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2.50 New Mono Reverb Issues With High Gain Sound

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I just ran through the 5 new mono reverbs with a very basic high gain setup:

 

Rectifire (Gain 7.5, Master 10.0, Channel 5.0) -> Mono Reverb -> XXL Cab

 

Had reverbs set at 50% mix with decay set very high at 9 (which should be a pretty heavy amount of verb).

 

There is almost no audible reverb even with the mix at 50% (the only exception being PlateauX where you can hear a bit of distant harmonics).

 

This is the exact same problem I posted about the original reverbs, something isn't right with the way the Helix reverbs interact with high-gain setups.

 

If I turn down the gain, the channel volume, and the master volume of the amp (which is obviously a much cleaner tone).... then I hear a lot more reverb with the exact same reverb settings. 

 

So it seems as though the high-gain amps are overpowering the reverbs and even the level setting (+6dB) can't make up for it.

 

Help!!!

 

 

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I just ran through the 5 new mono reverbs with a very basic high gain setup:

 

Rectifire (Gain 7.5, Master 10.0, Channel 5.0) -> Mono Reverb -> XXL Cab

 

Had reverbs set at 50% mix with decay set very high at 9 (which should be a pretty heavy amount of verb).

 

There is almost no audible reverb even with the mix at 50% (the only exception being PlateauX where you can hear a bit of distant harmonics).

 

This is the exact same problem I posted about the original reverbs, something isn't right with the way the Helix reverbs interact with high-gain setups.

 

If I turn down the gain, the channel volume, and the master volume of the amp (which is obviously a much cleaner tone).... then I hear a lot more reverb with the exact same reverb settings. 

 

So it seems as though the high-gain amps are overpowering the reverbs and even the level setting (+6dB) can't make up for it.

 

Help!!!

 

Not that it should happen when a reverb is placed between the amp and the cab but just curious, does this happen when you run the reverb after the cab or only when you run it between the amp and the cab?

 

Update: I tested this myself with the signal path you listed above as well as re-positioning the reverb after the cab. I wouldn't exactly call the amount of reverb overwhelming but not inaudible either. I can definitely see where you would expect to hear a lot more reverb on the 50% setting which is essentially the reverb maxed out but still mixed with the direct signal. Cranking up the decay definitely makes it more apparent but that should not be required. Strange, in most of my presets which tend to be quite a bit more loaded up than this I have to dial down the mix on the reverb not to overwhelm the preset with too much. I can see where this would be less reverb than expected. If I were assessing the reverb just by this patch I would have to agree that there is less reverb present than there should be.

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Treat it as if you were in the studio... there, you'd be adding all your FX at the board. Yes, I know if this were a "real" amp and cabinet, the cab is the last thing in the chain...but this is modeling. It's not an amp, and things get weird sometimes.

 

I use plenty of high gain tones. Reverb is always dead last in the signal chain, and I have no problem hearing it. In fact, the default settings for most of them will leave you drowning in reverb. There's hardly one I can use without backing off the mix control.

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I remember this topic from before... I think that the saturated distortion is just causing the reverb to get washed out. If you listen to the raw signal coming out of the amp model, it has a lot of high end crap, and when you sent that through the reverb, it just becomes a washy mess. Putting the reverb after the cab and adjusting the high cut is probably a much better way to go about it.

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So it seems as though the high-gain amps are overpowering the reverbs and even the level setting (+6dB) can't make up for it.

 

Help!!!

You might have a few misconceptions about the way things work. Dont be offended by that we all do on somethings or another.

 

The level setting is not going to even attempt to make up for it.  All that level slider will do is boost EVERYTHING that comes before that slider ( including all volumes of all blocks before it) by equal amounts. The only chance of getting more reverb into the signal is by using the mix parameter of the reverb block. Nothing else will work, short of using a compressor at the end of the signal chain which you dont want to do.

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Treat it as if you were in the studio... there, you'd be adding all your FX at the board. Yes, I know if this were a "real" amp and cabinet, the cab is the last thing in the chain...but this is modeling. It's not an amp, and things get weird sometimes.

 

I use plenty of high gain tones. Reverb is always dead last in the signal chain, and I have no problem hearing it. In fact, the default settings for most of them will leave you drowning in reverb. There's hardly one I can use without backing off the mix control.

Agree 100%. Throw those reverbs after your cab, they will fill right up!

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You high gain players use big washy reverbs with high gain? I would have thought they wouldn't play nice together. Can you post a youtube link to an example? My mind can't come up with how that would sound...

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I remember this topic from before... I think that the saturated distortion is just causing the reverb to get washed out. If you listen to the raw signal coming out of the amp model, it has a lot of high end crap, and when you sent that through the reverb, it just becomes a washy mess. Putting the reverb after the cab and adjusting the high cut is probably a much better way to go about it.

 

 

Agree 100%. Throw those reverbs after your cab, they will fill right up!

 

I usually place my reverbs after my cab too and that was my first thought but that does not appear to be the only or primary issue with this preset. I tested the OP's sample preset above with reverb after the cab and it still does not appear to be generating as much reverb as you would expect. I think in this case phil_m's post above is more to the point and maybe re-positioning the high cut filter would help. It does not appear to be the positioning of the reverb that is the primary issue here though. Could be something else going on as well with this particular combination of blocks. I just have not ever encountered this issue before on my presets. It seems almost as if the reverb is not responding as strongly as usual to the dominant frequencies being generated by this particular amp, at least at its default settings. Definitely worthy of closer examination.

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I originally posted this issue in April 2017 with (what are now called) the legacy reverbs and it's never been resolved.  It is definitely an issue with the new mono reverbs.

 

 

Here is the test I just ran through, which includes your recommendations, but still confirms my original post:

 

1) Upgraded to v2.50.00 and performed a factory reset.

 
2) Created a new preset with only two blocks, putting the reverb after the amp+cab and eliminating the high and low cuts from the equation:
 
Amp + Cab: Cali Rectifire
-----------------------------------
Drive 7.5
Channel Volume 7.5
Master Volume 10.0
Mic 57 Dynamic
Mic Distance 1"
 
 
Mono Reverb: Glitz
-----------------------------------
Decay 9.0
Mix 50%
Lo Cut Off
Hi Cut Off
 
3) There is almost no perceptible reverb even at these very high decay/mix settings for high gain setups.  The high and low cuts have no effect.
 
4) Now, bypass the Cali Rectifire and add whatever clean amp + cab you want before the reverb.   You will notice there is a lot of reverb on the clean amp with the exact same reverb settings.
 
 
It appears to me that the more high gain the signal in Helix, the less reverb you get...   which makes no sense to me, because a more compressed signal should have more of the effect at the same settings correct?
 
 
Thanks everyone for helping!

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I usually place my reverbs after my cab too but that does not appear to be the only or primary issue with this preset. I tested the OP's sample preset above with reverb after the cab and it still does not appear to be generating as much reverb as you would expect. I think in this case phil_m's post above is more to the point and maybe re-positioning it with a high cut filter would help. It does not appear to be the positioning of the reverb that is the primary issue here though. Could be something else going on as well with this particular combination of blocks. I just have not ever encountered this issue before on my presets. It seems almost as if the reverb is not responding as strongly as usual to the  frequencies being generated by this particular amp, at least at its default settings. Definitely worthy of closer examination.

I tried it with an IR and it responds the same way. It just seems to me it functions more like the legacy slider, where the most reverb is at 100%, instead of the hx alternative, in which the most reverb is in the 50% position.

 

Theres plenty of verb on tap. Easy to WAY oversaturate it. Doesnt seem like theres anything wrong, just that the slider operates in an alternative manner. The fact that the verb increases gradually and smooth from 50 to 100%, seems to supports my point of view.

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I tried it with an IR and it responds the same way. It just seems to me it functions more like the legacy slider, where the most reverb is at 100%, instead of the hx alternative, in which the most reverb is in the 50% position.

 

Theres plenty of verb on tap. Easy to WAY oversaturate it. Doesnt seem like theres anything wrong, just that the slider operates in an alternative manner. The fact that the verb increases gradually and smooth from 50 to 100%, seems to supports my point of view.

 

All the mono reverbs I have tried, if I remember correctly, operate like most of the effects on the Helix where 50% is the maximum level of effect mixed with the max direct signal. As you move past 50% you get less and less direct signal until at 100% you have nothing but effect. That may not be the type of tone the OP is looking for as using that method makes the reverb louder than the direct signal although it is certainly an option and maybe you could use the mix control to mitigate it somewhat. You do bring up another interesting point though. I have not tried it on this particular preset but maybe one easy workaround here is to put the reverb in a split/merge loop at 100% and just mix it into the signal path to taste. That will probably get the OP all the reverb he wants although it will eat up a loop. I still think it is worth examining why this is happening although maybe the reverb is just getting washed out as phil_m postulated. This is probably one of those situations where I might just move to another combination of blocks. Not ideal I know.

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I originally posted this issue in April 2017 with (what are now called) the legacy reverbs and it's never been resolved.  It is definitely an issue with the new mono reverbs.

 

 

Here is the test I just ran through, which includes your recommendations, but still confirms my original post:

 

1) Upgraded to v2.50.00 and performed a factory reset.

 
2) Created a new preset with only two blocks, putting the reverb after the amp+cab and eliminating the high and low cuts from the equation:
 
Amp + Cab: Cali Rectifire
-----------------------------------
Drive 7.5
Channel Volume 7.5
Master Volume 10.0
Mic 57 Dynamic
Mic Distance 1"
 
 
Mono Reverb: Glitz
-----------------------------------
Decay 9.0
Mix 50%
Lo Cut Off
Hi Cut Off
 
3) There is almost no perceptible reverb even at these very high decay/mix settings for high gain setups.  The high and low cuts have no effect.
 
4) Now, bypass the Cali Rectifire and add whatever clean amp + cab you want before the reverb.   You will notice there is a lot of reverb on the clean amp with the exact same reverb settings.
 
 
It appears to me that the more high gain the signal in Helix, the less reverb you get...   which makes no sense to me, because a more compressed signal should have more of the effect at the same settings correct?
 
 
Thanks everyone for helping!

 

 

Have you tried moving the low and high cuts on the reverb around instead of just setting them to "Off"?  I wonder if this would help. You also might try experimenting with the amp's mid, treble, bass, master, etc. settings to see if there are any EQ ranges on the amp that trigger a more robust response from the reverb. I would be interested in the results of this experiment. Please post back if you get around to it.

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Is it that the signal arriving at the reverb is too hot? Try using a level meter.

First measure the level of the guitar only signal.

Then reduce the amp channel volume so it is producing the same output level as the guitar only signal level and make sure the signal arriving at the reverb is also at that level.

It may not help at all just a thought.

I will have to try it out tomorrow.

Can you post the patch or patches your using so we can look into it and observe it.

Note you can still drive an amp hard b4 the amp block with distortion and set high gain and drive... just get the channel volume down and raise the overall patch volume at the end of path or using main vol dial up to maxed out.

Plus maybe get the reverb placed after the cab.

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Here is a patch I made that shows the problem pretty clearly.   Just remove the .txt file extension (that was so I could post it here).

 

At 50% mix and decay set to 9.0, there is almost no reverb at all.  If you take the reverb mix higher, you just lose volume.

 

This seems to happen with all the new HX mono reverbs, they don't work with high-gain signals.

 

I have tried lowering the volume of the signal before it hits the reverb and playing with the high and low cuts, nothing changes.

 

 

HX Mono Verb.hlx.txt

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Looks like the OP got it right! MusicLaw posted this in another topic for an issue regarding the "Glitz" reverb. It is a post from the Helix Gear page and seems to reflect exactly what Monkeysqueak had been observing and Line6 is promising a fix in the next update.    https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/25811583/

 

By, sheer cosmic coincidence 'The Gear Page' is inaccessible at the moment so if you click on their link above at the time of this posting you won't see it. Here is the post from 'The Gear Page(TGP):

Regarding the new HX reverbs, there is a bug where the mono versions sound different from the stereo versions. This is a bug that will be fixed in the next update. So while I'm in there I will also be making sure you all can get more wet. So we're sorry ahead of time to those who may have already dialed in some tones with the current settings, but rest assured the work will be done pertaining the Mix parameter only so hopefully it wont be too hard to get back to where you like it. As usual, we are all really happy to hear all of the feedback!

 

Hats off to Line6 for getting out an early warning on this before people spend too much time designing presets with the new mono HX reverbs but why are we hearing about this second-hand from the Gear Page? Can we please get more posts from Line6 staff like DI, Frank, Ben,  redirected over to the forum. I may get some pushback on this and maybe I am just missing some of the posts here but it seems that critical information as well as just great to know details from Line6 developers and product managers are getting posted much more frequently only on the Helix Gear Page site and not on their own Line6 forum. It seems increasingly like the Gear Page is the place to post questions if you want to have any hope of someone responding directly from Line6 short of opening up a ticket. Not saying they owe it to anyone to respond at all.  I am extremely grateful that they bother on what is often probably their personal time and it is certainly their prerogative where they want to post. I just don't get why the Line6 forum seems to be getting neglected in this regard.

 

There were a ton of questions yesterday regarding the new firmware rollout including the OP's for this topic with hardly a peep from Line6. His question appears to have gotten answered over on the Gear Page (assuming the post was at it appeared from a Line6 developer, did not recognize his screen name, 'SHwang_guitar', but the post looked legit). Anyway, I am not predicating this comment solely on that one post. It seems like this should be the first place these questions get answered by Line6 staff, or ideally both places to reach the largest possible audience. The saving grace are users like phil_m and silverhead who do a such a fine job of addressing questions on the forum as well as the other forum members who maintain a presence on both sites and relay critical information to the forum. Some/much of that information is not making it over here in a timely fashion though, or even at all. Causes a lot of unnecessary churn here as well as needless speculation on problems or questions that have already been addressed by Line6 staff on 'The Gear Page' site.

 

I guess the best course of action right now is to follow both sites, I just don't understand the disconnect. If this is going to continue to be the norm let's set up an automatic push of posts by Line6 staff on "The Gear Page" site over to the forum or at least let users here know that they are going to have to watch and post to both sites if they want a better chance of getting a response from Line6.

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Makes sense as I have been using the stereo reverbs and all been ok as far as I know that's how it supposed to sound.... so just tried mono.... and yep it all gets squished out of sight... I guess I'm ok as I always use stereo reverbs at end of patch...

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It's not exactly the same issue as the OP, but I definitely did observe that even at 50% mix the amount of reverb in the signal is a lot lower than I would like. On the old Pod XT anything above 40% would start to mask the regular tone, but with these Helix reverbs you can get up to 50% and it's still relatively dry - until you switch to a clean tone, where the original note decays faster than the reverb does so you really hear it.

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yes i noticed last night that the mono reverbs are quite subtle compared to the stereo versions.. funny that a bug that obvious got thru, especially after the extended bug squashing week ;)

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It may not be a bug, but just "more" reverb with the stereo models due to time offset between left and right even when summed to mono at the end. Just a thought... Doubt that has anything to do with the high gain/reverb interaction though. 

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and Line6 is promising a fix in the next update

That's the important part on all of this... ;)

 

funny that a bug that obvious got thru

 

 

I don't think it got thru without them knowing. I think It's another release it now (the natives are restless) and fix it later thing. A minor issue for me, but maybe not for some. Either way, its damned if they do release it or damned if they don't for Line-6... And like JB said, it "may" not be a bug at all lol... :lol:

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See I'm not crazy!   I hope they go through all mono HX, stereo HX, and legacy reverbs and specifically test with a high gain signal, because that seems to make the problem worse.

 

Thanks all for the responses and help!!!   Line 6 as usual is awesome.

 

Cosmos Echo into Stereo Searchlights Reverb sounds amazing, plays very nice with my high gain stuff.   Great work guys!

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It may not be a bug, but just "more" reverb with the stereo models due to time offset between left and right even when summed to mono at the end. Just a thought... Doubt that has anything to do with the high gain/reverb interaction though. 

 

It is a bug in the Mix parameter where the reverbs don't get wet enough on the new mono HX reverbs. Line6 is saying so themselves and has confirmed this. The bug causing the lack of reverb may be more noticeable with the high gain models due to the natural masking effect of the distortion and mid/high frequencies' EQ profile.

 

Until the bug is fixed I would reiterate the workaround I posted above of putting the mono HX reverbs in a split/merge loop, set the 'Mix' to 100%, and using the split/merge block parameters to mix the reverb in to taste.

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It is a bug in the Mix parameter where the reverbs don't get wet enough on the new mono HX reverbs. Line6 is saying so themselves and has confirmed this. The bug causing the lack of reverb may be more noticeable with the high gain models due to the natural masking effect of the distortion and mid/high frequencies' EQ profile.

 

Until the bug is fixed I would reiterate the workaround I posted above of putting the mono HX reverbs in a split/merge loop, set the 'Mix' to 100%, and using the split/merge block parameters to mix the reverb in to taste.

Ok, thanks. I've got the new reverbs where I like them with enough mix (in series). So when the issue is fixed, I will just have to revisit the mix parameter to turn them down a bit. 

 

Ain't no big thang since they sound so dang good. I can see where having more would be good with some very ambient sounds though. 

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I just want to be clear that it is more than just the new HX mono reverbs that are affected.  Most of the legacy reverbs have always had this issue (at least with high gain signals) and some of the new HX stereo reverbs have this issue as well (again with high gain signals).

 

Just wish someone from Line 6 acknowledged this problem when I first brought it up in April 2017!

 

Hopefully next update fixes all 3 types of reverbs! 

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I just want to be clear that it is more than just the new HX mono reverbs that are affected. Most of the legacy reverbs have always had this issue (at least with high gain signals) and some of the new HX stereo reverbs have this issue as well (again with high gain signals).

 

Just wish someone from Line 6 acknowledged this problem when I first brought it up in April 2017!

 

Hopefully next update fixes all 3 types of reverbs!

I don’t think this bug is necessarily your issue. I mean, it does affect these particular reverbs, but I think your issue is more related to the fact that you’re putting the reverb before the cab block.

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Reverb before the cab block is a perfectly legitimate chain to use. It's what you're going to have if you have reverb on your pedal board, and isn't going to affect the overall balance of the reverb, unless for some reason you're relying on a lot of top end.

 

I just wish the unit provided a wet gain rather than just the mix% because it's obvious the reverbs differ a lot in terms of how loud their relative output is at 50% mix.

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Please test exactly what I wrote in post #9 before making recommendations, unfortunately this is what happened last time and why this problem has existed for almost a full year now.

 

I was very clear in stating that I eliminated the cab block by using the "amp+cab" models and placed the reverbs AFTER the "amp+cab" block per suggestions.  It makes no difference.

 

This problem has always existed in the legacy reverbs, it exists in all mono reverbs, and it exists in some of the stereo reverbs.

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