update 2.60 _ loss of DSP

[MAG2005]

Just did the update to 2.60

Weird thing I noticed is that some preset were screwed up afterwards. Just some of 'em. Trying to put them back together I realized I could not load all the blocks I previously had. Incidently, those preset that were screwed were fully loaded. No room for even a gain block (in path A that is, but path B is loaded enough that I can't compensate in this one).

I have to conclude that the update has changed something in the way the machine uses its DSP. Maybe a process is taking up just a bit more.

A little disappointed with that.  I was pretty much able to do what I wanted with the Helix, now I'm more limited.

 

Has anyone notice anything similar? It would be nice to have Line6 address this problem. Besides changing my patches, is there a solution that could enable me to keep all the blocks in?

 

As a reference, path A was loaded with the Fassel Wah, Kinky Comp, Minotaur, Scream 808, Kinky Boost, Volume Pedal, Archetype Clean Amp (Amp only), Solo Lead Crunch (Amp only). That completely used the dsp of path A. Now I can't load all of those blocks in anymore.

 

[rd2rk]

Have you contacted support?

[phil_m]

Usually if they make changes that affect DSP usage, it's in the other direction. Are you sure you're using the same version (as in mono vs stereo) of all those effects as you were before?

[MAG2005]

Double checked on the mono thing, and they're all in mono. Also loaded the bundle I saved before the update and only the presets that were full don't get loaded correctly.

 

I will contact support. I was curious to see if I was the only one. I think it's probably a minimal change but I somehow managed to really fully load the dsp with a specific combination of blocks. If I use the new Placater Clean instead of the Archetype Clean, then it works.

[Geeman]

Please keep us posted on your outcome!  I was about to do the 2.60 update but, now I think I'll wait and see if this is an issue or not. 

[jbuhajla]

Maybe the new reverbs (mono version) being fixed take more DSP?

[kylotan]

I don't think anything changed on the new reverbs except the relative mix level.

[MAG2005]

I created a support ticket. Will wait for the answer and keep you posted.

I wouldn't think it's the reverbs. They are in path B in my patches and therefore shouldn't be using the dsp of path A.

[jbuhajla]

General firmware updates could affect path A because the firmware runs on the processor running path A. Just me guessing though...

[MAG2005]

That would make sense.

 

But still, I would like to keep my patches intact when upgrading the firmware. If we lose a little everytime there's an update, we'll have to think twice before doing so.

[dandesy]

1 hour ago, MAG2005 said:

That would make sense.

 

But still, I would like to keep my patches intact when upgrading the firmware. If we lose a little everytime there's an update, we'll have to think twice before doing so.

I agree, obviously.  At the very least, it should be clearly documented in the release notes.

[c0ntact0]

15 hours ago, dandesy said:

I agree, obviously.  At the very least, it should be clearly documented in the release notes.

I haved problems with saved presets too. One of them freezed the HX when I select it. The backup Line6 tells you to do before the update, is pointless if you need to delete your favorite preset to make the HX works. Maybe they need to put some "update at your on risk" alert in the update instrutions, more or less as they do with the Amp switching (no list of supported amps, just a  statement like "tested with many popular amps but may not work with yours").

 

[bsd512]

2 hours ago, c0ntact0 said:

I have problems with saved presets too. One of them freezes the HX when I select it. The backup Line6 tells you to do before the update is pointless if you gone to losse your favorite presets anyway. Maybe they need to put some "update at your on risk" alert in the update instrutions, more or less as they do with the Amp switching (no list of supported amps, just a "tested with many popular amps but may not work with yours" statement).

I haven't tested this myself, but my understanding is that Helix Native can handle more processing that the hardware Helix. Maybe you could load the affected preset into Native, move some things from Path 1 to Path 2 or vice versa and resave it, then load it back into your Helix? It's not a perfect solution, but might help keep you from having to completely recreate it.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think Native supports importing the backup file from HX Edit, so you would have had to save your individual presets in order to use that method vs using the more convenient and complete HX Edit backup that the update instructions advise folks to use.

 

If you think it's a good idea for Helix Native to be able to import presets and IR's from an HX Edit backup file, vote up this Ideascale entry:

 

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Ability-to-Restore-Native-from-HX-Edit-Backup/918622-23508

[MAG2005]

The problem for me is not necessarily to have to move things around or having to redo the preset. I know I can make something work. I just don't like the idea of having to use a different amp or pedal model in a patch that sounded good before.

 

I haven't tried it, but I think I could go back to 2.54 if I don't use the new amp models. But they do sound good though..

[phil_m]

23 minutes ago, bsd512 said:

I haven't tested this myself, but my understanding is that Helix Native can handle more processing that the hardware Helix. Maybe you could load the affected preset into Native, move some things from Path 1 to Path 2 or vice versa and resave it, then load it back into your Helix? It's not a perfect solution, but might help keep you from having to completely recreate it.

 

They should behave exactly the same as far as the DSP limit is concerned. It's really a self-imposed, fictional limit with Native, though, because it's not representing the actual DSP power available in someone's system. But they're the same so preset made in Native will transfer to the hardware and vice versa.

[phil_m]

16 hours ago, MAG2005 said:

That would make sense.

 

But still, I would like to keep my patches intact when upgrading the firmware. If we lose a little everytime there's an update, we'll have to think twice before doing so.

 

Like I said earlier, it pretty much always goes the other way - you gain more DSP in the sense that amp models and effects are optimized. Perhaps you had a preset that was borderline to begin with. Are you sure you were using the same channel of the SLO amp model before and after the update?

[MAG2005]

The preset was definitely borderline because I could not add any other blocks to it, not even a gain block. As for the SLO channel, yes they were the same. I was using the Archetype Clean because the SLO clean wouldn't allow me to use the SLO Crunch, and I used the SLO crunch because the SLO Lead wasn't available anyway.

Obviously, I didn't lose a lot of dsp, but still, I know I lost a little. And of course, I'm not talking of losing dsp per se, but having other process I dont control use it.

[MAG2005]

17 hours ago, jbuhajla said:

General firmware updates could affect path A because the firmware runs on the processor running path A. Just me guessing though... 

 

I just had an idea and tried to load what I had in path A to path B, and it still didn't work. So... I don't know... It seems constant to both paths.

[c0ntact0]

1 hour ago, bsd512 said:

I haven't tested this myself, but my understanding is that Helix Native can handle more processing that the hardware Helix. Maybe you could load the affected preset into Native, move some things from Path 1 to Path 2 or vice versa and resave it, then load it back into your Helix? It's not a perfect solution, but might help keep you from having to completely recreate it.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think Native supports importing the backup file from HX Edit, so you would have had to save your individual presets in order to use that method vs using the more convenient and complete HX Edit backup that the update instructions advise folks to use.

 

If you think it's a good idea for Helix Native to be able to import presets and IR's from an HX Edit backup file, vote up this Ideascale entry:

 

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Ability-to-Restore-Native-from-HX-Edit-Backup/918622-23508

When I talk about HX I'm refering to the HX Effects not Helix Native. The preset was created on HX Effects with 2.52 firmware, saved just as refered in the update instrutions and restored after the 2.60 update.

[bsd512]

2 hours ago, phil_m said:

 

They should behave exactly the same as far as the DSP limit is concerned. It's really a self-imposed, fictional limit with Native, though, because it's not representing the actual DSP power available in someone's system. But they're the same so preset made in Native will transfer to the hardware and vice versa.

Thanks for that clarification. I thought I read somewhere that Native didn't have the same hardware-imposed DSP limits that the Helix hardware had. I stand corrected.

[Dshow]

Maybe you could post the preset you're trying to load so we can test and see if it works on other devices?

[MAG2005]

I had saved the bundle before the update. I don't know if I can extract a single preset from that. I'm joining the whole bundle to the post.

 

I received an answer from Line6 but they just told me there was an issue importing presets containing the Kinky Boost. Didn't have that problem since I have a Kinky Boost in all my patches. I'm thinking of making a video documenting the problem.

 

Also I realized I used the term "loss of dsp" while I maybe should have used "loss of memory". I actually don't know which might be the cause.

Helix Bundle (2018-Jul-16).hlb

[bsd512]

2 hours ago, MAG2005 said:

I had saved the bundle before the update. I don't know if I can extract a single preset from that. I'm joining the whole bundle to the post.

 

I received an answer from Line6 but they just told me there was an issue importing presets containing the Kinky Boost. Didn't have that problem since I have a Kinky Boost in all my patches. I'm thinking of making a video documenting the problem.

 

Also I realized I used the term "loss of dsp" while I maybe should have used "loss of memory". I actually don't know which might be the cause.

Helix Bundle (2018-Jul-16).hlb

I can extract your preset for you from the bundle file. I can also test whether my Helix can load it.

 

Here's what I find in there. Which preset is the offending one?

 

cracking open helix file 'test/Helix Bundle (2018-Jul-16).hlb'
Schema: L6PresetBundle
Name: HX Edit Bundle Jul-16-2018 1:29:47am
File: Helix Bundle (2018-Jul-16).hlb
SETLIST: USER 1
  PRESET: Test_Arch_XLR+PE
  PRESET: Test_Sold_XLR+PE
  PRESET: WU_Cartographer
  PRESET: WU_H&K_XLR+Cab
  PRESET: Test Mitch B+G 
  PRESET: GIA recording
  PRESET: WU_H&K_XLR+Cab
  PRESET: Bass
 

 

[MAG2005]

Thanks. First 2 are problematic. The others were OK.

[bsd512]

17 minutes ago, MAG2005 said:

Thanks. First 2 are problematic. The others were OK.

 

I tried both of those on my Helix. In both cases, Path 1 is empty. I take it that is not supposed to be like that? (screenshot)

 

Anyway, your bug is confirmed. I'm running 2.60 firmware and HX Edit.

 

Do you want me to send you the extracted presets from the bundle? Not sure if you need those or not. Note - these are extracted directly from the bundle, not what they would be if loaded into the Helix first, so Path 1 should be intact in the .hlx file I extracted from the bundle.

 

 

[bsd512]

I tried to load one into Native also, and got "Not enough resources". So that's confirmed as well.

 

 

[MAG2005]

Thanks for checking. The same was happening to me. Path A had been cleared, but it contained the blocks I had listed.

 

If you can send me the two presets I could forward them to Line6 support. They didn't seem to grasp the nature of the problem I described. They would have something to work with.

[bsd512]

I sent them to you by pm. Good luck and keep us posted on support.

 

[Dshow]

7 hours ago, MAG2005 said:

Thanks for checking. The same was happening to me. Path A had been cleared, but it contained the blocks I had listed.

 

If you can send me the two presets I could forward them to Line6 support. They didn't seem to grasp the nature of the problem I described. They would have something to work with.

 

I've deleted the Wah in the first path.

Give it a try if you can open it now. It works for me.

Test_Arch_XLR+PE.hlx

Test_Sold_XLR+PE.hlx

[MAG2005]

I just packed the Helix for a gig, so I'll try sunday night.

I have no doubt it will work. As soon as some dsp is freed up it works. I redid the patch using the Placater Clean instead of the Archetype Clean and it works. it just a really small amount of dsp that is lost.

[meshax]

Same thing happened to me too. I lost all blocks from A path on one preset. Funny thing is that after I recreated it, it works better (at least it seems to sound better, more sustain, don't know how I even packed more functions in it now), but the problem for me is how do I know if preset is damaged. This preset worked fine through 3 or 4 firmware upgrades, but after 2.6 it was lost. 

[scallybert]

Saw this in the Helix Native update 1.60 notes:

///

Bug Fixes

• DSP intensive presets with one or more Placater Amp+Cab, Amp, or Preamp blocks can sometimes generate an error message — FIXED

///

Is this at all relevant ?

[MAG2005]

There were no Placater blocks in the patches I was using. I don't think this would be related. But it's good to know.

I'm still waiting to hear from Line6 support on the issue.

[MAG2005]

Just had a reply from Line6 Support. They're saying this thread is really helpful and will be passed down to QA to track down the issue.

 

So, good job everybody and thanks. Hopefully it will be addressed in future updates.

[c0ntact0]

Returned my HX Effetcs to dealer, a new one arrived, same problem, returned for refund. I'm buying a MOD Duo from MOD Devices. No more Line6 for me.
Line6 is playing with the customers patience...

[MusicLaw]

@MAG2005Helix's two DSP chips are dedicated, one each, to Path 1 (A & B) and Path 2 (A & B). Path 1 and Path 2 are each capable of using their Path B, but only if extended via reassigning the output Block, or, by inserting a Split Block to Split the Path. 

 

I did not open your Presets file, so the only preset signal path image I viewed was what bsd512 posted in his reply. In your posts, where you are referring Path A and Path B, my impression is that you are actually referring to Path's 1A and Path 2A?

[es345tds]

This is not directly related to this DSP issue but could someone tell me where to get info on the total DSP values per Path 1 and Path 2 and the related DSP values of the models and effects so I can figure out DSP usage other than trial and error?

[psarkissian]

Found this in the Knowledge Base, not certain if this is what you're looking for,....

 

 ... hope it helps or is in the right direction.

 

[MusicLaw]

Also see: Ben Vesco's Helix DSP Allocations. At last glance, Ben's info was up to date as of firmware version 2.50.