notice, or worse will distract and confuse them. It's because I want my playing, and tone to have a recognizable identity and consistency so I can communicate musically rather than technically with the audience.

[zooey]

It has three gain stages for Clean, Drive, Overdrive and Distortion operated by three foot switches.

[OT, apologies] @amsdenj, this is what I want too, roughly. Are you doing those different gain levels with stomps, or by changing amp parameters? I'd like to use stomps for at least some of mine, but so far everyone has said you can't set up footswitches so that turning one block on turns some others off, because a given block can only be controlled by one footswitch. Do you know of a way to do that?

 

I probably want more than one setup like this, but the idea's the same.

[vinny199]

Really guys, I understand the argument for "my one patch does it all" kind of thing.

 

It is great it works for you.I get it.
 
Sadly, this is not an option for me.. (because of too many different sounds that need using through songs and sets)

 

 

What is your "normal" board then?

Why is switching between clean and distortion a problem?

Didn't you notice these things when you were assembling your patches?

 

Sir, thank you for your condescending message.
By normal board I meant little pedals you stick with little bits of velcro on a little board, like old times.

The thing I describe as nothing to do with clean or distortion. It was anecdotal. It has generally speaking to do with switching between 2 full patches.

No sir, I did not notice these things while assembling the patches as I had the Helix on my desk and was changing patching with fingers, not in real time playing a real song.

I also did not notice a big warning from Line 6 about latency in the sales pitch, but that's fair game I guess.

 

 

If you would share the block lists of two patches that have significant delay I'm sure someone would try to help streamline them WITHOUT going to a single patch situation.   No need to include parameters as they don't affect the over computing consumption.  Just the blocks.

Thanks!  Yes, I''' make a couple of my patches available for anyone who wants to have a look at them. The only thing is that I use OwnHammer commercial IRs, so I guess I'm not allowed to redistribute these freely...? Maybe I first need to find some free replacement IRs. I'll get going on that.

 

 

Can you make a quick recording of how it is not working with how you play, I use a lot of different sounds, sometimes 4 per song and I don't have any problems. Seems about the same as other pedals I've owned.... except the GNX4 had the echo trails between patches that I really liked.

Thanks. Yes, I will make a recording / video and update. Thanks!

[klangmaler]

Dear vinny199,

my questions weren't meant to be "condescending" - I just tried to be clear (and too sharply for you, obviously).

As someone stated earlier in this forum:

I hope that you'll find your gear...

[amsdenj]

[OT, apologies] @amsdenj, this is what I want too, roughly. Are you doing those different gain levels with stomps, or by changing amp parameters?

Both. A footswitch can support up to 8 settings, so this shouldn't be a problem. See https://jimamsden.wordpress.com/2015/12/29/creating-a-helix-electric-guitar-patch/ for details on how to design and setup this kind of patch.

[DrFishhead]

Fellas, why bother having a unit that supports some 1000 patches across, what, 8 set lists if you can't switch between them quickly? Yes agreed you can do a lot with a single patch---but I paid $1500. And I'm glad it hopefully sounds like Line6 is working this. Buying a second unit (!?!) as was suggested earlier is not even a consideration. Switching between patches quickly is a basic capability if you want to play live. If it can't do that, there's no need for _that_ many patches. It's like putting a V12 engine in your car but you can only drive around on donut tires.

[cruisinon2]

This will go over like a lead balloon, but it's true, so who cares...

 

$5 or $1500...makes no difference. Every modeler in the world has a lag between patches...save one...the Digitech whatever it is. It's mentioned in this thread somewhere, maybe I've got the manufacturer wrong, can't remember. If you want the most important/rewarding interaction that you have with a unit to be the time you spend BETWEEN presets, then you know where to shop.

 

Nothing's perfect...work with what you've got. I've been figuring out ways to camouflage the switch between tones for 20 years. Every rig I've ever had has suffered from this to some degree. If this is a deal breaker, I would have spent the last 2 decades throwing out gear every five minutes.

 

We'd all be much better players if we stopped whining about gear limitations, and just played the damn thing(s).

[jaminjimlp]

I smell a Rat... (or should I say a axe fx Troll...)  <_<

 

Look guys, the ones that do this all the time always have a low # of posts... they most likely don't even have a Helix or haven't even seen one except in pictures.... and this is the only thing they can harp on?!?!? I say I am glad I spent $1500 less on a unit that is on par with the "Cliff Box".... I think it is hilarious that they come here to troll, I have never went to the "cliff town forum" and don't even care...  B)

 

The fact of the matter is these guys don't really want any help they just want to knock the competition, so lets just move on and answer some real questions that the good folks that have a Helix are needing help with. ;)

[vinny199]

I smell a Rat... (or should I say a axe fx Troll...)  <_<

 

Look guys, the ones that do this all the time always have a low # of posts... they most likely don't even have a Helix or haven't even seen one except in pictures.... and this is the only thing they can harp on?!?!? I say I am glad I spent $1500 less on a unit that is on par with the "Cliff Box".... I think it is hilarious that they come here to troll, I have never went to the "cliff town forum" and don't even care...  B)

 

The fact of the matter is these guys don't really want any help they just want to knock the competition, so lets just move on and answer some real questions that the good folks that have a Helix are needing help with. ;)

 

Wow!! I wasn't expecting that....

I OWN the Helix. I bought it from Yamaha on pre-order in London UK.

I don't care whatsoever for Axe FX or any products I don't own.

I have also bough the full Glenn Delaunne patch collection and OwnHammer IRs.

Here is a pic of it in my living room infront of my Gretsch white panther.

But yes, keep telling yourself that anyone who says something you don't agree with is a troll.

[vinny199]

This will go over like a lead balloon, but it's true, so who cares...

 

$5 or $1500...makes no difference. Every modeler in the world has a lag between patches...save one...the Digitech whatever it is. It's mentioned in this thread somewhere, maybe I've got the manufacturer wrong, can't remember. If you want the most important/rewarding interaction that you have with a unit to be the time you spend BETWEEN presets, then you know where to shop.

 

Nothing's perfect...work with what you've got. I've been figuring out ways to camouflage the switch between tones for 20 years. Every rig I've ever had has suffered from this to some degree. If this is a deal breaker, I would have spent the last 2 decades throwing out gear every five minutes.

 

We'd all be much better players if we stopped whining about gear limitations, and just played the damn thing(s).

I get your point. I understand all this. What really got me is the actual length of the lag and how it handles it with a fade in / fade out.

That, I have not experienced before with any other unit (Some guy will no doubt accuse me of being a competitor troll again I guess..)

It is a very big lag and the volumes dips and rise, when playing loud through a PA is extremely apparent. (not so much when you play at bedroom levels)

It makes you sound like you are not tight with the band. That is what I was going on about.

Latency / lag in digital units? Yes, understood.

THAT BIG a gap (which many users have pointed out - Glenn Delaune was mentioning 250ms) is so noticeable to the hear that it is a problem to me and those who need to operate patch switching through their songs.

Again, this will only become very apparent to those who use patch swtiching live and LOUD. At home, at quiet levels, you may wonder whatb all the fuzz is about. But at loud live levels, the huge drop / fade in / fade out is impossible to disguise.

I hope Line 6 can at least half the lag. hopefully...

Thanks

 

[fukuri]

Hi Vinny

there has been a long debate on another thread that I don't want to revisit

just a few things

It's easy for people to be dismissive of other peoples problems but the lack of empathy is not very helpful so let me just say I recognise your issue and appreciate it makes life difficult for people who want to use the device in a certain way

The architecture of the device doesn't allow for shadowing without sacrificing significant DSP so I think we are stuck with it for the moment

On the plus side the dual DSP means you can do an awful lot more with a patch than you used to and many of us have managed to compress our rig effectively into a few patches without the need to change them mid song.

If you can't do that (and I can understand why that might not suit you) then you may need to look at an alternative device however there are a lot of devices with a lot of similar issues or sacrifices in other areas

If the Helix works for you in other ways then it may be worth putting a Boss DD7 or Alter Ego Delay pedal in one of the loops to help sillover between presets

Not an ideal solution but I'm afraid at the moment there isn't one

Possibly this will be looked at as a future update but best to deal with the here and now

Hope thats helpful

[gunpointmetal]

The patch lag was worse on the HD500 when it was released, I almost returned it. But they were able to get it down to usable with some firmware tweaks and I'm really hoping the same will be the case with the Helix. Until then I'm stuck using "dumbed down" versions of my recording/home practice tones live so I can fit a distortion and a clean channel in the same patch with a few effects.

 

The patch lag on Helix is TERRIBLE right now. Any arguments to otherwise are from people using simple patches, people playing music where a pause at the beginning of the measure won't be a big deal, or people playing in their bedroom without a band. I have some clean/distortion/clean changes that the patch lag would literally not be able to load the clean patch before I need to get back to distortion....

 

It's definitely something that needs to be worked on. 

 

My suggestion to the OP is to find something that will work for you RIGHT NOW. I can live with the single clean/distortion amp patches because the tones are that good, but I will welcome greatly any advancement in this area.

[vinny199]

Hi Vinny

there has been a long debate on another thread that I don't want to revisit

just a few things

It's easy for people to be dismissive of other peoples problems but the lack of empathy is not very helpful so let me just say I recognise your issue and appreciate it makes life difficult for people who want to use the device in a certain way

The architecture of the device doesn't allow for shadowing without sacrificing significant DSP so I think we are stuck with it for the moment

On the plus side the dual DSP means you can do an awful lot more with a patch than you used to and many of us have managed to compress our rig effectively into a few patches without the need to change them mid song.

If you can't do that (and I can understand why that might not suit you) then you may need to look at an alternative device however there are a lot of devices with a lot of similar issues or sacrifices in other areas

If the Helix works for you in other ways then it may be worth putting a Boss DD7 or Alter Ego Delay pedal in one of the loops to help sillover between presets

Not an ideal solution but I'm afraid at the moment there isn't one

Possibly this will be looked at as a future update but best to deal with the here and now

Hope thats helpful

Thanks. Seems to be the general consensus. You can only realistically use the helix live using 1 patch per song.

I can't help but feel this is an incredible let down and if more light had been made of this in their product description I would not have purchased it.

It is now too late for me to return it to the shop sadly.

Thanks again

 

 

The patch lag was worse on the HD500 when it was released, I almost returned it. But they were able to get it down to usable with some firmware tweaks and I'm really hoping the same will be the case with the Helix. Until then I'm stuck using "dumbed down" versions of my recording/home practice tones live so I can fit a distortion and a clean channel in the same patch with a few effects.

 

The patch lag on Helix is TERRIBLE right now. Any arguments to otherwise are from people using simple patches, people playing music where a pause at the beginning of the measure won't be a big deal, or people playing in their bedroom without a band. I have some clean/distortion/clean changes that the patch lag would literally not be able to load the clean patch before I need to get back to distortion....

 

It's definitely something that needs to be worked on. 

 

My suggestion to the OP is to find something that will work for you RIGHT NOW. I can live with the single clean/distortion amp patches because the tones are that good, but I will welcome greatly any advancement in this area.

I could not agree more

You have to miss at least the first beat of a bar, often more if it is a fast song, if you hit your patch change on the beat. Hopeless..

It looks like the only option is as you describe, a heavily compromised "do it all" single patch. I cannot see that working for me and I made some nice patches for cleans, distortion, fuzz and lead all using different amps, 2 cab IRs per amp and a bunch of effects for each option too. I'll never fit that in one patch. But anyway, as you said, let's hope they improve it. In my opinion it is not even fit for release in its actual state for people who want to use it changing patches in a live context.

Thanks

 

[zooey]

Both. A footswitch can support up to 8 settings, so this shouldn't be a problem. See https://jimamsden.wordpress.com/2015/12/29/creating-a-helix-electric-guitar-patch/ for details on how to design and setup this kind of patch.

I'm aware that one footswitch can switch many blocks, but as I understand it, a given block can only be controlled by one footswitch. If that's true, you can't have multiple footswitches that each turn one overdrive on and two others off, which is ideally what I'd want to do. Different overdrives in many cases are alternatives, not independent options.

[jaminjimlp]

Wow!! I wasn't expecting that....

I OWN the Helix. I bought it from Yamaha on pre-order in London UK.

I don't care whatsoever for Axe FX or any products I don't own.

I have also bough the full Glenn Delaunne patch collection and OwnHammer IRs.

Here is a pic of it in my living room infront of my Gretsch white panther.

But yes, keep telling yourself that anyone who says something you don't agree with is a troll.

OK... Sorry if I am so cynical, but as I posted before we have been down this path in many other threads and with the OP refuting every good work around that the other users throw out and some of your responses have been exactly like those. The guys here have helped me out a lot and it seemed to me that you were not going to be satisfied with any type of fix that was proposed to you.

 

Please share 2 presets you have made and the names of the Ownhammer IR's I have a bunch of them... and all the Redwires and the MixIRII program. Both Redwires and Ownhamer have freebies IR's they allow for download so others could try them as well.

 

I don't care if other people don't agree... It's just that people are here to help and we have delt with some trolling here and frankly your posts sounded a lot like them.

 

I am truly sorry.  

 

BTW nice lookin' guitar

[amsdenj]

I'm aware that one footswitch can switch many blocks, but as I understand it, a given block can only be controlled by one footswitch. If that's true, you can't have multiple footswitches that each turn one overdrive on and two others off, which is ideally what I'd want to do. Different overdrives in many cases are alternatives, not independent options.

Right. I use 3 footswitches (Clean is all off). The first one called Drive turns on a Studio Tube Pre set for some additional gain and voicing (a little bass and treble cut), and changes the Drive level into the amp to provide a driven sound without much tone change. Its just beyond the edge of distortion, thickened up, but not too much. The second switch called Overdrive uses the Teemah! or Minotaur, they're both good for this application. This is set for a bit more distortion for blues leads with more bass and treble cut for a more overdriven voicing. The third is called Distortion and uses a Compulsive Drive distortion model for heavier rock leads. 

 

Each of these switches sounds good by itself, but they can also be gain staged together. For example, the Drive and Overdrive together create a more aggressive blues lead tone, but with a different distortion level and voicing than the Distortion switch. This requires two switches to get the tone, but I like the flexibility of being able to gain stage these different distortion levels and voicings, just like you would with real pedals.

[gunpointmetal]

OK... Sorry if I am so cynical, but as I posted before we have been down this path in many other threads and with the OP refuting every good work around that the other users throw out and some of your responses have been exactly like those. 

The  workarounds suggested are only useful to "make it work". They don't allow you to use the device to its full potential in a live situations if you need quick patch switching, effectively making them "alternatives" to what you want to do instead of being an actual solution to a problem. 

 

I hope there's 5000 threads on the patch change issue so the people monitoring these forums see that its an important thing to to work on, or at least "fix" in the next generation. I'd have paid an extra $250 for immediate patch changes.

[hideout]

Every modeling unit I've ever owned has had a delay when switching patches. Maybe it's because I've used modelers for so long that this little bugaboo hasn't really gotten in my way. I just adjusted my playing to accommodate the delay and it simply has not been an issue.

 

2.5¢

[jaminjimlp]

Right. I use 3 footswitches (Clean is all off). The first one called Drive turns on a Studio Tube Pre set for some additional gain and voicing (a little bass and treble cut), and changes the Drive level into the amp to provide a driven sound without much tone change. Its just beyond the edge of distortion, thickened up, but not too much. The second switch called Overdrive uses the Teemah! or Minotaur, they're both good for this application. This is set for a bit more distortion for blues leads with more bass and treble cut for a more overdriven voicing. The third is called Distortion and uses a Compulsive Drive distortion model for heavier rock leads. 

 

Each of these switches sounds good by itself, but they can also be gain staged together. For example, the Drive and Overdrive together create a more aggressive blues lead tone, but with a different distortion level and voicing than the Distortion switch. This requires two switches to get the tone, but I like the flexibility of being able to gain stage these different distortion levels and voicings, just like you would with real pedals.

That sounds like its right up my ally... would you care to share?

[soundog]

Let's agree to disagree. I, like most, have absolutely no problems with what I perceive as an acceptable lag between patches. If I have songs in my set that have tunes that follow each other immediately, I make use of all the tones I need in a single patch. Most tunes have enough time between them to allow for complex patch changes, though, with no issue. Also, I've learned to take it avoid third-party IRs for less-critcal live use, I reserve those for use in the studio.

 

Not picking on the OP, but when folks buy new equipment, I wish they would

- buy with 30-day money-back guarantee

- try it out fully to ensure it meets their needs

- if it does, great!

- if it doesn't, return it and try something else (rather than generalizing on the product forum about how unusable the product is)

[jaminjimlp]

The  workarounds suggested are only useful to "make it work". They don't allow you to use the device to its full potential in a live situations if you need quick patch switching, effectively making them "alternatives" to what you want to do instead of being an actual solution to a problem. 

 

I hope there's 5000 threads on the patch change issue so the people monitoring these forums see that its an important thing to to work on, or at least "fix" in the next generation. I'd have paid an extra $250 for immediate patch changes.

DI already stated before it would take 2 more DSP chips to do a completely seamless change and those 2 extra chips would add a lot more cost to the unit.

Really though if you were using an amp and a peddle board you would have less that the helix provides IMHO... even if you had 2 amps 2 pedal boards and an a,b switch you would still be limited to what they could do and you would have spent a whole lot more money (and your back would be killing you). The 2 path setup is quite cool I think and has a ton of possibilities. 

As stated before by many here this is something that all (with one exception) MFX units suffer from.

 

DI also made a point that "the more complex the preset the longer it would take to load", so maybe spreading the blocks out some between the 2 paths and simplifying the preset by splitting one into two presets they would load a lot faster.

[gunpointmetal]

Comparing Helix to a real pedalboard set-up is apples to oranges.

Zoom has patch changes measured in single digit MS.

Previous L6 boards had it down to nearly-unnoticeable levels.

Part of, I imagine, a lot of people's reasoning behind getting a MFX is to have multiple possible "pedalboards" throughout a song. Right now, you can do ONE pedalboard with multiple FX if you need quick patch changes, meaning for those of us that need the fast changes, we can't use two drive amps in stereo and still have a clean channel unless its barebones of effects, or we have to use ONE drive amp, and ONE clean amp with the effects needed for a given song, severely limiting the capabilities of the device in that context. The tones are good enough that it is USABLE in that scenario, but its definitely not ideal to have to scrap my (IMHO) awesome practice/recording patches to be able to get the switching functionality that I (and obviously others) require for performance. 

[fukuri]

Does no one want to loop in a 50 quid delay pedal?

[gunpointmetal]

Lots of people buy MFX so they only have to bring one box with them. To me, and many others I'm sure, it doesn't make sense to have to add external effects to something with hundreds of effects built in. More pedals means more cables means more points for things to go wrong. It's another band-aid and not a solution to a problem. 

[zooey]

Right. I use 3 footswitches (Clean is all off). The first one called Drive turns on a Studio Tube Pre set for some additional gain and voicing (a little bass and treble cut), and changes the Drive level into the amp to provide a driven sound without much tone change. Its just beyond the edge of distortion, thickened up, but not too much. The second switch called Overdrive uses the Teemah! or Minotaur, they're both good for this application. This is set for a bit more distortion for blues leads with more bass and treble cut for a more overdriven voicing. The third is called Distortion and uses a Compulsive Drive distortion model for heavier rock leads. 

 

Each of these switches sounds good by itself, but they can also be gain staged together. For example, the Drive and Overdrive together create a more aggressive blues lead tone, but with a different distortion level and voicing than the Distortion switch. This requires two switches to get the tone, but I like the flexibility of being able to gain stage these different distortion levels and voicings, just like you would with real pedals.

Yeah, that's what I figured, thanks for confirming.

 

In Amplitube, these days I have a bunch of presets with multiple drive levels. Some are just an OD, some just an EQ, and some with an EQ-OD-EQ chain. You could chain them, and the very first level I do sometimes use with others, but they were mostly built to be used one at a time, would be too distorted for my typcial taste otherwise.

 

But like lots of other things, when my Helix arrives I'll just have to work out how I that stuff to work given its strengths and weaknesses.

[vinny199]

Does no one want to loop in a 50 quid delay pedal?

I will certainly try that, but what exactly do you mean? You need to have the delay on all the time then in all your patches?, and you are saying that in that case, the delay would ring between patch changes and cover the "uncomfortable silence" Helix does?

 

That sounds like a good idea, however it still won't make you tight with the band as such.. If I need the distortion patch to kick in on the first beat of the first bar of the chorus, the delay may well cover the silence but still the distortion patch will come in late, no?

 

OK... Sorry if I am so cynical, but as I posted before we have been down this path in many other threads and with the OP refuting every good work around that the other users throw out and some of your responses have been exactly like those. The guys here have helped me out a lot and it seemed to me that you were not going to be satisfied with any type of fix that was proposed to you.

 

Please share 2 presets you have made and the names of the Ownhammer IR's I have a bunch of them... and all the Redwires and the MixIRII program. Both Redwires and Ownhamer have freebies IR's they allow for download so others could try them as well.

 

I don't care if other people don't agree... It's just that people are here to help and we have delt with some trolling here and frankly your posts sounded a lot like them.

 

I am truly sorry.  

 

BTW nice lookin' guitar

No worries, apology accepted, and yes, it is a nice guitar!

And thanks a lot for offering to look at the presets. I will send 2 as soon as I get a chance. thanks.

 

Let's agree to disagree. I, like most, have absolutely no problems with what I perceive as an acceptable lag between patches. If I have songs in my set that have tunes that follow each other immediately, I make use of all the tones I need in a single patch. Most tunes have enough time between them to allow for complex patch changes, though, with no issue. Also, I've learned to take it avoid third-party IRs for less-critcal live use, I reserve those for use in the studio.

 

Not picking on the OP, but when folks buy new equipment, I wish they would

- buy with 30-day money-back guarantee

- try it out fully to ensure it meets their needs

- if it does, great!

- if it doesn't, return it and try something else (rather than generalizing on the product forum about how unusable the product is)

 

Equally, I wish manufacturers would be clearer about limitations of their products. That would also have been fair..If I had known it was not ideally suited to use in patch mode in live situation I would have not purchased it.

 

I had 30 days return, but as the Helix finally arrived to the UK and my purchase was finalised I had to travel for work, and now I'm using it, the 30days period expired. I don't dislike the product at all. With good IRs it sounds really great. I really like it. It is just that if you build real great patches that suit your songs you can't use them live... unless you compromise with a one patch fits all situation, which was not the plan.

As I said, it is hard to really get a sense of the lag / latency in a shop / home enviroment. To really hear what it does / how it affect you you need to play at loud gig volumes and hear it back throguh a PA.

 

In that case, the gap between your loud "playing sound" and the silence that follows (with a fade out / fade in) becomes a shock to the system and there is nowhere to hide. Your guitar just disappear from the mix. . That is where you really hear it. At home, at low volumes, you don't get a full sense of it. I certainly didn't until I took it to the rehearsal studio.

 

[vinny199]

Please share 2 presets you have made and the names of the Ownhammer IR's I have a bunch of them... and all the Redwires and the MixIRII program. Both Redwires and Ownhamer have freebies IR's they allow for download so others could try them as well.

 

Here are 2 patches I use for example.

One is my base clean sound and the IR used are some of the Ownhammer Fender cabs (1048) and the other one is my base distortion sound and uses 2 Ownhammer marshall IRs (1048 also)

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b0th0jxogvhz2f2/patches.zip?dl=0

 

So, thanks in advance if you see anyway of making the switch between these better...

[HonestOpinion]

DI already stated before it would take 2 more DSP chips to do a completely seamless change and those 2 extra chips would add a lot more cost to the unit.

Really though if you were using an amp and a peddle board you would have less that the helix provides IMHO... even if you had 2 amps 2 pedal boards and an a,b switch you would still be limited to what they could do and you would have spent a whole lot more money (and your back would be killing you). The 2 path setup is quite cool I think and has a ton of possibilities. 

As stated before by many here this is something that all (with one exception) MFX units suffer from.

 

DI also made a point that "the more complex the preset the longer it would take to load", so maybe spreading the blocks out some between the 2 paths and simplifying the preset by splitting one into two presets they would load a lot faster.

 

I think just getting the latency down to where it is less noticeable is the goal in mind.  Zero audible latency would be awesome but I don't think anyone is expecting that (not yet anyway). Also, if it was only about 2 more DSP processors then I wish they had included them. The DSP processors on the Helix are great quality but they are also very inexpensive. The two chips without markup would have added no more than slightly over $20 per Helix (per the pricing I saw on the Analog Devices website last time I checked). Now connecting them and supporting any additional hardware/software requirements, that may be more expensive, and I have no idea what that additional cost would be. But the additional chips would have been cheap.

[jaminjimlp]

Here are 2 patches I use for example.

One is my base clean sound and the IR used are some of the Ownhammer Fender cabs (1048) and the other one is my base distortion sound and uses 2 Ownhammer marshall IRs (1048 also)

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b0th0jxogvhz2f2/patches.zip?dl=0

 

So, thanks in advance if you see anyway of making the switch between these better...

I tried them and it is quite a quick drop out between presets, is it noticeable yes, horrible not really IMHO. that said I managed to do this. see if you like it.

 

I messed with your two presets and got them to pretty much fit on one preset and keep them the same and made the toggles swap tones

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c97vx10yzanpcu9/Clnfndr-Dist.hlx?dl=0

 

well it was worth a try, let me know if that will get you by.... Oh you will have to re-assign the IR's because I didn't use the same # positions.

 

Here is another preset I made and there are 2 IR's 1 is the Taylor acoustic that has been floating around and the other is one I made with the redwires IRMIX II program from free IR's I have found around the net (so I figure there OK to share) the Taylor (@#6) goes on the top path and the other goes in the bottom path (@#7)

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hk7i66s4luyym36/AABA5al160VMtvrD2fdkBEzZa?dl=0