FRFR ?

[Old-Rocker]

Hi,if the 500X is based on creating Amp Models & Effects for electric Guitar,why is FRFR recommended so strongly,instead of a Clean Guitar power amp &  speaker cab?,just curious about this :) .

[arislaf]

Cause the cab and power amp gives color to your tone, frfr not.

[BillBee]

A clean power amp and cab sounds awesome! Rocktron Velocity -> cab or I usually use a Tech 21 Power Engine 60. Try it into a tube power amp - real tasty. Its how I run it and have to no plans to change.

 

But FRFR sounds great too - setup is a breeze  pop into the PA and call it a day. The versatility is the beauty of the HD  series, you really can't say one is better without going into personal preference.

 

-B

[Smashcraaft]

A very good reason to use FRFR is, that you find mistakes in your sound-design which could otherwise appear only on a perfect PA. But this unknown mistakes would surely break your neck in this case (f.e. perfect PA on perfect stage in front of perfect shaped female nymphomaniacs … and your sound is crap)!

 

I got this case at the moment with my FR-sounds, created on a cheaper headphone. I plugged my HD into a Yamaha DBR12 and was very unhappy suprised about what was going on onto the highs ans lows  :ph34r:

[Smashcraaft]

that's why L6 gave us also the "first aid kit", ie the GEQ

Sure, but it would lead me to headaches, if I would have to filter out a frequency I first do have to locate and otherwise have to handle the GEQ correctly (under time pressure). I feel much better, to have my sounds as proper as possible. And so I like the advantages of a FRFR-System.

[mcbeddall]

A very good reason to use FRFR is, that you find mistakes in your sound-design which could otherwise appear only on a perfect PA. But this unknown mistakes would surely break your neck in this case (f.e. perfect PA on perfect stage in front of perfect shaped female nymphomaniacs … and your sound is crap)!

 

I got this case at the moment with my FR-sounds, created on a cheaper headphone. I plugged my HD into a Yamaha DBR12 and was very unhappy suprised about what was going on onto the highs ans lows :ph34r:

It has less to do with the headphones and more to do with the way we perceive frequencies at louder volumes

You almost always need a completely different eq on live patches vs headphone patches

[joel_brown]

The PODHD can run perfectly well into a guitar amp and cab or FRFR.  I'm glad Line6 gave us the choice.  Each method has it's merits.  I still plug my PODHD into a tube guitar amp and cab because right now that sounds better.  But as soon as I get my FRFR system sounding the same the tube amp is history.  I'm tired of lugging around all that bulk and weight.

[Smashcraaft]

But as soon as I get my FRFR system sounding the same the tube amp is history.  I'm tired of lugging around all that bulk and weight.

How far are you on that way and for how long?

[joel_brown]

I'm close.  Clean, Edge, Blues'y Rock tones I'm happy with, but the high gain (which I use the most) just isn't quite there yet.  When I first got the PODHD I struggled for months.  After reading a lot of great info from everyone on here and some stuff I learned on my own too, it's a ton easier. 

[cruisinon2]

that's one of the reasons why I really loved in the past the bean mounted on a mic stand close to me and connected to a floorboard..

but owning a Variax forced me to choose the HD500 format

No worries...soon enough we'll all have RFID chips in our heads, and you'll just be able to think "roll off the mids a little", and POOF! L6 can call it "InstEQ". ;)

[Smashcraaft]

HighGain is my problem, too. So I will start to download CustomTones optimized for my Humbucker (emg 81) now.

If they are proper sounding and well designed I will use them to create by MidGain and Crunch-Sounds.

That should work because of the HighGain seems to have the biggest traps (for me).

[Old-Rocker]

Ok,I really love these conversations/topics it takes me back to a former life,(which at my age i'm very pleased to say i can still remember :lol: ),when i was a sales rep & part owner of a small hi-fi company & we would pontificate about stuff like this forever.

So if this gets really boring just ignore me. :)

What has started me thinking about this,is 2 or 3 days of playing through our Yam DSR 115 active speakers at home,cranking them as much as i can get away with while still retaining a wife.

So i'm saying all of the following from a live/gigging in pubs etc. perspective,where Combo guitar amps rule :),

I doubt that any of the affordable semi-pro 2/3 way active stage/monitor type boxes(like ours above) are truly Flat response,without running through an outboard DBX type unit to correct the response,so we're into eq adjusting at once.

Next am i correct in my assumption that the modeled Amps/Cabs in a 500X,are trying to faithfully recreate the actual sound/frequencies of the original products,they're modeled on?if so what's the point in putting the signal through Full Range cabs with X-over & speaker configurations,which have no relevance to the original product,or am i missing something & need to adjust my ideas?(serious question) :) .

I'm sure i'm not getting anything like the best out of my 500X into our Yams,but at this stage(to me) it just dosen't sound convincing,until i introduce my Combo amp into the mix,but i'll keep at it,because i'm determined not to use a Valve Combo(which i have at present)for future gigging,with 500X.

Sorry for rambling on,but one of the advantages of being old & retired(sort of)is having time to ramble on :D

A note to Smashcraaft,have you listened to the KS digital(made in Germany) stage/monitor systems,probably the nearest thing to a flat response pro-product i've ever heard,but a lot more expensive,than a Velocity & Cab.

Cheers.

 

[Smashcraaft]

A note to Smashcraaft,have you listened to the KS digital(made in Germany) stage/monitor systems,probably the nearest thing to a flat response pro-product i've ever heard,but a lot more expensive,than a Velocity & Cab.

No, I do not even know the brand. My problem is not the combination of HD (PREs) > Velocity > Cab, where I´m up to 95 % satisfied with my sound, my problem is my FR Yamaha DBR12 which seems to me to be to much FR for my tweaking skills. But hopefully CustomTone will help me in understanding, how to create a usable HighGain-Sound. 

[Old-Rocker]

Hi,Smashcraaft,i don't know how to post a link but if you look this up,it should get you there,very professional,amazing audio.

 

http://www.ksaudio.com

[mcbeddall]

The point of an FrFr speaker is that the guitar cab has already been modelled so you want your amplifying method to be as neutral as possible so that you are hearing what the modeller intended without any colouration from poweramps and guitar speakers

The upshot of this is that if you are happy with your sound out of an on stage FrFr you can send a feed direct to the house pa instead of micing up a cab , and be safe in the knowledge that the crowd are hearing exactly what you're hearing on stage

Well that's the theory at least

Another bonus is that acoustics sound better through FrFr

[joel_brown]

And it weighs less...  I'm getting tired of lugging around Marshall JCM900 heads and 4x12 cabs.  What was that beer commercial "Tastes great, less filling".  That's what FRFR is.

[Old-Rocker]

The point of an FrFr speaker is that the guitar cab has already been modelled so you want your amplifying method to be as neutral as possible so that you are hearing what the modeller intended without any colouration from poweramps and guitar speakers

The upshot of this is that if you are happy with your sound out of an on stage FrFr you can send a feed direct to the house pa instead of micing up a cab , and be safe in the knowledge that the crowd are hearing exactly what you're hearing on stage

Well that's the theory at least

Another bonus is that acoustics sound better through FrFr

Luckily for me,i'm very limited in my playing & taste,so getting an  an acoustic guitar sound,is never going to be an issue. :) .

[DunedinDragon]

I can't answer for anyone else but I made the transition to FRFR last year for one specific reason.  Because I play a range of styles I've long sought after a setup that would allow me to capture the clarity and articulation I get in a recording studio with studio monitors but in a live environment.  You can get reasonably close with guitar amps, but those last few inches are just not there, primarily because of the way guitar cabinets are constructed.  Imagine playing a well recorded studio track through a guitar cabinet versus some nice high-fidelity stereo speakers and you get a sense of the difference.

 

Once you experience that kind of clarity and precision in recording it's hard to not crave it in your live performances...at least it was for me.  Once you achieve it live it's hard to imagine not having it.  As my bandmates keep telling me now, it's an entirely different experience for them as well to hear it, because that level of accuracy and fidelity is not something they've ever heard before on stage.

 

It's probably not as dramatic if most everything you play is overdriven or has a lot of distortion.  But even then my bandmates are impressed with how the guitar just "jumps out at you" through the mix (their words, not mine).  The clean jazzy sounds are like those you would hear on a high end stereo setup, and even the crunchy, compressed stuff sounds very precise like the original recordings from people like Townsend or early Rolling Stones.

 

Bottom line for me it wasn't about seeking out tones I had in the past, but more about seeking out tones I had achieved in studio recordings.

[CipherHost]

No worries...soon enough we'll all have RFID chips in our heads, and you'll just be able to think "roll off the mids a little", and POOF! L6 can call it "InstEQ". ;)

 

https://www.ted.com/talks/tan_le_a_headset_that_reads_your_brainwaves?language=en

[pianoguyy]

The reason you go with an FRFR instead of an amp is: 

 

The HD provides the tone that your amp would give. It's called amp modeling. 

 

A Fender model will never sound like a Fender amp when played through a Marshall amp. 

 

Guitar amps have their own "personality", which is why we buy things like a Marshall to Rock out and a Fender to Blues out and a Dual Rectifier when we want to get Caught in a Mosh. 

FRFR have no personality. They are bland and boring, but that allows you to hear "true tone". What you put into it is what you get out of it. If you put a Marshall into it, you get a Marshall out of it. If you put a Fender into it, you get a Fender out of it. 

 

If you were to look at yourself in a mirror, you would see??? 

If it is a carnival mirror, you will see all sorts of distortions. It is not the same vision if you are looking through a high-quality, flat mirror. 

Think of guitar amps as the carnival mirror. 

[Brazzy]

The PODHD can run perfectly well into a guitar amp and cab or FRFR.  I'm glad Line6 gave us the choice.  Each method has it's merits.  I still plug my PODHD into a tube guitar amp and cab because right now that sounds better.  But as soon as I get my FRFR system sounding the same the tube amp is history.  I'm tired of lugging around all that bulk and weight.

 

Wouldn't be great if you had all that power in something that fits comfortably in your pocket and all you need to carry is your guitar, lol. Someone's gotta be using something like that.

[mcbeddall]

It's definitely easier to get a warm sound through a conventional cab, but like others have said once you have your patches dialled in right the clarity is so much better , guitar amps to me sound like they have a thick blanket over them and using FrFr is like removing that blanket

[silverhead]

Wouldn't be great if you had all that power in something that fits comfortably in your pocket and all you need to carry is your guitar, lol. Someone's gotta be using something like that.

Not exactly state-of-the-art anymore, nor 'all that power', but still.....

 

http://line6.com/pocketpod/

[mcbeddall]

An app based thing would be cool, something with a few fx and a recorder you could put down ideas with by plugging your guitar into the phone

[Brazzy]

Not exactly state-of-the-art anymore, nor 'all that power', but still.....

 

http://line6.com/pocketpod/

 

Cool, I have Mobile In and can get some pretty good sounds out it but I can't figure out how to control the volume pedals, wah's and other parameters, lol.

[BillBee]

There is a way to do that with the pocket pod IIRC. Shoot over to moltenvoltage.com pretty cool stuff.

[jeremybnz]

Horses for courses, if you want the sound you get in your headphones from the HD running it's amp sims and cabs then a proper FRFR speaker is the way to go, if you want the sound of a real cab and amp then get a cab and amp :)

 

For simplicity I've gone with the stagesource L2T and HD500 after years of lugging around a tube amp and can and large pedalboard, loving the portability of it and with some tweaking based on advice from here and meambobbo's site it's sounding great! 

[CipherHost]

A note to Smashcraaft,have you listened to the KS digital(made in Germany) stage/monitor systems,probably the nearest thing to a flat response pro-product i've ever heard,but a lot more expensive,than a Velocity & Cab.

Cheers.

 

Have you seen the price list? Serious cash.

[AlexKenivel]

It's not a device to use with a guitar amp, it's a device to emulate a guitar amp and speaker, so you need a full range speaker to get the full, unadulterated (mostly) picture.

 

I've been using my 500x through amp/cab for almost a year now because I too was unhappy with my high gain tones through an active PA speaker.

 

Through lots of recording attempts and advice from this forum and others, I had found a way to carve out better high gain sounds. So I decided to get an Alto TS112a and those recording tones translate very well.

[Smashcraaft]

Through lots of recording attempts and advice from this forum and others, I had found a way to carve out better high gain sounds. So I decided to get an Alto TS112a and those recording tones translate very well.

Any general experiences you like to share with us?  ;)

Maybe you'd done this before and have a link?

 

Or maybe you got advices for us on setting the global EQ for some kinds of PUs?

[Old-Rocker]

So,would it be a reasonable summary to say that guys using FRFR are replicating(or as near as possible) what they're hearing from the 500X in a studio/home recording situation & carrying that into a Live/Gigging situation for consistency & a more faithfull reproduction of the models?

Where as people using Guitar Amps are simply making a Guitar sound in a more traditional(old fashioned?)way,like me :) ?

[DunedinDragon]

I think that's a reasonable summary for some of us.  For others I think it's merely a factor of wanting to simplify their stage setup.  Remember FRFR also refers to those that are simply plugging into the 500X and running direct to the PA.

[AlexKenivel]

Any general experiences you like to share with us? ;)

A lot of the general info I got was from Meambobbo, Fortiori Johnny, hurghanico, pfsmith0, and others I forget..

 

For a while I've been using dual amps to phase out unwanted frequencies but I'm trying to do this with the single amp now and EQs.

 

Experiment, tinker, tweak over and over,but be sure to give your ears a rest every once in a while.

 

Design presets at LOUD volumes.

 

Maybe you'd done this before and have a link?

 

Done what before exactly? Links like Custom tone? No..

 

Or maybe you got advices for us on setting the global EQ for some kinds of PUs?

I used to set up my GEQ to cut everything below 100hz and above a variable amount (usually in the 8khz range or around there I think) to simulate how guitar speakers cut the extreme high and low frequencies but pickups had nothing to do with it..

 

Now a days I don't really bother with the GEQ anymore, and rely on the Low Cut parameter and EQs post amp

[cruisinon2]

I think that's a reasonable summary for some of us. For others I think it's merely a factor of wanting to simplify their stage setup. Remember FRFR also refers to those that are simply plugging into the 500X and running direct to the PA.

Or both...I'm running the L2T as a monitor and the POD straight to the PA as well. No mics, no cabs, no mess. Sets up and tears down in 10 minutes, if that. Almost takes longer to get the guitars out of their cases, lol

[Old-Rocker]

Or both...I'm running the L2T as a monitor and the POD straight to the PA as well. No mics, no cabs, no mess. Sets up and tears down in 10 minutes, if that. Almost takes longer to get the guitars out of their cases, lol

Hi,cruisinon2.Would using Dual Amp/signal Paths require 2 of these for stereo operation?

[cruisinon2]

Hi,cruisinon2.Would using Dual Amp/signal Paths require 2 of these for stereo operation?

Not 100% sure what you're asking, but I'll take a stab. I run mono. Just the one L2T, and one XLR going to the desk...but I use lots of dual amp patches. Usually one clean and one dirty, and I use the expression pedal to transition between them, without having to switch patches. So a dual amp patch doesn't require 2 amps (or cabs) per se, unless you actually want to run true stereo. That is usually a mess live, unless the planets are aligned just right. Not worth the trouble for me.

[mcbeddall]

Yeah I think on stage It's a bit of a luxury , might sound great here and there but lost in the mix most of the time, sometimes the sound guy might insist on running direct back to his board in stereo, I guess it gives him something to play with but I'm not sure any of the audience ever noticed I'd gone all dolby

[Old-Rocker]

I've looked at the L2T/M rear panel & it has L/R inputs,so does it sum the L/R signal to mono?,if so do the amps blend ok in single drivers?,or does it get muddled.

I suppose i'm trying to ask is running dual amps into 1 x L2 usable or does it require 2 speakers to get the true effect,

now that i'm typing this i can see my original question wasn't clear, & i suspect i can guess the answer :)

[mcbeddall]

The speaker is mono yes, it only has 1 speaker and 1 horn you would need 2 l2m speakers to get true stereo

I can't speak for the dual amp thing but both amp models would be coming from the same speaker so I'm not sure how distinct the 2 amps would be in relation to each other

But if you use 2 amps to give a thicker sound then yeah it will still sound thick once you've dialled in your patch to the speaker of course

[cruisinon2]

I've looked at the L2T/M rear panel & it has L/R inputs,so does it sum the L/R signal to mono?,if so do the amps blend ok in single drivers?,or does it get muddled.

I suppose i'm trying to ask is running dual amps into 1 x L2 usable or does it require 2 speakers to get the true effect,

now that i'm typing this i can see my original question wasn't clear, & i suspect i can guess the answer :)

Now I get it...you're looking to hear two distinct amps simultaneously. I don't use the dual amp patches like that. It's one tone or the other. I set it up this way because I loathe abrupt patch changes, and the drop out (albeit a short one) that always accompanies the switch...especially going from clean to dirty, or vice versa. A dual amp patch plus the expression pedal allows for a seamless transition from one to the other, a gradual morph, if you will.

 

But if your goal is to hear two distinct amp tones together, you really have no choice but to run stereo. Otherwise you'll always be hearing a blend of the two...you need the physical separation. Can't get that with one box no matter who's making it, or how nice a toy it is.

 

I'm not sure how feasible that would be live, anyway. If you're running straight to the PA, to get the effect you want, you're gonna have the two amps panned hard left and right. The two sides of the room are hearing different things. Stereo FX will get lost this way too. If you pan everything up the middle, now you've lost the two separate tones, and may as well have just left everything mono in the first place.

 

For recording, this kind of set-up can be used to great effect...live, not so much. The sound will change depending on where the listener is standing. Gets ugly fast.