DunedinDragon

Since you're a brand new father I'll give you the real scoop about what that means as far as being a musician and a father. What the kid wants, the kid gets....what you want gets to wait, because the kid comes first. The days when you could indulge yourself are pretty much over for a while. Eventually they'll return as the kid gets older. But that's just as well because you're not going to have much time for your interest in music for the next 16 or so years. So ultimately it doesn't really matter if you choose this as your last big blowout thing for yourself and get the Helix, or you just take the moderate approach with the HD. You're really not going to have the time and opportunity to really exploit either of them to their full potential since you'll be busy with soccer teams, music lessons, parent teacher conferences, sleepovers, etc., etc., etc.... Given that situation you're not going to be losing as much with the HD as you will the Helix. It's likely they'll go unused more than they'll be used for the next few years so you might as well save a bit on what your not going to be using.... :lol:

I'm beginning to think it may be something with the speaker. To be honest I don't know of anyone using the EV's so there may be an issue there, particularly given that they provide an input sensitivity control which is very odd as far as FRFR speakers are concerned. We know a lot of folks are using Alto speakers and some are using the Yamaha DXR or DSR line, but this is the first encounter I've had with the EV's. In looking over the EV video tutuorial the only thing that jumps out at me as different than most FRFR speakers is first, the input sensitivity which shouldn't be a problem as long as it's set to just below the clipping stage as you would do in any gain staging exercise. The other thing is the built-in limiter which can be adjusted to kick in at some certain level below max to make sure the volume doesn't increase to the point that it causes damage. If this was me here's how I'd approach the system. First, I'd probably set my POD master volume at around 50%. Plug it into the speaker using 1/4" line from the POD. Play your guitar in a normal fashion including leads that may bump up the volume a bit and watch the input meter. Adjust the level on the input meter until it's comfortably just a little bit below where it clips and make sure you check all of your patches to ensure your sensitivity is as high as it can go without clipping. DO NOT CHANGE THE MASTER VOLUME ON THE POD DURING ANY OF THIS AS THAT WOULD AFFECT THE LINE LEVEL. Basically maximize the line level for a 12 o'clock position on the POD. Next I would look at the limiter setting in the DSP options and maybe set that at around -10dB or possibly less like even -6dB. After all of that I would then play normally through the speaker. If it works as I'm thinking it should about 12 o'clock on the speakers volume control should be pretty darn loud and it will go up from there. Here's what I'm thinking is happening. Somewhere in the process between gain staging the input signal coming from the POD at full master volume, and the setting on the limiter you're causing the limiter to kick in at a level way below where it should kick in, and it's causing you to not be able to actually get all of the output volume out of the speaker because no matter how much you turn up the volume, it's going to engage the limiter to stop it from overloading even though it's not really that loud. This all starts with getting a good, full gain staged input signal. I recommended the 12 o'clock position on the pod, but you can choose any level you want although I wouldn't recommend going much higher than that. What ever level you set you POD Master Volume, once you've gain staged that signal to be just below clipping, that's the hard maximum you don't want to exceed on your master volume because it will either clip, or it will cut in the limiter. At a decent gain staged signal level coming in at half volume from the POD you should easily be able to crank up the volume on the speaker and as long as the limiter isn't set too low you should have plenty of headroom before it engages. I suspect the 1 or 2 o'clock position on the speaker's volume is going to be pretty darn loud if this is what the problem is. Otherwise make sure you set the MODE on the DSP to LIVE to make sure you have a good flat EQ for live music. I hope that helps...

Thanks for the compliment IndianRock. As far as the 95dB limit. Yes, there is an aggregate boost the more each instrument is boosted, however theoretically, in a true silent stage approach, the mix is irrespective of the FOH db limit which is controlled by the main fader. If you guys can get the mix in the ballpark the whole concept of silent stage is the mange the overall volume simply from the master fader. However, that then raises the nasty spectre of the drums, which isn't subject to the master fader. For the record, I would absolutely agree with you that until they come up with a plan to manage drum volume (other than a human being) whether it be a sound booth or electronic drums, you really haven't accomplished the main goal of the silent stage and it was all a big waste of time. Sorry to be harsh, but I know this wasn't your decision. But you know as well as I do that it's the truth.

After listening to your recording I can say your soundman is making the exact same mistake that I hear in about 90% of the conventional churches I visit. Yes, the guitar is buried. But what happens is the sound personnel are conditioned by tradition to have the piano/keyboard carry the bulk of the load as far as the harmonic instruments. Basically, if you look at my guidelines earlier for gain staging the instruments, the guitar should be at roughly the same level as the keyboard. The problem sits clearly in the hands of the people running the sound. After almost 40 years mixing sound both live and in the studio here's my critique of what your recording reveals: Voices are pretty much where they need to be, and surprisingly so are the drums. However there is WAY too much kick drum for the overall volume level of the performance and it's interfering with the bass. Keyboards are just about right although they could come back slightly and the guitar needs to come up to match it at the same level. The bass (although I can't make it out that well) has no articulation and is being drowned out by the kick drum. I don't know if they've got the kick drum mic'd or not, but if so it needs to come down and get a little tighter by rolling off some very low frequencies and giving a slight increase around 100hz and 3.5 khz if they have a parametric EQ. If not, they need might want to consider using the high pass on the kick drum because the natural resonance of the room is making it very muddy and boomy. Now, here's the trick if you bring up the guitar level to match the keyboard. For this to work the keyboard and guitar have to work very closely together. The guitar can't just be strumming a rhythm, it has to be played more in line with the piano using more fill patterns and arpeggio style strumming and fills so that it fits together with the piano to match the mood of this style of song. One of the other problems churches have with guitarists who have primarily come from more rock backgrounds is there is a LOT of various guitar techniques used in most modern worship songs today that come more from jazz and some folk styles. It's more natural for keyboard players who typically come from a broader background to adapt their style. What you don't want to happen is for the guitar to come up to match the volume of the keyboard and not blend in, or stick out because it's not fitting in with the style of the music. Another aspect of this is the keyboard and the guitar need to feel who is carrying the song at any one time and it may switch back and forth. In a live situation you can't expect the sound person to manage this, so this is something you and the keyboard player will have to work on to develop a feel for in each song. Sometimes you'll hold back, sometimes he/she will hold back while you provide most of the underlying harmonic instrument content. Sorry if I'm overstepping my bounds here, but I wanted to share some of the things we've learned as a christian band over the last 10 years to see if that helps your frustrations. Here's a live recording direct out of our mixing board of one of the songs we do which is an adaptation of Third Day's "Thief". Although we don't have a keyboard in our band I still think it demonstrates several things here. First the mix level of the instruments and voices so everyone is heard and contributes. Secondly the interaction between the two guitars and some of the guitar technique aspects that tend to be useful in addressing worship music. Unfortunately I can't paste the link...some anomoly with the way this forum software works, but I've typed out the link below so you can copy and paste it into another browser window: http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=12764911&q=hi Hmmm...seems it recognized my typing as a link..at least on my browser, so you may be able to just click it.

I can only compare it with my setup which is on a Yamaha DXR12 with the following specs: 700 Watts (600 Watts RMS LF Driver, 100 Watts RMS HF Driver) Max SPL 132db In my case there is no gain or input sensitivity adjustment just a Level for each input port. I plug into the 1/4" Line input port which is leveled from the factory at -10 dBu My level adjustment on the speaker is set to unity (0 dB or mid point) I use the POD 1/4" R(mono) output with the switch set to line output. POD Master volume is typically set around the 11 o'clock position when at home and roughly just below 12 o'clock at practice or live and neither myself nor anyone else in the band has any problem hearing me. Granted we use electronic drums which are pumped through an ART Tube MP into a Mackie Thump 12, but I have used this same setup with a live drummer using an acoustic kit and was still roughly at the same setting. Generally speaking, with my POD Master volume set at 12 o'clock I don't think I'd want to go much higher because it's LOUD. There may be some differences in the levels our band plays at because we play at a level assuming everything will be mic'd and going through the PA. But I couldn't imagine how painful it would be if both my speaker and my POD master volume were maxed out. I think that would almost be unbearably loud. Granted there are some differences in our speakers, but not that much, so I have to wonder about either the levels you set on your patches, or your input sensitivity setting on the speaker. Assuming you're not using pre-amp amp models on the POD, how are you determining the proper input level setting on your EV? I'm honestly mystified how maxing out your POD Master volume and your speaker volume isn't making your ears bleed. Granted there's a bit of difference in SPL between the speakers, but even 120 SPL is roughly the measurement where you reach the threshold of discomfort. It's louder than the measurement of a chainsaw at 1 meters distance and would fall under the Federal mandates for wearing ear protection. Something appears to be out of whack here....

+1000 Cruisinon: Untested anything in front of customers is never a good thing. You wouldn't take your band in front of an audience without rehearsal, why take a whole guitar rig you haven't rehearsed? They didn't come there to watch you fiddle with your setup, so take whatever time it takes to get it right, work it in with the band at rehearsal, and when it's ready...take it out there. Like cruisinon I had my POD rig for about a month before I was comfortable taking it onstage, and even then there were tweaks I needed to do afterwards. But it would have been a disaster if I had taken it out there the first weekend after I got it. There will be other times and you don't need to do it right now...

I actually use the ART TubeMP, but I use it on the output of an electronic drum kit before it feeds into a Mackie Thump 12 speaker used as the stage monitor for the drums. It's a pretty typical preamp in that you have to manage the level of the signal coming into it and carefully manage it's output to get the "warming" results. It's no problem on the electronic drums because the preamp on the drum unit is pretty rudimentary so there's not as much risk overdriving the speaker's input and hitting the compressor/limiter. I'm not sure the same would be true for the POD unless you were really controlling the output level from the master volume control. Even then it might be a problem because the preamp in the POD is pretty robust.

Napynap, I don't get the sense that Indianrock's problems have much to do with the material or message. Unlike a band who has complete authority over their presentation, chuches simply don't work that way. The real decision makers aren't part of the band. The band is subject to their decisions whether good or bad and, as is often the case, if those decision makers have no understanding of how to effectively present the music, the presentation is often flawed. There's only so much the band members can do to overcome bad decisions. This would be more akin to working in a show band at a Las Vegas show or a cruise ship in which the producer or director makes decisions about the presentation of the music within the show that are inherently flawed.

I have to say I preferred the tube drive version over the VT999. To my ear it sounded just a bit tighter and better defined, closer to what I'd want in a studio recording so that it doesn't get lost in the mix of other instruments. But that's a matter of preference I think. I tend to lean toward a refined studio sound and you may be seeking a more traditional live sound. For reference I was listening on a pair of Yamaha HS8 studio monitors.

If it helps at all here are the guidelines I give my sound guy as targets for gain staging the raw signals from the stage which they find very useful. These are roughly where the instruments need to sit in the mix. If they gain stage the channels to these levels on his meters, they can pretty much set the faders all at unity and everthing will be pretty close to where it needs to sit in the mix. Then just minor tweaks on the faders as necessary. Hopefully your guy knows the proper procedure for how to gain stage signals on the board during sound checks. Nominal Value Peak Value Vocals +2db +4db (with compression) Drums +2db +4db (electronic drums) Lead Guitar -2db 0db Rhythm Guitar -4db -2db Acoustic Guitar -4db -2db (with compression) Harmonica -3db -1db Bass -3db -1db Keyboards -2db 0db

To expound just a bit on what cruisinon2 said, it all makes much more sense if you think of an FRFR setup as if it's a direct-in studio recording setup than a live performance setup. Sudio playback speakers are just like the modern crop of live speakers and are meant to provide full range coverage to be able to effectively play back all of the instruments and voices in an efficient and effective manner. So what you have to do is confine that response to generally the same response characteristics you would get out of a guitar amp, which is a MUCH, MUCH simpler playback system. What's counter-intuitive is that you spend good money on a speaker with a wide response range, only to limit it's wide response range. Were the cabinet models included in the POD more accurate you probably wouldn't have to do that. But unfortunately the cabinet models are the same models regardless of whether you take your output into an amp or into an FRFR speaker. So it will be up to you to make up the difference. Fortunately the POD provides a number of ways you can approach this, and many of the speakers have correcting logic that can help as well. I myself heavily depend on the Global EQ of the POD to make the lion's share of my corrections which involves setting the low cut frequency to around 120hz and the high cut frequency to around 6.5 khz. That doesn't address every possible situation, but for me and the tones I'm typically going for with the guitars I use, it works pretty well. It does allow me to use the tone controls on my amp models in a fashion that's relatively consistent with what I'd use on a normal amp. But I do pretty much include a studio EQ as the last effect in my chain on most patches to fine tweak some frequencies as well as a final overall gain if I need it to normalize the volume between different patches. But bear in mind this works for ME, but your specific FRFR speaker, the type of music you play and the guitars you use can make a significant difference, so you may have to tweak and experiment with some of the various other settings or EQ effects to find what ultimately fits for you. It may seem like a lot more work, and it is at least in getting things setup initially, but just because you're cutting out segments of frequency response, doesn't mean you're cutting out any of the efficiency and effectiveness in the response of the frequencies you are using...which is SIGNIFICANTLY better response than you'll find in any guitar amp. Thus the clarity, articulation, and total control you can express over those frequencies in producing your sound is a generation beyond what you've been used to. Well worth the effort in my book because the live sound I'm getting from my guitar on stage is exactly what I'd be looking for in a final mix in the studio. Studio quality sound in a live environment..that's the target.

The unfortunate situation you have is that although you can correct the mix imbalance from your guitar, it will still be unbalanced because you can't correct the mix imbalance for everyone else. Sadly the situation you find yourself in is rampant among churches nowdays. There's been a massive rush toward silent stage as a way to gain total control over the sound levels, but silent stage can only be successful if you put the money and training behind it, neither of which are insignificant. And that's truly sad. I can't tell you how many churches I've visited with extraordinary investments in their sound system (including high end electronic drums) only to find out they haven't got the slightest clue how to present a balanced, professional mix. Exacerbating the problem is that everyone is using IEM mixed specifically for them, so the people on the worship team have no clue how bad the real mix is out front. But to be quite honest much of the blame lies with the musicians themselves. Many of the musicians are volunteers as well and are so focused on THEIR sound they forget to listen to whether or not they're blending effectively with the rest of the band, guitarists and drummers being the two worst offenders generally. I'm very fortunate in that regard in that I'm the only one that knows anything at all about sound, either live or recorded, so I'm trusted with all the decisions. Every once in a while the concept of silent stage raises it's ugly head and I'm prepared to argue it down because I'm also in charge of the band, so I've been very careful about getting everyone to manage their stage sound and listen effectively to each other when playing so the stage mix is correct and all the sound man has to do is duplicate that mix into the PA for better throw and projection. That's very different from silent stage in that the ENTIRE destiny of the mix lies in the hands of the sound person. To me, dealing with volunteers that I have to train, that's absolutely frightening. I wish you the best of luck in getting things corrected at your church. Certainly a good electronic drum kit would go a LONG way to getting things under control. But I hesitate to get your hopes up too high. It's probably not very likely that anyone on the front of the house is going to even know what to listen for to get the mix correct.

I can see how if your strategy on using the POD is to have just a few main patches that are oriented toward different setups (clean, crunch, overdriven, metal) that you use across a wide range of songs it might be better to use the 8 stompbox mode so you have a greater variety of effects available when playing in a given style. For my old brain that's way too much to remember, so I just setup patches for each of our songs with the minimal switches necessary for just that song even if many of the patches are similar. That comes with the added benefit of having the setlist displayed on my POD since I name the patch the same as the song. I'm also very conservative about what effects I actually apply a footswitch to. If the effect is constantly on in that patch (such as a noise gate, reverb, delay, etc) there's no reason to assign it to a footswitch, plus it's much less likely you'll inadvertantly turn something off you didn't mean to turn off.

I think with the kind of budget you have you'd be hard pressed to find a better value than the Alto TS212 speaker priced around $300. I haven't used them, but several people here have and are quite happy with them. Bear in mind that this is completely different style of arrangement than your typical guitar amp, but it's really the best way, in my opinion, to take advantage of the POD's capabilities. I'd encourage you to read through a number of the threads on here regarding FRFR setups to get an idea of how to set this type of system up to get the most out of it. I myself made this same type of transition (using a Yamaha DXR12) and can't imagine going back to a traditional setup now. Once you get it setup right you'll be blown away by the clarity and articulation of your patches.

I normally go to the JCM-800 as well, but I have to admit I've used the Soldano overdrive channel to get some very tight high-gain on occassion...maybe even a bit tighter than the JCM.

The only way I've ever come close to it with an electric guitar was to use the Boss Acoustic Simulator pedal. With the right guitar and with the right settings you can come very close, but I had to select the bypass option when I used it so it would route straight to the PA and not to the amp. But it was pretty handy for when I needed to play part of a song with electric and a few phrases with acoustic.

Be careful adjusting based on feedback from a forum. You really have no idea what kind of speakers someone is listening with and that can really flavor their opinions in ways that aren't too accurate.

I used a Mustang IV for several years before moving over to a POD and FRFR rig. Other than just using the POD as an extended effects board, I'm not sure you're going to be very happy integrating the two. The Mustang is pretty much a stand alone modeling system as is the POD (minus the output amp/cabinet). But it's not clear how you want to use these two together. You could use the Mustang as a pure output amp for the POD, but the Mustang isn't really all that great as a pure amp and it's speaker arrangement kind of depends on amp and cabinet modeling to achieve it's sound. With a 4 cable method I suppose you could augment the effects chain of the Mustang although the Mustang III has many of the same effects as the POD. Ultimately you have to decide which of these units is going to do the amp/speaker modeling and manually coordinating patches between the POD and Mustang to switch it on the fly seems awfully complex for any small benefit you might gain. I'm not discrediting the Mustang at all. Mine served me well for several years and we still use a Mustang III in our band for the rhythm guitar player, but I find it hard to imagine any significant benefit in trying to integrate the two.

kpsion, I don't really have a need for super high gain. Most of what I need in that regard isn't a lot different than what Peter Hanmer shows in his video with setting up a JCM800. In that style of music I usually prefer very tight and decently articulated overdriven tones similar to Joe Perry or Joe Walsh, so that's probably why I don't run into the problem. Other than that most of the styles I play tend to be much cleaner or slightly crunchy, or pure jazz mellow.

This is becoming one of those threads that make me feel good that my needs are SOOO simple.... :P

It's hard to say what exactly the problem is you might be having with your unit, other than the issues you had calibrating the expression pedal. It seems to me that if the unit isn't that old you might be better off returning it to the store and exchanging it. Most of the big box stores have a 30 day no question asked policy for return/exchange. At least that way you'd start with a fresh unit. In terms of sound, yes some of the amps do seem to replicate the underlying nose but it's not anything a noise gate doesn't fix. It's hard to say whether the other anomole you heard was from the unit or some type of sympathetic resonance issue with your headphones. Either way replacing it with a new unit would determine that as well as address the other issues with calibration. In my experience sending something in to be looked at isn't all that useful unless the problem is consistent and duplicatable. When it's intermittent there's not much they can do about it.

When you press the save button the first time it comes up with a screen that allows you to save the preset in a different location potentially with a different name. Edit those parameters and hit save a second time and it will be stored appropriately.

I've used the Jazz Rivet on a number of my patches and have never experienced any clipping even with the model volume up at 75%. It's actually been my go to model for jazz and clean BB King style blues. If you're referring to the global Inputs parameter for Guitar In-Z I have mine set for Auto which should let the POD manage the input impedence correctly. But then again I'm not using super hot pickups which could make a difference I suppose. I've made no changes to anything on the POD when using the Jazz Rivet other than to configure the amp model EQ, Drive, and Volume. It's output is not terribly different than many of the other models on the POD and is easily brought up with either the mixer block volumes or a Studio EQ toward the end of the chain.

The only thing that jumps out at me are your settings on 3/12 Inputs. Normally my POD HD ProX is set to Input 1 Source: Guitar Input 2 Source: Same Guitar In-Z: Auto Inputs Setup: Preset It seems like I read some info on this board somewhere about the routing of the stereo signals being messed up if Input 1 and Input 2 are mismatched. Try correcting that and see what happens. Also on 11/12 Global EQ, that's only the first parameter in a set of parameters that you choose by selecting with dial 1. Someone may have done something with Global EQ's but the easiest thing is this case is to simply press the Enter button and turn Global EQ off. Other than that you need to read the manual and familiarize yourself with all your options so you can understand what's going on.

It's my impression from several of the posts on this forum that many of the members here are unclear about the use of gain and what's referred to as "gain staging", which has lead to some bad experiences in connecting their PODs to either amps, FRFR speakers, and/or PA's. So just to add some clarity here's a rundown of what gain staging is about. In the case of all three situations guitar amps, FRFR speakers and PAs, the raw signal coming in goes through a pre-amp stage to get the signal up to the level where it can be amplified. It's probably easier to understand the process looking at it from a traditional mixing board perspective. At the top of each channel on a mixing board there is a knob typically labeled "gain". During sound checks the sound engineer uses this knob along with a button on the channel sometimes labelled PFL for pre-fader level/listen, to maximize the signal strength of that signal so that it's at a maximum setting without overdriving it which would cause it to potentially clip or distort. With the PFL button engaged they watch the signal lights on the meter to get it up as high as they can while leaving plenty of headroom for temporary spikes in the intensity of the signal (such as when a singer hits a high note with lots of power). This is separate and apart from adjusting the ultimate volume output each channel on the PA which is controlled by the faders on each channel. Guitar amps do the same thing using the Gain knob or Drive knob. However, guitar amps don't have the PFL function so you have to pretty much do it by ear by listening to the output to make sure you have a very clean signal with no breakup or distortion. For some guitar amps this is with the gain set to 0. Others have a bit more play to them. The volume knob on the amp acts just like the fader on a mixing board to increase/decrease the overall volume output measured in SPL or Sound Pressure Levels. Typically most, but not all, modern FRFR speakers come from the factory with their gain levels preset to appropriate levels. But they do make the assumption that the line input level on unbalanced signals will be at a pre-specified level of -10dBV, which is not the case on guitar amplifiers. That's why it's important to set the unbalanced output line level switch to either line or amp depending on the output device. The same would be true of going into an audio recording device. What's important in all of these cases as it pertains to the POD is that gain and volume are two very different things, and if gain is out of whack in your final signal chain you're not going to get the results you're looking for from the models and effects on the POD. You have to bear in mind the POD is MODELING distortion, not actually creating distortion by way of overdriving a preamp as on a guitar amp. Therefore if gain is not correct you'll likely be adding clipping or distortion on top of the modeled distortion coming from the POD, and your ears won't like it. I know this can be a very broad subject from a technical perspective, but I've tried to keep it as simple as possible so as not to confuse anyone but provide an accurate perspective in how to connect their PODS in various situations. If i've missed something feel free to add on.