Latency between patch switching is unbearable

[klangmaler]

This thread remains like 'Groundhog Day'...

[Shrednoise321]

Do you play live with the Helix and change patches during a song?

Yeah I do. Quite often. I play in a Comercial cover band and in my original band where that type of switching happens a lot.

[HonestOpinion]

I must be deaf. I don't hear any of the problems you guys are describing in this thread. To sell the helix is crazy in my opinion. I love mine!! Could there be a troll on the thread? IDK......

 

There is always the possibility in a large public forum that there are trolls, potentially on either side of the debate. Given how many people have chimed in on this one however I think it is safe to say that this is a legitimate discussion and issue. I am not sure how constructive it is to assert to this many people that their issue does not exist and is simply the result of what would have to be two troll armies given how many people feel the same way, either pro or con, on this issue.

[HonestOpinion]

This thread remains like 'Groundhog Day'...

 

Perfect! Although threads like this should stick around until the issue is either addressed to whatever extent possible or it is established that nothing further can or will be done (at which point they sometimes stick around anyway so people can vent).

[Shrednoise321]

Maybe it's a hardware issue. Sometimes people miss things. I'm not dismissing that others don't have an issue with their equipment. I'm only stating that I don't experience it and that to not give up. I think people are ready to jump ship because it's not Axe-fx or Kemper. I sold my Kemper cuz I hated it. My comments are not to be taken negatively.

[sotipay]

Only the existence of the perfect multifx device will stop users (and non-users too from what i gather from forums like this) from complaining and/or asking for stuff. Since the perfect multifx has never been achieved yet, and will never be achieved IMO, then discussions like this will continue on and on. Even the almighty and revered Axe Fx has its share of critics/complaints too bout patch change latency from what I have read in the Fractal forums. So carry on guys, discuss away.. Good thing is Line 6 actually encourages customers to speak up. Doesn't guarantee that you'll get what you want though..

[spikey]

Do you play live with the Helix and change patches during a song?

 

You bought Helix to play live?!? Bawahahahahaha..... 

 

 

 

;)

[spikey]

Couple of thoughts:

 

If people are unhappy they like to vent their frustrations/concerns and this forum is an obvious place to do it.

 

And let's all try to keep it civilised...

Hey Im not the one who suggested people leave if they didn't like what was being said... You have me confused with another there. I did suggest closing the thread however, because that horse has been dead for several pages now. Unless chasin yer tail is fun...I bet When yer toilets stopped ya keep trying to flush it lol.... Relax dude we want the same fix ðŸ˜

[fukuri]

I must be deaf. I don't hear any of the problems you guys are describing in this thread. To sell the helix is crazy in my opinion. I love mine!! Could there be a troll on the thread? IDK......

It could be you ...

[gunpointmetal]

I suggested unhelpful people with nothing to add to the conversation should not keep adding unhelpful nothing to the conversation. I can't really help it if someone's internet feeling got hurt.

[jorisgriffioen]

Only the existence of the perfect multifx device will stop users (and non-users too from what i gather from forums like this) from complaining and/or asking for stuff. Since the perfect multifx has never been achieved yet, and will never be achieved IMO, then discussions like this will continue on and on. Even the almighty and revered Axe Fx has its share of critics/complaints too bout patch change latency from what I have read in the Fractal forums. So carry on guys, discuss away.. Good thing is Line 6 actually encourages customers to speak up. Doesn't guarantee that you'll get what you want though..

 

People will always want better stuff. But the request here hasn't been "WE NEED SEAMLESS PATCHSWITCHING AND ETERNAL SPILLOVER!" it has been "can the latency be reduced to an acceptable level?"

 

There has barely been a question about how much lower would make it usable. The whole discussion is about it not being possible, workarounds and calling people that disagree with you trolls.

 

You guys really need to stop making this discussion about the validity of someone's experience. You don't imagine a silence between patch switches, it's there. You don't imagine missed notes, they are there ... IF you play in a situation that causes them. Apparently a lot people here play slower music or at home or in a two-guitar band, I don't know what, but the fact that this isn't a problem to you does not make it a non-issue to everybody.

 

This is product design 101 and as a community, don't you want the best out of the product you have?

 

That being said, as I previously said: if it were halved it would make the product usable to me. My input is of course moot since it's going back, but still, I'm interested to see what others think about that?

You can test it by making a recording, cutting in the silence and shifting the second bit.

[klangmaler]

My input is of course moot since it's going back, but still, I'm interested to...

 

...bring this thread up?

[jorisgriffioen]

...bring this thread up?

 

See it come to a fruitful conclusion. I'm still invested in the overall development of digital guitar effects. If Line 6 tackles this problem in this generation it will most likely not be an issue in the next and they can tackle other problems.

 

That said: thanks for the useful contribution to the information and tone of this thread...

[jaminjimlp]

I have posted some work arounds that seem to have gotten over looked because the don't include the patch change, I spent over an hour taking 2 of the OP's patches and making it one, I know its not a fix but it is a "work around" for the time being, maybe a second look at the single patch per song thing is worth another try and can be fezeable for now, I am in no way trying to push the issue at hand under the rug, I haven't had any time lately so I've not been here or had time to mess with patches, I would like to make a suggestion though, GET Creative!!! has any one tried to use a few different tone stacks and overdrives together to achieve a 4, 5, or 6 tone preset??

 

Remember I am not trying to say don't fix the latency issue just want to help till it's addressed.

 

Some of you should post some (4 or 5) of the presets that are in question and give some of us a chance to try and help consolidate the tones until the fix is in.

[johnnyspys]

There is a possible future solution but it depends on Line 6 and how Helix is designed.  Create a patch.  You can have two amps and lets says an od, two chorus 70s, two delays, a flange, three reverbs.  Ok, toggle to pedal mode.  For clean assign one chorus, delay, and verb to that pedal, then assign amp to another pedal (just drive nothing else), then a lead with the amp, reverb and delay to a third pedal. Finally, a flange distortion reverb to the fourth.  

Perhaps this is already possible in which case I will be keeping the unit.  Every company seems to use their own lingo and so perhaps I don't understand...which would make me happy.

The problem is as I see it, there is no "latch" mode in the pedal mode of helix.  What I mean is if I step on pedal 1, pedal 1 is activated and it shuts off pedal 2, 3, 4.  I then step on 2, and pedal 1, 3, 4 is deactivated.  In other words what ever muti-effect switch I hit all other switches are deactivated.  Why would I want this?  Think of it as multiple patches within a patch.  So I just load up the amps and sounds I want, I switch pedals with almost zero latency (because I am just turning on and off effects), and I could have four or five (perhaps more) different sonic textures that are truly different in terms of volume, delay time, tempo, expression control settings because I have a unique block for each multi-effect pedal (so one patch the delay assigned is controlled by the expression pedal, in another pedal it is the reverb that is controlled  not the delay.

I don't think this would take up any DSP, and it would be a real game changer for me.  Think of it as a virtual pedal looper like a boss es-8 where I program which pedals I have on my virtual board are going to be used when I hit bank 1, loop one vs loop 2.  

[trinitypc]

What you're describing could be accomplished by incorporating "Scenes" (like Fractal has with the AX8 and FX8)

[johnnyspys]

Scenes would be great but I don't need anything as complicated as scenes as I assume it might take some time to develop.  A simple latching system as a choice in a patch or even in the bottom four or only top four of the eight buttons I assume would take a small tweak to accomplish.  My hope is some patch could be done within a few weeks.  Of course this is wishful thinking because I am sure they have lots of things to work on.

[Perfect]

I suppose it depends what you define as a "scene".

 

Certainly the ability to assign the blocks within a patch set to either "on" or "off" to one footswitch, with other of patterns of blocks on and off assigned to other footswitches, would be a huge step forward.

 

What would be truly great is if you could also amend all the parameters within each block and save that as scenes within the patch - however I will accept the first option as a start :-)

[spikey]

I suppose it depends what you define as a "scene".

 

I define a scene as Fractal has done it. 1 patch, with several different settings,  all switchable between themselves with little latency (once you are unplugged from the USB / editor).

[johnnyspys]

I used the two tone preset and it is very close to what I am looking for.  You can turn on two distinct sounds with one switch which is great when the songs I play are only two tones.  Now if only I could set up four or five.  My band has a lot of swirling landscape, guitar synth stuff that then switches to rock guitar, then to clean police like chorus, then sometimes to thrash metal, then to noisy old Siouxsie and the banshees leads.  So the more flexibility to have four unique soundscapes within one patch would be perfect.   

 

If/when this issue is solved then I will worry about creating a good shimmer effect (there is sort of one in the reverb section now but it needs some real work to be similar to Eventide, Neunaber, FLux effects, or the Walrus audio stuff.  

[Ka5par]

The scenes could be also described as "snapshots" of the current situation that goes on in a patch.

That makes me think of a situation where you'd swap out an effect with another one and save it as as snapshot.

So switching snapshots would load different blocks to a patch.

 

Maybe, just maybe it'll be quicker to load just one different block than an entire patch, thus reducing the sound switching gap.

[sotipay]

I suppose it depends what you define as a "scene".Certainly the ability to assign the blocks within a patch set to either "on" or "off" to one footswitch, with other of patterns of blocks on and off assigned to other footswitches, would be a huge step forward.What would be truly great is if you could also amend all the parameters within each block and save that as scenes within the patch - however I will accept the first option as a start :-)

First option you stated is all that's needed. Since you can already assign parameter changes to footswithches then all that's left is to allow the assignment of the off/on state of a block to multiple switches and you've essentially got "scenes"

[HonestOpinion]

First option you stated is all that's needed. Since you can already assign parameter changes to footswithches then all that's left is to allow the assignment of the off/on state of a block to multiple switches and you've essentially got "scenes"

 

Agreed, the first option (on/off assigment) would be a great start, but full scene functionality would be ideal. This is the ability to not only assign the on/off function for a block to multiple footswitches but also to assign any parameter to multiple footswitches.  Right now you can only assign a parameter to a single footswtich. Full scene functionality allows for example, assigning three switches to respectively "clean", "crunch", "solo" and having each switch be able to change the drive, bass/mid/treble, and master volume on the amp and dial in different parameter settings in your effect chain (distortion, delay, reverb, etc.) as you press different footswitches. Right now, a parameter can only be assigned to one footswitch with a min/max setting. I would think once the functionality to assign on/off to multiple switches is there, including the same functionality for parameters would be just as easy to implement. If they give us scenes I hope they go for the whole ball of wax. However, if they take an incremental approach, on/off would be the best place to start.

[spikey]

The whole ball of wax causes lag,... Minimize cpu load times and switch faster.

[HonestOpinion]

The whole ball of wax causes lag,... Minimize cpu load times and switch faster.

 

I am all for minimizing load times and you left out the part of my quote that says if they need to take an incremental approach, on/off functionality would be a good place to start. However, I hope they include parameters as well as on/off if they give us scene functionality. If adding parameters to a scene adds load time that still leaves the user with a choice as to scene latency which is likely to be far less than preset latency; and again, that way you have the choice, you can not include parameter switching in your scenes. And let's not forget that scene switching includes spillover, so it is not just about latency. An analogy might be the way Line6 implemented their DSP in order to give users a choice on how to load blocks up rather than limiting them to for instance one Mod slot, one distortion slot, etc.. I see no reason not to continue their own development model that allows users to design presets in a manner that utilizes the Helix's resources in a fashion ideal for that user rather than hobbling the unit so for instance you don't get an "out of DSP" message; or in this case a potentially imperceptible increase in latency (parameters vs. no parameters). Why encourage only a partial scene mode when you have no idea if, or how much additional latency including parameters would entail?  That is for the L6 engineers to determine.

[andyboylett]

Bottom line with this is that when you spend a lot of money on a unit like this you don't expect to have to find a work around for something that should be a basic function. You should be able to switch seamlessly from one patch to another so if you want to go from a clean patch to a patch with whatever effects and then on to a completely different sound the unit should do that without you having to get a degree in programming it to try and make up for its shortcomings. 

 

EVERY multi effects unit I have ever owned has done this but I've paid a fortune for a "cutting edge technology" one that can't. Mine is going back to the dealer for a refund. This is obviously a huge problem for many owners otherwise this would not be such a hot topic. For Line6 to deny this is just fooling themselves.

[gunpointmetal]

They're not denying it necessarily...just denying that its a "flaw"....which it is....

[phil_m]

Bottom line with this is that when you spend a lot of money on a unit like this you don't expect to have to find a work around for something that should be a basic function. You should be able to switch seamlessly from one patch to another so if you want to go from a clean patch to a patch with whatever effects and then on to a completely different sound the unit should do that without you having to get a degree in programming it to try and make up for its shortcomings. 

 

EVERY multi effects unit I have ever owned has done this but I've paid a fortune for a "cutting edge technology" one that can't. Mine is going back to the dealer for a refund. This is obviously a huge problem for many owners otherwise this would not be such a hot topic. For Line6 to deny this is just fooling themselves.

 

Well, no currently made modelers offer seamless patch switching, so I'm not sure what modelers you've used. There are some that do have faster switching times, for sure, but they generally have other limitations. I guess it's all what's important to you.

 

But Line 6 isn't just doing nothing about this. They are creative guys.