FlyingsCool

I read through all these hints, and wonder what tones you are searching for and what guitars you guys are using? I see one person say he adds pad to 4 out of his 5 guitars... And I wonder why? Are they active pickups, passive pickups, are you doing some chunka chunka metal sound or are you a jazz clean player. Hints without context can be misleading and cause all kinds of problems for people who are trying to apply a hint meant for one context to something completely different. If we're going to post hints, I highly recommend posting what hardware / guitar(s) you are using and its pickups and config, and an audio clip showing how the hint is applicable. I realize how much work that is. But as easy as Helix is to use, the complexity of it and the dependencies are mind boggling enough without having us chase our tails down dark tunnels only to find out we were digging for days for nothing.

So, I've been whining for quite a while about how my Shure SRH840 44ohm headphones sound like poop with when connected directly to Helix. As a matter of fact, they were so bad I hadn't tried them in a long time and they actually sound better now than I remember them.... Not sure if that's a function of the upgrades since I last tried to use them. But stuff like fuzz pedals still blow them out, make the tone seem to actually have dropouts. I did pick up a pair of Beyerdynamics HD770 Pro 250 ohm cans. While they seem, boxier maybe, certainly less detailed in the mids than the 840's, they do react better when connected directly to the Helix and are sort of usable for tone shaping kind of. Anyway, I was perusing THE THREAD for impedance and came across this... perhaps I had missed it in the past, or it didn't sink in, but... be that as it may, Digital Igloo and Line 6 addressed this concept a long, long time ago... So here you go for all people wondering about using headphones with Helix... a quote from the incomparable Digital Igloo

Here's a response from Ben Adrian regarding input impedance and Helix Native and Helix " And from Digital Igloo And from the release notes for 2.0 (dt)

Found this... Haven't read it yet http://community.avid.com/blogs/avid/archive/2010/04/06/the-truth-about-true-z.aspx

Actually, I would bet they've definitely thought about your suggestion, but chose against it for the sake of simplicity, but that it still is possible to implement. I got this chart from the POD HD Manual, I'm betting Helix's effects are set up in a similar manner. In fact I think I've seen a Helix chart kicking around, but didn't take the time to dig deeply for it... I was surprised only one of the Wah pedals had a modified input impedance, I thought they were low across the board pretty much...

Transparent or not, each block has to have a specified input impedance, I'm imagining they choose 1M for those. I have seen effect impedance charts floating around that should give some idea of the differences across different effects. When the input Guitar In-Z is set to auto, the guitar input will change when you swap different effects with different impedances. I'm imagining no matter what, as the impedance changes, you could hear an effect. I have not done any testing, just basing this thought on what I've read and thinking about it logically. Every block has an impedance affect I'm imagining.

It's in the input block 4th knob "Guitar In-Z", normally set to auto, probably want to set it to 1M, but others like it lower, especially when using single coil guitars. Yes, I have yet to bond with the fuzzes like I did with my Tech 21 Boost Fuzz and various Big Muff pedals and emulators I have used. But I can't say I've really sat down and tweaked with them yet either. Stuff like the Aribitrator I have found to be really spiky, with almost dropouts between spikes, and they really blow out my headphones (not as bad through my L2t and LSR-5's), and I tend to like a smoother sound. But, again, I really haven't tried to tweak them yet.

Calling @phil_m?

This would be my expected, and hoped for, interaction experience. If it's on auto, I'd expect that whether the first block is on OR off, that it would still drive the impendance. Otherwise, the impedance might change when I switch it off and off. It's also how it would work in the real world most likely... Whether the pedal was on or off, the impedance should be constant. The first active block being the same though and showing differences.... That's weird. IR's, I don't know how I feel about that one... That I would think should be true bypass when off.

Ok, I did some research in THE THREAD, and came up with all this..... Benadrian The Master Volume, generally, is in between the pre-amp and the power amp. The phase inverter, for all practical purposes, operates as part of the power amp as a whole. This is because amps with negative feedback insert that signal into the phase inverter, so the phase inverter tube and the power tubes operate in a state of equilibrium. Saying the master "Adjusts the amount of power amp distortion" is a bit clunky, yes. It might be more clear if it said something like, "the master volume reduces the signal level going into the power amp circuit. This matches the actual Master Volume of the modeled amps when those amps have a master volume control. If an amp does not have a master volume control, then it reduces the signal level between the preamp circuit and the power amp circuit. Setting it at 10 is no level reduction and matches the non-master volume amp in the real world." So, in short, you turn an amp up loud and the preamp and the power amp will distort. If you want to quiet the amp down or reduce power amp distortion, you turn down the master volume control. The amp model should behave in the exact same way. Sometimes I like to think of a master volume as a ratio control for preamp and power amp distortion. When an amp is turned up, everything distorts. When the master volume is at maximum, the power amp will distort when pused by the preamp, and this is the maximum power amp to preamp distortion ratio. as the master is reduced, the ratio will decrease. As very low levels of the master, the preamp can be distorting a whole lot, and the power amp to be clean. I don't know if this will make sense to everyone, but it's how my brain sometimes works. Another good thing to remember, we matched the knob positions in the amp models. If anyone here has used a Deluxe Reverb you know that after about 4-5, the amp stops getting louder. Once the amp goes past 7-8 it can get pretty ugly. The model behaves the same. Once the drive passes 40% or so, it'll never be a clean amp. Cranking the drive will never give a tight distortion, it'll blow out the power amp. Some think this sounds awesome, some think it sounds ugly. That's totally subjective. But if you are using a model and you want more drive, think of how that model would sound when cranked. Sometimes it sounds a lot better to put a drive pedal in front of an amp than to push an amp to its limits Oh, and one case where the master volume is different is the Hiwatt. That amp has an additional gain stage between the master volume and the phase inverter. The model matches this trait. Wow, I just kept writing. Hope you all got through this. Cheers! Phil_m I think you meant to say "after about 4-5 the amp stops getting louder..." That is definitely true of my DRRI, and actually I think that after 3 or 3.5, it may stop getting louder. There's definitely not a ton of clean headroom there. I think it's kind ironic, in a way, because I think many people associated Fender amps with great clean tones, and yes, I do love the clean tone of my DRRI and my Princeton, but there is a relatively narrow range in which that they are truly clean. With humbuckers or any higher output guitar, it seems that it's almost impossible for me to get a true clean tone with either of those amps without lowering the guitar volume. Also, I used to own a Vox AC15 - one of the newer ones, not a vintage one - and hearing a recording of what it sounded like mic’d was actually the thing that pushed me over the edge to get rid of it. I just felt it had a certain raspy quality when pushed that I didn't really like. I think the fact that so many people associate The Edge with the AC30, many people assume that Vox amps are clean. To me, that's kind of not their natural state, for lack of a better term. I think of them now more as raspy blues amp that can clean up under the right conditions. Benadrian Wow, what a bad typo. Phil_M is correct, and I corrected my original message. I was talking about playing through the actual amp in my previous scenario. For amps that don't have a Master Volume control, the Drive control on page 1 represents that amp's volume knob. Here's a list of all the models. http://line6.com/data/6/0a06439cc0ef55b13d89a4aa8/application/pdf The WhoWatt has a master volume IRL. Then none of the models in the list have a Master until the 2204. 2204 on all have Master volumes IRL. As for bass amps, all the Mesa models and the GK models have Master volumes IRL, the Ampeg's do not have them. Cheers! mbenigni benadrian said: ↑ Saying the master "Adjusts the amount of power amp distortion" is a bit clunky, yes. It might be more clear if it said something like, "the master volume reduces the signal level going into the power amp circuit. This matches the actual Master Volume of the modeled amps when those amps have a master volume control. If an amp does not have a master volume control, then it reduces the signal level between the preamp circuit and the power amp circuit. Setting it at 10 is no level reduction and matches the non-master volume amp in the real world." I'm going to be a little pedantic here, just because I want to be 100% clear: the Master Volume reduces the signal level when it is turned down. It's not inverted like a Vox AC30 presence control or something. benadrian said: ↑ Sometimes I like to think of a master volume as a ratio control for preamp and power amp distortion. When an amp is turned up, everything distorts. When the master volume is at maximum, the power amp will distort when pused by the preamp, and this is the maximum power amp to preamp distortion ratio. as the master is reduced, the ratio will decrease. As very low levels of the master, the preamp can be distorting a whole lot, and the power amp to be clean. I don't know if this will make sense to everyone, but it's how my brain sometimes works. And similarly, we're talking about a product of pre-amp and power amp distortion here rather than a ratio, no? In any case, this is all great information and I appreciate getting it from the guy who would know better than anyone what's happening under the hood. I'm sure learning a lot this morning... MKB Being an owner of an original 5F6A Bassman, it can be set to be one of the best crossover distortion generators you'll ever find. Power tubes can clip rather harshly, and the speakers are relied upon to filter out the harshness; the Jensen 10's are a bit bright sounding and they do not filter out the crunch as much as you might want. But the tweed Bassman has a sweet spot right before it starts crunching, where it sounds like the sweetest clean amp with a compressor, and when slightly distorted, it will sing very nicely. The earlier posted video of the real Bassman showed these tones early on. When the tweed Bassman starts crunching, it can get muddy and indistinct along with the crossover grunge. I haven't played a Helix yet, but the HD amps all sound to me like they were biased cold when modeled. Some of the HD models had so much crossover distortion they were unusable (the non-amp pack AC30's for example). The earlier clip of the Helix Bassman patch did not sound to me like a real Bassman, but I haven't heard any modelers that do. In fact the Kemper doesn't do it justice either, at least none of the profiles I've heard. benadrian hendrik7 said: ↑ That might apply to the other end of the spectrum but not when you're lowering the master volume. I'm talking bedroom level even. Take my Ac15 for example. If I turn up the gain on either channel and lower the master volume it never cleans up like it does on the Helix. This is a special case. I'm not sure what AC15 you have, but the one we modeled was this circuit: http://www.drtube.com/schematics/vox/ac15fact.gif There was no master volume on the original circuit, and there is only one preamp stage before the signal hits the power amp. Normally, we put the master volume right before the power amp, but if we did this then we have the Drive knob and the Master Volume knob in pretty much the same place in the modeled amp circuit. So, for the AC-15, the master volume is post-phase-inverter in the full amp model. This allos the user to use the Drive knob to hit just the Phase Inverter tubes harder. However, in this amp the power tubes can distort a LOT. When this is combined with the fact that the preamp doesn't distort a whole lot on its own, it can produce a situation where turning the preamp up and the master volume down will clean up the sound quite a bit. The preamp barely distorts and the power amp distorts a TON. This is the opposite of many amps where the preamp is designed to distort and, while the power amp can distort as well, most of the crunch comes from smashing the preamp. Cheers! Ben mbenigni said: ↑ I'm going to be a little pedantic here, just because I want to be 100% clear: the Master Volume reduces the signal level when it is turned down. It's not inverted like a Vox AC30 presence control or something. And similarly, we're talking about a product of pre-amp and power amp distortion here rather than a ratio, no? Part 1: Correct, up (clockwise) is more signal level. Down (counter clockwise) is less signal level. Part 2: I'm not sure I follow what you mean with your wording. If I'm understanding right, then you're correct, the Master is not a literal "ratio" control. It's a level control placed in between the preamp part of the modeling and the power amp part of the modeling. The result (or product) is changes in power amp distortion (if the preamp is set loud enough to make power amp distortion happen). Cheers! LeicaBossNJ said: ↑ May I ask a very technical question... For amps that are cathode biased, what does the BIAS adjustment do? I'm really trying to get my mind around the concept that there are adjustments on certain amp models that just don't seem physically possible, given the amps' architecture. For example, we have a Gain, Channel and Master Volume as well as bass, mid and treble on the NRML channel of a Deluxe Reverb. The real amp has only a master, bass and treble. I'm very used to the amp and how the controls interact and get get the hang of adjusting the HELIX model to behave like the "donor" amp. I'll do my best to answer this while also playing it safe and not giving away anything that might get me a stern talking-to. Bias on cathode biased amps. Many people have an association that cathode biased = class A. This is usually not true. However, most cathode biased amps are running the tubes hotter than most fixed bias amps. The Bias control affects the balance of distortion between saturation and cutoff in the power tubes. Proportion changes depending on the idling state of a power tube; if it's idling hot, then there will be more saturation and less cutoff, and if it's cold there will be more cutoff and less saturation. The bias control affects where the idling state of the tube is "located"; if it's hot or cold. Another way of putting it might be that we can virtually change the value of the cathode bias resistor in a cathode bias amp. All these extra knobs. If an amp has a small number of knobs, then we will invent the knobs in a way that makes the most sense to us. First, let me say that the Channel Volume (ChVol) knob is ALWAYS a flat response, post amp model level control. This is like a fader on a console. It's in the amp model, but it's not tied to the tonality of the amp model. It's how I level different presets so that they play well together. The Drive knob corresponds with the Drive or Gain knob on master volume amps. With amps that don't have a master volume, it corresponds with the Volume knob. So, on the Deluxe model that you reference, the Drive knob is the Volume control on the front panel. The Master Volume knobs in Helix map to the Master volume knobs on amps with Master Volume controls. If the amp does not have a master volume control, then we add one similar to where an amp tech might add one to an amp if the amp was having one installed. In the case of the Deluxe, this is between the preamp and the power amp. This can be thought of as a passive volume reduction. Master @ 10 is like it's not in the circuit. As it is turned down, the level from the preamp into the power amp is reduced. Tone controls. We try to make them fit the character of the amp. In the Deluxe Reverb, the tone controls are exactly like that or a twin reverb except the 10k linear midrange knob is replaced with a fixed 6.8k resistor. If you want to match the model to the actual amp, set the model between 6.1 and 6.8 (values drift in the real amps. My idea, though, was to make the midrange knob on the deluxe behave like the midrange knob on other black-face fender circuits that have a midrange control. In other amps, tone controls gets invented on a per-amp basis. In the tweed champ, the bass and treble are after the amp modeling, but the midrange control is between the two preamp gain stages. The midrange knob can become a cool drive feature. In some amps, the invented controls come between the preamp and the power amp. In short, we tried to make it sound good, and we tried to respect what is happening in similar classic amp circuits. Cheers! Mogmog said: ↑ Anybody notice the Cali Rectifire Model has an odd behaviour with the Master Parameter? The default 30% Master value sound good, but as soon as you increase this value, you get less volume. Checked this out. Found a master volume compensation* taper that I didn't like. I adjusted to make it more smooth. This should appear in some future update. Thanks for the heads up! Cheers! Ben * You may be wondering what the heck is "master volume compensation"? We found that sometimes when turning down the Master Volume deep edit parameter, the amp model got TOO quiet. It's totally logical to think, "isn't that's what it's SUPPOSED to do?" Yep. However, one of the big reasons many of us have chosen amp modelers is to not be as loud as the actual amp. When a low master volume setting is combined with a not blazing loud amp model, it does have the psychoacoustic effect of having the amp sound weak and distant. So, on many amp models, we turn up a post-amp model volume level when master volume (which is between the preamp model and the power amp model) is very low. It's automatic level compensation, and it is HOPEFULLY invisible. In this case, it wasn't, but it was an easy fix and I happened to see the initial post. Thanks again! Johnny Ninefingers Steve Dallas said: ↑ Before I get to my actual answer, let me say that the gain structures in the Helix do not exactly match those in my real amps. The Helix's Marshall 2204 JCM800, for example, has about 4x the gain that my real early 80s example has--as if theirs has been modded. The Matchless DC-30 in the Helix also has more gain than mine, but also compresses much more quickly. I can play with the gain and master controls to get them very close, however. The way it is supposed to work is: Channel volume does not affect tone or gain. It is there for overall level control. Master volume acts like the master on the real amp. On a real amp, it controls both overall loudness and power amp saturation. If the real amp does not have a master, it should be set to 10 in theory. Gain controls preamp gain and should act like the same on the real amp. If the amp does not have a master, it controls volume and gain. What really happens is: Channel volume works as it should. Use it control overall level. Master controls how much power amp saturation takes places. With the master set low and the gain set high, you are hearing mostly preamp overdrive. With the master set high and the gain set low, you are hearing mostly power amp overdrive. The behavior of this control is not as predictable as it should be. It takes some experimentation with each amp to find its sweet spot. Instead of setting the master to 10 on a non-MV amp, try 6 or 8. Gain controls preamp gain. Depending on the master volume situation, it may have a large effect on the amount of overdrive that is heard as noted above. Because these are models in a box that do not cause your ears to bleed when you crank them up, they sound different than the real thing. Loudness changes how we perceive sound--even how much overdrive we think we hear. It is easy to want to crank an amp to its limits when it is safely inside a modeler, but in many cases, we would never do that in real life. Pretty much. My completely original single channel Marshall JCM800 50wt head has about a quarter of the gain of the modelled version. But you don't notice it at the 'ringing and singing' volume because it's really bleeding loud and the guitar in your hand is alive. You can't quite do that with a box. But you don't need to. The box tames the requirements for huge volumes to get tones only half of which ever made it onto tape or disk: we cut so much top end off everything before it even came to mastering. Drummers used to complain that their cymbals weren't fizzy like that IRL. Bass drums sounding like they were a wet cardboard box being hit with a mallet wrapped in a wet blanket. People forget. Then they mistake cause and effect. The pre-amp, master and channel volume explanation in Helix was good and succinct too. There is another Guitar page where you can give people credit for wisdom. This reason for this extended compliment is because this site, wonderful in so many other ways, doesn't allow me that option. [Tips hat and tugs forelock.]

In your comment "Note 1: Real amps with Volume means Gain in Helix. Volume in Helix is like a mixer to compensate final modeled output level (obviusly it doesn't exist in any of the real amps)." Do you mean: 1. In "Real Amps" with Volume or Gain knobs, the knob is the same as "Drive" control in Helix amps? I have not seen a "Gain" control on any of the Helix amp controls. Is this knob typically a preamp volume knob or power amp volume knob in the real amps? Where does the "Drive" control in Helix amps sit (preamp or power amp)? and did you mean: 2. The Volume control in Helix amp controls does not affect tone of the amp. It is basically another gain stage after the power amp to help balance amp volume between patches.? Did I get this right, and can you please add a little more description?

I'm confused... Yes, the Helix is not integrated with the DT amp series. There is I believe, however, a DT Amp template that shows how to control the DT through midi commands. I don't know if that works over L6 Link (probably a good idea to fully explain what you mean, btw, I'm just assuming by L6 you meant L6 Link). I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "drive" and "Eq" knobs altering your presets, or what you mean by "use it like HD used to" (which it can't directly do, but can by midi commands) and "just want to have a power amp and cab". Do you mean you want to use the preamps in Helix and send that signal to the DT and use the DT power amp and cab, bypassing the DT preamps? I'm sure that can be done, I just don't know how, and I it takes some finagling. But the info is out there.

I'm a little confused... Are you linking the volume knob of the Helix to the signal out to the Friedman? And you're saying that you when the signal out was at 50% or so it was fizzy, but as you cranked it to 80% or 90% the fizziness went away? Does the Friedman have a volume control? Did you try setting the Helix Volume Knob to max, then control max volume at the Friedman? Would that improve things further? I am by NO MEANS an expert, but it's always been my thought that I want the max volume coming out of my device, and I control the gain at the "board" or output device. I'm still trying to figure out the link between Drive, Master, and Volume on the amps and how to best get them set. Live I'm planning on balancing whatever presets I'll be using to each other and unlinking the Volume knob from whatever my outputs I'm using. This should basically then be outputting to FOH and monitors at Unity from the Helix... I'm sure there are others out there with much more experience and knowledge than me who have this or other ideas on this subject. I may be doing my first live gig with the Helix next week, so it's crunch time on getting my rig set up appropriately... O_O

I'm pretty sure this is typical of Fuzz boxes. Seems to me if input impedance is set to auto, Helix sets the impedance based on the first pedal in the chain. I do believe that there's a post from Digital Igloo either around here or in THE THREAD at TGP where he outlined the impedances of the various pedals, and the Fuzz sets it quite low. Try changing the input impedance to 1M (although I'm not sure what that will do to the Fuzz) and see what happens... (p.s. You may want to mark the thread as answered...)

As others have said, gotta have a back up ready to go, especially in a situation like that. Garbage owns 18 helices, backups for each system on stage, and then some units for the studio. Even if it's not another Helix, gotta have a backup of some sort that's ready to go. It's electronic. It could have been anything. If no liquids, it could have been a surge, somebody unplugged something on the circuit or did something on the same circuit with another piece of equipment and it shot through the Helix, or, it could be a bad Helix. Of the 10's of thousands of posts I've read about the Helix, this is the first instance I've seen of one spontaneously combusting. But that's not to say it's not possible it had a bad power supply in it. How long has he owned and used it? If he just bought it and only has a few hours on it, it's possible. But if he has several hundred hours on it, seems hard to believe it would pick that moment to bite the dust without some impetus from some electrical surge... In any case, I'm sure Line 6 will help you out with the unit. Sorry it happened though, that sucks. Glad he at least got some gear to keep going.

Once you get a tone you like, it might also be good to add a backing track of drums and bass etc. to go along with it to see how it really sits in the mix as well.

I think you'll find your results will vary depending on the amps and effects you are using. In most situations, I have found the positional relationship of Volume pedal in the chain does work as advertised. But some amps don't seem to respond as well as others to "cleaning up" let's say. And, like you, I also found less of an effect into a Teemah, as well. It seemed as tho the Teemah on was just pushing the amp, and the Teemah did not seem to clean up much with change of either Guitar volume or Volume pedal. (I did not do an exhaustive test, just sort of noticed the effect in passing while testing some of the factory presets (where they always put the volume pedal in front for some reason)). Did you test with the compressor off? (Isn't the compressor going to change the character of the input to the point using the the volume pedal after it will act more like a volume change?) Did you notice a different reaction using your guitar volume knob vs the volume pedal? Did you try the logarithmic setting on the volume pedal? (I'm no expert, but I don't think the guitar volume pots are linear??)

Awesome... Thank you

Really? Nobody understands what "Duty Cycle" does/means? Eek

Bump... Yeah, what's duty cycle? Are they out of sync if you use tap tempo options?

Yes, I've used all those pieces of equipment before (ME with some vibration testing experience). Granted, I don't have the experience you do, but I'm with @Redmonda. I just don't see a difference between the two signals other than video reproduction blockiness and light bloom perhaps. And, mathematically, never think of noise as being due to any stairsteppiness. There can be the quantization noise he explains due to round-off error and jitter and million other things, but no stairstep exists. It's a figment of our imagination. The D->A conversion creates a smooth analog signal. There can be rippling due to the bandwidth limiting, again as he explains, but that's not in that signal as far as I know. I don't think the sine wave input has any information outside the bandwidth that the signal is limited to.... But now I'm going beyond my knowledge...

I'm confused. What noise at 5:58? You will not be able to see noise in the Oscope, not in the display mode he is using. You'll want the spectrum analyzer output to really see any noise or harmonic content other than the wave you see on the Oscope. Plus at 5:58, he clearly states there are no stair steps. But to answer your question, As he points out at at 2:26, there IS noise in the original analog signal, with a floor of about -90 dB to the original signal, and some harmonic distortion about -70 dB lower than the original signal. I'm assuming it's just electrical noise leaking / errors in the signal generator.

Nope, it's not possible for stair stepping noise. It is possible to change the waveform depending on how you bandlimit the signal, as he showed, but stairstep noise is a total myth. The only stairstepping you will see will be due to the monitor, not what's really in the signal. It's an analog signal... period (pun intended) You can tell that there is no audible noise outside of the noise floor from the spectrum display. If there were any other signals (i.e. that stairstepping you thought you could see) you would see peaks at frequencies other than the peak of the original sine signal at volumes higher than the noise floor. He demonstrated this when he discussed dithering and showed harmonic distortion. But, at 16 bits, that noise is pretty much inaudible with decent A/D -> D/A

Yeah, my second question was supposed to be directed to the OP

Sounds like the signal has already been compressed then before it got into the loop?