Bandmates don't feel POD HD sound on stage

[napynap]

   I was involved in a discussion with my bandmates at rehearsal about how they don't feel my POD HD tones are as good as when I used to use an amp on stage (Line6 SVMKII 212). Currently, for gigs, I'm using a POD HD straight to the board, and for rehearsals to an ALTO TS 110A powered speaker on the floor pointing up toward me and the band. Stereo audio recordings of performances from the main mix and also from the room out in the audience sound fine.  I informed my bandmates to ask for more of me in their monitors, and suggested they are not used to hearing so little guitar presence on stage. I've never had any audience members or invited musicians in the house pull me aside to discuss any major changes needed on my guitar tones. As soon as I have some time, I'll add a video here demonstrating my tones, so you can chime in as well.

 

    It brings up a good debate about how the sound of a physical guitar amp on stage can affect the performances of the other players. Have any of you had this issue, and do you have any suggestions on how to resolve it?

[ShelbyMustangGt]

Hm.. that makes me think. I never had such problems. I played the Pod numerous times live, and even more so in rehearsals.

 

Nobody ever said something. Well, sometimes words of praise for the good sound.

 

But one thing for sure: The presence of an amp and a real cab on stage gives a whole different "feeling".

Some people I know can't play with their guitar on the monitors. (InEars not included).

I, on the other hand, hate to have a cab in the back. Why do I need to have a speaker blasting in my arse? I always ask for the sound guy to give me the majority on my monitors. Nice added effect: When you play thd "foot on the monitor"-solo, you get everything right in the face. I love it.

 

My advice is to give your bandmates some time. Maybe really give them more of you on the monitors. If that doesn't work, let them check what the crowd hears at a gig. Place them in front of the PA and they will hear that everything is "there".

Otherwise, if nothing helps, get a) InEar monitors, that would really solve everything (I guess. No promise) or b) play the box that you use in practices at a gig, simultaniously while going to the front board or c) Bite the bullet and get the ol' big amp back on stage. Band performance > Everything else.

 

Nothing on earth can really come up to the ROOAAR that a real speaker makes, but I for example don't need it. Everything that can lower the volume on stage for me is a heavenly gift. If only the drummer could play quieter...

[RogerH]

One important thing that many people forget when they discuss POD's(and other modeling units) vs real amps, is that a POD simulates a miked amp,

So when comparing sounds it's important to listen to the sounds that goes out of the PA.

We had a gig on a very small stage, and my fellow guitarist had a microphone in front of his tube amp. We had no soundguy out in the audience, so we had to spend a lot of time before the show to get the sound right.

When the soundcheck was finished we were quite happy with the sound and had a good feeling.

But when the gig was finished we noticed that the mic in front of his amp had been moved during the show, and was pointing away from his amp.

We don't know how his guitarsound was in the PA,  but I don't think it could be very good. 

With a POD this would not have been a problem...

[Palico]

The presence of an amp and a real cab on stage gives a whole different "feeling".

 

 

a POD simulates a miked amp,

 

 

+1 Exactly on both point. A miked amp does not sound exactly like an amp in the room and it doesn't "feel" like an amp either even with the guitar turned up in the monitor. The mic changes the tone of the amp, how much depends on which mic. When you mic'ing a real cab on stage the audience actually hears something a bit different than you typically do because you hearing the cab speakers of a mix of cab speakers and monitors. Depending on the volume level as well a cab can rumble and cause vibration in the floor etc... That's the "feel" part of it, I don't mean a "feel" like how the notes dig in but an actual physical feeling. At low volumes then it's not much. I used straight to the PA for while back when I was using an X3 and just never liked it. The tones were good and I had a good dedicated sound man for the band so levels where rarely and issue. He would even keep up with the songs and adjust levels for solo etc.... But something still alluded me. So I when FRFR with a tube and it solved the issue mostly. When I shifted to the HD I went with a DT25 and have never been happier. I believe it's 2 things. One is using the L6 link the mic simulation is turned off, so It sounds more like a amp and with the DT it has the physical feel and the tube thump I like. 

 

My best advice is to run Alto on Stage along with the PA feed. It will still not be quite the same feel bit it will be a bit closer and this is what you Rehearse with. I have used a different setup on stage than rehearsal when I had to but I've never found that to be optimal situation. I always found it's much better to Rehearse with what you plan to do on stage and that includes equipment setup being pretty close. 

[eenymason]

I've gotta say "how " you (and others) hear your guitar sound is a BIG part of how it's perceived, and also I believe this is relevant to the discussion related to the perceived "latency", or disconnectedness we feel from what we're playing. I think that particular discussion is on the Helix forum, and I don't want to get bogged down in relation to that topic here.

Personally I hate in ear monitors, (IEMs) - but I can see a use for them. Indispensable for singers when they get used to using them, but for guitarists, they're the worst way to hear, and respond to your guitar. It's imperative for true electric guitar tone (regardless of the type of stage amplification - ie FRFR/SS, or even (my preferred choice), into a stereo valve power amp, into a couple of 2x12s or the like, the guitar NEEDS to interact with it's signal being fed back to it by speakers. It allows for good clean sustain right through to full solo/feedback type scenarios you just can't replicate without that interaction. Low stage volume is good for some band members, not so good for others. It doesn't have to be overly LOUD either - just so everybody in the band can both hear and feel it sufficiently.

My suggestion is either move your monitor further away and turn it up a bit (for the others), or if stage size is restricted, another monitor on stage somewhere just to allow the others to "feel" it (or if there are already enough monitors - get the soundguy to add more of your guitar in them).

[Leftzilla]

I respectfully disagree about the in ear monitors as I have found them quite useful and in fact one of my bands rehearses with them in place.  That doesn't mean you don't have a very good reason for not liking them, but they literally have saved my hearing.  To the original poster, a lot of this has to do with personal comfort, and as many others have pointed out, the onstage perception of the band sound.  Since most dedicated guitar amplifiers are extremely directional I would have to question what the rest of the band actually thinks they are hearing since most of them will not be in the full frequency feed of the amp itself.  I have not been playing through a dedicated guitar amplifier onstage for over 10 years.  Depending on the venue I will bring either a small FR FR keyboard amp or an Amplifi 75 as a backup depending on the venue's monitors, but the band specifically invested in the in ear monitors due to very poor onstage monitor systems we have run into.  Originally my Bass player kept trying to pressure me into getting a large guitar amp for onstage because this is what he was used to.  However since introducing the in ear monitors where he can hear the signal of the entire band as I it is sent to the front of the house he now understands and prefers our current monitoring system.  And in the end run it will be a balance between the comfort level of the band and the quality of the sound going to the front of the house.

[pianoguyy]

 

    It brings up a good debate about how the sound of a physical guitar amp on stage can affect the performances of the other players. Have any of you had this issue, and do you have any suggestions on how to resolve it?

 

1. Small little pubs that require a 'quiet stage'. 

2. Big gigantic arenas and stadiums where you can't hear your rig on the other side of the stage. 

3. Deafness from years of 'feeling' it. 

 

 

Explain to me how musicians make it work in those 3 situations, and you will have the answer you seek. 

[PRSGuy]

I am a direct to PA, in ear monitor guy...actually our whole band is...it sounds fantastic. My mix is dialed in for how I like it (I actually like the whole band mix with my guitar floating on top. I also control my solo volume level as well via the HD500). Everyone else has their own preference in their mix too. In ears do a couple nice things, there is no stage volume problems, there is no, "I need more of me" or "the singer is too loud" or sound checks to get the monitors figured out because each room varies. I also don't have to lug 6 or 7 monitor wedges on stage and set them up and tear them down...the in ear mixes are consistent from venue to venue whether we play for 100 people or 1000 it is the same.

 

With that said, I understand the rush playing with air moving from an amp or monitors...but in the end for me, it was the economics of quick setup and tear down, consistently good sound and my ears DO NOT RING after gigs...period.

 

I know I have been a little off topic, but monitoring on stage is tough for local bands even with a good sound guy. The bigger bands have dedicated techs and sound guys strictly for the monitoring of the band...

 

anyway...sorry I digress...

[BillBee]

In a small local band I just grab the Power Engine 60 and go. When there are 4-6 bands on a bill its get on the stage and bail off (with gear) asap. The 4x12 was just unneeded, too heavy and too loud for the stage. I agree that a stack adds a certain visual charm but if its being mic'd for the PA I couldn't see the point. Sound guys loved the set-up and never a had a complaint about the tone.

 

Sound-guys have you by the balls though and I bristle at poor sound checks (being rushed through or none) where the stage monitors are not leveled to my satisfaction. I took to using an amp stand so I could have it pointing up where I could always move in towards the "amp" if needed. As an opener at one show the soundguy began adjusting levels quite agressively and at one point I had all but dropped out of the mix. That was fun thinking I pulled a cable out. :)

 

Ringing ears = bad. Kind of like a guitarist's concussion.

 

-B

[ShelbyMustangGt]

I am a direct to PA, in ear monitor guy...actually our whole band is...it sounds fantastic. My mix is dialed in for how I like it (I actually like the whole band mix with my guitar floating on top. I also control my solo volume level as well via the HD500). Everyone else has their own preference in their mix too. In ears do a couple nice things, there is no stage volume problems, there is no, "I need more of me" or "the singer is too loud" or sound checks to get the monitors figured out because each room varies. I also don't have to lug 6 or 7 monitor wedges on stage and set them up and tear them down...the in ear mixes are consistent from venue to venue whether we play for 100 people or 1000 it is the same.

 

With that said, I understand the rush playing with air moving from an amp or monitors...but in the end for me, it was the economics of quick setup and tear down, consistently good sound and my ears DO NOT RING after gigs...period.

 

I know I have been a little off topic, but monitoring on stage is tough for local bands even with a good sound guy. The bigger bands have dedicated techs and sound guys strictly for the monitoring of the band...

 

anyway...sorry I digress...

You clearly went off-topic there. But there's nothing to add to your comment. My next band will be on IEM, too. Doesn't matter how small or shallow the room is. I am fed up with lollipop on stage sound.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Many folks just can't imagine playing live without a back-line, and that's what it comes down to psychologically for them.

 

It's a hard sell to make that transition if only a portion of the band are making it.

 

We're so used to hearing/feeling that high SPL on stage that when we don't hear/feel it moving all around us, we think something is wrong.  

 

Once you go D.I. and get it dialed in, same with the I.E.M's, the clarity becomes the turning point in which many finally ascertain the value of this approach, myself included.

[napynap]

Thank you all for responding so quickly! Each response has valid points and knowledge that I can pass on to my bandmates, (I'll give them a link to this thread). With the different ideas provided here, hopefully we can come to a resolution as a band, because nothing's worse than not feeling your own performance on stage. If we don't feel it, the audience won't either.  I'll be sure to add a video of my tones here as soon as I can. It would be great to get your opinions on them.

 

Please continue to share solutions on this topic.

[bartnettle1]

The InEar monitoring is the way to go as it saves your ears from prematurely failing.

Getting used to them or cans is also handy in the Studio.

 

I use to gig and done plenty of concerts outdoors and you can get thrown and not hear across stage

Hearing your bass thru a 3way coming off the back wall of a venue takes getting used to if all your done is rehearse and parties.

And that is different to playing on headphones at home.

 

The only liability of in ears is with the band playing beyond what the FOH system can handle, Slew rates of Power Amps have improved  but the bigness of the sound to the audience wont be heard in InEar Monitoring.

 

Hopefully you can feel it without it being a reflection off the back wall!

[KFURIO]

For those of you play directly through a PA, would you be willing to share some of your presets?  I am trying to get some good rhythm and leads tones that will sit well in the overall mix while going direct. I feel that my main patches are too "thin sounding" and would like to compare to what others are using. 

[pianoguyy]

For those of you play directly through a PA, would you be willing to share some of your presets?  I am trying to get some good rhythm and leads tones that will sit well in the overall mix while going direct. I feel that my main patches are too "thin sounding" and would like to compare to what others are using. 

Sharing to compare would be good in theory, but bad in practice. 

I go direct. The sounds that I need vary depending on the needs of the job I am on. It is quite possible that my 'thin sound' is what I need, which is why I designed the patch that way. But, you, looking to thicken your sound up may not like what you hear and may assume that my thin sound and your thin sound must just be the way that the unit sounds even though it just happens to be the way we designed our patches. 

[stumblinman]

Sounds like most of you are concerned about how you sound to yourself as opposed to the audience. It is a trade off going direct, but at least with an amp behind you the sound guy can't eff you up too bad. I'm back to using an amp because I personally missed it.

 

Don't like IEMs because it makes me feel separated from the crowd. Like I'm wearing earplugs and pretending to play guitar. Volume with monitors generally isn't an issue, except by the end of the night when the drummer is drunk and playing louder. Crash cymbals hurt my ears the worst. But that's assaulting me from behind. We don't play short sets with multiple acts though. We play Friday and Saturday 4 hour gigs, and run our own sound. If we buy the drummer a drum shield my ears would be fine after the weekend.

[joel_brown]

Your bandmates will eventually get used to it.  For now it's just different.

[PRSGuy]

I will add the other problem with on stage monitors especially if you are mixing from stage (which we do most of the time) is the guy/gal mixing is influenced by the sound of the monitors (location, reflections, volume etc) which may not at all be the same as FOH. So for example the person mixing is near the keyboard monitor which sounds "hot" so the keys get turned down when in fact they sound fine out front...there are ways to work around this but just things we have run into prior to all in ears.

 

Anyway, with all the pros and cons, there are great bands that use both methods with a great deal of success so you need to pick your poison and figure how to resolve the issues you may have with either approach. I am not trying to sell the in-ear approach, but simply it does work for us.

 

I will add though regardless of the approach be mindful of ringing in your ears after a gig, that is not a good thing and over time will cause you problems.

[pianoguyy]

Why even bother running a pa if you are mixing from the stage! 

Just turn your amps up really loud if that is all you are doing. 

 

 

Running the monitors from stage is ok if you have to do so, but how does someone run sound while drumming or playing guitar, and how does someone control what the audience hears when they are back behind a the very speakers that they are meant to be controlling.

[jandrio]

For those of you play directly through a PA, would you be willing to share some of your presets?  I am trying to get some good rhythm and leads tones that will sit well in the overall mix while going direct. I feel that my main patches are too "thin sounding" and would like to compare to what others are using. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3b7kXW444v4OpNy_vQaMFL1K9nPUittG

 

presets in each vid descr

[PRSGuy]

In our case we have a digital mixing console which can also be run by an iPAD (behringer X32). So we build a template file for venues we play which we can recall as a starting point. The keyboard player runs the mixing console. He set up an A/B switch where he can hear either his personal monitor mix or listen to the master bus (FOH). So he is able to keep tabs on the FOH. He, also depending on the song, walks out front once in a while to make sure things have not gone astray...blah blah.

 

Overall it works very well. Yea once in a great while we have a tough night dealing with stuff...but overall...it is pretty seamless. 

 

 

Why even bother running a pa if you are mixing from the stage! 

Just turn your amps up really loud if that is all you are doing. 

 

 

Running the monitors from stage is ok if you have to do so, but how does someone run sound while drumming or playing guitar, and how does someone control what the audience hears when they are back behind a the very speakers that they are meant to be controlling.

[KFURIO]

Thanks Jandrio!!  Great tone live.  That really helps to hear what others are using when running direct to PA.  

[jandrio]

u r welcome :)

[spaceatl]

If you cut your teeth playing thru a real amp (bandmates included), then getting accustomed to playing thru an FRFR vibe is a psychological and physical adjustment because it is quite different.

 

Psychologically, it is one of those things where it just does not feel the same. It might just be a translation that comes out because the player is a bit uncomfortable or the fact that electric guitar cabs don't have tweeters.

 

On the physical side, the reality is that an FRFR rendering of an amp model is actually the rendering of a microphone on a cab model that is in front of an amp model.

 

So there's the pesky tweeter again that interacts with your guitar in a completely different way than a 12 inch speaker(s)....If you cut your teeth in a real studio playing in the control room listening to the sofits, then I think the adjustment would be minimal as that is pretty much the same thing...

 

IEMs basically kill the feedback loop and I am not a fan of those...With perfection comes an amount of sterility...but this is just my opinion on this subject. nothing more... B)

[Leftzilla]

Everybody posting has good points and in the long run it will take you and your band to decide what is the best for you.  For me I have one band that is completely into the in ear monitors (Elephants of Scotland- Original Prog 4 piece) but the other 80's cover band, the keyboard player is more old school, he wants the monitor.  However we have come up with  a compromise where we will be getting him a powered frfr monitor.  I do want both bands to migrate to a digital mixer (we are looking XR16) as it has 4 aux buses with individual mix capability.  I run sound for both bands and in the case of the cover band we run the house mono and foldback the house mix to the monitors.  This allows me to run sound from the stage, with waltizing out on the wirless to check house mix.  Great in small venues but you can easily get fooled in larger.

 

The way I was able to get the kybd player to compromise is I told him he would have control of his monitor mix and be able to customize it via his cell phone.

[leesteel]

Why even bother running a pa if you are mixing from the stage! 

Just turn your amps up really loud if that is all you are doing. 

 

 

Running the monitors from stage is ok if you have to do so, but how does someone run sound while drumming or playing guitar, and how does someone control what the audience hears when they are back behind a the very speakers that they are meant to be controlling.

 

Some of us set up with our PA speakers behind us….. It's a groundbreaking concept.

[leesteel]

In our case we have a digital mixing console which can also be run by an iPAD (behringer X32). So we build a template file for venues we play which we can recall as a starting point. The keyboard player runs the mixing console. He set up an A/B switch where he can hear either his personal monitor mix or listen to the master bus (FOH). So he is able to keep tabs on the FOH. He, also depending on the song, walks out front once in a while to make sure things have not gone astray...blah blah.

 

Overall it works very well. Yea once in a great while we have a tough night dealing with stuff...but overall...it is pretty seamless. 

 

I am using the Mackie 1608 with an iPad.. We get an amazing sound and also get to store our settings per venue to recall the next time we are in there. Most times, no sound check needed except to assure the signal is physically there. No guitar amp on stage. 2 powered mains behind me and one powered monitor on the floor in front. I even manage feedback with a Variax, imagine that. I purchased the HD500X so I could eliminate the amp on stage and have never looked back.

[spaceatl]

Some of us set up with our PA speakers behind us….. It's a groundbreaking concept.

 

lol! yes, groundbreaking...Always loved the "Wall of Sound" concepts...

 

[leesteel]

I hear the entire mix every night. Sometimes the mix is so overwhelming that it makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck.

 

That's a great picture….. THE DEAD?

[KFURIO]

For those of you run your guitar directly into the PA/board do you pan your presets hard "L/R" or "Center" in the POD's mixer?  Is there an optimal way to pan the guitar signal while running direct?  

[leesteel]

For those of you run your guitar directly into the PA/board do you pan your presets hard "L/R" or "Center" in the POD's mixer?  Is there an optimal way to pan the guitar signal while running direct?  

 

I do all my panning from the mixer. 

[jandrio]

For those of you run your guitar directly into the PA/board do you pan your presets hard "L/R" or "Center" in the POD's mixer? Is there an optimal way to pan the guitar signal while running direct?

always use two channels of the PA mixing console; pan those hard "L/R".

in this way u have full control via each preset; i u wanna have stereo guitar sound pan hard "L/R" in the POD's mixer, otherwise pan "Center".

[spaceatl]

always use two channels of the PA mixing console; pan those hard "L/R".

in this way u have full control via each preset; i u wanna have stereo guitar sound pan hard "L/R" in the POD's mixer, otherwise pan "Center".

That's actually not quite right in terms of the POD "balance" controls....Each chain is stereo. If the balance controls are in the middle, the output signal will be stereo. This does depend on FX selection an placement, but it is a common misconception that the balance controls in the POD mixer have to be hard LR to get stereo....They are actually not pan controls, they are balance controls on stereo chains...but this is technical nit-picking...

[jandrio]

this is true, but 4 live gigging purposes suggested pan L/R works more than perfect :)

[pianoguyy]

I do the same thing for the 'local' gigs. 

PA is panned hard left and hard right, and then my patches determine if I am running things the same in both or different or mixed. 

 

Studio work is completely different and is always on a case by case basis. 

Also, it doesn't apply to larger stage productions. 

[napynap]

As promised, here's a short video of some of the tones I use. They are all mono tones, and you are hearing the direct feed from the POD HD, no external sound processing during the video edit. Enjoy...

 

napynap pod hd tones 2015 0902

http://youtu.be/7h6MBmVLZJc

[jandrio]

PA/STUDIO CONSOLE pan differs completely from POD-MIXER pan.

When POD is direct connected in2 PA/STUDIO CONSOLE using both L+R balanced/unbalanced outputs, THE PA/STUDIO CONSOLE MUST BE PANNED HARD L/R, regardless if it is a small gig, a large stage production, a studio recording session, or ...a jam session in paradise.

 

Exception: MONO patches.

[KFURIO]

Napynap, your patches in the video sound great.  Could you post them to custom tone?  That's exactly what I was looking for. Great playing too.

 

As promised, here's a short video of some of the tones I use. They are all mono tones, and you are hearing the direct feed from the POD HD, no external sound processing during the video edit. Enjoy...

 

napynap pod hd tones 2015 0902

http://youtu.be/7h6MBmVLZJc

[JTSC777]

Power trio gigs. 2 Bose speakers. The lowest powered ones behind us. No floor monitors. HD500 direct in mono also run to my Alto 10 in personal monitor. For some venues I take a feed from the mains and also a feed from my HD500 and run them both theough the Alto 10. We use a new Behringer digital mixer. Drummer runs it with an Ipad. Each member can play and sing their behind off. Whether they can hear everything perfectly or not. If you have years of studio commercial experience like we all do you know how to deliver. I will not play with any whiny " I cant hear you enough/ me enough/ my dog ate my homework/ day late dollar short " wussys.

 

Amps are great I still use them.

FRFR is great I use them.

IEMs are nice I use those too.

 

It's All Good If You Can Play!

[oehman]

Napynap - your OP had me thinking that maybe you played in a nü metal band or in a situation where huge stage volume was the issue. But clearly that is not the case.

 

Your tones and playing are outstanding. You could probably post that video in the Helix forum and fool them into thinking you are a beta tester....

Please upload your patches to custom tone and give us the link!

 

As to why your band mates don't feel it, IDK. does everyone in the band have their own monitor, or is the only stage monitor for vocals? And not to blame equipment, but my hd500 didn't leave me feeling satisfied until I bought a L2 for a vocal/guitar monitor. I started with a Behringer 10" (not very good), IEM (much better),and EV ZLX12p (very good) before I took the plunge on the L2. Big difference for me, but I don't think my band mates or the audience noticed a difference.