Yet another speaker discussion for Helix...

[ofp2079]

Hello,

 

I'm looking for the best FRFR speaker solution for live use for my Helix.

I know there are tons of discussions, read many, still can't make up my mind... 

 

We are 2 guitarists in a cover band, rock/metal tracks, we play in small/medium places.

The other guitarist has just bought a Marshall Silver Jubilee 2555 (100W) with a 4x12. 

So I need a solution to stand on an equivalent level when it comes to global volume with his own rig. 

 

My choice comes down to this but I'm still opened for suggestions.

 

- a couple of Yamaha DXR12 or DXR10 

- a Firehawk 1500 (though I am not interested in the modeller inside, it would be just for the speakers and power)

 

What would you guys recommend ?

Any advice

 

Thank you

cheers

[cgar18]

Hello,

 

I'm looking for the best FRFR speaker solution for live use for my Helix.

I know there are tons of discussions, read many, still can't make up my mind... 

 

We are 2 guitarists in a cover band, rock/metal tracks, we play in small/medium places.

The other guitarist has just bought a Marshall Silver Jubilee 2555 (100W) with a 4x12. 

So I need a solution to stand on an equivalent level when it comes to global volume with his own rig. 

 

My choice comes down to this but I'm still opened for suggestions.

 

- a couple of Yamaha DXR12 or DXR10 

- a Firehawk 1500 (though I am not interested in the modeller inside, it would be just for the speakers and power)

 

What would you guys recommend ?

Any advice

 

Thank you

cheers

this sounds good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eByFmKfMScw&t=41s

[sleezye1]

A single dxr10 will stand up to that 4x12 volume wise

 

Or get 2.. one behind on a pole, one in front as a wedge

[Rocco_Crocco]

If his stage volume is loud you're going to have a hard time competing. Firehawk 1500 is the best for your situation if he likes his hundred watt behemoth loud.

 

Also, you may not be interested in the modeller inside the 1500, but if your helix goes down for some reason the firehawk makes a good backup.

[MusicLaw]

I went with two Yamaha DXR10 for my Helix. They sound phenomenal, and can get much louder than I'll ever need. I also preferred that the DXR10 are more compact and lighter than the also excellent DXR12. Either should serve you quite well, and both are covered by Yamaha's comforting 7 year warranty! Moreover, Yamaha is running a Rebate Program on them through the end of Sept 2017.

[ofp2079]

A single dxr10 will stand up to that 4x12 volume wise

 

Or get 2.. one behind on a pole, one in front as a wedge

 

This is were I have hard time understanding how 1x10 can compete volume wise with 4x12 , and this is also why I am considering 2x12 instead of 2x10.

can you guys please elaborate on that ?

I mean whatever the power amp, how can 1x10 move as much air as 4x12, I probably sound newbie here but I need to understand the physics behind.

[ofp2079]

If his stage volume is loud you're going to have a hard time competing. Firehawk 1500 is the best for your situation if he likes his hundred watt behemoth loud.

 

Also, you may not be interested in the modeller inside the 1500, but if your helix goes down for some reason the firehawk makes a good backup.

 

Good point on the firehawk backup... 

I wonder how the stereo effects are rendered though the Firehawk,  I'm guessing you cannot have the spacialization you'd get with a pair of speakers ?

[Rocco_Crocco]

Good point on the firehawk backup...

I wonder how the stereo effects are rendered though the Firehawk, I'm guessing you cannot have the spacialization you'd get with a pair of speakers ?

You would get much better separation with a pair of speakers.

[saks]

This is were I have hard time understanding how 1x10 can compete volume wise with 4x12 , and this is also why I am considering 2x12 instead of 2x10.

can you guys please elaborate on that ?

I mean whatever the power amp, how can 1x10 move as much air as 4x12, I probably sound newbie here but I need to understand the physics behind.

This is a great question! I'm also new and would like to know how this works.

[PeterHamm]

Are you using your on-stage speaker as the main audience sound source? If so, the 1500 is the clear winner imho.

[pilottes]

From Yamaha Web site 

 

"...Portable, yet capable of producing an astonishing 131 dB SPL, the DXR10’s compact, functional design makes it ideal for a wide range of applications. Whether providing simple vocal/instrument amplification, very powerful floor monitoring or comprising a compact SR system—the DXR10 delivers without compromising sound quality and power...."

 

131 dB SPL -> that sounds like a lot !?

[jbuhajla]

Decibels of volume is not directly proportional to total speaker surface area. 

[PeterHamm]

How about YOU get a 4x12 and a big tube power amp? It might be a great option.

[ofp2079]

Are you using your on-stage speaker as the main audience sound source? If so, the 1500 is the clear winner imho.

 

Yes that is the idea.

So Peter, you think I'd be better off to for  Helix -> Firehawk1500  (no PA)  small venues, rather than using 2 FRFR speakers (even the Yamaha's) ?

Forgot to say but I have an Alto TS10 for stage monitoring.

If I use the Helix into the Firehawk will it the sound output from the 6 speakers, I read somewhere the 6 speakers would work only when using the internal Firehawk which seems really strange.

[ofp2079]

How about YOU get a 4x12 and a big tube power amp? It might be a great option.

 

Actuallly I like to use modulation FX like delays, reverbs so in a way I don't want to loose the stereo quality  if outputting to a single cabinet. 

I'm guessing the Firehawk would be a fine compromise.

[DunedinDragon]

This is were I have hard time understanding how 1x10 can compete volume wise with 4x12 , and this is also why I am considering 2x12 instead of 2x10.

can you guys please elaborate on that ?

I mean whatever the power amp, how can 1x10 move as much air as 4x12, I probably sound newbie here but I need to understand the physics behind.

 

Because we're talking entirely different technologies.  Something like a DXR12 is designed to be capable of operating as a FOH PA speaker in a medium to large room, and filling it with sound.  The reasons are numerous, but it comes down to efficiency and preservation of sound energy.  All of the energy is directed forward in a fairly tight rectangular area, whereas a traditional 4x12 cabinet projects widely in a conical pattern.  So in the case of a 4x12 cabinet lots of sound energy gets expended and lost in the ceiling and in the floor and dissipates fairly rapidly across distance, whereas a speaker like a DXR12 projects in a wider pattern horizontally but a tighter spread vertically.  And it's really not just a 1x10 or a 1x12.  The power of the amp is allocated between the two speakers(horn with a compression driver and the 1x12) based on the frequency ranges they'll be responsible for and how efficient those speakers project across distance.

 

There are actually quite a few factors when it comes to the difference between a passive cabinet arrangement and an integrated power amp arrangement, but suffice it to say I've easily kept up on stage with Marshalls and Orange amps with just a single DXR12.  In practice, in a room where the instruments aren't mic'd, a DXR12 will lose much less sound energy and will retain it's volume better even at the back of the room.  This is one of many reasons why you would never use a 4x12 guitar cabinet for a PA speaker but a DXR12 would not be out of place at all.

[PeterHamm]

The real challenge, honestly, is that a 100W tube amp through a 4 x 12 is ridiculous for a small venue, and sound will carry so much from that that you almost need the same kind of speaker to compete, imho.

 

Deluxe Reverb-sized amps are all you need for a space like you are probably talking about.

 

One thing for sure, I've heard enough noisy music in my life and wouldn't be coming to see your band that sounds like it's probably too loud.

 

Ithink the 1500 is the right call, and I think your other guy needs to get a smaller amp and/or power attenuator so that y'all's ears survive...

[ofp2079]

Because we're talking entirely different technologies.  Something like a DXR12 is designed to be capable of operating as a FOH PA speaker in a medium to large room, and filling it with sound.  The reasons are numerous, but it comes down to efficiency and preservation of sound energy.  All of the energy is directed forward in a fairly tight rectangular area, whereas a traditional 4x12 cabinet projects widely in a conical pattern.  So in the case of a 4x12 cabinet lots of sound energy gets expended and lost in the ceiling and in the floor and dissipates fairly rapidly across distance, whereas a speaker like a DXR12 projects in a wider pattern horizontally but a tighter spread vertically.  And it's really not just a 1x10 or a 1x12.  The power of the amp is allocated between the two speakers(horn with a compression driver and the 1x12) based on the frequency ranges they'll be responsible for and how efficient those speakers project across distance.

 

There are actually quite a few factors when it comes to the difference between a passive cabinet arrangement and an integrated power amp arrangement, but suffice it to say I've easily kept up on stage with Marshalls and Orange amps with just a single DXR12.  In practice, in a room where the instruments aren't mic'd, a DXR12 will lose much less sound energy and will retain it's volume better even at the back of the room.  This is one of many reasons why you would never use a 4x12 guitar cabinet for a PA speaker but a DXR12 would not be out of place at all.

 

Great Explanation (I'll have to reread slowly though !) , thanks a lot for taking the time to expand on this. I'm saving your post for later reference.

[ofp2079]

The real challenge, honestly, is that a 100W tube amp through a 4 x 12 is ridiculous for a small venue, and sound will carry so much from that that you almost need the same kind of speaker to compete, imho.

 

Deluxe Reverb-sized amps are all you need for a space like you are probably talking about.

 

One thing for sure, I've heard enough noisy music in my life and wouldn't be coming to see your band that sounds like it's probably too loud.

 

Ithink the 1500 is the right call, and I think your other guy needs to get a smaller amp and/or power attenuator so that y'all's ears survive...

 

 

Not just small venues, medium too, outdoor, and he can attenuate it to 50W obviously... but I agree it is kind of overkill anyways, he pleased himself on this !

 

Another thing, how about Line6 releasing a  Helix1500 ?  

an amp/cabinet designed for the Helix.  I would not be surprised if they do so at some stage.

[Rocco_Crocco]

100 tube watts through a 4x12 will kill a pair of yamahas in a small room. Hell, it could kill a small animal. It really depends on what the other guitarist does with his hundred watts. If he's one of those guys who likes to crank his master volume to get his sound, you have to get something bigger than a pair of yamahas.

 

If he is reasonable and uses pedals to get his dirty sounds, than you should be ok with powered monitors.

[ofp2079]

100 tube watts through a 4x12 will kill a pair of yamahas in a small room. Hell, it could kill a small animal. It really depends on what the other guitarist does with his hundred watts. If he's one of those guys who likes to crank his master volume to get his sound, you have to get something bigger than a pair of yamahas.

 

If he is reasonable and uses pedals to get his dirty sounds, than you should be ok with powered monitors.

 

He is not the reasonable type, and he sure likes to crank his master vol !  :D

[Rocco_Crocco]

OP, please be advised that the firehawk 1500 is not without its flaws. Check out the firehawk forum to see about bluetooth connectivity issues and some noisiness.

 

I have one and like it very much, but its not perfect.

[spikey]

I use a Firehawk 1500 for "another" FRFR choice (I also use a pair of Mackie 824's in my studio) and I think it works out very well with Helix. 

[PeterHamm]

Another thought about your stereo situation.

Two guitarists in a band... One is using a 100W 4x12, the other is using stereo FRFR. Which one gets lost in the sauce. I'll give you a hint. It ain't the guy with the 100W amp.

I need to know how loud you guys play, seriously...

Actually, if it were me, and he was cranking' that, either it goes or I go.

[sleezye1]

If the 4x12 is drowning out 2 dxr's then its drowning out the drummer as well

[Rocco_Crocco]

If the 4x12 is drowning out 2 dxr's then its drowning out the drummer as well

It's not so much the 4x12. 100 tube watts is the main factor here. The 4x12 doesn't help, either, though. The combination will totally drown out a drummer.

[PeterHamm]

If the 4x12 is drowning out 2 dxr's then its drowning out the drummer as well

 

And damaging the hearing of the audience...

[sleezye1]

It's not so much the 4x12. 100 tube watts is the main factor here. The 4x12 doesn't help, either, though. The combination will totally drown out a drummer.

yes, 4x12 was shorthand for the whole rig lol

 

What I was getting at from the get go of this thread.... if this band is playing with no pa help (aside from vox) then a single dxr, with the marshall, with the bass rig are all limited to the acoustic drum volume. 

 

A single dxr on a pole will cut through (especially using the aforementioned alto as a wedge) ... if the drums are miced, then run the helix foh as well.. everything else is overkill imho

 

now saying that... my 21 yr old self would disagree  ;)

[cruisinon2]

He is not the reasonable type, and he sure likes to crank his master vol ! :D

"Unreasonable" might be a bit unfair...he's probably just deaf. ;)

[DunedinDragon]

"Unreasonable" might be a bit unfair...he's probably just deaf. ;)

 

I might opt for "amateurish" rather than "unreasonable"....but that might be too harsh.  But then again...maybe not.

[ofp2079]

Hi, thanks for your remarks.

 

I must say I was joking about the other guitarist, hence the smiley, it's just that he kinda likes to play loud, like most metal heads. (and he's young, I'm old !)

Of course we don't want him to drown the rest of the band, and he does not want that either.

I must add that the drums are not mic'ed, the bass player plays on a real amp, and the vocalist though PA and the help of an Alto TS10.

 

From your answers, I must say I'm still hesitating, pricewize the Firehawk costs 20% less than the solution with 2 DBX10 (I'm in Europe).

The Firehawk although its weight is still more 'mobile' than the solution with 2 DBX, but I'm loosing a bit of spatialization.

Some say that a single DBX10 would do ok, but in that case I'd prefer to opt for the Firehawk.

 

What about 2 ALTO TS10 vs 2 DBX10 ?  

Is there a gap in performance ?  

The two Altos cost the price of a single DBX.

[jbuhajla]

Lots of players are very happy with the Altos. Just about any powered speaker these days will treat you well. 

[PeterHamm]

Lots of players are very happy with the Altos. Just about any powered speaker these days will treat you well. 

 

And from what I've heard, it's the wrong speaker to compete with a loud 100W tube amp, though.

 

They are not good at running full-out all the time, I've heard that from a BUNCH of people (and dealers).

 

Then again... the only solutions for the OP, imho, are either match that guy with your own 100W/4x12 or get another band or fire the guy.

 

Seriously. 100W, or even 50W, tube amps are inappropriate in the places the OP is going to play.

[timmyo]

Another thought about your stereo situation.

 

Two guitarists in a band... One is using a 100W 4x12, the other is using stereo FRFR. Which one gets lost in the sauce. I'll give you a hint. It ain't the guy with the 100W amp.

 

 

 

You simply can't make generalisations like that.

 

Guitar cab drivers are very directional, ironically a 4x12 moreso.

 

PA drivers are not only far 'better' (and certainly more expensive) than cab drivers, they are less directional, and have far greater power handling with a more linear response as power goes up.

 

The DXR10 can put out 1100w / 131dB (I m aware that SPL generated by a constant-current device like a valve amp means the wattages are not comparable - but it's high for a PA speaker is the point) and I'd put a dollar on the cranked DXR at LEAST keeping up with the Marshall.

 

I've owned a 100w JCM800 head - it had a master volume and could be played at a range of different sound levels (I actually loved it through the Lo channel played clean!)

 

Let's not offer hard and fast 'facts' without knowing the setup eh :-) 

[PeterHamm]

I've owned a 100w JCM800 head - it had a master volume and could be played at a range of different sound levels (I actually loved it through the Lo channel played clean!)Let's not offer hard and fast 'facts' without knowing the setup eh :-) 

 

 

But we already know he plays it loud. FRFR ain't gonna keep up.

[Rocco_Crocco]

I think we can all agree the great solution is to get the other guitarist to play at a reasonable stage volume and for the OP to buy a pair of the Yamahas.

[PeterHamm]

I think we can all agree the great solution is to get the other guitarist to play at a reasonable stage volume and for the OP to buy a pair of the Yamahas.

 

 

I actually don't agree. I think with the vibe of this band (I'm guessing here), that even thought I VASTLY prefer FRFR and using the full modeling engine, this guy should seriously consider a great 4 x 12 (you can get one that's stereo, btw) and a tube power amp (also get one stereo).

 

I don't know for sure, because I haven't heard him, but that would be a fantastic rig.

[ofp2079]

I think we can all agree the great solution is to get the other guitarist to play at a reasonable stage volume and for the OP to buy a pair of the Yamahas.

 

I think I'm gonna leave that band. Problem solved !!  :D

 

Next week we have our first rehearsal since he bought the Marshall. 

I'm gonna bring 2 Altos TS10 to see how it goes.  

I'll tell you at what level the Altos and our ears all die all together !  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

The 3 other band members will have left the building way before that threshold I think !!

[timmyo]

 FRFR ain't gonna keep up.

 

That's a nonsense statement. You're saying that PA can't out-shout a guitar amp. It's demonstrably not true. 

[Rocco_Crocco]

I actually don't agree. I think with the vibe of this band (I'm guessing here), that even thought I VASTLY prefer FRFR and using the full modeling engine, this guy should seriously consider a great 4 x 12 (you can get one that's stereo, btw) and a tube power amp (also get one stereo).

 

I don't know for sure, because I haven't heard him, but that would be a fantastic rig.

I hear you, and I would love to get my hands on a Marshall power amp and a good 4x12. It's just too much for me to lug around. The OP might be different.