'amp in the room' setting

[shanecgriffo]

line 6 you've come this far and we love helix.. but i wonder if by next year you can give us an 'amp in the room' setting? One that bypasses the mic modelling and includes whatever other magic processing it needs and a little control button in there somewhere that allows you to choose between 'amp in the room' sound and 'standard' sound.? 😉👌

[DunedinDragon]

Well, that might be doable if people could actually define what they mean by "amp in the room".  Ask 100 people you'll get 100 different answers.

[Dshow]

I don't know what you are looking for but if you move the mic away from the cab you have more room.

Other than that you could achieve more "Room" with the right reverb settings.

[MonkeyXT]

Early Reflection setting helps with this also.

[PeterHamm]

You are also, possibly, simply looking for more of an amp experience, in which case, at the very least, get a power amp and regular guitar cab instead of FRFR.

Oh, and if you don't turn it as loud as an amp, it ain't gonna make the hairs on your arms stand up, so do that, too.

[shanecgriffo]

no sorry.. i mean an amp sitting there in front of you. not an amp in a room space

[shanecgriffo]

i was just wondering if it is something that could be done Peter, through the modelling technology as i'm often reading that modellers model the sound of a mic'd/recorded guitar cab. then why not just a raw amp.??

[shanecgriffo]

the sound of a raw amp coming out whatever speaker you have.. i'm sure it would be a popular option to have

[shanecgriffo]

i mean it's pretty close now.. and sounds great .. i just still imagine it could sound a bit more 'immediate' maybe

[shanecgriffo]

and if it could be tweaked in software i'd rather that, than having to go buy a power amp and guitar cab 😉

[PeterHamm]

i was just wondering if it is something that could be done Peter, through the modelling technology as i'm often reading that modellers model the sound of a mic'd/recorded guitar cab. then why not just a raw amp.??

 

use the amp without a cab and that's exactly what you have if you plug it into a real powered guitar (not FRFR) speaker.

[silverhead]

and if it could be tweaked in software i'd rather that, than having to go buy a power amp and guitar cab

But what will you use to monitor the sound? Headphones? PA Speakers? They, in turn, will colour the sound in their own way, just like a guitar cab/speaker do. And they won't sound exactly like a guitar cab/speaker.

 

At the end of the signal processing chain there HAS to be a cab/speaker of some sort to produce the analog audio signal that the human ear hears. There IS NO SOUND without it. If it's not a physical guitar power amp and cab/speaker then it's something else that does not sound exactly like the physical guitar cab/speaker. The way to get the 'amp in the room' sound is to...... well ....have an amp in the room.

 

If a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound?

[shanecgriffo]

sorry silverhead.. i'm meaning into p.a speakers.. that's what i use.. i realize they won't all sound alike and will change the sound somewhat,but that is the same with any sound you put thru it , so maybe a moot point.. i'm just pondering wheter this is possible, the raw amp sound thru a p.a speaker. .. now this isn't necesarily for live use i'm thinking.. just playing at home and having it sound like a real amp sitting right there. i'm just thinking it is probably possible with the software.. one day

[cruisinon2]

i was just wondering if it is something that could be done Peter, through the modelling technology as i'm often reading that modellers model the sound of a mic'd/recorded guitar cab. then why not just a raw amp.??

You can have that any time you want. Don't use cab or mic models. Amp model only into an actual amp and cabinet, or combo. Plenty of players running rigs like that.

[silverhead]

...... i'm just pondering wheter this is possible, the raw amp sound thru a p.a speaker. .. ...

 

I guess I don't understand what you mean by the raw amp sound. Until the signal is put through a speaker of some sort there is no sound, so I assume you mean the audio signal (not sound) before it hits the guitar amp's power amp and cab/speaker.

 

As stated a couple of times already you get that now by using just an amp model (no cab/mic) and routing it through whatever speaker system you want - a physical guitar amp/cab, or a PA system, or whatever.

 

But if you consider the 'raw amp sound' to include the sound of the guitar amp's power amp section and cab/speaker then there's only one way to capture that raw sound to model or record it - you mic the amp. That's what Line 6 does with their cab/mic modeling, and that's what recording engineers do in the studio. The guitar player is in his room with the amp, and the 'amp in the room' sound from his cab/speaker is what you want to capture. How does that signal get to the recording desk? It's mic'd. No mic, no sound except as perceived by any animal (including us) who happens to be standing within earshot of the physical amp.

[BigRalphN]

sorry silverhead.. i'm meaning into p.a speakers.. that's what i use.. i realize they won't all sound alike and will change the sound somewhat,but that is the same with any sound you put thru it , so maybe a moot point.. i'm just pondering wheter this is possible, the raw amp sound thru a p.a speaker. .. now this isn't necesarily for live use i'm thinking.. just playing at home and having it sound like a real amp sitting right there. i'm just thinking it is probably possible with the software.. one day

Pull your pa speakers dead center in front of you

[bjnette]

At first I thought that a delay at about 20msecs gives a roomish sense to it right after the amp.

There is also the Room reverb which would also help give a room feel.

 

But then I understood what you were describing, 

 

When Line 6 model an Amp they should include a room mic and then the user has the option to add the room mic and blend as desired.

 

You should put it up on the Idea Scale.

[roscoe5]

Kemper has something called Pure Cabinet to address this. Maybe the OP could use a little advice on how to get closer to this.

 

Since it's a global setting to address "harsh upper frequencies" and "smoothing out problem frequencies", it sounds like a very specific global type eq function.  That will have a "pronounced effect on crunchy and high gain rigs...clean rigs will not be affected".

 

My first thought is high cuts to the 7k-10k range on the gainy amps.  But the Kemper Pure Cab sounds like it's doing a bit more than that.

 

So maybe someone with better ears than I can tell whats going on in the videos.

 

[MonkeyXT]

For the above you can run a dual cab, and use a combination of close mic on one, and something further away (and likely different type) on the other - the result gives dimension without adding a layer of texture like a reverb would.

[PeterHamm]

When Line 6 model an Amp they should include a room mic and then the user has the option to add the room mic and blend as desired.

 

Add a little room verb. Problem solved.

[mdmayfield]

Modeling a guitar cabinet without including a microphone is like trying to take a photograph without using a camera. It just doesn't work that way!

[DunedinDragon]

See...this is what I meant.  Ask 100 people what "amp in the room" sounds like and you'll get 100 different answers.

[PeterHamm]

Modeling a guitar cabinet without including a microphone is like trying to take a photograph without using a camera. It just doesn't work that way!

So much this.

[bjnette]

The Kemper Pure tone thing works for sure but I think attenuating Global EQ high shelf to emulate an amp would help.

 

Visually a FFT display of many of the Amps and cabs used in the Helix is probably available after a search.

Then set up a FFT display of Helix with same Amp model and cab and use global EQ to match the wave form

 

Or know that most amp and cab dont produce much over 15khz some even lower and attenuate global EQ around there.

Also most Amps without a tone control are a bell curve output centering in the mid mids.

[bjnette]

Add a little room verb. Problem solved.

Or add a room mic that is phase proof. Unlikely until all Amps are re profiled.

[roscoe5]

As others mentioned above, dual cabs / IRs of the same cab with different mics plus a high cut in the 7k-12k range on the cab blocks helps me get closer to AIR sound, especially in headphones.

[roscoe5]

Or add a room mic that is phase proof. Unlikely until all Amps are re profiled.

Funny you say that. I spent some time yesterday with Helix amps into Amplitube 4 cab room, which allows 2 mics on a cab (you can add another cab with 2 more mics if you wanted) and has a "stereo pair" of U87 room mics plus different environment types. It certainly did give an AIR representation. Pretty cool for jamming in headphones.

 

Here are a couple of short clips of Helix Plexi Brit and Cali IV Lead into Amplitube 4 Cab room with the U87 on and a venue selected.

 

Pardon the hack AC/DC and metalized 80's riffs  ;)

 

https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/sets/helix-into-at4-cab-room

[roscoe5]

Ha, sorry. I promise I'll quit hijacking this thread. But to further demo bjnette's point...

Helix Fatality amp into two parallel Studiocat Freidman 212 IR's into AT4 Cab Room with room mics and venue only. This should represent the Helix amp, a good pair of IR's, cascaded into AT4's U87 IR's and small studio reverb. A little DI of the Helix signal was mixed in. I was in headphones and actually had to look down at my room amp to see if it was on ;)

 

Sorry, I couldn't find a way to just get the room mics with no reverb effect in AT4.

Of course you can select bigger and smaller venues. But I think this demo's the point of adding virtual "room mics". Not sure if it's really necessary or desirable :)

Baseline, No AT4 room
https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/helix-fatality-into-friedman-212-dual-ir-no-at4-room?in=michael-potts-995394155/sets/helix-into-at4-cab-room

Baseline + Helix Chamber Reverb 40% Mix
https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/helix-fatality-into-friedman-212-dual-ir-into-hx-chamber-verb-no-at4-room

AT4 Booth Room
https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/helix-fatality-into-friedman-212-dual-ir-plus-at4-booth-room?in=michael-potts-995394155/sets/helix-into-at4-cab-room

AT4 Studio Room
https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/helix-fatality-into-friedman-212-dual-ir-plus-at4-room

 

So to me, just a little mix of the Helix chamber reverb added after the IR's gave a good AIR feel without being too verby.  I probably wouldn't have tried Chamber reverb if it wasn't for this thread, so thanks.

 

Anyway, it was good fun and a nice break in the work day.  Now back to your regularly scheduled discussions...

[hideout]

Modeling a guitar cabinet without including a microphone is like trying to take a photograph without using a camera. It just doesn't work that way!

Yes indeed! Then, there's the fact that not only do different microphones 'hear' things differently, you'd also have to find one that hears things the way your ears do. Good luck with that!

[roscoe5]

Now if I could just wire my eardrums into my DAW (Neo's brain stem jack plate) I could IR my cab through them ;)

[roscoe5]

Appologies, apparently this is now an obsession of mine and a great topic from the OP.

 

Inspired by what is going on in AT4 Cab Room with the condenser room mics and venue (reverb) effects on them.

 

I tried to replicate the AT4 Cab Room condenser room mics by splitting the path between a 412 Uber V30 Dual Cab block with two different close mics (D409 and R121) and a parallel Dual Cab block with C87 and C67 mics into Helix Chamber reverb.

 

Sound clip

https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/helix-fatality-into-two-hx-dual-uber-v30-cabs-into-hx-chamber-verb

 

Made a Playlist of all the sound clips from today's experiments.

https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/sets/helix-into-at4-cab-room

 

Preset uploaded to CustomTone

http://line6.com/customtone/tone/2243614/

 

I'm not sure how practical it really is to use this preset and 4-mic config. But it was fun and sounds good in headphones. It's kind of like a wet/dry patch with the wet effect (verb) only on the "room mics" cab block.

 

Might work well with Firehawk 1500 and the appropriate outputs selected for each "Multi" path.

 

 

 

PS: Now I'm kinda wishing we had Dual IR blocks like we have Dual Cab Blocks. I suppose they would only be 1024 samples per side.

 

I guess I can mix down a pair of IR's for each single IR block in RW mixIR2.

 

 

Soundcloud clip of Helix Fatality Into Friedman 212 Dual IRs RE20 Cab C414 Room Chamber Verb. The signal is split so that the RE20 IR is dry and the C414 is wet with Chamber Reverb simulating amp in room.

https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/helix-fatality-into-friedman-212-dual-irs-re20-cab-c414-room-chamber-verb

[roscoe5]

At first I thought that a delay at about 20msecs gives a roomish sense to it right after the amp.

There is also the Room reverb which would also help give a room feel.

 

But then I understood what you were describing,

 

When Line 6 model an Amp they should include a room mic and then the user has the option to add the room mic and blend as desired.

 

You should put it up on the Idea Scale.

This makes a lot of sense. I think AT4 is has a parallel split post cab to their cab IR's/models into their room condenser mic IR's/models with maybe some delay/verb effects for distance and venue.  You can mix and solo/mute all three mics, plus change the phasing.  This was interesting.

 

While AT4 cabs themselves may or may not be as "good" as HX Cabs and/or 3rd party IR's, I think they've nailed the room effect with the room mics and venues. You can hear this in the Helix Amp Into AT4 cab clips.

 

https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/helix-fatality-into-at4-recto-412-plus-room

 

https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/helix-fatality-into-at4-engl-xxl-and-cab-room-mics

 

https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/helix-fatality-into-at4-engl-xxl-and-cab-room-mics-large-venue

 

https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/helix-plexi-brit-into-at4-red-pig-cab-plus-room?in=michael-potts-995394155/sets/helix-into-at4-cab-room

 

https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/helix-caliiv-lead-at-recto-412-room?in=michael-potts-995394155/sets/helix-into-at4-cab-room

 

 

 

In Helix, I could see this materializing a couple of ways...

• A reverb block with various room reverbs created from condenser mic impulse responses and a mic distance adjustment from 0 to maybe 20+ft. This may be useful for more than cabs.
• A room mic on the HX cab blocks with mic type and distance and/or room type.

I don't mind posting it up on IS. I'll let this stew for a couple of days before posting anything on IdeaScale. 

 

Any other input or ideas for the post?  Anyone else (OP?) feel free to post it up.

[Joepeggio]

A perfectly flat measurement type mic?

[hideout]

A perfectly flat measurement type mic?

I don't think our ears hear things perfectly flat.

[cruisinon2]

I don't think our ears hear things perfectly flat.

Not even close...and the older you get, the worse it gets, even without loud hobbies (or vocations for the pro players among us).

[Adam--]

I don't think our ears hear things perfectly flat.

 

But if one had a 100% perfectly flat mic, and a 100% perfectly flat PA, one's ears would 'distort' it the same way they do as when one is in the room w/an actual amp.  I think that's what the OP is shooting for, not reverb or a modeling a 'sense of space'.

 

You can get bogged down trying to find the perfect mic, position, distance, axis, etc and just think 'dammit, how about NO mic!  I just wanna hear the @#$@ cab!'  

 

In fact, that's exactly why I decided to go the modeling/FRFR route myself.  I got the tone I was looking for w/a tube amp and a closed back 2x12 cab.  For me, it was perfect! Then I tried micing it... and years of tone searching were destroyed.  The mic (and placement) was as influential to the overall tone as any cab or pre-amp.  Sure, it sounded great in the room but what was caught on 'tape' or in the PA was totally different.  That's when I decided I needed a good tone that translated to being reproduced better.

[Joepeggio]

What I mean by flat mic is..... We hear what an amp speaker puts into a room. The flat mic measures that and Helix replicates that into an FRFR. So sound coming from FrFr / PA is the closest to actual amp without mic coloration.

 

Maybe a way to "record" the movement of the speaker with a laser measurement device. And speaker cab vibration. It seems to me the cab puts the "amp in the room" more than just the speaker. Thinking outside the box and possibilities.

 

I think the helix sounds as good as my real amps. I find it a volume thing and boosting some low end.

[njglover]

Modeling a guitar cabinet without including a microphone is like trying to take a photograph without using a camera. It just doesn't work that way!

 

Exactly. How is one to capture the "amp in a room" tone without a microphone? If you are expecting someone to exactly model the movement of the speaker and the fluctuations of the air created by said speaker and how the speaker grill fabric (or metal) alters said vibrations and then how your specific room reflects said vibrations including how the reflections interact with each other... well, just ain't gonna happen. I doubt even a super computer has enough power to process that without crazy latency.

[BrockDavisson]

Just set the Early Reflection on the cabs to something you like and that is suppose to give you a feel as if an amp is in the room with you and not behind glass in the studio like the mics make it seem.

[HonestOpinion]

Just set the Early Reflection on the cabs to something you like and that is suppose to give you a feel as if an amp is in the room with you and not behind glass in the studio like the mics make it seem.

 

The Early Reflection parameter is a great way to get a bit more of an amp in the room feel although I find extremely low settings are more than enough for my tastes.