Does anyone else find the Reverbs in Helix really disappointing?

[Dshow]

From the replies it seems that reverbs are fine in the scenarios where you don't hear them :)

 

That might be true. I set the reverb so that you rather feel it more than you hear it, unless I use it as an effect.

[njglover]

Try placing spring in front of amp instead of after. I've found that it gives a better representation...I had same thoughts about it awhile back and this blew me away when I tried it.

 

I usually do the amp and cab as separate blocks and I'll stick the reverb after the amp but before the cab. When I want a reverb that sounds like an amp reverb, this works great. Setting it after the amp makes it sound too much like an effect and I don't like that (most of the time).

[PeterHamm]

I usually do the amp and cab as separate blocks and I'll stick the reverb after the amp but before the cab. When I want a reverb that sounds like an amp reverb, this works great. Setting it after the amp makes it sound too much like an effect and I don't like that (most of the time).

 

This right here.

 

Never... ever... ever... use the amp+cab blocks. ALWAYS separate them... It's like having an FX loop in your amp almost.

[hideout]

I like reverb. That said, I don't have any issues with the Helix 's reverbs, just an observation. I usually gravitate towards the hall reverbs on past devices. On the Helix, I tend to like the plate reverb better. It sounds closer to the hall reverbs on my older units. The hall verb on the Helix is a bit too subtle for me.

 

If I could wish for anything, it's that the stereo effects would sum to mono a bit better. Maybe that would require reworked mono effects, I don't know. But it would be nice to have a stereo effect not lose too much from phase cancellation when you occasionally use the Helix in mono.

This is a malady that plagues almost all stereo effects devices as well as sample playback synthesizers and is very apparent on acoustic piano samples.

[hideout]

This right here.

 

Never... ever... ever... use the amp+cab blocks. ALWAYS separate them... It's like having an FX loop in your amp almost.

This would be made even better with separate Preamp and Power Amp blocks.

[PeterHamm]

This would be made even better with separate Preamp and Power Amp blocks.

 

maybe, but the effect is close enough in my experience so far.

 

Go Amp -> Spring reverb -> cabinet... it sounds like it should.

[silverhead]

I usually do the amp and cab as separate blocks and I'll stick the reverb after the amp but before the cab. When I want a reverb that sounds like an amp reverb, this works great. Setting it after the amp makes it sound too much like an effect and I don't like that (most of the time).

 

I also experiment with a split path between amp and cab blocks. I put the reverb alone on one of the splits, and my other post-amp FX like chorus and delay in the other path. That way the reverb is not applied to the chorus and delay, or vice versa. The paths merge just before the cab. Subtle differences but noticeable.

[ericjutsu]

 I really hope they add new HX reverbs to the Helix.  I love reverb and often use FX heavy sounds and it would be nice to have reverbs of the same quality of everything else in the Helix. 

[Lachdanan0121]

 I really hope they add new HX reverbs to the Helix.  I love reverb and often use FX heavy sounds and it would be nice to have reverbs of the same quality of everything else in the Helix. 

This is exactly how I feel as well. I will be using it a ton with what I do.  However, DI stated that building HX reverbs for the Helix is on their to-do list. So I am a bit more relieved that they should be coming at some point.  I just really hope that HX reverbs won't be too terribly far off. 

 

That said, I can make do with the few dedicated reverb plugins I use until then. 

[Digital_Igloo]

This is exactly how I feel as well. I will be using it a ton with what I do.  However, DI stated that building HX reverbs for the Helix is on their to-do list. So I am a bit more relieved that they should be coming at some point.  I just really hope that HX reverbs won't be too terribly far off.

 

To be fair, our wish list is gargantuan—many hundreds of features and many hundreds of models. We likely won't get to 90% of it before Helix is EOL'ed who-knows-how-many-years from now. That's why IdeaScale is important; it helps dictate what ends up in the 10% we do get to. A big part of my job is prioritizing that list; that's why I wear asbestos pants every day.

[Lachdanan0121]

To be fair, our wish list is gargantuan—many hundreds of features and many hundreds of models. We likely won't get to 90% of it before Helix is EOL'ed who-knows-how-many-years from now. That's why IdeaScale is important; it helps dictate what ends up in the 10% we do get to. A big part of my job is prioritizing that list; that's why I wear asbestos pants every day.

I searched IdeaScale first, and didn't see one. 

 

So I created an IdeaScale of HX reverb models. 

This is the link.

 

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/NEW-HX-Reverb-models-added-to-Helix-line/818580-23508?submitted=1

[bobguido]

Regarding the Helix reverbs and possible development of new Helix reverbs,

While everyone has a different opinion about how reverb should be used in music recording and while I often agree with the notion that reverb needs to be felt and not heard, especially on rhythmic sound sources like bass and drums where the inteligibility of the source material could quickly become muddy, washed out, undefined and sloppy sounding, I will say this...

Many artists, (especially these days) like to push reverb to the extremes and the reverb BECOMES the sound of the music.  Especially in the more ambient styles of music where you are often listening to the 100% wet signal of a reverb unit throughout a piece of music.  And in those cases, the reverb algorithm used was often something very un-natural and more fantasy like


Some examples of extreme reverb use in popular music:

The drum sound on When The Levee Breaks by Led Zeppelin
The guitar sound on the first Van Halen Record
The guitar, vocal and keyboard sounds on The Cure's Disintegration album
The guitar and vocal sounds on The Cocteau Twins albums
The Guitar, vocal and keyboard sounds on U2's Unforgetable Fire
The entire sound of Apollo and all of the ambient record by Eno/Lanois
The keyboard, saxaphone and orchestral sounds on the Blade Runner soundtrack by Vangelis
The vocal and keyboard sounds on any ENYA record
The bowed guitar sound on Jonsi Birgisson's guitar from Sigur Ros 100% wet
Almost all the sounds on every Hammock album use reverbs mixed well above the 50% range


In all of these landmark records, you are hearing gorgeous otherworldly reverbs (mostly Lexicon but some Alesis, some EMT, some TC Electronic, some Boss, some Eventide, some Strymon and some natural) in the mix, often 50% wet compared to the dry signal and on some instruments, above a 50% mix, sometimes 100% reverb mix like on Jonsi's bowed guitar or many of Hammock's guitar layers.

I mention other companies who make otherworldly reverb algorithms that sound amazing 100% wet.  Most recently Strymon with their Big Sky has revolutionized the sound design of digital reverbs.  Some of their Big Sky algoritms such as Cloud, Bloom, Swell, Corale and Nonlinear go well beyond the Lexicon 224, PCM92, Eventide H8000 and Bricasti reverbs.  

With such an amazing product that the Helix is and with the quality of it's amp simulations, modulations and delays stacking up to the competition, I personaly think the reverbs could also be worked on to compare with some of the best algorithms out there today.  I will say that reverbs are also the weak point of the other modeling product I have used for years.  It's reverbs are flat, boring and do nothing to wow me like the Strymon Big Sky or Lexicon PCM92 concert hall algorithm does.


Helix otherwise is an amazing product.  The design of how it operates is genius.  I love that you can work with it on the floor or a table top with ease.  The Auto Volume Echo from the DL4 would be great to have as well.  The Auto Volume Echo in the DL4 is way more chewy and ramps better than the one from the Echo Park or the M series pedals.

[HonestOpinion]

 

Regarding the Helix reverbs and possible development of new Helix reverbs,

 

While everyone has a different opinion about how reverb should be used in music recording and while I often agree with the notion that reverb needs to be felt and not heard, especially on rhythmic sound sources like bass and drums where the inteligibility of the source material could quickly become muddy, washed out, undefined and sloppy sounding, I will say this...

 

Many artists, (especially these days) like to push reverb to the extremes and the reverb BECOMES the sound of the music.  Especially in the more ambient styles of music where you are often listening to the 100% wet signal of a reverb unit throughout a piece of music.  And in those cases, the reverb algorithm used was often something very un-natural and more fantasy like

 

 

Some examples of extreme reverb use in popular music:

 

The drum sound on When The Levee Breaks by Led Zeppelin

The guitar sound on the first Van Halen Record

The guitar, vocal and keyboard sounds on The Cure's Disintegration album

The guitar and vocal sounds on The Cocteau Twins albums

The Guitar, vocal and keyboard sounds on U2's Unforgetable Fire

The entire sound of Apollo and all of the ambient record by Eno/Lanois

The keyboard, saxaphone and orchestral sounds on the Blade Runner soundtrack by Vangelis

The vocal and keyboard sounds on any ENYA record

The bowed guitar sound on Jonsi Birgisson's guitar from Sigur Ros 100% wet

Almost all the sounds on every Hammock album use reverbs mixed well above the 50% range

 

 

In all of these landmark records, you are hearing gorgeous otherworldly reverbs (mostly Lexicon but some Alesis, some EMT, some TC Electronic, some Boss, some Eventide, some Strymon and some natural) in the mix, often 50% wet compared to the dry signal and on some instruments, above a 50% mix, sometimes 100% reverb mix like on Jonsi's bowed guitar or many of Hammock's guitar layers.

 

I mention other companies who make otherworldly reverb algorithms that sound amazing 100% wet.  Most recently Strymon with their Big Sky has revolutionized the sound design of digital reverbs.  Some of their Big Sky algoritms such as Cloud, Bloom, Swell, Corale and Nonlinear go well beyond the Lexicon 224, PCM92, Eventide H8000 and Bricasti reverbs.  

 

With such an amazing product that the Helix is and with the quality of it's amp simulations, modulations and delays stacking up to the competition, I personaly think the reverbs could also be worked on to compare with some of the best algorithms out there today.  I will say that reverbs are also the weak point of the other modeling product I have used for years.  It's reverbs are flat, boring and do nothing to wow me like the Strymon Big Sky or Lexicon PCM92 concert hall algorithm does.

 

 

Helix otherwise is an amazing product.  The design of how it operates is genius.  I love that you can work with it on the floor or a table top with ease.  The Auto Volume Echo from the DL4 would be great to have as well.  The Auto Volume Echo in the DL4 is way more chewy and ramps better than the one from the Echo Park or the M series pedals.

 

 

That is some seriously impressive expertise on reverbs!

[Digital_Igloo]

Some examples of extreme reverb use in popular music:

 

Big fan of Hammock. Check out Caspian if you haven't already; Strymon's El Capistan (and I believe Big Sky) are all over the new record.

 

IIRC, Sigur Rós uses an AMS RMX 16 reverb for most of their records.

 

The first two Joy Formidable records are awash in ParticleVerb.

 

There's also a huge compliment of 90s shoegaze bands that relied on grainy Alesis Midiverbs and old Zoom multieffects to great effect (no pun intended). Ben and I have talked about maybe modeling them way in the future, after we get some cleaner verbs in there.

 

Although the Bricasti's a $3800 box that does nothing but one reverb at a time, the old EMT 250 from the 70s sounds amazing to this day—I believe the UA plugin isn't even a model; it runs licensed algorithms from the real hardware. My favorite reverb is still probably the Ensoniq DP/4—not the quietest, but it seemed to sit in the mix just so.

 

Years ago I bought the PCM Native Reverb bundle from Lexicon at full price ($1400), assuming that, for the price, it must include all the algorithms from my PCM 91 so I could go completely in-the-box. Nope, none of the pitch stuff was ported over; still need the 91 for its Rolling Thunder preset. Lesson learned.

 

Other bands who make great use of reverb:

 

This Will Destroy You

ERAAS

Foals

Washed Out

Verve's A Storm in Heaven

[zooey]

Just cut to the chase and hire Sean Costello from Valhalla to do a few :)

 

AFAIK, he hasn't worked with this kind of processor, but his knowledge and practical experience writing great-sound real-world performing reverb algorithms would be invaluable.

[PeterHamm]

Before we cram too many studio verbs into Helix... let's remember... it's a GUITAR processor.

[duncann]

Before we cram too many studio verbs into Helix... let's remember... it's a GUITAR processor.

 

Of course it is. Curious to know what that means exactly for specific effects?

[PeterHamm]

Of course it is. Curious to know what that means exactly for specific effects?

 

it means (hyperbole alert) that if you're trying to get them to send their valuable time modeling the perfect snare verb or vocal verb or what have you, instead of things that a LOT of guitarists want mostly, sales will drop off, there will never be a Helix 2, and DI will have to get a job at McDonalds to feed his kids... I don't want that.

 

No... seriously... better verbs for guitar and such? Yes please (although I like what we have in there now). Big Sky type stuff? Yes, Please.

 

Lots of studio verbs for vocals and snares and such? No thanks. Give us more amp models, more pedal models, something like "scenes" in Axe-land... stuff like that.

[migueledge]

Yep, the reverbs (and 8 of the ten wahs) were taken from M-series/HD—everything else was built from scratch in HX. To be honest, we just ran out of time, and the only alternative would've been to have waited longer before release. Then no one here would be talking about Helix, because it'd still be top secret.

 

I think helix is a beta product that users are debugged. But it cost too much for debugged, you must pay to users for debug. I think that could be a great unit, but actually are other units better for the same price, i´m going to selling my helix and change for ax8. Maybe when line6 purified Helix I purchase it again or no. ye you are disappointing many users.

 

 

So, there it is, one update per month isn't enough for you. Okay, if that's your metric for quality, maybe you should simply go with the product that has the greatest frequency of firmware updates. (I kid, I kid... but...)

 

 

It is preferable to have less frequency of updates and bring to market a product established.

[spikey]

it means (hyperbole alert) that if you're trying to get them to send their valuable time modeling the perfect snare verb or vocal verb or what have you, instead of things that a LOT of guitarists want mostly, sales will drop off, there will never be a Helix 2, and DI will have to get a job at McDonalds to feed his kids... I don't want that.

 

No... seriously... better verbs for guitar and such? Yes please (although I like what we have in there now). Big Sky type stuff? Yes, Please.

 

Lots of studio verbs for vocals and snares and such? No thanks. Give us more amp models, more pedal models, something like "scenes" in Axe-land... stuff like that.

Exactly Hamm... +1

[PeterHamm]

I think helix is a beta product that users are debugged. But it cost too much for debugged, you must pay to users for debug. I think that could be a great unit, but actually are other units better for the same price, i´m going to selling my helix and change for ax8. Maybe when line6 purified Helix I purchase it again or no. ye you are disappointing many users.

 

 

 

 

It is preferable to have less frequency of updates and bring to market a product established.

 

Or maybe it's just not for you... that's okay! There are a LOT of happy users out there.

[duncann]

it means (hyperbole alert) that if you're trying to get them to send their valuable time modeling the perfect snare verb or vocal verb or what have you, instead of things that a LOT of guitarists want mostly, sales will drop off, there will never be a Helix 2, and DI will have to get a job at McDonalds to feed his kids... I don't want that.

 

No... seriously... better verbs for guitar and such? Yes please (although I like what we have in there now). Big Sky type stuff? Yes, Please.

 

Lots of studio verbs for vocals and snares and such? No thanks. Give us more amp models, more pedal models, something like "scenes" in Axe-land... stuff like that.

 

I guess I have limited to no experience with reverbs for vocals and snares. Is there really that much of a difference between a single-purposed reverb like that and one for guitar?

 

I do notice that most of the reverbs currently in Helix can be made to sound similar to each other, depending on the settings of each. There are differences between them, but they are subtle, and become even less when you make the reverb felt, rather than heard, as mentioned above by Ka5par and Dshow.

 

With you though about what kind of HX reverbs should be added.

[ajm583]

It sounds like reverb. Same reverb on every other device I've ever owned. What's the big deal turn it up turn it down turn it off.

[Digital_Igloo]

it means (hyperbole alert) that if you're trying to get them to send their valuable time modeling the perfect snare verb or vocal verb or what have you, instead of things that a LOT of guitarists want mostly, sales will drop off, there will never be a Helix 2, and DI will have to get a job at McDonalds to feed his kids... I don't want that.

 

Kids?! I don't have enough time for a dog.  :wacko:

 

I think helix is a beta product that users are debugged. But it cost too much for debugged, you must pay to users for debug. I think that could be a great unit, but actually are other units better for the same price, i´m going to selling my helix and change for ax8. Maybe when line6 purified Helix I purchase it again or no. ye you are disappointing many users.

 

It is preferable to have less frequency of updates and bring to market a product established.

 

Forest for the trees, my friend.

 

I'll be the first to stress that one should always buy a product for what it does now—not what they think it will or should do. If Helix's current offerings don't suit you, then yes, there's nothing wrong with looking elsewhere.

 

But here's a guarantee with 100% certainty—things are exactly the same at Fractal, Kemper, Roland, Korg, Universal Audio, AVID, Akai, Native Instruments, Moog, Apple, Google, Valve, Sony, REDD, Tesla, Audi, VW, and any other company that makes hardware or software of any complexity:

• There's a list of things the PM wanted to get in before release (prioritized largely by market value) but didn't
• There's a list of bugs the PM wanted to get fixed by 1.00 (prioritized largely by severity) but didn't
• At a certain point, the line gets snapped

For the record, we were really happy with where we were when our line got snapped, and we'd like to think that's reflected in Helix sales and reviews.

 

Fractal and Kemper also have forums dedicated to feature requests and bug reports. Both are filled with people bemoaning the fact that certain things weren't included or fixed from the beginning. Both would be out of business if they chased that dragon too long before releasing their products into the wild. So would Line 6; such is business.

 

This issue isn't about features or bugs, it's about transparency.

 

Transparency doesn't matter to most dudes noodling in their den, but it's mission critical to engineers at the Record Plant or guitar techs at Madison Square Garden. That's why Sony lists bugs and new features for their über-expensive broadcast video gear, but good luck finding what was fixed or missing in the latest PlayStation rev. That's why Apple lists hundreds of bugs and new features for Logic Pro X, but good luck finding what was fixed or missing in your iPod nano.

 

Some people don't wanna know how the sausage is made. I get that.

 

Good luck with your search. There's a ton of killer gear out now.  :)

[Lachdanan0121]

it means (hyperbole alert) that if you're trying to get them to send their valuable time modeling the perfect snare verb or vocal verb or what have you, instead of things that a LOT of guitarists want mostly, sales will drop off, there will never be a Helix 2, and DI will have to get a job at McDonalds to feed his kids... I don't want that.

 

No... seriously... better verbs for guitar and such? Yes please (although I like what we have in there now). Big Sky type stuff? Yes, Please.

 

Lots of studio verbs for vocals and snares and such? No thanks. Give us more amp models, more pedal models, something like "scenes" in Axe-land... stuff like that.

Agreed, however since the Helix is also marketd as a central nervous system for your studio. Having a couple of reverbs that arent just for guitar could be useful. Such as a handful decent vocal, and bass guitar reverbs. I agree prioritize, and dont oversaturate. However, vocals and bass guitar are still something the helix is suppose to incorporate anyway.

Honestly a lot of the guitar focused ones will work fine for those applications for the most part anyway. But, one or two focused on those wouldn't hurt.

[BigRalphN]

I guess I am an oddball. I personally think Strymon Reverbs sound unnaturally clean and pristine and find them s total waste of money. Nothing sounds like line a big tank spring but a big tank spring. Nothing sounds like s plate but a plate. I have done side by sides in big studios and there is no true digital replacement for either. Now that said, Helix and others can do a convincing replication. So much so that without a true side by side most people will not know the difference unless you are trying to be lollipop Dale and be mega splashy or some super ambient plate or hall stuff. For live work no one will know the difference. Period. Sure the musician might but it means nothing live. A prefer a wacky old Rev 7 reverb over Strymon. Totally unnatural in comparison but in its day it was the bomb and still can sound great and unique in a mix. If I want to buy a reverb unit and spend big bucks then I will double the Strymon price an get a good Lexicon or TC Electronics rack unit. Basically because I feel that only in a studio setting dies the high end stuff come into play (unless your are a million dollar band then put a rack of reverb racks in your rig). Each to there own. I know Strymon has carved out a high end pedal market that people, especially the Praise and Worship crowd, love. If that's your thing then go for it. I can gaurentee that you can set the Helix as best as you can and no more than one percent of the audience would have a clue it sounded worse or better. Please, I am not trying to slam anyone. Disappointing? From a studio sense compared to some of the others I guess it is. But it's still more than passable for live applications and everything I hear from line 6 suggests we just give them time This unit is constantly improving. As someone in on the first batch I can say it has already made a big leap forward and I know it's only going to get better.

[BigRalphN]

I also chuckled at the reverbs are good if not heard comment as that was actually the idea behind reverbs initially. The whole idea was to recreate the natural sound of a room or hall in a studio setting. Bands like The Beatles ans surf bands changed this by turning things up to unnatural settings and deciding "Hey, this is cool". Like another said, most of my settings still are of the sort that you only know it's there if you turn it off type. I do some surfy stuff but I really don't care for most of the ambient wash. I do some at church because it's expected, but it's not my thing.

[HonestOpinion]

 

Regarding the Helix reverbs and possible development of new Helix reverbs,

 

While everyone has a different opinion about how reverb should be used in music recording and while I often agree with the notion that reverb needs to be felt and not heard, especially on rhythmic sound sources like bass and drums where the inteligibility of the source material could quickly become muddy, washed out, undefined and sloppy sounding, I will say this...

 

Many artists, (especially these days) like to push reverb to the extremes and the reverb BECOMES the sound of the music.  Especially in the more ambient styles of music where you are often listening to the 100% wet signal of a reverb unit throughout a piece of music.  And in those cases, the reverb algorithm used was often something very un-natural and more fantasy like

 

 

Some examples of extreme reverb use in popular music:

 

The drum sound on When The Levee Breaks by Led Zeppelin

The guitar sound on the first Van Halen Record

The guitar, vocal and keyboard sounds on The Cure's Disintegration album

The guitar and vocal sounds on The Cocteau Twins albums

The Guitar, vocal and keyboard sounds on U2's Unforgetable Fire

The entire sound of Apollo and all of the ambient record by Eno/Lanois

The keyboard, saxaphone and orchestral sounds on the Blade Runner soundtrack by Vangelis

The vocal and keyboard sounds on any ENYA record

The bowed guitar sound on Jonsi Birgisson's guitar from Sigur Ros 100% wet

Almost all the sounds on every Hammock album use reverbs mixed well above the 50% range

 

 

In all of these landmark records, you are hearing gorgeous otherworldly reverbs (mostly Lexicon but some Alesis, some EMT, some TC Electronic, some Boss, some Eventide, some Strymon and some natural) in the mix, often 50% wet compared to the dry signal and on some instruments, above a 50% mix, sometimes 100% reverb mix like on Jonsi's bowed guitar or many of Hammock's guitar layers.

 

I mention other companies who make otherworldly reverb algorithms that sound amazing 100% wet.  Most recently Strymon with their Big Sky has revolutionized the sound design of digital reverbs.  Some of their Big Sky algoritms such as Cloud, Bloom, Swell, Corale and Nonlinear go well beyond the Lexicon 224, PCM92, Eventide H8000 and Bricasti reverbs.  

 

With such an amazing product that the Helix is and with the quality of it's amp simulations, modulations and delays stacking up to the competition, I personaly think the reverbs could also be worked on to compare with some of the best algorithms out there today.  I will say that reverbs are also the weak point of the other modeling product I have used for years.  It's reverbs are flat, boring and do nothing to wow me like the Strymon Big Sky or Lexicon PCM92 concert hall algorithm does.

 

 

Helix otherwise is an amazing product.  The design of how it operates is genius.  I love that you can work with it on the floor or a table top with ease.  The Auto Volume Echo from the DL4 would be great to have as well.  The Auto Volume Echo in the DL4 is way more chewy and ramps better than the one from the Echo Park or the M series pedals.

 

 

 

Big fan of Hammock. Check out Caspian if you haven't already; Strymon's El Capistan (and I believe Big Sky) are all over the new record.

 

IIRC, Sigur Rós uses an AMS RMX 16 reverb for most of their records.

 

The first two Joy Formidable records are awash in ParticleVerb.

 

There's also a huge compliment of 90s shoegaze bands that relied on grainy Alesis Midiverbs and old Zoom multieffects to great effect (no pun intended). Ben and I have talked about maybe modeling them way in the future, after we get some cleaner verbs in there.

 

Although the Bricasti's a $3800 box that does nothing but one reverb at a time, the old EMT 250 from the 70s sounds amazing to this day—I believe the UA plugin isn't even a model; it runs licensed algorithms from the real hardware. My favorite reverb is still probably the Ensoniq DP/4—not the quietest, but it seemed to sit in the mix just so.

 

Years ago I bought the PCM Native Reverb bundle from Lexicon at full price ($1400), assuming that, for the price, it must include all the algorithms from my PCM 91 so I could go completely in-the-box. Nope, none of the pitch stuff was ported over; still need the 91 for its Rolling Thunder preset. Lesson learned.

 

Other bands who make great use of reverb:

 

This Will Destroy You

ERAAS

Foals

Washed Out

Verve's A Storm in Heaven

 

Look at the big brains on bobguido and DI. That is some next level sh***t regarding reverbs.  Can't wait to see some of it show up in the Helix  ;)

[HonestOpinion]

Before we cram too many studio verbs into Helix... let's remember... it's a GUITAR processor.

 

And potentially a very powerful vocal processor. We are not currently in any danger of putting too many reverbs in Helix.  A couple of Lexicon and other reverb emulations would be welcome. Even Line6 has pointed out this is an area that could bear improvement.  However, point taken, the Helix is first and foremost a guitar processor and there are other areas to focus on as well.

[lawrence_Arps]

Craig Anderton  (if you don't know just google!) said this

 

"These reverbs are light years ahead of the digital reverbs you used to find in multieffects, which sounded grainy, periodic, and often had to be mixed in the background so you wouldn't notice how bad they were. I'd have no problem using these on voice, drums, and other signal sources, which makes me wonder if maybe Helix is going to end up being a platform, and not just a guitar effects...sort of the hardware equivalent of how Native Instruments' Guitar Rig was transformed into more of a general-purpose studio processor rack.....

 

These reverbs are light years ahead of the digital reverbs you used to find in multieffects, which sounded grainy, periodic, and often had to be mixed in the background so you wouldn't notice how bad they were. I'd have no problem using these on voice, drums, and other signal sources, which makes me wonder if maybe Helix is going to end up being a platform, and not just a guitar effects...sort of the hardware equivalent of how Native Instruments' Guitar Rig was transformed into more of a general-purpose studio processor rack."

 

yup high praise indeed from someone who actually knows!

[migueledge]

Or maybe it's just not for you... that's okay! There are a LOT of happy users out there.

 

Or maybe too much marketing and the same effects since 20 year ago.

 

Yes, it could be the 20th aniversary of line6!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

 

Thanks line6!!!

[bobguido]

Digital Igloo,

I enjoy your taste in music and reverb.  I know Caspian.  I will check out the others!  Thank you.

Sigur Ros uses the classic RMX-16 for Jonsi's vocal monitoring and sometimes used it in a final mix.  The 100% wet reverb used on his bowed going into his Marshall JCM2000 was originally a Digitech TSR-24 on a super long plate setting called plutoverb.  Then he switched to using the Boss RV-1000 on it's Cathedral mode 100% wet and then after that he used the TC Electronic M350 on it's Cathedral Mode which is his current reverb unit for his bowed guitar.  He also did an artist patch for the Eventide Space pedal called "Cigaroos" which sounds terrible.  I am not sure he actually uses this pedal because I saw the band live not long ago and he was still using the TC M350 on Cathedral mode.

I think some key reverb units for Line 6 to look at for GUITARISTS of all styles are

1.  Fender Tube and spring reverbs
2.  Natural Large Cathedral reverb
3.  Natural room reverb
4.  EMT 140 Plate
5.  EMT 250  
6.  Lexicon 224 Concert Hall
7.  Yamaha SPX90 Nonlinear/Reverse
8.  Strymon CLOUD, BLOOM and NONLIN reverbs
9.  Alesis Midiverb II Bloom reverb 
10.  Alesis Quadraverb Plate II (with chorus modulation)
11.  Ensoniq DP4 

I have a Big Sky and it surpasses the sounds of my Lexicon reverbs (224, PCM70, PCM92) on guitars 9 times out of 10.  I would not pass that one over if you are looking at cutting edge reverb sound examples for Helix.  It's the cat's pajamas.  I personally don't care what hipsters or religious groups are using Strymon.  The Big Sky CLOUD and NONLIN and BLOOM are innovative and breathtaking algorithms that any reverb lovers would swoon over.

 

[Digital_Igloo]

Digital Igloo,

 

I enjoy your taste in music and reverb.  I know Caspian.  I will check out the others!  Thank you.

 

Sigur Ros uses the classic RMX-16 for Jonsi's vocal monitoring and sometimes used it in a final mix.  The 100% wet reverb used on his bowed going into his Marshall JCM2000 was originally a Digitech TSR-24 on a super long plate setting called plutoverb.  Then he switched to using the Boss RV-1000 on it's Cathedral mode 100% wet and then after that he used the TC Electronic M350 on it's Cathedral Mode which is his current reverb unit for his bowed guitar.  He also did an artist patch for the Eventide Space pedal called "Cigaroos" which sounds terrible.  I am not sure he actually uses this pedal because I saw the band live not long ago and he was still using the TC M350 on Cathedral mode.

 

I think some key reverb units for Line 6 to look at for GUITARISTS of all styles are

 

1.  Fender Tube and spring reverbs

2.  Natural Large Cathedral reverb

3.  Natural room reverb

4.  EMT 140 Plate

5.  EMT 250  

6.  Lexicon 224 Concert Hall

7.  Yamaha SPX90 Nonlinear/Reverse

8.  Strymon CLOUD, BLOOM and NONLIN reverbs

9.  Alesis Midiverb II Bloom reverb 

10.  Alesis Quadraverb Plate II (with chorus modulation)

11.  Ensoniq DP4 

 

I have a Big Sky and it surpasses the sounds of my Lexicon reverbs (224, PCM70, PCM92) on guitars 9 times out of 10.  I would not pass that one over if you are looking at cutting edge reverb sound examples for Helix.  It's the cat's pajamas.  I personally don't care what hipsters or religious groups are using Strymon.  The Big Sky CLOUD and NONLIN and BLOOM are innovative and breathtaking algorithms that any reverb lovers would swoon over.

Good stuff, bobguido. Cheers!

[cornerstonetom]

the million dollar question is...

 

If line6 pushes this with more frequent updates like fractal does for its customers. so far they have fallen flat with this.. imo

 

i find staying around 30% mix with the reverbs works best.

When you take a look at the update section of Helix, they've actually been averaging more than 2 updates per month. I have no experience with Fractal. However, you also contradict yourself later on saying it's not how many times updates are issued... Perhaps you should put your requests on IdeaScale. That might be more effective and far less annoying.

[jdosher]

it means (hyperbole alert) that if you're trying to get them to send their valuable time modeling the perfect snare verb or vocal verb or what have you, instead of things that a LOT of guitarists want mostly, sales will drop off, there will never be a Helix 2, and DI will have to get a job at McDonalds to feed his kids... I don't want that.

 

No... seriously... better verbs for guitar and such? Yes please (although I like what we have in there now). Big Sky type stuff? Yes, Please.

 

Lots of studio verbs for vocals and snares and such? No thanks. Give us more amp models, more pedal models, something like "scenes" in Axe-land... stuff like that.

Scenes! Yes, please. Personally, I'm interested in functional additions rather than more and more amp models, or a hundred different distortion pedals. I've said it before and I'll say it again: please give us scenes and global blocks.

[sammycraig]

I really do find the reverbs disappointing. Mainly because I sold my BigSky so that I could afford the Helix. I had to stack reverb upon reverb in the helix in order to reproduce just one of my BigSky settings. I may just be plain ignorant in suggesting this but what if Line 6 could create and external Helix reverb box that could be connected somehow perhaps a USB or simply running through effects loop. Not its own reverb pedal but more of a Helix extension that boosted the DSP capabilities to the point where we could run huge reverb sounds without adding an expensive reverb rack or pedal. Again maybe I'm just plain ignorant but if it worked it would be really cool. 

[billlorentzen]

Let me start by admitting that the Helix verbs are pretty weak (I'm an audio engineer and I've owned and used many top of the line dig. verbs), and I use them as sparingly as possible.

 

Solution? I would think developing original reverb algorithms for Helix would be a ton of work. Doesn't L6 make a digital mixer with (presumably) pretty decent reverbs, and aren't L6 now owned by Yamaha (who have made some OK verbs since the '90s), and doesn't Yamaha own Steinberg, who also have some quite nice verbs? At the risk of sounding glib about the programming and the corporate politics, wouldn't it be easier and way more cost effective to borrow some of these?

 

Since a good verb is very processor intensive, maybe offer both the HD verbs and the more detailed ones, so we can choose to use the good stuff when we really need it.

[PeterHamm]

...and aren't L6 now owned by Yamaha (who have made some OK verbs since the '90s)...

 

Best solution. Full stop. (imho)

 

Put the current generation SPX verbs (and maybe some of the other stuff - Symphonic Chorus anyone?)  into this box somehow... Is it on ideascale?

[zooey]

Completely different DSP chips, nothing like a direct port. Although they clearly do have some understanding of what's involved in decent verb design.

[regalpierot]

First and foremost, I read a lot of forums about a lot of kit. Mainly synth and sampler stuff but invariably someone associated with a certain manufacturer (PM or Lead technician etc) will post a response to some critique. Intentionally or not, they either come across as overly defensive and condescending or inversely overly acquiescing and almost unnecessarily apologetic. I'm new to this forum so am not sure if Digital_Igloo works for Line 6 but his post of April 29th 9:12am is one of the best articulated and perfectly crafted answers I've seen on such subjects. Almost every product I own the community can find a weakness or criticism (all good to have and voice) but there's sometimes an assumption that owners of competitors products are to be envied because they don't face similar frustrations. I have yet, in 25 years of owning hoards of products, to find one that didn't have some blemishes that made it through QA or some things it didn't do as well as the competition. There is no silver bullet, there is no perfect product or manufacturer software or hardware wise (at least one that is financially viable), but there is a Sergent Peppers so it's what you do with the tools you have.

 

Reverb-wise, I actually think the Helix does more than well with the basic reverb types you'd use in standard tones (basic room, plate etc) just to fill out a sound, by that I mean I have never loaded a block in and felt it's the weak link. Luckily though the advantage of a software based solution it I guess we are just a release of a new algorithm away from extending out beyond that so no doubt additional options will happen in time.

I do tend to do a lot of ambient stuff but never went into the helix thinking it would replace my Big Sky or H9 but I just throw those in a send\return loop so that's been thought out. But that kind of processing comes at a cost, there's a reason the Strymon is $479 and the H9 $699 (well, my Max was anyway) so 1\3 and 1\2 Helix respectively.