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s4n1ty

Mark IV model loss of gain after extended playing session

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Quick question guys. I've noticed when i use the mark IV amp model that if I've been using the patch for extended periods (lets say 30 minutes plus) it start to die as if I've turned the volume down on my guitar. Does this happen to anyone else? If i change patches and change back to the patch with the mark IV amp model all the gain comes back. Ive only noticed this with the mark IV amp modal which is kind of annoying as it's my favourite model

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That is my favorite as well and I play on that model for hours at a time. I have not experienced that issue. 

 

What firmware are you running and what guitars are you using?

 

Try running your guitar through the aux input to see if you get the same result. 

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Perhaps Line 6 modelled a bad preamp tube?

=]

I kid...

 

I suspect you'll find that you have either a volume block or some other parameter(s) feeding into the input gain side of your MK IV which tie to Expression pedal #1 in your preset, and the issue with the EXP1 value jumping down to 1% is affecting your sound - that would explain what you describe, and the fact that jumping away and back to that preset fixes the sound.

 

The issue is well-documented, but to simplify, you can either bypass/disable that block to test it out - you can also try clearing that block and re-creating the volume block, as this has apparently solved this for some (not me, but worth a try).

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This amp is my favorite and I haven't noticed anything like this at all. Although from day to day I do notice subtle differences, but that's unlikely to be the fault of Helix.

 

One thing to consider, in addition to what Monkey XT said above, is the possibility of a perception phenomenon and/or ear fatigue. But when you say switching to a different preset and then back again fixes the problem kind of kills that idea. Is it an obvious, sudden change? Is it gradual and subtle? Or is it gradual and obvious over the time it occurs?

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Another favorite vote here. No abnormal behavior at all.

 

I saw a video/review here about a month ago (im sure you guys did too) and the kid said how he just didnt dig the MKIV or something to that effect (even though he was a metal player - i dont think he really knew how to dial it) and im thinking "what? this is like one of the best ones"  MKIV might be the best amp simp ive ever played thru. In fact i know it is.

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If it weren't for the fact that you say this is only happening on one model my first guess would have been that if you are playing through a powered speaker it is starting to have a failure. I have had failing powered speakers that displayed this exact behavior. After they started to warm up the volume would start to die and the tone would change as well, often becoming somewhat distorted.

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Quick question guys. I've noticed when i use the mark IV amp model that if I've been using the patch for extended periods (lets say 30 minutes plus) it start to die as if I've turned the volume down on my guitar. Does this happen to anyone else? If i change patches and change back to the patch with the mark IV amp model all the gain comes back. Ive only noticed this with the mark IV amp modal which is kind of annoying as it's my favourite model

Any updates?

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Perhaps Line 6 modelled a bad preamp tube?

=]

I kid...

 

I suspect you'll find that you have either a volume block or some other parameter(s) feeding into the input gain side of your MK IV which tie to Expression pedal #1 in your preset, and the issue with the EXP1 value jumping down to 1% is affecting your sound - that would explain what you describe, and the fact that jumping away and back to that preset fixes the sound.

 

The issue is well-documented, but to simplify, you can either bypass/disable that block to test it out - you can also try clearing that block and re-creating the volume block, as this has apparently solved this for some (not me, but worth a try).

 

In theory you would be correct but i don't use any expression pedal blocks, the only volume based block is a ts808. 

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This amp is my favorite and I haven't noticed anything like this at all. Although from day to day I do notice subtle differences, but that's unlikely to be the fault of Helix.

 

One thing to consider, in addition to what Monkey XT said above, is the possibility of a perception phenomenon and/or ear fatigue. But when you say switching to a different preset and then back again fixes the problem kind of kills that idea. Is it an obvious, sudden change? Is it gradual and subtle? Or is it gradual and obvious over the time it occurs?

The change in gain is gradual, and i normally notice it when tracking guitars. The actual tone doesn't change apart from the amount of gain. I normally notice it in between take when theres no other sound and i'm about to tune and get ready for another take and i notice it has no balls. then reloading the patch restores all it's heavenly glory.

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The change in gain is gradual, and i normally notice it when tracking guitars. The actual tone doesn't change apart from the amount of gain. I normally notice it in between take when theres no other sound and i'm about to tune and get ready for another take and i notice it has no balls. then reloading the patch restores all it's heavenly glory.

 

About the only thing I can think of is to try the preset in a different preset slot if you haven't already. If that doesn't work, try the preset in a different slot by rebuilding it from scratch.

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Hey guys, i'm still having the same issue. If anyone is willing to try an experiment... If you build a simple mark IV lead patch with a ts 808 and both gain stages around about 6.5 or higher plug a guitar in and play for about 5 or 10 mins then lower the volume and leave the guitar plugged in for an hour and dont play it, come back and have a strum and see what happens? Alternatively i could send someone my patch and see what happens?

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firmware 2.20 also btw

 

The "Helix" app and firmware version are now 2.21 for the latest for the Helix (for the moment...).

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Firmware version 2.21 is the latest for the Helix (for the moment...).

 

yes, but also this has been an issue for me since at least 2.10 but i'll update and try it again

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Your Preset may be corrupted. After you updated to the latest firmware version, be sure to perform the Rebuild Preset Procedure by Holding FS 9&10 while powering up the Helix (as described in the firmware installation instructions).

If the problem persists after you have reloaded your pre-existing Preset, try creating an entirely new Preset with the parameters you used in your previous Preset. If still no good, get the problematic Preset to Line 6 by submitting a Support Ticket (if you have not already done so).

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I'd be more than willing to load the patch, but I use the LT. I also use the Mk IV as my "base" tone and have never had the issues you describe.

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Quick update, i sent the patch to a person on the helix facebook group and he had the exact same results as me on firmware 2.21. I have  rebuilt and reset my patches more times than i can remember and it still persists. Basically it happens typically between 45 minutes onwards of the patch being loaded and has to stay on the patch the entire time, i could link to the fb discussion but i'm not sure if linking is allowed?

 

 

I'd be more than willing to load the patch, but I use the LT. I also use the Mk IV as my "base" tone and have never had the issues you describe.

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Linking is allowed of course.

 

Very odd. Only this patch? Have you tried rebuilding it from scratch w the exact same settings?

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Active pickups? New battery perhaps.

Good call, I would never have thought of suggesting that. 

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Zooey, i've re built my patches more time than I care to remember, every time i use the Mark IV lead model like clockwork after 45 minutes it dies... And yeah i use passive pick ups, I've opened a ticket with line6. Like i said before the exact same thing happened to another person yesterday after 45 minutes it dies. Try it yourself if you like? build your own high gain Mark IV patch and play around for a few minutes and leave it on that patch without changing it I firmly believe you will notice the gain  gradually disappear to nothing. It start to become noticeable at around 45 minutes and after an hour dies.        

 

   https://www.facebook.com/groups/line6helixusergroup/permalink/764227153760960/?comment_id=764288897088119&notif_t=group_comment&notif_id=1500705676699302

 

link to video on youtube

Very odd. Only this patch? Have you tried rebuilding it from scratch w the exact same settings?

 

 

Passive pickups dude

Good call, I would never have thought of suggesting that. 

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Well, I've got to preface this by saying I'm not exactly a fan of this amp model I can't seem to really make it sound good regardless no offense to anyone...

I set up a tube screamer with the gain on about 6.5, the mark 4 lead amp, raised the two lead gain drive whatever up to about 6.5 and used an ownHammer IR.... after waiting the hour I didn't notice any appreciable difference in the sound, ( after switching away from and coming back to the preset)

I'm on version 2.20, passive pickups (tonezone)

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Interesting

 

Well, I've got to preface this by saying I'm not exactly a fan of this amp model I can't seem to really make it sound good regardless no offense to anyone...
I set up a tube screamer with the gain on about 6.5, the mark 4 lead amp, raised the two lead gain drive whatever up to about 6.5 and used an ownHammer IR.... after waiting the hour I didn't notice any appreciable difference in the sound, ( after switching away from and coming back to the preset)
I'm on version 2.20, passive pickups (tonezone)

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I'm going to run the experiment again using just the amp/cab default... out of curiosity what are you doing in regards to that, are you using a separate cab? an impulse response?

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I'm going to run the experiment again using just the amp/cab default... out of curiosity what are you doing in regards to that, are you using a separate cab? an impulse response?

I normally use ir's but the only difference i can see in your patch is that i use the ts 808 as a clean boost with no gain and the level maxed. The patch in the video is a stock cab just for the purpose of sharing the file and not having to include ir's

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It goes back to normal if you change the batch and go right back? Is the gain or volume moving at all. I know its a different animal but my vetta, dt 50 and even pod hd would get a volume or gain drop. I would always try and set most of the knobs to zero. I don't know just an idea maybe.

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Ok...round 2

I made the adjustment with the tube screamer just acting as a clean boost, set it up left it for 3 hours.

On my particular unit there is no degradation or change of sound.

Switch to a preset right next to it and back, nothing zip NADA no change.

So I'm not sure if what you're experiencing is your preset is corrupted,or some other as of yet to be discovered factor??

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I did the same a shredzilla but mine was sat there for maybe 8 hours (today wasn't a guitar day) and I didn't notice any change in the sound when I played it then recalled the preset.

 

Craig

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This has been an interesting thread. Other people building the same patch don't experience the issue, but the one person who imported the original patch DID. Makes it sound very much like a problem with the patch, but evidently the OP can re-build the patch from scratch and the problem persists, which makes it sound not-so-much like the patch. A couple of questions: Has the Facebook guy who recreated the problem tried building the patch from scratch? Have you attempted building the patch in another slot? I'd imagine Line6 would be interested to see this patch, have they responded to your ticket yet?

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Good call, I would never have thought of suggesting that. 

whenever my tone sounds like crap.. I spend about an hour trying other things before I think of that but generally that's the case. 

It doesn't happen often but when it does it's like the OP described.. fine for about a half hour or so then turns to mush. 

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Ok...round 2

I made the adjustment with the tube screamer just acting as a clean boost, set it up left it for 3 hours.

On my particular unit there is no degradation or change of sound.

Switch to a preset right next to it and back, nothing zip NADA no change.

So I'm not sure if what you're experiencing is your preset is corrupted,or some other as of yet to be discovered factor??

 

 

I did the same a shredzilla but mine was sat there for maybe 8 hours (today wasn't a guitar day) and I didn't notice any change in the sound when I played it then recalled the preset.

 

Craig

 

I honestly don't know what to think, it happens in multiple slots and I've even factory re-set/deleted all my patches re upgraded done all the resets etc and it still persists.  Here is a link to the patch if anyone is interested https://www.dropbox.com/s/fbvtgq54356aedw/Mark%20IV%20Test.hlx?dl=0 . i don't expect anyone troubleshoot but i was thinking if someone could rebuild the patch manually exactly the same as my setting, if that doesn't work i think it may be an issue with my unit somewhere. I havent heard any news on my ticket progress but i will update here when i receive some news

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ok so after reading a few replies I had an idea and I'm fairly sure I've narrowed down the problem, which is a specific type of setting on the amp model. I typically run my bass and middle at zero which is demonstrated in the following pic https://www.dropbox.com/s/ypdg86eyr89vvwt/Screen%20Shot%202017-07-24%20at%207.16.43%20PM.png?dl=0 . I decided to change the bass and middle setting because i read somewhere that these act Pre gain or at least before the power amp and kind of act like a filter for the distorted sound before it hits the power amp. I changed the setting to this https://www.dropbox.com/s/v9pbcq661dzb5ee/Screen%20Shot%202017-07-24%20at%207.17.36%20PM.png?dl=0 I had this patch with the bass and middle at 5 going for a solid 2 hours with no noticeable change at all. i reverted my setting back to the previous with the bass and middle at 0 and guess what? the bug cam back... after an hour the patch was completely dead, so for lollipop and giggles i moved the bass slider slightly and the patch came right back to life. It seems there is a bug in having the bass and or middle at zero position, I'll try again with it at a very low setting and see what happens but i think this is where the bug is. I think this would it would explain why most people don't have a problem with it or don't notice it?

  • Upvote 2

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ok so after reading a few replies I had an idea and I'm fairly sure I've narrowed down the problem, which is a specific type of setting on the amp model. I typically run my bass and middle at zero which is demonstrated in the following pic https://www.dropbox.com/s/ypdg86eyr89vvwt/Screen%20Shot%202017-07-24%20at%207.16.43%20PM.png?dl=0 . I decided to change the bass and middle setting because i read somewhere that these act Pre gain or at least before the power amp and kind of act like a filter for the distorted sound before it hits the power amp. I changed the setting to this https://www.dropbox.com/s/v9pbcq661dzb5ee/Screen%20Shot%202017-07-24%20at%207.17.36%20PM.png?dl=0 I had this patch with the bass and middle at 5 going for a solid 2 hours with no noticeable change at all. i reverted my setting back to the previous with the bass and middle at 0 and guess what? the bug cam back... after an hour the patch was completely dead, so for lollipop and giggles i moved the bass slider slightly and the patch came right back to life. It seems there is a bug in having the bass and or middle at zero position, I'll try again with it at a very low setting and see what happens but i think this is where the bug is. I think this would it would explain why most people don't have a problem with it or don't notice it?

 

I can recall there being a very similar bug in one of the amps on the HD. I don't remember the specifics though.

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Interesting, and weird, but cool that you're narrowing it down. Still don't get why everyone wouldn't see that behavior with your patch that had those settings though.

 

Make sure to update your support ticket, so they know to look in that neck of the woods.

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Well I never,

 

I came back to my patch but turned bass and mid down to zero, when I came back a couple of hours later there was absolutely nothing, I gave the bass control a tweak and the sound came back!

 

s4n1ty I can confirm you're not going mad!

 

Craig

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definitely start a support ticket with Line 6 so they can dig into the code on that amp model. 

 

It makes me wonder if other amp models will do that with the bass/mid turned to zero. 

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