very annoyed..

[jabak]

Very insightful story ric. Good points there.

 

Crazy speed is not my ultimate goal. Not at all. I dont want to sound like a machine. Speed is just a tool like anything else. Lets say i got my picking up to 180 bpm 16th notes on a single string when playing simple stuff. Great! But if i cant go 180 when playing moderately to really complex stuff crossing strings or moving up and down the neck it doesn't really matter to me.

 

When I picked up my guitar for the first time in 15 years I decided to reboot and start from scratch. That's two years ago now. So where i'm at right now any input is of value to me. And i can't think of a better place than here in this forum to discuss the challenges i'm facing at the moment.

 

So i've set goals for my self. One of them is 160 bpm 16th notes when alternate picking moderately complex stuff. If i can do that then it's okay that I have to slow down when playing more complex stuff. Another goals is being able to sweep arpeggios cleanly and being able to alternate pick them comfortably. Speed is not a goal here. 

 

My laser focus on technique, tension, picking motion, posture, hand positioning etc. comes from my desire to be able to play what i want when i want to. The drawback of being so methodically as I am is that i think to much about every apsect of my playing. I guess I'll have to loosen up a bit and just play. 

[MonkeyXT]

I think you're especially right at the last; I think the goal of working all the nuts and bolts of the technique aspect is to try to 'get it out of the way' ( - as I see it, turning into instinct & muscle memory) to allow the music in your head come on out through the instrument.

I think of the instruments the same way; I work to 'get them out of the way' as much as is appropriate for what I'd like (meaning, many will agree that a degree of 'fight' keeps us honest and on our toes, though this isn't necessarily correct for everyone).

I minimize that 'fight' quite a lot, as much as I can, so that I can convince the instrument to convey what's going on in my head.

 

Troy Grady is mentioned here, and that's a worthy mention; in particular, my very good friend had his playing quite literally reinvented by digging into Troy's research and results - he felt he'd hit a roadblock within himself, and after spending time with Troy's videos and materials, he's now a better player.

And in this case, it got those obstacles reduced or removed; he's able to convey phrasing accurately and without injury to himself, his playing stamina has gone through the roof, and his warm-up requirements became so minimal that it's remarkable.

He was already an outstanding player; this jumped him to the next quantum level.

 

Good luck in working the playing; it's a worthy venture for heart and mind.

[erniedenov]

I'm not into jazz but jazz pieces makes great exercises.

 

I initially got interested in jazz in my late teens. At the time, I just wanted to learn a few things to take me beyond the pentatonic rock/blues box that I felt stifled by, but I ended up falling in love with it! I never abandoned rock, which is fortunate, because I make the bulk of my income by playing pop and rock covers (jazz gigs rarely pay adult money). And playing with a sound that is more akin to rock (distortion and sustain) thrills me more than that clean, dark big box archtop sound, though I do some gigs with a hollowbody and no effects if that's what the situation calls for. Anyway, jazz poses a lot of challenges that can't be found in most rock musics and though I understand if it's not somebody's cup of tea, learning a little bit about it can't hurt for developing chops, music theory knowledge and a better ear.

 

Quick story - personally I'd say I'm a hack technique-wise (just to establish that).  But I've been playing pro/semi-pro for many years, no one's asked me to stop yet.  I used to run a music store back east, and like most we offered lessons (not from me).  On of our teachers - we'll call him John, since that was his name - was a certified monster jazzbo, into harcore bebop.  Dude would sit behind the counter between students and just CRUSH me - talking sports or politics or whatever, but constantly flying around the neck with laser precision - deedly deedly deedly, hemidemisemiquavers 'till the cows came home. 

 

One day we're behind the counter and I can't take it anymore, ask him if he has room for another student in his schedule.  "Who do you have?", he asks. (Deedly deedly deedly) ME!, I tell him - I've been watching you beat me with a stick for the last year or so, got room to teach me?  "Why on earth do you want to play like me?" (deedly deedly deedly)  Well - there's THAT! I reply, I can't come remotely close to what you do.  "Ric (deedly deedly deedly) I've been to your shows - you're a very musical person (deedly deedly deedly), and I rarely see anyone who puts so much of themselves into what they're doing.  You may not play as fast or clean as I do (deedly deedly deedly), but you've always hit me right in the gut - it's always YOU coming thru those speakers.  I may have better technical skills, but you have the knack of grabbing people by their feelings..."

 

Stopped me dead in my tracks - gobsmacked.  This monster admired ME?

 

I withdrew my request - and play like myself to this day...

 

Just sayin...

 

Great story! The guy obviously knows what's going on; expression and the ability to communicate to an audience trumps everything else when it comes to playing.

 

I've been very lucky to have played with a slew of musicians who were better than me and if it wasn't for their support and encouragement, I probably would've decided that I sucked and might've quit decades ago.

[bsd512]

Very insightful story ric. Good points there.

 

Crazy speed is not my ultimate goal. Not at all. I dont want to sound like a machine. Speed is just a tool like anything else. Lets say i got my picking up to 180 bpm 16th notes on a single string when playing simple stuff. Great! But if i cant go 180 when playing moderately to really complex stuff crossing strings or moving up and down the neck it doesn't really matter to me.

 

When I picked up my guitar for the first time in 15 years I decided to reboot and start from scratch. That's two years ago now. So where i'm at right now any input is of value to me. And i can't think of a better place than here in this forum to discuss the challenges i'm facing at the moment.

 

So i've set goals for my self. One of them is 160 bpm 16th notes when alternate picking moderately complex stuff. If i can do that then it's okay that I have to slow down when playing more complex stuff. Another goals is being able to sweep arpeggios cleanly and being able to alternate pick them comfortably. Speed is not a goal here. 

 

My laser focus on technique, tension, picking motion, posture, hand positioning etc. comes from my desire to be able to play what i want when i want to. The drawback of being so methodically as I am is that i think to much about every apsect of my playing. I guess I'll have to loosen up a bit and just play.

Tons of great advice in this thread, and is greatly appreciated from the folks contributing. I will definitely be absorbing it and learning.

 

From what you're describing it sounds like we are in a similar position. I'm 50 y/o now and played for a few years as a teenager. I got to a certain level on my own - never had a guitar lesson ever, mainly listening to records and playing by ear. Due to life circumstances, I stopped playing.

 

I recently picked it back up after not playing for 35 years and quickly renewed my love for playing the guitar and kick myself daily for ever stopping. After playing again for about a year later in life, I had all the same concerns you do. And since I'd never had any instruction when the first few years as a teenager I never payed much attention to how I picked or anything - I just did what felt natural and didn't give it a second thought or even know any better to give it a second thought.

 

But now at 50 after 35 years of not playing, I started to question all that after the plethora of youtube advice and instruction available (if only youtube and the internet was available when I was a teenager :)) I questioned whether I was even holding the pick right, and wondered about all the things I might be doing wrong but don't know it. And stressed somewhat about it.

 

So I found a local guitar instructor after interviewing a few that seemed would work out for me. He said he'd watch my playing, help correct any technique issues, evaluate my form, whether I appeared tensed up in the shoulders and all that - sounded exactly like what I wanted. I told him going in was Ok at some things, but knew I lacked basic fundamentals (no lessons and all that) and wasn't even sure if I was doing even the most basic of things correctly.

 

I'm 8 lessons in now (8 weeks). The first 4 lessons he had me working on chording, timing, learning a few songs and a few other things. I think he was mainly evaluating where I was during that time but he didn't come out and say that. At the 5th 1-hour lesson, he stepped back and concluded I was rather unique in that he would categorize me as an "advanced" player. BUT ... as I predicted, there are some very basic stuff that I just didn't know or couldn't do well - like some simple strumming rhythms, chord construction beyond the basics, etc, and big void in music theory itself. Since I was worried about picking technique and things I asked him about that and he said I actually had exceptional right hand picking and left hand fretting technique, learned all the songs he threw at me in the first few lessons very quickly and so on. And I learned I'm largely an economy picker, though unconsciously I alternate pick sometimes and economy other times. I didn't know any better at the time as I self-taught, that's just what I naturally gravitated toward on my own.

 

So he's now focusing me on filling in the basic things I never learned early on that I would have had I had lessons, and has said my overall technique is really good - he's not making any recommendations on anything related to that.

 

What that did, though, is give me confidence that I'm at least doing OK in terms of picking, fretting, muting, yada yada. And now's the time to fill in some of the basic building blocks that more experienced players started with early on, so that I can more productively advance beyond where I am now.

 

My instructor doesn't really give me particular riffs or anything - he's more of a coach, guiding down the right path to fill in my gaps. All the hard work of digging in deep into a particular area is still up to me and lots of practice. But I feel that's what I've needed - a coach to point me down the right path to the areas I need to study and practice in order to achieve the goals I want. And that's very helpful to me as it keeps me from "stressing over picking technique" when that's not a problem, and instead I can improve much more productively by learning how to construct more advanced chords for different voicings that I didn't know were possible before, opening up the crazy complex world of music theory a little bit at a time, and with the odd trick or technique thrown in for good measure.

 

And I have no grand aspirations, I just want to improve myself and make an already extremely enjoyable and therapeutic activity EVEN more enjoyable.

 

It's not unusual that I'll go up to my play room at 6 or 7pm in the evening, tell my wife I'll be down in an hour or so, and then look up at the clock and it's 3am in the morning and I'll wonder where the time has gone. Feels like total immersion for me and that's one of the reasons I enjoy it so much - outside life and stress just melts away when I have a guitar in my hand and a Helix at my feet. :)

 

So my recommendation is to hook up with an experience instructor who will evaluate your playing, your strengths, your weaknesses, and help you go from there.

[cruisinon2]

I initially got interested in jazz in my late teens. At the time, I just wanted to learn a few things to take me beyond the pentatonic rock/blues box that I felt stifled by...

If you really want to learn to look at the fretboard in a different way, check out a guy named George Van Epps. He had Epiphone build him a 7-string back in 1938 (or thereabouts)...seriously complex chord melody pieces. Guy was a monster player and composer.

 

I've been very lucky to have played with a slew of musicians who were better than me...

This is the best way to get better. Nothing is quite as motivating as having your head handed to you by a better player, lol. ;)

[jabak]

I think you're especially right at the last; I think the goal of working all the nuts and bolts of the technique aspect is to try to 'get it out of the way' ( - as I see it, turning into instinct & muscle memory) to allow the music in your head come on out through the instrument.

I think of the instruments the same way; I work to 'get them out of the way' as much as is appropriate for what I'd like (meaning, many will agree that a degree of 'fight' keeps us honest and on our toes, though this isn't necessarily correct for everyone).

I minimize that 'fight' quite a lot, as much as I can, so that I can convince the instrument to convey what's going on in my head.

 

Troy Grady is mentioned here, and that's a worthy mention; in particular, my very good friend had his playing quite literally reinvented by digging into Troy's research and results - he felt he'd hit a roadblock within himself, and after spending time with Troy's videos and materials, he's now a better player.

And in this case, it got those obstacles reduced or removed; he's able to convey phrasing accurately and without injury to himself, his playing stamina has gone through the roof, and his warm-up requirements became so minimal that it's remarkable.

He was already an outstanding player; this jumped him to the next quantum level.

 

Good luck in working the playing; it's a worthy venture for heart and mind.

 

Spot on. What I was trying to convey can be boiled down to one simple sentence: 'get it out of the way'. That's right. Eliminate the worries of having some technique issue blocking progress. I think I'll give troy grady a shot for a couple of months. And I'll certainly continue to practice, practice and practice my technique.

[jabak]

I initially got interested in jazz in my late teens. At the time, I just wanted to learn a few things to take me beyond the pentatonic rock/blues box that I felt stifled by, but I ended up falling in love with it! I never abandoned rock, which is fortunate, because I make the bulk of my income by playing pop and rock covers (jazz gigs rarely pay adult money). And playing with a sound that is more akin to rock (distortion and sustain) thrills me more than that clean, dark big box archtop sound, though I do some gigs with a hollowbody and no effects if that's what the situation calls for. Anyway, jazz poses a lot of challenges that can't be found in most rock musics and though I understand if it's not somebody's cup of tea, learning a little bit about it can't hurt for developing chops, music theory knowledge and a better ear.

 

 

Great story! The guy obviously knows what's going on; expression and the ability to communicate to an audience trumps everything else when it comes to playing.

 

I've been very lucky to have played with a slew of musicians who were better than me and if it wasn't for their support and encouragement, I probably would've decided that I sucked and might've quit decades ago.

 

Jazz not only makes good exercises - it sounds cool too. So for me it's serves multiple purposes. But it's not like I practice jazz on a daily basis. Far from it. It's just fun to do something different from  time to time.

[hideout]

Jazz is the Blues on illegal steroids!  Way fun and a lot less dangerous than illegal steroids.

[jabak]

Tons of great advice in this thread, and is greatly appreciated from the folks contributing. I will definitely be absorbing it and learning.

 

From what you're describing it sounds like we are in a similar position. I'm 50 y/o now and played for a few years as a teenager. I got to a certain level on my own - never had a guitar lesson ever, mainly listening to records and playing by ear. Due to life circumstances, I stopped playing.

 

I recently picked it back up after not playing for 35 years and quickly renewed my love for playing the guitar and kick myself daily for ever stopping. After playing again for about a year later in life, I had all the same concerns you do. And since I'd never had any instruction when the first few years as a teenager I never payed much attention to how I picked or anything - I just did what felt natural and didn't give it a second thought or even know any better to give it a second thought.

 

But now at 50 after 35 years of not playing, I started to question all that after the plethora of youtube advice and instruction available (if only youtube and the internet was available when I was a teenager :)) I questioned whether I was even holding the pick right, and wondered about all the things I might be doing wrong but don't know it. And stressed somewhat about it.

 

So I found a local guitar instructor after interviewing a few that seemed would work out for me. He said he'd watch my playing, help correct any technique issues, evaluate my form, whether I appeared tensed up in the shoulders and all that - sounded exactly like what I wanted. I told him going in was Ok at some things, but knew I lacked basic fundamentals (no lessons and all that) and wasn't even sure if I was doing even the most basic of things correctly.

 

I'm 8 lessons in now (8 weeks). The first 4 lessons he had me working on chording, timing, learning a few songs and a few other things. I think he was mainly evaluating where I was during that time but he didn't come out and say that. At the 5th 1-hour lesson, he stepped back and concluded I was rather unique in that he would categorize me as an "advanced" player. BUT ... as I predicted, there are some very basic stuff that I just didn't know or couldn't do well - like some simple strumming rhythms, chord construction beyond the basics, etc, and big void in music theory itself. Since I was worried about picking technique and things I asked him about that and he said I actually had exceptional right hand picking and left hand fretting technique, learned all the songs he threw at me in the first few lessons very quickly and so on. And I learned I'm largely an economy picker, though unconsciously I alternate pick sometimes and economy other times. I didn't know any better at the time as I self-taught, that's just what I naturally gravitated toward on my own.

 

So he's now focusing me on filling in the basic things I never learned early on that I would have had I had lessons, and has said my overall technique is really good - he's not making any recommendations on anything related to that.

 

What that did, though, is give me confidence that I'm at least doing OK in terms of picking, fretting, muting, yada yada. And now's the time to fill in some of the basic building blocks that more experienced players started with early on, so that I can more productively advance beyond where I am now.

 

My instructor doesn't really give me particular riffs or anything - he's more of a coach, guiding down the right path to fill in my gaps. All the hard work of digging in deep into a particular area is still up to me and lots of practice. But I feel that's what I've needed - a coach to point me down the right path to the areas I need to study and practice in order to achieve the goals I want. And that's very helpful to me as it keeps me from "stressing over picking technique" when that's not a problem, and instead I can improve much more productively by learning how to construct more advanced chords for different voicings that I didn't know were possible before, opening up the crazy complex world of music theory a little bit at a time, and with the odd trick or technique thrown in for good measure.

 

And I have no grand aspirations, I just want to improve myself and make an already extremely enjoyable and therapeutic activity EVEN more enjoyable.

 

It's not unusual that I'll go up to my play room at 6 or 7pm in the evening, tell my wife I'll be down in an hour or so, and then look up at the clock and it's 3am in the morning and I'll wonder where the time has gone. Feels like total immersion for me and that's one of the reasons I enjoy it so much - outside life and stress just melts away when I have a guitar in my hand and a Helix at my feet. :)

 

So my recommendation is to hook up with an experience instructor who will evaluate your playing, your strengths, your weaknesses, and help you go from there.

 

You got it right. 46 y/o my self and started playing when I was about 16. Had the guitar in one hand and a bear in the other for 11-12 years and then just stopped (not the latter though). I can't really remember why that happened but I guess life got in the way.

 

Like me I sense that you enjoy playing guitar in a completely different way now compared to when you were younger. When I go in to my home studio and start practicing sometimes I completely lose track of time and end op noodling around with all sorts of stuff for several hours. It's super enjoyable and when I call it a day it's with a big smile on my face.

 

After watching football tonight (the kind of football where the players actually and predominantly uses theirs feet) I took the time to look around for guitar teachers in my area. I didn't have high expectations regarding the selection of qualified teachers in my area and I wasn't disappointed. Zero.

 

But i'll keep looking. Maybe some local music school will have something to offer other than a crazy shredder. Like you I'm not exactly versed in theory, chords and stuff like that so any teacher at any level could teach me a thing or two about that. That's for sure.

 

You say that your teacher considers your picking technique to be quite good. Out if interest how do you handle moving from string to string while economy picking notes? I've watched several youtube videos on the subject. Most of them tells you to anchor the underarm while moving or rotating your wrist. So your wrist's range of movement is then supposed to cover all 6-7-8 string without unanchoring your arm. At first i tried to adapt this technique but it felt so unnatural. Then I started moving my underarm up and down while using the wrist to make small motions to pick. The right side of my palm just barely touches/slides over the bridge without actually hovering above it. I would call it a very light anchoring technique. My wrist movement is not up and down entirely but close. And sometimes I rotate my wrist.

 

Like I said in some other post I also find it harder to pick single notes (scales) fluently when playing on the high positions on the neck. i have no clue why but tension is part of the problem. i hope it makes sense.

[spikey]

Here's how I describe it. It is like a bunch of Plateaus... Its all about climbing plateaus. They come easy to climb at 1st and there are many of them one right after another. Then after a year or two, they are less frequent and much higher to climb, but when you do it's just great! And then..., then there may not be another for half a decade or more, and you feel stuck in a rut playing the same thing over and over, you feel like there's just gotta be more to this. What am I missing here?! One day out of the blue, you fumble into an AMAZING pattern you didn't know existed and do get to another plateau and climb it, and its rapture like! AMAZING! And then you wonder out loud, why didn't I already know this? That was so simple and it ties in what I've been trying to tie in!  I love playing guitar! The feeling of success once I reach that next plateau is what I now play for, and no matter where I fall in the skill levels it is worth all the effort spent.  ;)  :D

[bsd512]

Out if interest how do you handle moving from string to string while economy picking notes? I've watched several youtube videos on the subject. Most of them tells you to anchor the underarm while moving or rotating your wrist. So your wrist's range of movement is then supposed to cover all 6-7-8 string without unanchoring your arm. At first i tried to adapt this technique but it felt so unnatural. Then I started moving my underarm up and down while using the wrist to make small motions to pick. The right side of my palm just barely touches/slides over the bridge without actually hovering above it. I would call it a very light anchoring technique. My wrist movement is not up and down entirely but close. And sometimes I rotate my wrist.

 

Ha - made me have to go look at what I do, 'cause I couldn't tell you otherwise, and even then "it depends."  :)

 

And I'm NOT offering this as advice or anything ... the real players here on this forum have forgotten more than I will likely ever know ... just trying to answer your question to me. :)

 

So ... at the risk of bringing on the ridicule of a bunch of great guitarists ... here goes. :-)

 

After about an hour trying to figure out what I do actually do (I had to play for a while and look because I honestly couldn't tell you otherwise) ...

 

For something like a scale from the 6th string to the 1st string, I think I do pretty much what you describe in the latter part. My forearm rests lightly but does not anchor solid, sliding a little bit if needed and I can feel the guitar body tugging and sliding a little on my forearm as I go from 6th string to the 1st. Meanwhile the right side of my palm glides just in front of the bridge (or further up the strings lengthwise - see below) with light pressure that varies depending on what and how much I'm muting. Pick stays very close to the strings and moves very little vertically and very very little while picking the same string multiple times, pick-angle is about 30 degrees or so to the string. And I apparently mute some with the bottom of my thumb (that's new to me, I didn't realize I did that).

But ... I do find myself moving the picking position lengthwise on the strings, too - i.e., from near the bridge pickup to closer or over the neck pickup and even up over the higher frets sometimes - you get lots of different tones from throughout that area as opposed to one spot, and of course that changes things up good bit forearm-wise and such.

 

I googled "how to hold a guitar pick" to find a photo the closest to how I hold the pick and this is pretty close, but with *barely* any of the tip of the pick below my thumb if any, and that varies depending on what I'm doing too. My index finger is not curled tight like some recommend. My wrist is doing most of the work but it's not much, moving just a small amount, and I notice my thumb and index finger are making small micro adjustments and movements in the joints positioning the angle of the pick, sometimes changing angle to the string and sometimes changing the angle vertically. The faster I pick the less my finger joints move. Pretty sure a tiny bit of the bottom of my thumb is making contact with the string on almost every note, not enough for a pinch (unless I want that to happen), and maybe even the back of my index fingernail sometimes, depending.

 

 

But then when transition from picking notes to a chord, thumb rolls up on the pick exposing more of the pick and the vertical angle changes more to apparently glide over the strings a little better.

 

I wouldn't "fret" over this though - see what I did there? :) I'm just some guy on the internet. Ask 10 people and I bet you get 100 different answers that vary widely in their details, even among famous pros.

 

Have you seen any of Glenn Delaune's helix custom patch videos? If not, google him. Highly unorthodox picking, uses a wrap-around thumb pick, plays phenomenally.

 

 

Like I said in some other post I also find it harder to pick single notes (scales) fluently when playing on the high positions on the neck. i have no clue why but tension is part of the problem. i hope it makes sense.

Not sure about that. Try standing up. If sitting, its hard for me to reach the higher frets of the higher numbered strings - my wrist feels like a contortionist. Standing makes it easy to change the position of your guitar to make that work better.

[MonkeyXT]

Great ongoing discussion here.

 

I'm self-taught essentially; Dad showed me the chords around the campfire, and genetically gave me some kind of innate musical core that I've managed to tap into - thank-you, Dad (and yes, I've told him this, and remind him often =]).

 

I was worrying over my self-evolved manners of doing things - especially holding the pick, which has baffled various onlookers (and myself, truthfully), and I'm pretty sure would cause a vein to pop in Troy Grady's forehead if I could video my picking methods and send them to him...

I've had people enquire, and I warn them off immediately; whatever you do, don't try emulating this 'hot mess' as it's likely holding me back.

However, having attempted to 'correct' it; without fail, it negatively affects my playing. I stop sounding like me.

I won't bother trying to explain much, except to say that the tips of my picks never wear out; they wear away high on the side, and it basically sits up high between index and thumb - and often enough shifting to middle and thumb (likely came from observing Eddie Van Halen intently early on, and now pops up like a submarine) - and the point of contact with the string is /way/ behind my actual grip-point on my digits...

Strange...

When I try to adopt a more 'textbook-correct' manner of holding the pick, it stays put a few moments, my picking becomes overly stiff and staccato, and soon self-corrects to my odd manner...

When playing Telecasters I'm also about 90% fingers only - BUT I won't play without a pick tucked into my middle finger's interior (again, thank-you Ed Van Halen, this is a very important and valuable tool for me in so many ways) even if I don't use that pick the entire set, except to tune the guitar =]

That doesn't handicap that finger; still able to pick with it.

And no nails; all flesh. Can't play with nails; my nails are weak, and using nails sounds similar to how I sound when holding a pick 'correctly' - go figure.

[ricstudioc]

 It is like a bunch of Plateaus

Exactly the word I've always used - and your time frame sounds about right, to my experience.  Only thing I'd add is the visibility factor - you have to reach plateau A to even be dimly aware of plateau B, and B to C and so on.  There is an inevitable natural progression, one jump leading eventually to the next.  But you can't see C from A - you have to take the steps to open up your view to the next level.

 

I had a martial arts instructor who always said "anybody can be incredibly dangerous empty handed, you just have to devote every moment of your existence to it".  And I've heard others say the same about being rich.  I think that's one reason I still have my idiosyncratic technique - music/guitar is one PART of my life, not all of it.  I've never been motivated to dedicate the temporal resources to a major forward leap.  Thats on me - no regrets, I still love playing.

 

To tie this back to Steve Morse (where my commentary began) - you may/may not be aware, for a period of some years he flew (Captained) commercial heavy airliners for... I believe Southwest.  (What the f&%k kinda resume is THAT?  Rock Icon & Heavy Pilot)  Stories go, he'd get'em in the air, set up the autopilot - and then reach back and grab his guitar, play incessantly till time to enter the approach pattern at destination.

 

THAT is an insane level of dedication - and god bless him for it, too.  I've enjoyed every note.....

[duncann]

Here's how I describe it. It is like a bunch of Plateaus...

 

Good way to think about it. To add to it, the higher you get, the smaller the plateaus get - as well as the hand and foot holds - and it's easier to get knocked  down. But if you do get knocked down, getting back up to a previously visited plateau is easier.

[jabak]

Here's how I describe it. It is like a bunch of Plateaus... Its all about climbing plateaus. They come easy to climb at 1st and there are many of them one right after another. Then after a year or two, they are less frequent and much higher to climb, but when you do it's just great! And then..., then there may not be another for half a decade or more, and you feel stuck in a rut playing the same thing over and over, you feel like there's just gotta be more to this. What am I missing here?! One day out of the blue, you fumble into an AMAZING pattern you didn't know existed and do get to another plateau and climb it, and its rapture like! AMAZING! And then you wonder out loud, why didn't I already know this? That was so simple and it ties in what I've been trying to tie in!  I love playing guitar! The feeling of success once I reach that next plateau is what I now play for, and no matter where I fall in the skill levels it is worth all the effort spent.  ;)  :D

 

Good way to think about it. To add to it, the higher you get, the smaller the plateaus get - as well as the hand and foot holds - and it's easier to get knocked  down. But if you do get knocked down, getting back up to a previously visited plateau is easier.

 

Never thought of it that way but I think it's a accurate description of how things are. When thinking about it I remember that when i started playing the guitar I took giant leaps forward to start with and fast also. New peak summits was reached every month. Later on things slowed down quite a bit. The next summit was only a fraction higher than the previous one but the time spent in between the peaks were increasing.

[jabak]

Exactly the word I've always used - and your time frame sounds about right, to my experience.  Only thing I'd add is the visibility factor - you have to reach plateau A to even be dimly aware of plateau B, and B to C and so on.  There is an inevitable natural progression, one jump leading eventually to the next.  But you can't see C from A - you have to take the steps to open up your view to the next level.

 

I had a martial arts instructor who always said "anybody can be incredibly dangerous empty handed, you just have to devote every moment of your existence to it".  And I've heard others say the same about being rich.  I think that's one reason I still have my idiosyncratic technique - music/guitar is one PART of my life, not all of it.  I've never been motivated to dedicate the temporal resources to a major forward leap.  Thats on me - no regrets, I still love playing.

 

To tie this back to Steve Morse (where my commentary began) - you may/may not be aware, for a period of some years he flew (Captained) commercial heavy airliners for... I believe Southwest.  (What the f&%k kinda resume is THAT?  Rock Icon & Heavy Pilot)  Stories go, he'd get'em in the air, set up the autopilot - and then reach back and grab his guitar, play incessantly till time to enter the approach pattern at destination.

 

THAT is an insane level of dedication - and god bless him for it, too.  I've enjoyed every note.....

 

 I've watched a few Steve Morse videos since you mentioned him. Amazing stuff.

[jabak]

Great ongoing discussion here.

 

I'm self-taught essentially; Dad showed me the chords around the campfire, and genetically gave me some kind of innate musical core that I've managed to tap into - thank-you, Dad (and yes, I've told him this, and remind him often =]).

 

I was worrying over my self-evolved manners of doing things - especially holding the pick, which has baffled various onlookers (and myself, truthfully), and I'm pretty sure would cause a vein to pop in Troy Grady's forehead if I could video my picking methods and send them to him...

I've had people enquire, and I warn them off immediately; whatever you do, don't try emulating this 'hot mess' as it's likely holding me back.

However, having attempted to 'correct' it; without fail, it negatively affects my playing. I stop sounding like me.

I won't bother trying to explain much, except to say that the tips of my picks never wear out; they wear away high on the side, and it basically sits up high between index and thumb - and often enough shifting to middle and thumb (likely came from observing Eddie Van Halen intently early on, and now pops up like a submarine) - and the point of contact with the string is /way/ behind my actual grip-point on my digits...

Strange...

When I try to adopt a more 'textbook-correct' manner of holding the pick, it stays put a few moments, my picking becomes overly stiff and staccato, and soon self-corrects to my odd manner...

When playing Telecasters I'm also about 90% fingers only - BUT I won't play without a pick tucked into my middle finger's interior (again, thank-you Ed Van Halen, this is a very important and valuable tool for me in so many ways) even if I don't use that pick the entire set, except to tune the guitar =]

That doesn't handicap that finger; still able to pick with it.

And no nails; all flesh. Can't play with nails; my nails are weak, and using nails sounds similar to how I sound when holding a pick 'correctly' - go figure.

 

Michael Batio comes into mind when reading your description of how you pick. Marty Friedman also. Not that I think their styles resembles yours but they too have a very unique approach to picking. If it works it works the morale being that there's no right or wrong?

[jabak]

Ha - made me have to go look at what I do, 'cause I couldn't tell you otherwise, and even then "it depends."  :)

 

And I'm NOT offering this as advice or anything ... the real players here on this forum have forgotten more than I will likely ever know ... just trying to answer your question to me. :)

 

So ... at the risk of bringing on the ridicule of a bunch of great guitarists ... here goes. :-)

 

After about an hour trying to figure out what I do actually do (I had to play for a while and look because I honestly couldn't tell you otherwise) ...

 

For something like a scale from the 6th string to the 1st string, I think I do pretty much what you describe in the latter part. My forearm rests lightly but does not anchor solid, sliding a little bit if needed and I can feel the guitar body tugging and sliding a little on my forearm as I go from 6th string to the 1st. Meanwhile the right side of my palm glides just in front of the bridge (or further up the strings lengthwise - see below) with light pressure that varies depending on what and how much I'm muting. Pick stays very close to the strings and moves very little vertically and very very little while picking the same string multiple times, pick-angle is about 30 degrees or so to the string. And I apparently mute some with the bottom of my thumb (that's new to me, I didn't realize I did that).

But ... I do find myself moving the picking position lengthwise on the strings, too - i.e., from near the bridge pickup to closer or over the neck pickup and even up over the higher frets sometimes - you get lots of different tones from throughout that area as opposed to one spot, and of course that changes things up good bit forearm-wise and such.

 

I googled "how to hold a guitar pick" to find a photo the closest to how I hold the pick and this is pretty close, but with *barely* any of the tip of the pick below my thumb if any, and that varies depending on what I'm doing too. My index finger is not curled tight like some recommend. My wrist is doing most of the work but it's not much, moving just a small amount, and I notice my thumb and index finger are making small micro adjustments and movements in the joints positioning the angle of the pick, sometimes changing angle to the string and sometimes changing the angle vertically. The faster I pick the less my finger joints move. Pretty sure a tiny bit of the bottom of my thumb is making contact with the string on almost every note, not enough for a pinch (unless I want that to happen), and maybe even the back of my index fingernail sometimes, depending.

 

 

But then when transition from picking notes to a chord, thumb rolls up on the pick exposing more of the pick and the vertical angle changes more to apparently glide over the strings a little better.

 

I wouldn't "fret" over this though - see what I did there? :) I'm just some guy on the internet. Ask 10 people and I bet you get 100 different answers that vary widely in their details, even among famous pros.

 

Have you seen any of Glenn Delaune's helix custom patch videos? If not, google him. Highly unorthodox picking, uses a wrap-around thumb pick, plays phenomenally.

 

 

Not sure about that. Try standing up. If sitting, its hard for me to reach the higher frets of the higher numbered strings - my wrist feels like a contortionist. Standing makes it easy to change the position of your guitar to make that work better.

 

I think were using very similar picking techniques. I'm not sure but when you mentioned moving along the strings lengthwise as you go from sixth to first string it totally made sense. This morning I found a video that pretty much nails how I pick the only difference being that i also use my thumb to mute strings as you do. Also I probably have a more light touch with my palm:

 

 

Yup I've seen Glenns videos. I also purchased his first custom artist package months ago. Great tones and some very complex patches. And yes he is a great guitarist.

 

When practicing I sit down with my guitar strapped. It's positioned high enough so it doesnt touch my legs and therefore the whole weight of the guitar is supported by the strap. i do occasionally stand up while playing and it makes no difference.

 

I've started to do 2/3 of my practice routines above the 12th fret to get rid of the problem but it's a hard nut to crack. It's frustrating that no one else is having the same issues when playing the high frets. it makes you think that there's something wrong with your technique.

[BillBee]

One thing that will help if you like to sit while practicing is to use a strap and hike the guitar body off the lap so it hangs. Muscle memory will eventually take over and we tend to remember the wrong things sometimes. :)

[cruisinon2]

Muscle memory will eventually take over and we tend to remember the wrong things sometimes. :)

Remembering the wrong things is an acquired condition....comes with the marriage license. ;)

[BillBee]

It dovetails with my other malady of CRS (can't remember lollipop). :)

[bsd512]

I've started to do 2/3 of my practice routines above the 12th fret to get rid of the problem but it's a hard nut to crack. It's frustrating that no one else is having the same issues when playing the high frets. it makes you think that there's something wrong with your technique.

Yeah probably just need to train your hand over many repetitions. A few months back I was learning the acoustic intro to Randy Roads' Diary of a Madman, I always loved that part, and is pretty classical in nature. A couple of the chords in the intro were very painful and I was thinking - sheesh, how does this guy play this stuff so fluidly and with such style - I can't even make my hand contort to even fret the notes let alone do it reliably or repeatably. But after doing it over and over, it's now actually comfortable. Weird how that works.

[MonkeyXT]

Indeed - my picking 'method' is certainly odd.

Someone once said it reminded them somewhat of George Lynch.

I semi-anchor with the other fingers of the right hand while I'm at it... so it seems.

 

This all came from some people commenting, which got me actually self-examining... since otherwise, I wasn't really conscious of it much.

I recently swapped in a photo for my Facebook ID pic; I was playing, and noted one of these odd moments of picking, so I 'froze' and grabbed my phone to catch the posture.

Pick is oddly held in middle finger and thumb, with the index finger sticking out reminding me of Gonzo's (the Muppet...) nose...

 

MAB is definitely unique and efficient.

Marty Friedman; that looks uncomfortable and odd to me. Cool that it works for him.

 

Fascinating details being discussed in this thread by all.

[duncann]

... since otherwise, I wasn't really conscious of it much.

 

It would be interesting to know how many players, every class of player included, are actually conscious of the techniques they use. I for one am not, never have been, at least not to the level Troy Grady analyzes this stuff (which is fascinating). Rightly or wrongly, I've always done what feels natural, or sometimes unnatural when exploring the limitations of the guitar fretboard. For more experienced players that have fundamental techniques to the level of second nature, isn't that a sort of unconscious behavior, and that however these techniques present themselves, they are unique to that individual? I guess what I'm saying is, as fascinating as picking technique apart to extreme levels of detail is, be aware that doing so can potentially be a stumbling block to improving because what feels natural to you might be contradictory to what someone else tells you how it should be done. Not only that, but there's much more to music that technique alone, and if you're trying to mimic someone else's technique, you might be on the way to losing your unique way of playing the guitar.

[MonkeyXT]

Agreed completely.

That's exactly why I stopped worrying about and 'correcting' my habits.

I spent some time looking into Troy Grady, and am very glad that his materials completely freed my good friend in so many ways.

I just can't set aside the time it would take me to go through that process... especially when I feel like it might upend something that is 'special' enough to keep, or at least leave to be continue evolving in the organic way in which it has to date.

 

I'm conscious of it enough to stay blissfully ignorant of it =]

As long as I'm not finding myself running into obstacles which I feel need to be addressed, I'll likely just carry on as is.

[jabak]

As you may have gathered from the posts here I do analyze every bit and piece of my playing at the moment. It's not that I analyze to the extend of what Troy grady does but yes I'm very conscious of what is going on when playing guitar. i think it's just a temporary thing. When at some point I feel comfortable with my new and hopefully improved technique it will be at thing of the past. But right now I feel that I can't afford to make the same mistakes I did some 30 years ago and consequently hitting a brick wall once more.

 

What I'm trying to say is that I agree with you. Probably 9 out 10 will agree with you. It has to and will come natural to most of us. But natural to me for a foreseeable period of time is to analyze and correct :)

 

While we're at it and most of you (i'm guessing) are proficient guitar players (which i'm not) I've got one more question: how many of you are economy pickers and how many are alternate pickers. If alternate picker do you use pick slanting and edge picking?

[BillBee]

Getting back at Mike's question: I have always thought an artist's style and ability will flux throughout the career and yet retain that mojo of what they put into it. Experienced players sometimes need that push or direction if they have hit the wall on their own and need to push ahead. Its diminishing returns at a certain level but can be well worth the effort. This is regardless of TG's series and can be seeking out a master level teacher or a style. Perfect practice is encouraged in everything that requires mechanics and usually has a acceptable/common technique.

 

That said I still can't play Null Violator so back to the woodshed I go!!

 

Google up the Stylus Pick fellas - back in the 90's this was what put pick slanting on my radar. Alas I am still working on my Yngwie runs!!

[jabak]

^^THIS^^

 

I stumbled on this guy's youtube channel a couple of years ago. Helped me clean up 25 years of miserable right hand technique. I had grown accustomed to relying on legato playing with lots of gain because my picking was frankly, awful....well maybe not "awful", but it was certainly a weak spot.

 

I was also surprised at how much the picks I was using for a million years (Jazz III's) were contributing to my sh*tty picking on fast runs. I now use a handful of polished stone picks from a few different sources, but these are my favorite:

 

https://stoneworkspicks.com/

 

The beveled edges are so much smoother than whatever plastic(s) most picks are made from, they glide across the strings rather effortlessly...and they last damn near forever. I still have the first one I bought, almost 2 years ago. Hardly has a mark on it.

 

Finally my new stoneworks pick arrived in Denmark. It took a month or so. But i must say it was well worth the waiting time. Besides the obvious visual qualities of the pick, which is a proof of Mike's craftsmanship, i've noticed a few other pros. First of all it adds more attack to the sound. Secondly it also adds a unique picking sound to the overall tone in a way i find pleasent. And I agree it does glide through the strings effortlessly. I've taken on economy picking after watching troy grady's mechanics stuff. I kinda figured out that two-way pick slanting would be to much for me right now. And the alternative of either down/upward pickslanting wasn't an option for me. So economy picking became the obvious choice as a supplement to strict alternate picking (with no conscious pickslanting).

 

Btw. Mike's personal touch when it comes to customer service is much appreciated. That's a very rare thing these days.

[cruisinon2]

Finally my new stoneworks pick arrived in Denmark. It took a month or so. But i must say it was well worth the waiting time. Besides the obvious visual qualities of the pick, which is a proof of Mike's craftsmanship, i've noticed a few other pros. First of all it adds more attack to the sound. Secondly it also adds a unique picking sound to the overall tone in a way i find pleasent. And I agree it does glide through the strings effortlessly.

 

Btw. Mike's personal touch when it comes to customer service is much appreciated. That's a very rare thing these days.

Agreed...glad you like them!

[dickbanks]

When I get stuck on something, I get one die out. Start at 1, play the piece, go to 2, play again. All the way up to 6, and then back down from 6 back to 1. Now you have tried it 12 times, really without thinking about how many times you played it, just concentrating on the piece. At the end of the 12 tries, ask yourself, "did I get better, the same, or is it worse now?" If the last two are true (same or worse), quit on it and try again tomorrow. Your brain needs more time to rewire to get it down--and that happens while you sleep. Continuing to play it more in the same sitting (same day) will only frustrate you more.

 

On the other hand, if it's better, congrats, play it some more!

 

I try to play the first thing after waking up, and the last thing before bed. Even if those are really short periods, 15-30 minutes. Because the brain is great for learning something new overnight, and for remembering (and digesting) the last thing you did before sleep. Like Meatloaf said, "let me sleep on it."

 

None of these are my original ideas BTW--stuff I learned in a Brain Science course I took for my MSEd.

 

And remember, there was a time when Randy Rhoads told his mom, "I'll never be a lead guitar player." Can you imagine?

 

Even the very best players get frustrated at times...

[jabak]

When I get stuck on something, I get one die out. Start at 1, play the piece, go to 2, play again. All the way up to 6, and then back down from 6 back to 1. Now you have tried it 12 times, really without thinking about how many times you played it, just concentrating on the piece.

 

Sorry for not understanding. I've never come across this one "...I get one die out. Start at 1, play the piece, go to 2, play again". :) English is not my native language so sometimes I run in to words, sayings etc. that I just don't understand. :rolleyes:

[bsd512]

Agreed...glad you like them!

 

 

I have to pile on - based on your recommendation I ordered a couple of Mike's picks. They are very nice. What's pretty unique about his inventory is when your order a pick it is the one that is photo'd - not a representative photo, you get *that* pick. So while the price is up there, you are getting a custom product, and I was a bit surprised with the hand-written note included. And as cruisinon2 mentioned, they last for years. So as long as you don't don't lose them, who knows - could be cheaper in the long run. :)

 

Based on your recommendation, I ordered 3. :-) I do like them a lot.

 

Here's a photo I just took - they are gorgeous ... and they make me play better. Perception is reality. :-)

 

[dickbanks]

Sorry for not understanding. I've never come across this one "...I get one die out. Start at 1, play the piece, go to 2, play again". :) English is not my native language so sometimes I run in to words, sayings etc. that I just don't understand. :rolleyes:

So you use the dice from a board game, six sided with dots, like for craps, monopoly, etc, only you use just one. The idea, all you know is you want to get through 12 attempts at what you are playing, without really thinking about how many you have done, or have to go. A mind trick really. You just concentrate on what you are trying to play.

[brue58ski]

To tie this back to Steve Morse (where my commentary began) - you may/may not be aware, for a period of some years he flew (Captained) commercial heavy airliners for... I believe Southwest.  (What the f&%k kinda resume is THAT?  Rock Icon & Heavy Pilot)  Stories go, he'd get'em in the air, set up the autopilot - and then reach back and grab his guitar, play incessantly till time to enter the approach pattern at destination.

 

THAT is an insane level of dedication - and god bless him for it, too.  I've enjoyed every note.....

 

Steve Morse. I have no favorite guitarist. But I have levels of favorites and Steve is at the top. Some equal, none better. Reminds of a story he told about when he was attending the University of Miami. He learned how to drive with his knees so he could continue to practice while driving to and from school.

 

One thing that took me over a decade to figure out is you don't really ever see the results of all of your practicing until the next day. I wish someone would have told me that when I first started out. dickbanks touched on this a couple of posts back.

[ricstudioc]

Steve Morse. I have no favorite guitarist. But I have levels of favorites and Steve is at the top. Some equal, none better. Reminds of a story he told about when he was attending the University of Miami. He learned how to drive with his knees so he could continue to practice while driving to and from school..

 

Y'know if I heard this about anyone else I'd call BS - but in Morse's case I'd tend to believe it, certainly the pilot story has been verified so why not...?

[jabak]

So you use the dice from a board game, six sided with dots, like for craps, monopoly, etc, only you use just one. The idea, all you know is you want to get through 12 attempts at what you are playing, without really thinking about how many you have done, or have to go. A mind trick really. You just concentrate on what you are trying to play.

 

Okay I get It.. Funny how one misspelled word completely derailed my thoughts and I just couldn't get back on the track in order to understand the rest.  :rolleyes:

 

Anyway thanks for the tip. I have this neo-classical style piece that i've been struggling to nail at 120 BPM alternate picking. Tonight i'll apply your method.

 

It kinda reminds me of another cyclic method I use. Start by playing the piece at a certain tempo. Every time you nail it two times in a row bump up the metronome one notch. If you fail three times in a row reduce the metronome speed by a notch. You don't really care about how many repetitions you're going to do or how many you will do. All that matters is you constantly evaluate progress and adjust accordingly. Do this for 15 minutes and then stop, take note of what speed you reached and move on to some other exercise. Next day start at the same tempo as the day before and do the exact same drill. After 15 minutes you stop and take note of what speed you reached. Better, worse or the same? If you keep reaching the same speed a few days in a row quit the piece for a period of time. Go learn something new and exciting. return to the piece when you are motivated to do so.

[jabak]

I have to pile on - based on your recommendation I ordered a couple of Mike's picks. They are very nice. What's pretty unique about his inventory is when your order a pick it is the one that is photo'd - not a representative photo, you get *that* pick. So while the price is up there, you are getting a custom product, and I was a bit surprised with the hand-written note included. And as cruisinon2 mentioned, they last for years. So as long as you don't don't lose them, who knows - could be cheaper in the long run. :)

 

Based on your recommendation, I ordered 3. :-) I do like them a lot.

 

Here's a photo I just took - they are gorgeous ... and they make me play better. Perception is reality. :-)

 

 

Nice! The one in the middle is awesome. Yours are a bit more rounded than mine. Mine has a very sharp tip. I can't stop wondering if the stone pick will last forever while the strings will hit the rigor mortis stage after a few runs.

[brue58ski]

Y'know if I heard this about anyone else I'd call BS - but in Morse's case I'd tend to believe it, certainly the pilot story has been verified so why not...?

 

Yeah. I'm gonna guess the road was pretty straight when he did it.

[cclement]

Jumping on the "pick" bandwagon here...

I ordered one of these last year...

 

http://plectrum.ch/product/the-original-glass-effect-drop-plectrum

 

.. and it's really grown on me. Yes, it's freaking huge, but it feels good in the hand and definitely feels like I'm working less to pick. YYMV

[duncann]

Jumping on the "pick" bandwagon here...

I ordered one of these last year...

 

http://plectrum.ch/product/the-original-glass-effect-anvil-plectrum

 

.. and it's really grown on me. Yes, it's freaking huge, but it feels good in the hand and definitely feels like I'm working less to pick. YYMV

 

Wow. How in the world do you do harmonics with that thing?