Busking Helix - Battery power source?

[mcfingrs]

Apologies if this topic is covered.

 

I want to power my rig using DC from a Deep Cycle battery.

Helix is the only device with onboard power converter (probably no coincidence it's also the biggest power drain).

 

Per the labeling, Helix requires 60 watts AC.

Given other Line6 gear powered by 12v / 5a it seems pretty safe to assume that's how 60 watts is derived.

 

It's fairly easy to connect a power inverter to a battery.

The lunacy with inverting is that the power costs 85% inefficiency, for a device that wants DC in the first place!

So for a deep cycle battery that should not discharge more that 50%, for any device that needs inversion I need to essentially halve again.

Meaning I get only 25% of the capacity of any battery.

 

Any recommendations?

[hideout]

Yes. For buskers, a 12 (likely) volt input would be very handy. I wonder, when you Helix is well out of warranty, if you could take it to a reputable electrical engineer and have him/her install a tap and a jack so that you could feed it Power from a battery without voltage conversion. I’m assuming that it internally runs at 12 volts as most computers do.

[phil_m]

Well, I don't know what internal voltage the Helix is operating at, and I wouldn't want to make any assumptions. I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. I can't recommend trying to bypass the Helix's internal power supply. A battery powerpack like this should still give you a pretty long run time... https://www.duracellpower.com/products/duracell-300-watt-powerpack-pro

 

I understand your point about inversion inefficiencies, but, still, 60W is a pretty small load to power for a few hours.

[PeterHamm]

Overkill for busking, dude.

[MusicLaw]

Your best option is likely to be a quality Power Inverter that has a minimum rating of providing at least 100W @ 120V A/C with pure sine wave output. There are numerous brands and models that will easily do the job. The Helix is not a high current load/drain device. There is no massive current draw at startup. If you have any doubts, use (or borrow) a clamp-on style A/C Ammeter to see what it reports at Helix power up, and during typical use of both DSP chips.

 

Your other alternative would be one of the modern generation small footprint generators (Honda, Harbor Freight) that deliver pure sine wave A/C output. These are likely far beyond what you want or need for mere busking, but are fantastic for field location operations where there's no power source.

 

I've used both of the above alternatives for remote powered amateur radio transmission scenarios that involve far more clean power requirements and higher current draw to power radios, computers, RF power amplifiers, lighting, etc.

 

Happy New Year.

[jbuhajla]

Something like this would work very well if it is a feasible option for you. 

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-Bluetooth-2-300-Watt-Super-Quiet-Gasoline-Powered-Digital-Inverter-Generator-RYI2300BTA/300347426

[mcfingrs]

Overkill for busking, dude.

When the question is: "I wonder what PeterHamm thinks of me busking with a Helix?" this response will be respected, dude.

[PeterHamm]

When the question is: "I wonder what PeterHamm thinks of me busking with a Helix?" this response will be respected, dude.

 

 

Laugh if you will, but we are talking about playing music in a noisy environment that people hear just a bit of, for the most part, as they pass by.

[mcfingrs]

MusicLaw has a good point to run an Ammeter on it for actual power usage. the 60 Watts is rated max, so it probably doesn't hit that draw and probably operates significantly less.

 

Well, I don't know what internal voltage the Helix is operating at, and I wouldn't want to make any assumptions. I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. I can't recommend trying to bypass the Helix's internal power supply. A battery powerpack like this should still give you a pretty long run time... https://www.duracellpower.com/products/duracell-300-watt-powerpack-pro

 

I understand your point about inversion inefficiencies, but, still, 60W is a pretty small load to power for a few hours.

 

Here's why this isn't as simple as your solution:

5a / 12v = 60 watts

for planning (battery capacity deteriorates, so conservative estimates will last longer over time and use):

6 hours play time

360 watt hours / equals 30 amp hours

include the 85% inverter inefficiency = 55.5 amp hours

for deep cycle batteries, damage occurs at greater than 50% discharge:

111 amp hours for 6 hours of Helix play time.

 

 

The reason this makes me nuts is, all the other gear (6 other devices for 6 hours) only needs 23 amp hours and doesn't require inversion.

Using the same calculations above minus inversion: I need 46 amp hours (round to 50) for all other devices, and 111 amp hours for Helix because of the insanity of Inverting DC to AC, to power a device that wants DC in the first place.

 

Something like this would work very well if it is a feasible option for you. 

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-Bluetooth-2-300-Watt-Super-Quiet-Gasoline-Powered-Digital-Inverter-Generator-RYI2300BTA/300347426

Thanks for this reccomendation jbuhajla - I never really considered a gas generator, and these are appreciably quiet.

The 1000w @$400 would make the rig simpler to design and operate, and would cost about the same as a deep-cell battery battery solution.

But it's not as "green" or techie cool, and is not silent.

[phil_m]

Here's why this isn't as simple as your solution:

5a / 12v = 60 watts

for planning (battery capacity deteriorates, so conservative estimates will last longer over time and use):

6 hours play time

360 watt hours / equals 30 amp hours

include the 85% inverter inefficiency = 55.5 amp hours

for deep cycle batteries, damage occurs at greater than 50% discharge:

111 amp hours for 6 hours of Helix play time.

 

 

The reason this makes me nuts is, all the other gear (6 other devices for 6 hours) only needs 23 amp hours and doesn't require inversion.

Using the same calculations above minus inversion: I need 46 amp hours (round to 50) for all other devices, and 111 amp hours for Helix because of the insanity of Inverting DC to AC, to power a device that wants DC in the first place.

 

Well, the number of people wanting to run Helix on a battery system is a tiny percentage... With previous Line 6 devices, one of the most common requests was to have a universal, internal power supply, so Line 6 built the Helix with that in mind. From an international sales standpoint, having the universal IEC connector on back makes things a lot easier.

 

But I can't imagine the normal running load of the Helix is anything near 60W. I would bet it's somewhere between 30 and 40W.

[mileskb]

My experience with power ratings on devices.... TEST IT.   I don't trust ANY numbers or ratings any more.  I have a separate battery I use on my boat that I plug stuff into like cell phones and fans and whatnot.   If I followed the ratings...  I would never bothered buying the battery.  Same thing happened with my little electric inflatable boat...  I bought a small agm motorcycle battery and can run the thing for several hour...    the "rating" says I should only get a couple hours at the most in optimal conditions.

 

Much like setting up audio systems...  all the math in the world is fun... but you don't really know what you have until you power it up.

[jbuhajla]

I saw a 400Wh and 1000Wh version of these at Costco this weekend. Expensive but nice little units. 

 

If the Helix is 60W peak (AC) and the Power Station is 400Wh, then on paper you can get a little over 6 hours use. Now deduct the inverter section efficiency even at 50%, still gets you 3 hours of play time. That is also considering the 60W peak at the Helix, which is probably only at power up. 

 

 

http://www.goalzero.com/p/165/goal-zero-yeti-400-portable-power-station

[HonestOpinion]

Something like this would work very well if it is a feasible option for you. 

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-Bluetooth-2-300-Watt-Super-Quiet-Gasoline-Powered-Digital-Inverter-Generator-RYI2300BTA/300347426

 

Thanks for posting this link. I wonder if this generator is truly as quiet as they claim? Every gas powered generator I have ever used is fine for a full band but too loud for busking and would be prone to angering neighboring businesses. 

[MusicLaw]

The Goal Zero YETI is a nice unit, but overpriced for their price per watt. A Plastic Tote/tub/footlocker, A high Amp hour capacity Marine or Automotive battery, a top quality AC Inverter unit, and a hand truck all strapped together would cost a whole lot less and may be more multipurpose capable.

 

The Honda EU2000i Generator is the benchmark. I have one I've used for years for all sorts of camping, and remote location ham radio transmission power requirements, power tools, etc. Rock solid, quite, sips fuel, very clean power, always works. I have a 6 gallon accessory fuel tank that connects by replacing the generator's fuel cap, and extends the run time out to about 72 hours!

 

Harbor Freight has an inverter Predator 2000 Generator. The Predator 2000 is half the price of the Honda 2000. Never used one.

 

Amazon also lists numerous models at various prices from leading brands.

[jbuhajla]

Thanks for posting this link. I wonder if this generator is truly as quiet as they claim? Every gas powered generator I have ever used is fine for a full band but too loud for busking and would be prone to angering neighboring businesses. 

The Ryobi is pretty quiet, not as quiet as the Honda models, but 1/2 the price of the Honda. 

[AlienSexGod]

I would be willing to buy a Helix LT and break the warranty to tap into 12V DC if a Line ^ person could confirm that the internal voltage is 12V DC for busking use.

 

People saying overkill... well why not be pro on the street also? Being able to tweak a great guit sound EQ'd for you busking PA would be great! Could also use a Variax on the street with it!

 

Any Line 6 people or service agents willing to tell us? You will get another sale out of it? :-)

[PerS]

If need to power the Helix with inverter/generator then perhaps consiering add room for a powered monitor in the rating too.

//Per

[AlienSexGod]

On 1/3/2018 at 2:27 AM, mcfingrs said:

include the 85% inverter inefficiency = 55.5 amp hours

 

 

All you guys suggesting an invertor have undermined McFingers thread when 90% chance the internal voltage inside a Helix LT is 12 or 18v DC anyway  so saving 8%%of power from running a rug on a battery and a solar cell makes reasonable sense. It's beyond pathetic that no one in Line 6 has gotten back to us. This is 22 years into the 21st century, we should be going green and sustainable. I have a 12V stereo PA, a Variax and a Kemper.... I would but a Helix LT again if someone told me what the voltage is behind the stepdown transformer?

[datacommando]

10 hours ago, AlienSexGod said:

It's beyond pathetic that no one in Line 6 has gotten back to us.

 

Not really - there is a sticky post in the first black banner across the top of these pages which states:

 

"Line 6 has appointed the Line 6 Experts to moderate the forums, but occasionally, Line 6 staff will post to certain threads. As these are community support forums, please remember that your post is not a direct message to Line 6. If you need to contact our technical staff, please do so at www.Line6.com/support. Also, please submit your product ideas at line6.ideascale.com so the community can vote up the best ideas."

 

Line 6 staff do not monitor this forum and rarely visit here. If you wish to attract their attention then, possibly, the best place to post your concern is either in the Digital and Modelling section of The Gear Page, or the huge Facebook Helix Family group, where they are known to hang out. 

 

Plus, it has been almost 4 years since you last asked about a battery powered Helix LT? Must have been really important?

 

Hope the helps/makes sense.

 

EDIT:

Check this - just showed up on Farce buck

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10166454131930341&set=gm.2028714010643977

Edited March 5, 2022 by datacommando
Added link

[CraigGT]

I checked and mine is using 22W or 170mA at 240V

I don't know how  that relates to 110V but I don't think the power would change much.

[AlienSexGod]

On 3/5/2022 at 1:46 AM, datacommando said:

Plus, it has been almost 4 years since you last asked about a battery powered Helix LT? Must have been really important?

 

Hope the helps/makes sense.

 

All make sense except for the snide, erroneous and uncalled for judgement at the end. Accidents and sh1t happens in people's life and priorities change and re-emerge when emergencies and rehab are handled.

 

Thanks for the tip however.

[AlienSexGod]

On 3/5/2022 at 1:49 AM, CraigGT said:

I checked and mine is using 22W or 170mA at 240V

I don't know how  that relates to 110V but I don't think the power would change much.

 

How did you check this? Behind the transformer it would be the same internal voltage and draw but externally mA is double @ 120V compared to 240V I believe. Are you running on a battery system using an invertor sometimes?

[loonsailor]

You could use an HX Effects instead.  It runs on DC power, so no inverter needed.  If you’re using a decent amp you don’t really need the amp modeling part of the Helix anyway, or you could follow the HXFX with an amp simulator pedal (even a cheap Mooer or similar should do for busking) that also runs on DC.

[CraigGT]

20 hours ago, AlienSexGod said:

 

How did you check this? Behind the transformer it would be the same internal voltage and draw but externally mA is double @ 120V compared to 240V I believe. Are you running on a battery system using an invertor sometimes?

 

No, I used a plug in power meter.

Yes I suspect half the voltage, double the current will still equal around 22W 

 

Craig

[silverhead]

1 hour ago, MGW-Alberta said:

If busking with a Helix seems reasonable to you   …..

Yeah. I think a used battery powered Pocket Pod (about $50 Cdn used) which can literally be carried in your pocket, sitting on top of whatever other piece of equipment you want would satisfy the tonal quality and expectations for the busking crowd. Using Helix is not likely to improve your donations/tips. If you need vocals use a PA speaker with a mic input. 
 

Or, wait for the day that some drunken tourist spills his beer on your Helix….

[AlienSexGod]

On 3/8/2022 at 12:00 PM, silverhead said:

Yeah. I think a used battery powered Pocket Pod (about $50 Cdn used) which can literally be carried in your pocket, sitting on top of whatever other piece of equipment you want would satisfy the tonal quality and expectations for the busking crowd. Using Helix is not likely to improve your donations/tips. If you need vocals use a PA speaker with a mic input. 
 

Or, wait for the day that some drunken tourist spills his beer on your Helix….

 

Again your "expert" opinions are useless. You haven't done many professional gigs it seems and you AssUme a lot and make an lollipop (out of) U (&) Me... but many out of you.

 

Over the years I have see a guy in a pub decide to give the laptop that was running backing tracks a beer. That was fixed by flipping it upside down ASAP and a hairdryer job saved it. So a guy accidently spilling beer on a Helix can happen in a club just as easily as busking and these days you can make more busking than many gigs as small business people are ripped off something severe.

 

All the opinions on using something else , including stomp wouldn't give me Variax connection and power to the Variax  hence I asked for Helix LT. Suggestions of using power convertors and wasting 85% of power or getting power cabs etc are just silly when clearly pro buskers already have 12 quality PAs sorted. All we need is Line Six to tell us whats inside or give us an LT with 12v input.

[phowell]

Revisiting the idea of a high capacity battery source for Helix floor. Can anyone offer an opinion on whether or not this would be viable?

Krisdonia AC Outlet Portable Charger 60000mAh 110V/130W Laptop Power Bank with AC Outlet, 2 USB QC 3.0 and Type-C for Laptop, CPAP, Drone, Projector, Smartphone and Others https://a.co/d/eMzGgWX

[MusicLaw]

Pricey, but it looks like it should do the job! As Amazon purchases are now suitable for returns through the end of January '23, give it a try and if it proves to be unsatisfactory, send it back for a refund. Post back your findings to share with others here on the Forum.

[mstaff1611]

So... did some testing heres the numbers i have for us...

 

Equipment used: 

Bioenno 12v/70Ah battery@ 14.32V @65°F p/n BLF1270A

Mounted in a:

Powerwerks "Megabox" enclosure w/ 45A Anderson Power Poles on 18" of P.Werks 10Ga. Multistranded copper wireI

Amazon Inverter:

POTEK power inverter

500W Pure Sine Wave

model# PI500-AP-RED

Load values from Power Werks

inline DC watt meter w/Anderson Power Poles.

No Load Inverter #'s

0.13A 14.32V

0.23Ap(sag) 1.8W

0.007Ah 2.0W

HelixLT Load #'s

0.91A 14.04V

0.5Wh 12.7W

1.71A 13.99V

0.062 Ah 23.9W

 

Hope that help plan to do more testing will try to post more results as i use this set up in outdoor gigs.

 

 

[worunstod]

I saw a 400Wh and 1000Wh version of these at Costco this weekend. Expensive but nice little units.