Anything like a doubler on the Helix?

[Lone_Poor_Boy]

Like a Keeley 30ms or TC Electronics Mimiq?  I've looked but have not seen it, though there may be some modeled effect that does what I'm looking for.

[phil_m]

Yep... Under the Modulation section - called Double Take.

[themetallikid]

I believe there is an effect called the Double Take, with some neat parameters.  I dont use it as it sounds phasey or weird when in mono, Stereo it sounds good, but the Mimiq is notably better at what it does from the reviews i've read.

[Lone_Poor_Boy]

Ah, thanks both.  Totally missed that when going through a pdf list as I was looking at the 'Real World' list on the right for Keely or Mimiq but there it is as a Line 6 original.  I'll give it a try.  I'm hoping it doesn't have that chorusey sound I've heard with the Keeley.  Maybe that's the 'phasey' sound you describe.  I'll be sure to try it in stereo.

[DarthHollis]

Another option is to use the Simple Pitch shift.  Only change the pitch by 5-15 cents. I like 6.9 cents. Then change the delay to 20-30 ms.  Mix to 100% if you put it to one side and want a stereo image.  In my opinion, this sounds better than Double Take but still not quite as good as the Mimiq.

[HonestOpinion]

One of the parts of the Mimiq's secret sauce for getting things to sound more like a real double track, is I believe a small pitch shift with a randomizing function that constantly modifies how many cents the pitch changes by. I'm wondering if that is essentially what the 'Slop' setting does on the Helix's "Double Take". If so I wouldn't mind seeing the 'Slop' parameter make its way into the harmonizer/pitch shifters as well. Tends to give them a more natural organic sound.

[brue58ski]

15 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

One of the parts of the Mimiq's secret sauce for getting things to sound more like a real double track, is I believe a small pitch shift with a randomizing function that constantly modifies how many cents the pitch changes by. I'm wondering if that is essentially what the 'Slop' setting does on the Helix's "Double Take". If so I wouldn't mind seeing the 'Slop' parameter make its way into the harmonizer/pitch shifters as well. Tends to give them a more natural organic sound.

 

I think Slop has to do with time randomization. Like if one player was playing more sloppy, his timing would be off more. And I think that parameter is now called tightness.

[datacommando]

1 hour ago, brue58ski said:

And I think that parameter is now called tightness.

 

Well, coincidentally, I just happen to have been messing around with the "Double Take" block and that parameter is still named "Slop" in v.2.92.0.
Maybe it will be changed in a future update, although it isn't the sort of block that I would use a lot, but I'm happy to know that it's there for a little odd modulation. ;-)

[brue58ski]

2 minutes ago, datacommando said:

 

Well, coincidentally, I just happen to have been messing around with the "Double Take" block and that parameter is still named "Slop" in v.2.92.0.
Maybe it will be changed in a future update, although it isn't the sort of block that I would use a lot, but I'm happy to know that it's there for a little odd modulation. ;-)

 

Sorry. I was refering to the actual pedal (Mimiq) not the Helix's Double take. I see the Mimiq wasn't being directly discussed. I still think it has to do with randomly changing a delay in mseconds although it may have some modulation thrown in has well. I've used it once and was actually impressed by it (The Helix's). Much better than what the Vetta amp had (I can't remember the name.)

[HonestOpinion]

4 hours ago, brue58ski said:

 

I think Slop has to do with time randomization. Like if one player was playing more sloppy, his timing would be off more. And I think that parameter is now called tightness.

 

Whether its time delay or pitch modulation or both, throw in a little randomized variation on stacked parts for vocals or guitars and things start sounding more like actual humans singing or playing together.

[HonestOpinion]

3 hours ago, brue58ski said:

 

Sorry. I was refering to the actual pedal (Mimiq) not the Helix's Double take. I see the Mimiq wasn't being directly discussed. I still think it has to do with randomly changing a delay in mseconds although it may have some modulation thrown in has well. I've used it once and was actually impressed by it (The Helix's). Much better than what the Vetta amp had (I can't remember the name.)

 

The Mimiq pedal appears to vary both the pitch and delay(at least according to the review in the link below). I thought about mentioning varying delay as well as pitch in my original post but thought I would keep things simple. I should have know better around here :-) 

 

Haven't played with the Helix's Double Take 'Slop' setting enough to know whether it handles both delay and pitch? A randomizing algorithm, be it on delay and/or pitch can really help when stacking parts, vocals or guitar.  When two duplicated parts get too tight they can sound more artificial and I think it's worthy of note that Line 6 included a 'Slop' feature although I have no idea how they implemented it or if it includes randomizing.   Since the 'Slop' feature is already on one Helix effect, maybe it can migrate over to a couple of others. If not there's my own internal 'Slop' setting and its always available :-)

 

http://performermag.com/best-instruments/best-guitar-picks-accessories/tc-electronic-mimiq-doubler-review/

 

[karlic]

The video in the link you posted demonstrates the Mimiq with no chords. I wonder if they specifically chose octaves because the slight phasing is less noticeable.

 

I have a Mimiq in the loop of the Helix rack and keep experimenting for future use live, but am still unsure. One thing's for certain, you can only use it in stereo.

[phil_m]

I think people normally think of heavier, layered rhythm guitars when they think of these doubler effects, but I've had surprisingly good luck with it on cleaner parts. All the rhythm parts on this song, for example, were made using the Double Take. I like how it still sounds like a single guitar part, it kind of pushes it out to the far left and right sides.

 

 

[Lone_Poor_Boy]

I think this is the best 'Mimiq' review I have found.  I ended up getting one and am using it with two of my amps this weekend playing out, as I am not ready to 'go live' with my Helix yet.  I've used a two-amp setup for some time and this really added more 'fullness'.  I'm using it with Dry and Effect maxed and Tightness set to 12 o'clock (I don't play really tight/metal so I can get away with more 'openness').

 

The guy in this review seems to really know his stuff and analyzed the files to see what they are doing.  It is definitely randomizing timing, pitch and possibly even attack/volume some.  He speaks to the difference in using a delay for this timing effect vs. a Mimiq, and that the ear gets attuned to the delay because it is consistent.  Makes sense.  Hmm, what about using the 'Double Take' in Helix and trying the 'Leslie' and experimenting with settings?  Could that add some 'randomness'?

 

 

[OmniFace]

I own a Mimiq and Helix.  The Mimiq is fantastic, but the Double Take in Helix seems to be just about as good in my opinion.  Definitely not worth using WITH the Helix rather than Double Take unless you need to free up DSP and still have a block to run the effects loop with.  I use the Mimiq with my HD500x though.

 

Both sound phasey in mono simply due to what they do.  Both can sound like they "jump around" a little in mono.  They both automatically change up the delay time which can shift the comb filtering audibly.  I haven't used the Mimiq in a while, but I feel like it was a bit better at detecting transients to switch delay settings with, so it sounds a bit more natural.  That said, teh difference is pretty minimal. 

 

If you use a stereo mix with in ears/headphones, your going to be very happy with either. I've boxed up the Mimiq and haven't looked back in this case.

 

However, if you use mono monitoring, or have a stereo rig where the speakers are close to each other (effectively making it mono), I think Mimiq probably wins by a hair. 

 

If you already own one, cool.  Do something fun with it.  If not, I wouldn't bother purchasing it honestly.

[Elephantstomp]

I also have had the Mimiq and can confirm OmniFaces opinion.

No need to buy a Mimiq when you can use the Double Take.

 

To those who have more experience with the Double Take:

I am unsure which Settings I have to choose to get a simple "double take".

Whats Sensitivity? I only hear that the wet signal flips around more in the stereo panorama.

Should i choose MONO as source, or LEFT? (Mono sound right for me)

My Guitar is in the L/MONO input.

What are your dry and wet level settings?

Do i imagine that the wet signal is lower by equal settings?

 

Please have a look at my double take settings.

This is what sound best to me with headphones.

I haven´t testet it in rehearsal with pa so far.

 

Thank you!

 

Complement:

I ´ve found theese useful explanations for the double take parameters.

My questions are answered.

 

Doubles
The main "Doubles" knob controls the number of double tracks into the mix from one to four generated voices, and in the stereo versions, the dry signal is assigned to a specified pan location. (Dry signal is underlined)
1 = Left and Right
2 = Left, Center, Right
3 = Left, Left, Right, Right
4 = Left, Left, Center, Right, Right
Note: as each extra voice is added, there is a post-effect level compensation such that the overall dB of the remains about uniform. You can make up this change with the two output knobs if you want the same level hitting whatever you send the doubled tracks in to. Also since these are hard pans, you an also use the "stereo width" block to control how wide this effect is in the stereo field.

Slop
The Slop knob controls the amount of the slight variations in timing and pitch you would hear from each of the doubled voices. The variations are what we like to call "Defined Randomness" as this amount and timing is directly coupled with the dynamics of the original part. This knob controls the heart of this effect, as it will define the voices from tight and refined at low settings and all the way to(too?) wild and dynamic at max. With this knob you can set such that a softer touch there isn't much change to the original performance, but the harder you dig in, the more the doubled voices' strings stretch, slap around, and become widely de-correlated.

Sensitivity
This knob controls the sensitivity of the slop feature. The lower this parameter is set there will be less dynamic behavior from the voices. This can be viewed more or less like a threshold or input gain of a compressor, but specifically for the slop's detection algorithm.

Source (Stereo only)
The Double take can have a true stereo path. This parameter determines how the input signal is processed by the effect.
Mono: Input will be summed to mono then processed by the Double Take
True Stereo: Each side will be sent as a true stereo path, and each extra voice will be sent to the side of the source pan.
Left Only: Only the left input will be sent into the Double Take
Right Only: Only the right input will be sent into the Double Take

Dry and Wet Levels
Instead of a This controls the level of the original dry signal as it passes through the effect. Note the Dry Level Location above.
Note: In "True Stereo" mode, the dry signal for the right will only be used for the doubles and will not pass through the effect. In "Right Only" mode, the Right channel will be sent to the left or center according to the Doubles parameter.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Elephantstomp
complement