How many HD users will actually upgrade to helix

[katiekerry]

For $1500, Helix is going to have to blow away the sound of my HD500X into the L2. I'd say the HD500x into L2 is about 85% as good as HD into DT25. With the bonus of sounding better with acoustic JTV models.

 

All the other routing options, etc won't mean anything if the sound and feel of the amps isn't a significant upgrade over HD509x

Yeah I agree with you on that a grand difference is tough to swallow..  yeah the interface seems amazing but the rest is just seemingly minor improvements over the 500 series. ( take in mind that's from what you can tell through online videos and such)..  It could change once I actually play one..

[Tboneous]

Hi! I have not tried them as pairs in stereo. I use DT 50 with the band, and DT 25 at home. If you use Line6 link I don't think it matter witch on is first. What is your experience by running both at the same time?

Running them both is awesome! My go to amp model is the Dr. Z for the 50 and the Blackface for the 25. I pinch the signal at each amp. Run my fx before each amp with volume pedals that control each amp. Fx loop has a Zoom Multistomp, a Eventide H9 Max, Boss Feedback/Sustainer and a EH Super Ego. That keeps my DSP limit in check.

 

To keep this a bit more on topic, I would love to have Helix just for the multiple fx loops! Say good-bye to DSP issues FOREVER!

 

Please make it work with my DT's! PLEEEEAAASSE!

[baron55]

I will wait until the youtube videos and real user reviews come in. That will be the real test. The price doesn't scare me, and I seriously doubt it will drop like a lot of people are hoping for.

 

The Helix unit is in a different product market. Thus the quality and price. People are shelling out up to 3 grand for Axe FX units Lne 6 may be counting on getting a great product out for slightly less but with good enough sound quality.

 

For many years Line 6 has soild low cost packed FX units that relly catred to entry level musicians, like the Spyder and POD series. They have done well, but that also has given them a "low cost for kiddies" reputation deserved or not.

 

The Helix hopefully will put them a new market and get the more respect with the higher end tone snob crowd.

[duncann]

Line 6 also has way better distribution than the other higher end units. I really despise the idea of having to get an "invitation" to purchase something.

[bartnettle1]

Much depends on the monitoring device so AB tests will need to be spot on as even as possible.

 

You get the Stores doing reviews but at the end of the day they want to sell the product.

 

You get new users who aren't about to invalidate their purchasing decision so things might get prejudice on some demos.

 

Even now I have no doubts the Helix sounds better and is feature packed.and could rival Axe and KEmper.

 

Wait and see

[katiekerry]

The Helix hopefully will put them a new market and get the more respect with the higher end tone snob crowd.

I honestly don't think that will ever happen they are tone snobs for a reason ( lack of ability to change with technology).  I have never met a gear snob that used any sort of modeling technology.  They want more of the point to point wiring, old out of date components. ( don't get me wrong allot of that one trick pony stuff sounds amazing).

 

Much depends on the monitoring device so AB tests will need to be spot on as even as possible.

 

You get the Stores doing reviews but at the end of the day they want to sell the product.

 

You get new users who aren't about to invalidate their purchasing decision so things might get prejudice on some demos.

 

Even now I have no doubts the Helix sounds better and is feature packed.and could rival Axe and KEmper.

 

Wait and see

Yeah I hear you even when they do demos to compare their own products they will run the current equipment they are promoting through about 10 grand worth of mixing equipment.  And tweak the hell out of the unit to make it sound as good as possible.  But the old model they use stock presets and  run direct or use camera mic to capture the sound..  which do you think will sound better..

[Tboneous]

I really don't think sound quality is going to be an issue. Helix is going to sound good. Despite the people who swear we are all suckers for liking it, the POD HD 500(x) sounds great!  Line 6 has the sounding good thing pretty much figured out.

 

The key is and Line 6 sometimes struggles with: Out of the box, will Helix give you what you need so you can record with ease, gig with ease; does it have a work flow that keeps you in the creative zone or are you going to be lost in windows and the world of tweaking. Is it glitch and bug free? Are the volumes going to be all over the place? Sure its going to sound fantastic in the studio, but what about through an amp?

 

As much as I love my Dream Rig set-up now, I know for a while there, I was ready to throw it out the window on more than one occasion. The learning curve was steep with my stuff. Now that I know how to work my rig, it's not a problem.

 

How about for Helix? Can I plug it in and go? Cause if it's anything like the Dream Rig in terms of ease of dialing up a tone, out of the box, when you aren't familiar with the unit then the answer is gong to be no.

 

Won't discourage me from getting one. The only thing that will discourage me from getting Helix is the lack of DT compatibility. Can a brotha' get an AMEN!

[cruisinon2]

I really despise the idea of having to get an "invitation" to purchase something.

Lol...I totally agree, but from a marketing perspective, they are just following a proven model. It simply depends on your target audience. If you're after the guy who thinks that going to a restaurant without valet parking is "uncivilized", then the whole "invitation" thing makes perfect sense. There are legions of people out there who define themselves by the things they own. They get off on the exclusivity, and for the most part, they've got money. Sending them an invitation to purchase the product that you're hawking at 3800% above the manufacturing cost makes them feel "special".

[aerosol_d7]

very wise thinkin...

The first time I plugged my guitar in pod hd, the hard gate was useless. I was wondering who would use it. Finally I find out the firmware was out to date. Very old firmware. I updated it and everything was fine. Almost, new bugs and new releases.

My question is if I create all patches on day 1. Will they sound the same after 3years ?

 

If not, this one reason not to buy it on release date. Has anyone made this test to prove it yet? I've seen people complaining without real proof. Something to the mythbusters!

 

Although it might be a myth. I'm always updating pods firmware. AND hope they release a final version with no bugs SOON.

[sulkbooth]

What do you consider "around" $1000?  i.e. What is your margin for error?  If you pay close attention to web retailers coupon offers, etc. the Helix is what I would call "around $1000" already.

 

Where? I've tried some of my coupons from Musicians Friend and Sweetwater, but they are not eligible for the Helix.

Around 1000$ is +/- 10% :lol:  

[cruisinon2]

My question is if I create all patches on day 1. Will they sound the same after 3years ?

 

 

 

I would argue that nothing is ever going to sound identical 3 years later, or even 3 weeks for that matter.  Hell, your perception of how a patch sounds can change from one day to the next, even if no actual parameter changes have been made...tone is all preception, really. It's an evolving thing...what sounds good today  might make you cringe tomorrow...for any one of a thousand reasons. Good mood, bad mood, new strings, old strings, don't have my chops today, the bass player is too loud, keyboard player thinks he has 20 fingers  ;)...etc, etc.

[jandrio]

even if u play same riff with same patch, it wld b nother (different)  performance... ;)

[phil_m]

The first time I plugged my guitar in pod hd, the hard gate was useless. I was wondering who would use it. Finally I find out the firmware was out to date. Very old firmware. I updated it and everything was fine. Almost, new bugs and new releases.

My question is if I create all patches on day 1. Will they sound the same after 3years ?

 

If not, this one reason not to buy it on release date. Has anyone made this test to prove it yet? I've seen people complaining without real proof. Something to the mythbusters!

 

Although it might be a myth. I'm always updating pods firmware. AND hope they release a final version with no bugs SOON.

 

Typically, when Line 6 releases an update, it doesn't change the core tone of the amp modeling. Even when they released the update that added the DEP amp and cab stuff, it shouldn't have changed the sound of your presets since the default values were left the same before those parameters were uncovered. There are some globals settings that may change during the update process that might change the way the HD500 sounded before and after an update, such as output modes. But, really, doing an update isn't all that disruptive. I've done every HD update, and I've never had to change my patches afterwards.

[mbenigni]

Where? I've tried some of my coupons from Musicians Friend and Sweetwater, but they are not eligible for the Helix.

Around 1000$ is +/- 10% :lol:  

 

I found a 20% coupon from an MF-affiliated dealer called Woodwind & Brasswind.  Their website also indicated that discounts were not applicable to Line 6, but I spoke to a rep on the phone and worked it out.  That got me within +/- 20% - good enough for me.  :D

[aerosol_d7]

I agree with you jandrio and cruisinion

 

A simple test would be recorded dry signal, to pod v1 and to pod v2.6x compare.

 

They should sound the same, no global eq or dep parameters. Right?

[aerosol_d7]

Typically, when Line 6 releases an update, it doesn't change the core tone of the amp modeling. Even when they released the update that added the DEP amp and cab stuff, it shouldn't have changed the sound of your presets since the default values were left the same before those parameters were uncovered. There are some globals settings that may change during the update process that might change the way the HD500 sounded before and after an update, such as output modes. But, really, doing an update isn't all that disruptive. I've done every HD update, and I've never had to change my patches afterwards.

Thanks for your time Phil. But if they correct anything soundwise like fx or amps, it d change it. I should look for changes log if there is one.

 

With all these new technologies, we are never sure if they will sound the same.

 

I'd like to hear opinions from the people who bought podhd on release date. Or Any of you buying helix now bought podhd on release date as well?

[karmicfreak]

My JTV-69/HD500/DT25 Dream Rig serves my purposes very well - and in many cases, over serves.  I will often play my JTV Mags (or another axe) purely thru the DT25, with the Fender Twin model preamp, and I can do entire gigs of jazz and oldies by cranking the gain and using my guitar's volume to saturate.  In a few projects, I use lots of effects, but even when playing in musical pits, the rig is perfect, when I add an acoustic amp to the FX loop for acoustic sounds from the JTV.  If I were to upgrade to Helix, it would mean selling everything, buying an FRFR (I have experience with L2T and LTM, my church has 2 of each) and then getting the Helix.  All in all, likely another $1500 even after selling what I have.  I love the new shiny, and I'll follow with anticipation and excitement, but it's not for me.  Not yet. 

[radatats]

My question is if I create all patches on day 1. Will they sound the same after 3years ?

 

my question is would you still be using the identical patch 3 years later?  I am constantly changing little things and sometimes don't keep a patch the same for 3 weeks!  as long as things improve update to update I'm good with it.  I've never really noticed any tone changes with an update without actually changing something...

[aerosol_d7]

Good point, I was imagining this:

 

I buy helix, create the best tone I have heard in my life and being stable, I ignore all new firmware releases. After 3 years, tone adjustments during this time, as you said, L6 launches new and free packs that an upgrade is required. Are we sure the tone will be the same after upgrade? I'm not. What would you say?

[radatats]

I would say that the if the update was for anything amp related, it would almost certainly be to improve something over the previous version, thus making my tone even more desirable.  Most updates have been to enable new or improve certain functions or to allow better integration with new products.  Even the update that added new amps didn't actually change the older ones that I am aware of.  It's not as if the updates actually introduce new algorithms although that would be pretty awesome...

[aerosol_d7]

I don't really agree the word changing to new algorithms would be awesome. I'd prefer adding (keeping the old ones) better. Maybe that happened with Marshall in hd? Who knows?

 

In that case I would definitely buy one.

[cruisinon2]

Good point, I was imagining this:

 

I buy helix, create the best tone I have heard in my life and being stable, I ignore all new firmware releases. After 3 years, tone adjustments during this time, as you said, L6 launches new and free packs that an upgrade is required. Are we sure the tone will be the same after upgrade? I'm not. What would you say?

Nothing is eternal, and there are no guarantees with anything, period...goes double for anything as subjective and affected by as many variables as one's guitar tone. As far as I'm concerned, you're asking for the impossible.

 

It's no different than any other "real" amp rig. I've yet to meet the player who was so enthralled with the tone of his Marshall head one day, that he glued all the knobs in place so it would last forever.

[aerosol_d7]

Nothing is eternal, and there are no guarantees with anything, period...goes double for anything as subjective and affected by as many variables as one's guitar tone. As far as I'm concerned, you're asking for the impossible.

 

It's no different than any other "real" amp rig. I've yet to meet the player who was so enthralled with the tone of his Marshall head one day, that he glued all the knobs in place so it would last forever.

This is a new digital era mind. I'm sure companies could keep consistency if they wanted to. Btw

I bet my boss pedal ds-1 is still sounding the same!

[CipherHost]

I bet my boss pedal ds-1 is still sounding the same!

 

Not sure that is really the best analogy. Maybe something in the synthesizer category.

[cruisinon2]

This is a new digital era mind. I'm sure companies could keep consistency if they wanted to. Btw

I bet my boss pedal ds-1 is still sounding the same!

What you perceive as a lack of consistency is exactly that...perception. How something sounds is entirely about perception...Assuming no serious and glaring device malfunction, 98% of your tone happens between your ears. It's about as organic a process as there is, and therfore is largely subjective, not to mention being affected by a set of external variables of Biblical length. What sounds good to me, might be nails on a chalkboard to you...and what sounds good to me today might seem like a railroad spike going through my head 6 months from now.

 

Dial up a patch that you haven't used in weeks or months, and tell me if you're still as happy with it as you were the last time you used it. Or pull out an old piece of gear that you used to use all the time, but now collects dust. I'll bet that your first reaction is not going to be : "Why did I ever stop using this thing?"

 

Hell, even patches I use day-to-day get little tweaks here and there. Why? Because perception changes. Your Boss pedal might be DOING the same thing it always has, but it doesn't mean that you'll always hear it that way. We're not androids. Just my 2 cents.

[cruisinon2]

Not sure that is really the best analogy. Maybe something in the synthesizer category.

A better analogy, yes. But then again, I thought the Casio keyboard I had in middle school (circa 1987?) was awesome...but was it? I'd likely laugh at it today...even if it functioned exactly as advertised. We change. Unless it's actually broken, the gear generally doesn't.

[aerosol_d7]

I'm not talking about perception. But about the new way how companies deliver their products nowadays. I think most companies deliver unfinished products or not well tested products. They wait for customers' feedback to make corrections.It is not only L6.

Of course this should be acceptable but in what level? I'd accept minors corrections, not major.

 

Soundwise we expect final version from day 1, the core must not change after. Who guarantees that?

[TheRealZap]

modeling world is a little different than just the "here's a pile of effects" world....

 

for example... if the model of X effect sounds great... but is found to not accurately reflect the source....

then yes that should change... the company advertised a model of X, and consumer expect it to behave like X

sometimes that will change the tone of the effect.... (or amp or whatnot)

it has happened in the past... and Line6 has even bought back the defective original model due to user request (pod HD uber\elektrik being the referenced example)

 

if you don't want your sounds to change at all... don't update...

line6 allows you to downgrade too, so you have that option after the fact (sony/apple famously do not allow such)

i'm not going to allow something as silly as a minor tone change keep me from the new technology\features\models or whatever...

i'm a big boy... and i'll turn the knobs and tweak until i get something pleasing.... or as close to that original sound as i desire.

 

and likewise.... i DO NOT want the company locking things down and refusing to make corrective tweaks because some dude somewhere doesn't want the fix.

 

 

I'm not talking about perception. But about the new way how companies deliver their products nowadays. I think most companies deliver unfinished products or not well tested products. They wait for customers' feedback to make corrections.It is not only L6.
Of course this should be acceptable but in what level? I'd accept minors corrections, not major.

Soundwise we expect final version from day 1, the core must not change after. Who guarantees that?

[cruisinon2]

I'm not talking about perception. But about the new way how companies deliver their products nowadays. I think most companies deliver unfinished products or not well tested products. They wait for customers' feedback to make corrections.It is not only L6.

Of course this should be acceptable but in what level? I'd accept minors corrections, not major.

 

Soundwise we expect final version from day 1, the core must not change after. Who guarantees that?

OK...after this one I officially give up, because you're talking in circles. First it was a discussion about your Boss pedal still sounding the same after a million years, and your fear that Helix won't do the same after a firmware update. Now we've morphed into a debate about companies releasing unfinished products. And I hesitate to even mention how ridiculous it is that you would "accept" only minor fixes to a product, while major flaws are left to fester. How is that a better outcome? Never mind...you win. May your joy be at it's zenith with forever static tone.

[aerosol_d7]

Ideal world for me:

Line6 launches jcm800 amp simulation in helix, theres a defect, instead of replacing it, just add, keep the old one (because people have tones created on it).

So in practice v1 and v2. Of course L6 wouldn't care if users lost their tones but would that hurt?no.

There is also marketing involved, if it takes 29 versions to get it done. Lol. Ok end of story.

thank you guys

[phil_m]

Ideal world for me:

Line6 launches jcm800 amp simulation in helix, theres a defect, instead of replacing it, just add, keep the old one (because people have tones created on it).

So in practice v1 and v2. Of course L6 wouldn't care if users lost their tones but would that hurt?no.

There is also marketing involved, if it takes 29 versions to get it done. Lol. Ok end of story.

thank you guys

 

Well, I can't think of time when Line 6 has done that with an amp model (well, there is one time I can think of - the Bomber Uber and Elektrik model on the HD). They aren't like Fractal in that regard. They don't continually tweak the existing models for the very reason you're talking about. They know people have created tones with them, and they know people want those tones to sound the way they did when they created them. In the case of the Bomber Uber/Elektrik, the original Uber model was replaced/updated, but people liked the original model, so Line 6 gave it back to them and called it the Elektrik.

[aerosol_d7]

Well, I can't think of time when Line 6 has done that with an amp model (well, there is one time I can think of - the Bomber Uber and Elektrik model on the HD). They aren't like Fractal in that regard. They don't continually tweak the existing models for the very reason you're talking about. They know people have created tones with them, and they know people want those tones to sound the way they did when they created them. In the case of the Bomber Uber/Elektrik, the original Uber model was replaced/updated, but people liked the original model, so Line 6 gave it back to them and called it the Elektrik.

Thanks Phil for the information! Good to know

[Digital_Igloo]

Phil nailed it. Line 6 goes through great lengths to make sure almost no new work is required with each update. We might tweak model defaults, but that shouldn't affect any user presets. If there's ever a case where something might change sonically, we'll try to be as transparent and detailed as possible, so there are no surprises and users can quickly update their setlists.

[aerosol_d7]

we'll try to be as transparent and detailed as possible

Awesome! where do we find what Phil just said from Line6's words?

[phil_m]

Awesome! where do we find what Phil just said from Line6's words?

 

Well, DI is the product manager for Helix, so that's pretty much straight from the horse's mouth...

 

 

 

Wait, did I just call DI a horse... :ph34r:

[aerosol_d7]

So, those infos are only on forums? Or horses mouth? Lol

[pianoguyy]

I was kinda curious how many out there is willing to shell out a extra Grand for this.  From what i have heard from the Video demos ( the sound samples only are maybe 15% better than the HD series at best).  

I am just not sold on this unit as a worthy upgrade for me at this time...  just wondering other peoples thoughts or am I the only one thinking this way..

 

Not a chance in Hell. 

I have a totally functional unit, why would I buy something. Why would I even watch videos. Had my unit not been enough for me, I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. 

I would just assume buy 16 individual rack units to build the perfect machine for all of my needs, than I would buy a product that I don't like and doesn't do what I need. I bought a product, I am happy with the product, I am keeping the product. All new products be damned, until the point comes when I need to replace a malfunctioning unit. 

 

And then, I just read a post that said asked for the maximum amount of fx blocks, and the response was - you could get as little as FOUR depending on which ones they are. SCREW THAT!  

 

 

However, as to your 15% statement ---- 

As been mentioned before, watching a crappy YT video, shot with crappy MT cameras, that was edited with crappy MW software, coming through crappy PC speakers -- you have no clue what it is going to sound like when played through a 100,000 watt pa system for a crowd of 30,000 tearing up a football field screaming your name. 

[phil_m]

And then, I just read a post that said asked for the maximum amount of fx blocks, and the response was - you could get as little as FOUR depending on which ones they are. SCREW THAT!  

 

The four was referring to amp/cab blocks. The way the blocks are set up in Helix, there's not a dedicated slot for amp/cab blocks like there is on 500/500X. Using an amp/cab block or split blocks for the amp and cab counts against the max of 32 blocks. The question asked was how many blocks could one reasonably expect to use in a tone. DI answered that if you have 4 DSP intensive amp/cab blocks, that may hit the limit or get close. It really depends. I've really never hit the overall DSP limit when setting up tones. I have hit it one path, but then I just move over to the next path. I imagine that typical users will not ever really come all that close. It really only comes into play when trying to do really complex stuff with two or more amps. Even with a dual amp setup, you can have some pretty big chains. I'm relatively certain there aren't any effects that are so DSP intensive that you could only have four instances of them (and nothing else) and hit the limit.

[phil_m]

given what you said above, would be correct to assume that each of the 4 available paths has 25% DSP reserved resources at disposal?

 

Well, there are two processors, and the four tone paths are labeled 1A & 1B and 2A and 2B. 1A and 1B share the resources of the first processor, so however you have those paths set up, their combined max DSP load represents 50% of the entire DSP of the unit (or 100% of that processor would be another way to put it). The same could be said for 2A & 2B. In my example above, I was close to the limit of the first processor and just moved some stuff down to the second.

 

It's a little hard to explain the exact functionality when others haven't actually seen the manual or unit yet. The default setup, if you will, is one tone path using processor 1 and another using processor 2. You can split those two paths into two independent paths, so that's how you get 1A, 1B, 2A and 2B. It makes perfect sense once you see the signal paths on the screen. Once you have those four paths set up, you can arrange them in all sorts of routings.

[pianoguyy]

The four was referring to amp/cab blocks. The way the blocks are set up in Helix, there's not a dedicated slot for amp/cab blocks like there is on 500/500X. Using an amp/cab block or split blocks for the amp and cab counts against the max of 32 blocks. The question asked was how many blocks could one reasonably expect to use in a tone. DI answered that if you have 4 DSP intensive amp/cab blocks, that may hit the limit or get close. It really depends. I've really never hit the overall DSP limit when setting up tones. I have hit it one path, but then I just move over to the next path. I imagine that typical users will not ever really come all that close. It really only comes into play when trying to do really complex stuff with two or more amps. Even with a dual amp setup, you can have some pretty big chains. I'm relatively certain there aren't any effects that are so DSP intensive that you could only have four instances of them (and nothing else) and hit the limit.

 

Thank you for clearing that up    :rolleyes:

Regardless of it being 4 or 400, or how it gets configured, the rest of my statement still applies. 

 

I am not spending money on a unit when I already have a unit.