Why there is almost no distortion from the amps

[jonandtice]

5 hours ago, jpdennis said:

 

 

Yes it is.  I actually had been modifying several of my patches last night using the Parametric EQ.  I tripped over it by accident because of a patch I had made for Dreams and for the life of me couldn't tell why the base patch for Dreams stood out more in the mix more than my other base patches.  I was going a little OCD when I noticed the Dreams patch had the Parametric EQ after the speaker.  So I added the Parametric EQ to most of my other patches using a FS to activate upon request.  And the guitar(s) and amp/speaker setting(s) I use demand level and frequency adjustments.

 

Thanks again for pointing this out to the group

 

Dennis

 

21 hours ago, arislaf said:

Great tip, JCM 800 came to life after it as a metal amp of post production! Thanks !!

I find it especially useful with humbuckers.  I find it has a more noticeable effect with clean and light breakup tones.  It can make the guitar sound pretty thin sometimes but when all you are getting out of an amp is mud then this does the trick.  Also, if this makes the sound too thin I will use a darker IR/cab to bring the meat back in without the mud.

 

I've found I'm able to use the same preset with multiple guitars by adjusting the gains on that Parametric EQ to suit the guitar I'm using.  Much faster than making presets for every guitar.

[otnooishphoo]

On 4/9/2019 at 8:24 PM, Maidlife said:

Tried a replica of everything....if its close, I get it...but not even close

 

Im playing thought headphones (he is also playing thought headphones and recording through USB),. I have the volume knob at max cause I control the preset volume from the ch volume on the amp. So its just Guitar - > Helix -> headphones...let me know if Im missing some information. Thanks.

 

 

Uh, you do realize that that Channel Volume on the amp model is part of the amps gain stage right?

 

[xmacvicar]

1 minute ago, otnooishphoo said:

 

Uh, you do realize that that Channel Volume on the amp model is part of the amps gain stage right?

 

I don't think that's correct? It just controls the preset volume when recording or outputting 

[rd2rk]

35 minutes ago, xmacvicar said:

I don't think that's correct? It just controls the preset volume when recording or outputting 

 

Actually, I think it controls the amps output to the devices downstream - delays and whatnot, but you're correct that it's not part of the actual amp's gain staging. Some people use it to control final output, but it COULD overdrive the downstream devices. I COULD be wrong about that, but I don't think so. I use the final output block for preset leveling.

[Verne-Bunsen]

13 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

Actually, I think it controls the amps output to the devices downstream - delays and whatnot, but you're correct that it's not part of the actual amp's gain staging. Some people use it to control final output, but it COULD overdrive the downstream devices. I COULD be wrong about that, but I don't think so. I use the final output block for preset leveling.

This is my understanding and experience: Channel Volume adjusts overall volume from the amp block but without affecting tone. Similar to an attenuator between the power amp and speaker on a tube amp.

[datacommando]

9 hours ago, otnooishphoo said:

 

Uh, you do realize that that Channel Volume on the amp model is part of the amps gain stage right?

 

 

Well, yes that’s true with some of the models in the Helix, but I refer you back to the video in the first post. The original post contains examples of Helix factory basic setting for several amps with no modifications other than the addition of a high/low cut block and a room reverb after the amp, then later a Tube Screamer (on default setting) in front. The OP’s supplied clips on those exact settings are dull and lifeless and that is what the issue is - why the is there such a big difference?

 

If you like, yes you can crank up the channel volume or turn up the the big volume knob on top of the Helix, but I don’t think that is the point here. You even quoted his comment - “Tried a replica of everything...” . He even went to a music store and tried his PRS Custom 24 and cable with a brand new Helix, same result, then he tried one of the stores brand new Strat models - similar results, even though single coil were used. File under weirdness, because if it wasn’t for his audio clips you could say it was his imagination (or ears), but it’s very odd.

[BBD_123]

10 hours ago, datacommando said:

Well, yes that’s true with some of the models in the Helix,

 

Is it? I was under the impression that (as others have said ) the Channel Vol simply controlled the output gain of the amp block. Master Vol controls the amp power stage gain. If I've got this muddled, please correct me as I've assumed it from day one...

[rd2rk]

38 minutes ago, BBD_123 said:

 

Is it? I was under the impression that (as others have said ) the Channel Vol simply controlled the output gain of the amp block. Master Vol controls the amp power stage gain. If I've got this muddled, please correct me as I've assumed it from day one...

 

I believe that you are correct. It can SEEM that the amp's gain is affected if your amp's settings are all up high and increasing the Channel Volume overdrives something that follows the amp, or increases the volume such that the tone settings in one of those devices become more pronounced.

 

Unfortunately, nowhere in the Helix manual is the Channel Volume fully explained. Some of that confusion could be from this passage:

 

"If you're looking for a gritty boost for a solo, instead of adding a Distortion block, try assigning a footswitch to increase both the Mid and Channel Volume parameters of an Amp+Cab, Amp, or Preamp block"

 

That could be taken to imply that Channel Volume affects the amp's tone, when what they're really saying is that by boosting the mids you affect the tone, and a slight Channel Volume boost helps it "cut through" for the solo. A better idea would be to increase the mids and add the volume boost at the output block so as not to affect the gain staging of any of the post amp effects.

 

Hopefully, the next time the manual is updated (when v3.0 comes out is what I heard) they'll remedy this, as it causes much confusion.

[BBD_123]

25 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

It can SEEM that the amp's gain is affected if your amp's settings are all up high and increasing the Channel Volume overdrives something that follows the amp, or increases the volume such that the tone settings in one of those devices become more pronounced.

 

That was my experience, and prompted me to be careful about Channel Vol as some effects don't like being shouted at by the previous block in the chain :-)

[datacommando]

1 hour ago, BBD_123 said:

 

Is it? I was under the impression that (as others have said ) the Channel Vol simply controlled the output gain of the amp block. Master Vol controls the amp power stage gain. If I've got this muddled, please correct me as I've assumed it from day one...

 

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  D:::::D    D:::::D O::::::O   O::::::O  H:::::H     H:::::H   !!! I
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DDDDDDDDDDDDD             OOOOOOOOO     HHHHHHHHH     HHHHHHHHH !!! 

 

Mea culpa! I am not worthy! 

 

Although the comment doesn’t really address or answer the original poster’s question does it?

 

[BBD_123]

7 minutes ago, datacommando said:

Mea culpa! I am not worthy! 

 

Although the comment doesn’t really address or answer the original poster’s question does it?

 

 

No apology necessary :-) I was just a bit puzzled. And no, unfortunately it doesn't help the OP. Although given what's been explored on the thread, it may be that the OP has a faulty LT unit. I wondered if it was the guitar, but he said he used other guitars and had the same issue so... :-( dodgy unit.

[Kilrahi]

Just now, BBD_123 said:

 

No apology necessary :-) I was just a bit puzzled. And no, unfortunately it doesn't help the OP. Although given what's been explored on the thread, it may be that the OP has a faulty LT unit. I wondered if it was the guitar, but he said he used other guitars and had the same issue so... :-( dodgy unit.

 

It can't be that because he said he went to a different Helix and it did the same thing. 

[rd2rk]

8 minutes ago, datacommando said:

Although the comment doesn’t really address or answer the original poster’s question does it?

 

OP's problem seems to have gone from "no distortion" to "dull and lifeless". I got nothing on that. Hoping to hear back from him on whether jonandtice's eq suggestions helped him out with that.

[BBD_123]

29 minutes ago, Kilrahi said:

 

It can't be that because he said he went to a different Helix and it did the same thing. 

 

You're right, he did. So perhaps rd2rk is on the right track. Subjectivity is king when in comes to sensory inputs :-)

[datacommando]

12 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

OP's problem seems to have gone from "no distortion" to "dull and lifeless". I got nothing on that. Hoping to hear back from him on whether jonandtice's eq suggestions helped him out with that.

 

I see what you mean, but that came about from his comments about lacking distortion as shown in the video example of the basic factory settings on several amps. When the OP supplied his own audio clips of the identical configurations, “dull and lifeless” seemed to be  the general consensus of opinion from people who had listened to them. The OP has tried another Helix both with his own PRS and cables, also with a new Strat - same results.

 

Other forum users have tried repeating the things shown in the original video and are able to replicate, or a least get very close to the video examples. I checked out the same settings and was happy enough with what I was hearing from a set of vintage single coils. Maybe not exactly the same, but, hey, close enough for rock ‘n’ roll. 

 

The guy knows that he can modify any of the tones using EQ, compression etc, and has been happy enough to do that for almost a year - he loves his Helix LT. This came about because of what should have been a straight out of can, basic amp set up, did not appear to give the same result.

 

The one thing that I think could be a factor in this is, we are dealing with a YouTube video - so, it may well have been subjected to a little extra compression, post recording. That might give it that little bit more bite that makes the difference. I don’t know - I’m not a scientist, but  I thought the idea of experiments was to combine the same ingredients and get the same result, time after time. There again, bakers don’t always get identical cakes from the same stuff.

 

 

[willjrock]

On 4/12/2019 at 8:42 PM, rd2rk said:

I COULD be wrong about that, but I don't think so. I use the final output block for preset leveling.

You are absolutely correct. Ive tested and it works exactly as you describe. 

 

Ill often use this control to level a patch if the only thing im running after the amp block is an IR.....or sometimes i dont care if im hitting the delay or verb a little harder, so ill use it.....but if you want to keep your patch sounding identical except a little louder, youll have to go to the end of the path to add volume, whether it be using the out block or a gain block at one of the later stages of the path.

[bodine5150]

Bumping this because I'm having the exact problem as the OP.  The only way I can get good gain is by putting a pedal in front,even cranking to 10 is not enough. I've done everything in the thread,turned off global EQ,factory reset,pad on/off,no noise gate.

 

Best example I can give is the video below. Jump to 6:10 where he plays the intro to Atomic Punk by Van Halen. His sound is very gainy,wet and scratchy. When I do it,it sounds like I turned the volume on his guitar down to 5.  

 

Here is my example,exact same settings. I am pressing VERY hard too,about as hard as i can just to get this sound.

 

 

 

[rd2rk]

If you attach the preset, someone can look at it. Without the preset, it's like trying to tweak the sound of a fart on the moon. :-)

 

[bodine5150]

Its in the youtube video. Here's the same for the stomp

 

 

VH One Stomp JH.hlx

[qwerty42]

9 hours ago, bodine5150 said:

Its in the youtube video. Here's the same for the stomp

 

 

VH One Stomp JH.hlx 3.8 kB · 2 downloads

 

Here, give this a try. I compared the Helix Floor preset and your Stomp preset and there were a lot of differences, especially with the stereo routing and imaging. Note I only matched the first snapshot (edit: it looks like it's actually Snapshot 2 for the Stomp preset, which loads first with the preset), I didn't check the others. A/B'ing the floor preset and this stomp preset sounds identical to me, and it sounds like the youtube vid you linked.

VH One Stomp v2.hlx