DunedinDragon

Congratulations. I wouldn't have guessed the issues holding you back could have been fixed so easily, but I suppose it's different for me as I deal with a lot of various tones from different genres so I can usually find a way to get what I want. I will say I'm a huge fan of OwnHammer IRs as well, but it never occurred to me that might be the fix for you. It makes sense now in that my view of OwnHammer IRs is they tend to have more cab coloration than the other IRs I use, so they're pretty useful when I'm looking for that type of thing in my sound. They make up about 1/3 of my library of IRs with Celestion and Redwirez taking up the rest. So now there's no more excuses...time to get to work building patches...

Well, I honestly can't say from you're description you're doing anything terribly different in terms of your setup, but you're definitely getting a different impression of your tone than what I and most others here get with the same combinations. It could simply be that you have a sensitivity toward hearing some frequencies that are bothersome to you. I can understand that somewhat because I have the same problem in some instances when dialing in patches using my Strat. I often have to tweek those patches more than others to get rid of that "plucky" sound. Part of what I've come to understand is that I have to adjust what I'm listening for on FRFR speakers when I'm dialing them in due to the increased clarity and articulation of the FRFR speaker. What seems a bit harsh or thin to me at home ends up being just about right when mixed with the rest of the band. Even some of that "plucky" sound on the Strat that bothers me ends up being necessary once I get with the rest of the instruments. If I dial it out at home I end up dialing it back in once I'm at rehearsal. In fact that's exactly what happened to me last night. I spent several hours tweaking it out and finally ended up turning down the bridge tone knob to get it where I felt comfortable with it. As soon as I started rehearsing with the band it sounded dull. Low and behold I turned my tone knob back up and it sat perfectly in the mix. A couple of things have helped me in this regard. Ear fatigue gets to be a big factor when dialing in patches, and I dial in patches A LOT. I have a patch per song, so I've gotten pretty proficient at dialing in different amps with different guitars (Les Paul, Strat, Tele, and Gretsch hollow body). I try to take a good first swing that's reasonably close to what I want then come back to it later after some time away from it and dial it in with fresh ears and I can usually get it pretty well where I want it after a couple of times. Often during one of those breaks it will occur to me to try something different that turns out to be the key to getting what I want. What never works is to just bang against it over and over. I end up getting frustrated and not getting anywhere because my ears are worn out. A couple of things I'll mention here. I agree with you on the 3Sigma IRs in that all variations seem way too harsh to me, but I can't agree that the Redwirez seem distant. To me they tend to be a little closer to the studio production sound I'm looking for when I dial in many of my patches. Every situation is different but there is a document that's provided on the RedWirez site called "Dialing In Your Tone with Redwirez IRs" which has been very useful as it gives a list of best placements for each of the mics for optimal balance.and has been pretty spot-on. I've also had some pretty good results combining a bit darker IR with a more present IR in a split arrangement in dialing out what appears to me to be harshness. But again, I have to be somewhat careful because a certain amount of harshness when dialing it in by myself turns into presence and articulation when combined with the band. As far as IRs, I have to say my most used IRs are the Celestions. What makes them a bit different is there's less cabinet coloration and more pure speaker. For me that makes it a lot easier to find the right variation for what I want much faster than with any of the others most of the time. I guess that's all I can add. I think you're on the right track, just going through some natural adjustment in adapting and adjusting your ears to a FRFR setup. It is different than just a traditional amp and cabinet but I'm confident you'll find your space. I had a bit less of an adjustment because I started doing this type of setup with my HD500X so I had already figured out some of the tricks. The Helix to me was a pleasant surprise because it gave me greater flexibility to get what I wanted. Since this is your first encounter with it, it may take a bit more initial time, but once you get it figured out you'll know the formula that tends to work for you and it becomes a MUCH easier and faster process.

I don't know about anyone else, but I suspect we're mostly the same or pretty close. My basic signal chain for an IR would consist of guitar input -> amp -> IR -> output to monitor No real need for a pre-amp block prior to an amp block, and certainly no reason for a native Helix cab to feed into an IR. Generally its either Helix cab OR an IR. Again, it would be nice to know which amp model you're using as that would give a little more insight about why you seem to be getting such harshness. Also what mic and mic positions you've been using would help as well.

What amp model are you using? Hard to give you feedback without knowing that....

Apparenty not as "absolutely" as you thought.... 2. Use your CURRENT EXISTING Helix application to back up all of your presets and IRs (if you want to keep them). For example, if you’re running Helix FW 1.12, your current Helix application version should be 1.12. 8. Using the NEW Helix editor application (2.21), restore the user presets you backed up in step 2.

This is probably why they advise surgeons to not drink Guinness while performing operations.... ;)

Yeah...I second that as well. That's why I don't have any of them...

Here's the deal from my experience. Your audience is used to hearing professionally recorded studio sounds because that's what they listen to 99% of the time. They don't particularly notice if that's missing when they go to a club or event with a live band. But they DO notice when it's there, because it's clearly different from what they normally hear in clubs and is what they're used to listening to most of the time...so it stands out. They may not be able to express what the difference is, but they notice the difference. To me, it's worth the extra effort to master the process and give it to them because that differentiates our band's live sound from most others.

No speaker is TRULY flat response, but most modern designs come close enough that for all practical purposes they'll respond in a similar manner. The only difference comes into play when they're positioned as floor monitors in which case the low end needs to be rolled off a bit due to bass coupling. But most speakers have a DSP corrective setting for that. I doubt you'd much care for a truly FLAT response as it wouldn't sound natural at all. That's probably why you should take some "expert" opinions on the internet with a grain of salt. Spending time on "corrective EQ" on a speaker just takes away from developing the listening skills necessary to dial in the tone you want. It's just extra work with no particular real-world benefit.

It may simply be that approaching a Helix is not the same approaching a live traditional amp. Getting the most out of a Helix is more like approaching a studio recording sound than it is a typical amp on stage. What you're hearing from your amp setup is very definitely NOT the sound that's being recorded or projected out to the audience through the FOH in a traditional setup because, aside from chair creaks and noise, you tone will be influenced considerably by the mic used and how it's positioned on the cabinet. Some people can adapt to that situation, some can't. In a way it's like re-learning how to get a tone that presents itself well within a band mix, not just on stage...and that may not be what you want to do.

I think most of us here use Helix in a live band. Personally there are 7 people in my band and I have no problem with getting my patches to mix well. I will say it takes a bit of time to learn the ins and outs of dealing with FRFR setups, but once you understand the essentials it's pretty easy to set them up. Here's a couple of key things to consider when setting up patches. Some of the issues may be related to how you have your L2T setup when dialing in your patches or using it on stage. Make sure you have adequate distance between yourself and the speaker. You have to remember this speaker is designed for projecting over long distances, so you want to be far enough away to allow the low frequency driver and high frequency driver ample space to blend together. That's why no one sets a PA speaker right next to the ear of people in the audience, and I have my speaker positioned as a floor monitor behind me at least 4 feet when performing or at practice. Normally I stand about 5 feet away from my Yamaha DXR12 when at home adjusting patches facing the speaker to get a better feel for how it will sound coming out of the front of house and not be overly influenced by the high frequency driver. Also make sure you have the correct speaker mode selected. Since I don't use an L2T hopefully someone else that's been using them can give some advice on the proper mode and some positioning advice. Given you have speaker positioning and the correct mode you may be better off first adjusting the mic and mic position on your IR before applying any hi-cuts. I don't use 3Sigma IRs so I don't know what mics they have, but you might try using a ribbon mic to get a more full frequency spectrum representation. Generally the further you position the mic away from the cap and out toward the cone or cone edge, the less "ice picky" sound you'll have. In my case, depending on the amp and amp settings in the patch I sometimes have no hi-cuts applied, and usually it's fairly moderate between 5.5khz - 7khz. It's also not unusual that the sound you hear when playing with the full band is different than when playing alone and setting up a patch. A lot of that high end gets attenuated naturally by the other instruments in a live environment, and over-compensating with high cuts will simply mean you're losing articulation and definition. Some of this may be related to what you're listening "for". I find I get a MUCH better tone when I approach it looking for the sound I would want in a studio setting or on a record rather than approaching it as if I were targeting the sound of an amp on stage, and those are two very different things. In a studio you're listening for articulation and clarity, even in high gain tones. That's what makes it stand out in a mix, whether that be in a recording or live. That's not something you worry too much about with a traditional amp, mainly because with a traditional amp what you hear on stage is not what you hear in a recording control room or in the FOH in a live setting, which is based more on the sound of the mic and it's position on the speaker cabinet. That last statement is really the key for mastering dialing in tones with the Helix in an FRFR setup. What you're trying to accomplish in this case is a professional production sound, not just a stage sound of standing in front of an amp. One of the biggest issues I see when making this transition is people using too much distortion. You'd probably be surprised at how much less distortion is used even in high-gain type music when in a studio. It makes it MUCH harder to get the guitar to stand out in a mix.

My take on this, or any other tone comparison of units in the universe, is that whether the tone is noticeably better is FAR more dependent on the knowledge and skill of the person using the unit than it is the technology. A person that's very skilled and knowledgeable on the HD500X will get better tones out of it than an unskilled and unknowledgeable person using a Helix. That's why it's probably better to spend one's time learning how to best build signal chains than watching comparison videos.....

It would operate the same way and simply feed the designated amount of signal to each side of the split I assume. I'm not sure a split block is even aware of what happens downstream.

Just bear in mind that downloaded tones may need to be adapted fo your guitar and your particular setup. They're a good place to start, but don't be handicapped by not exporing them to see how to better set things up for your particular equipment. It's a great way to begin to learn how to create your own patches.

Probably because the aux is designed for active pickup guitars and bass, so he's taking in the boosted output signal as if it's a new guitar signal and will be processed through the entire signal chain.

Quite frankly I doubt seriously that this has anything to do with your Helix. This is purely a ground loop problem and possibly exacerbated by going direct in to the main amp circuit. I'm not sure what the "flat" setting does, but if it's not bypassing the pre-amp it's likely any ground loop will be accentuated. Ground loops can be due to two different electrical units plugged into different circuits that have different grounds, or in some cases simply bad grounding on a given circuit so that it's not completely isolated from interference from any number of things. Surge protectors really don't do anything in terms of isolating these ground loops. One thing you can try is to use a HumX ground loop eliminator. I have a bunch of these that I keep with me for live performances where you can't expect good clean power. I've included a link to one. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HumX

It's a great start but it's missing some pretty critical people and rigs. They only have Eric Clapton up until Cream, but he's diverged from that quite a bit over the years. No BB King. No Jimmy Page, No Joe Walsh, No Tom Petty. No Sting or Andy Summers from the Police.I mean these guys are guitar icons that established some pretty influential sounds. Very disappointing if you're over 40 years old.

I know for me it's taken the better part of a year, but I am settling into a routine of knowing components are necessary to get the sounds I want. And that's after coming from using other modelers for the last several years. It's not nearly as much work to find the right setups because I can more or less predict the effect or certain things in the signal chain. I would agree it's still a bit of work because you setup the patch, leave it for a few hours, come back with fresh ears, and tweak it a bit more. And that happens several times. But that may just be my OCD coming through. I'd still submit that after a while you get a feel for how to approach any given sound. I'm still surprised when something isn't working the way I want it to, but I don't dwell on it for very long before changing to a different amp, cab or mic arrangement. I'm not sure it's any more elbow grease than what we used to have to do in traditional old-school studios when trying to capture a specific sound. Just less physical labor... ;)

I doubt you'll get that bright, scratchy sound of the tele, it's just very unique. Maybe if you have .9's on your strat you might come close. I have both a strat and a tele and I use them each for different sounds. But then I have .10's on my Strat. With a Strat I'd still go with either the Bassman or the HiWatt with a bit of drive added, definitely not a fuzz. I'd probably still use either and SM57 or MD421 mic on an OwnHammer 2 x 12 closed back Celestion Blue cab but probably just the thin or balanced IR version for the strat.

Maybe the better way to say it is that it accentuates frequencies that aren't normally accentuated, and these can sometimes be pretty dramatic. Lets face it, most people that have been using traditional amps and cabinets base their impressions of the sound based on where they're standing relative to the speaker cabinet. That sound can change pretty dramatically if you stand off axis including left, right, or above the speaker if it's not tilted up toward your head. Chances are these people would be quite surprised at the difference in tone of that same amp and cabinet once it's mic'd and sent through a flat EQ channel on the board. But that, in effect, is exactly what you're listening to when going through a helix amp, cabinet and mic configuration. Chances are if they only heard their rig through a PA, they'd likely be making the same kind of adjustments as you normally do on the Helix.

I think a lot of what you're asking about is really related to how well you understand the fundamentals of building complex signal chains. Many things like the attributes of a given amp, the attributes of different cabinets and of different microphones and their placement on those cabinets, and even the possibility of how to blend different cabinets and mic configurations together into a single signal chain. And that's really all before you start getting into effects and how they might be best positioned within that signal chain. The good news is you can start with simple setups that perform very convincingly and build your skills as you go. But the Helix really provides almost limitless configuration possibilities, and it's real limitations come down to the knowledge and skill of the user and their understanding of how to best use all of these facilities to achieve the precise sound they want.

Hopefully you play a Tele because it's going to be a stretch getting that sound without it. There's a couple of ways I might approach this with my Tele. Probably I'd start with the Bassman and if that wasn't right I'd go to the HiWatt. I might actually try a Vox cabinet or any 2 x 12 that's a celestion blue. I think I'd be using a Celstion IR 2 x 12 closed back version either the dark or balanced mix. Probably an SM57 or Sennheiser mic, but definitely some form of standard guitar dynamic mic. I don't think he's using anything more than just the drive on the amp...no fuzz. It's not a particularly heavy amount of drive, but just enough to be consistent at full volume on the guitar backed off slightly on the bridge tone knob. As someone else mentioned there's a lot of compression on this so I'd start with the Red Squeeze as it's the easiest to get that type of compression. But you're going to be quite frustrated getting that type of sound without a Tele similar to his which looks to me like it's using the noiseless pickups. I'm actually thinking he's using one of the new Tele Elites which are using 4th generation noiseless pickups.

You might want to first try a different cabinet and/or mic/mic distance first. Many times that's all that's needed. I've found that often deals with it more naturally than immediately jumping to EQ. Also you might want to engage the ext sub switch on the K10, especially if you have it set on the floor in the floor monitor position. This will engage the low cut filter at 100 hz which will help with alleviating some of the bass coupling that occurs when set on the floor.

I use splits and merges quite a bit. Primarily with IRs and certain types of effects at the end of the signal chain. Not so much with stereo spread in mind because I don't use it as there's just no dependable way to implement it FOH given room acoustics and spread of the audience. I hadn't really thought about it for creating a thicker sound for song dynamics, but it may be something to keep in mind.

I would assume it probably has to do with the voicings on the DT50. Those voicings will have an effect on coloration of the Helix signal whereas a direct connection to the K10s will be pure and have no coloration of the signal.