Global Volume Boost Control?

[nitrous12]

I am getting a Helix this week and I am in the process of planning some stuff ahead of time and reading/watching videos on how to do some of what I know I will want.  I have an HD500 and have used the 4CM setup with it and other units so I'm not starting totally from scratch.

A very important function for me is a clean boost going into the FX return of my high gain amp (Bogner Helios) to bump up the volume for leads.  No gain or EQ change, just volume.  I see some ways to do this within a snapshot or preset, but what I would really like is a way to globally control it so that if I find from gig to gig I need a slightly higher or lower amount, I can change it once and not have to go into each snapshot/preset once I find exaclty what I need.

Long way to get to the question...can the Global Output level be assigned to a footswitch that goes from say 0dB when 'off' and 3dB when 'on'?

 

Thanks in advance

[rd2rk]

15 minutes ago, nitrous12 said:

Long way to get to the question...can the Global Output level be assigned to a footswitch that goes from say 0dB when 'off' and 3dB when 'on'?

 

Short answer - NO.

 

BUT.....you can use the Global EQ to adjust for a given room, including Level.

[nitrous12]

So the Global EQ has a signal level adjustment that will act as a clean volume boost in this scenario?  Kinda like the signal slider on a Boss GE7?  

[phil_m]

6 minutes ago, nitrous12 said:

So the Global EQ has a signal level adjustment that will act as a clean volume boost in this scenario?  Kinda like the signal slider on a Boss GE7?  

 

It does, but there's no way to turn the Global EQ on or off with a footswitch or anything like that.

 

There isn't a way to do what you're describing in a global manner. You'd have to set something up in every preset.

[themetallikid]

your best option is to put a Gain Block wherever before your out to the amp and set it to whatever boost you want.  

 

I don't play with external amps but I'd imagine that would be the cleanest boost you could get, unless you like the 0 Drive, ? Level settings of a certain pedal.

[rd2rk]

47 minutes ago, nitrous12 said:

So the Global EQ has a signal level adjustment that will act as a clean volume boost in this scenario?  Kinda like the signal slider on a Boss GE7?  

 

Yes, but you can't turn it on/off with a footswitch. It solves the problem of needing an overall higher level at a specific gig, but not needing a lead boost.

If you'd rather not use a gain block, you can assign the Level in the Output Block to a footswitch. Set the Min (OFF) to 0db and the Max (ON) to whatever you need.

Either way, you might want to consider creating a Template that uses this and your other most common settings, then use that as a starting point when creating new presets.

That won't help if you want to use other people's presets, but what fun is that anyway?

[nitrous12]

Bummer. 

I'm pretty simple when it comes to effects, but I do envision a few snapshots that will utilize the expression pedal in different ways. Hoping I won't have too many to adjust or that I find a value that pretty much works from one show to the next. 

[nitrous12]

So I just caught in a video about snapshots that you can either adjust parameters of an object just within that snapshot or do it in a way that is adjusting across all snapshots. I think that's my ticket. I'll likely be able to do what I need in a single preset with multiple snapshots. 

I guess the only other thing I'm still unsure of with the snapshots is if each within a preset can only contain the same objects or if you can have different effect blocks from one to the next?

[Fenderflame28]

Hi  Nitrous

 

I made the switch a couple of months ago from HD500X to Helix and I used to do the same trick with 4CM previously as you do. The Helix offers you many more ways to do this. There's a good video here that explains 5 different ways to add a volume boost.  

 

 

The first few would also affect the tone. I have his number 5 suggestion (about 6:30 on the video) set up in every preset. This is really easy to do. You just set it up in an empty preset and then copy this preset to all others in a setlist. This is like setting it up as a master template so whatever else you put in the preset you will always have a clean boost assigned in the same place. The great thing is that it doesn't take up an effect block, just a footswitch.

[rd2rk]

1 hour ago, nitrous12 said:

Bummer. 

I'm pretty simple when it comes to effects, but I do envision a few snapshots that will utilize the expression pedal in different ways. Hoping I won't have too many to adjust or that I find a value that pretty much works from one show to the next. 

 

12 minutes ago, nitrous12 said:

So I just caught in a video about snapshots that you can either adjust parameters of an object just within that snapshot or do it in a way that is adjusting across all snapshots. I think that's my ticket. I'll likely be able to do what I need in a single preset with multiple snapshots. 

I guess the only other thing I'm still unsure of with the snapshots is if each within a preset can only contain the same objects or if you can have different effect blocks from one to the next?

 

I seem to have missed something. You originally wanted to know:

 

1) how to adjust the Global Output Level, to raise it across all presets, preferably from a globally assigned footswitch. We've established that you can't do that, but the Global EQ can be used to raise the level across all presets. You just have to turn it on and set it at the beginning of the gig. FWIW - this solves the universal problem of "My amp was loud enough in the first set, but now it isn't!" Just increase the level in the Global EQ.

 

2) A Gain Boost for Leads. We've established that it can't be done Globally, but if you create a template with a Gain Boost (either a Gain Block or FS assigned to preset Output Level) and use it to create new presets, that pretty much does the same thing.

 

What you're now asking seems to be something new? 

[lungho]

5 minutes ago, nitrous12 said:

I guess the only other thing I'm still unsure of with the snapshots is if each within a preset can only contain the same objects or if you can have different effect blocks from one to the next?

 

A preset is comprised of a combination of blocks.  You can have as many effect blocks within your preset as you want....until you either run out of DSP or space to insert new blocks.  The types of blocks do not change across snapshots within a preset, only the state of the blocks do.  You can use snapshots to turn the blocks on or off or change the parameters of each block.  This is a convenient way of controlling multiple blocks with multiple parameters without having to do a tap dance.

 

I hope that made sense.  

[rd2rk]

21 minutes ago, nitrous12 said:

I guess the only other thing I'm still unsure of with the snapshots is if each within a preset can only contain the same objects or if you can have different effect blocks from one to the next?

 

You can change the parameter values of the effects in a preset, but not the effects themselves.

[nitrous12]

44 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

 

I seem to have missed something. You originally wanted to know:

 

1) how to adjust the Global Output Level, to raise it across all presets, preferably from a globally assigned footswitch. We've established that you can't do that, but the Global EQ can be used to raise the level across all presets. You just have to turn it on and set it at the beginning of the gig. FWIW - this solves the universal problem of "My amp was loud enough in the first set, but now it isn't!" Just increase the level in the Global EQ.

 

2) A Gain Boost for Leads. We've established that it can't be done Globally, but if you create a template with a Gain Boost (either a Gain Block or FS assigned to preset Output Level) and use it to create new presets, that pretty much does the same thing.

 

What you're now asking seems to be something new? 

Yes, sorry something new. Looks like the other folks answered me. 

Thanks to all for the responses!

[codamedia]

4 hours ago, nitrous12 said:

I have an HD500 and have used the 4CM setup with it and other units so I'm not starting totally from scratch.

A very important function for me is a clean boost going into the FX return of my high gain amp (Bogner Helios) to bump up the volume for leads.  No gain or EQ change, just volume. 

 

I'm curious... how did you accomplish a "global boost" with the HD500? 

[nitrous12]

1 hour ago, codamedia said:

 

I'm curious... how did you accomplish a "global boost" with the HD500? 

 

I didn't.  That comment was misleading.  I just meant that I have set up multi-processors like this in 4CM before and have made them do many of the things I wanted.  I recall setting up some volume boost method in the HD500, but it was not global on that either.  I never used the HD500 in 4CM in my main band, but intend to replace my current board with the Helix and run 4CM.

[codamedia]

4 minutes ago, nitrous12 said:

 

I didn't.  That comment was misleading.  I just meant that I have set up multi-processors like this in 4CM before and have made them do many of the things I wanted.  I recall setting up some volume boost method in the HD500, but it was not global on that either.  I never used the HD500 in 4CM in my main band, but intend to replace my current board with the Helix and run 4CM.

 

Thanks for clarifying... :) 

[SaschaFranck]

May I say that problems such as this would be another proof of why global blocks would just be incredibly nice to have? With a gain block set to "global", all this would be just a piece of cake.

 

However, while I haven't tried myself yet, in case you don't need the external EXP pedal option for anything else, you could just hook a footswitch up there. The EXP position can be set to global, so the Helix would remember it's position even when switching patches. Assign a volume block to it in all patches (a pretty trivial task) or use a "relative volume tweak" on the output block (again on all patches, not as trivial as the volume block, though) and bob should be your uncle. I will try myself later on to see whether that works.

[SaschaFranck]

Ok, just tried, works exactly as described, you can hook up a switch to EXP 2/3, assign it to a gain blocks bypass and it'll work globally. If you do it like this, don't forget to deactivate snapshot bypass (for the gain block).

[talonmm]

I had a very similar need recently as I purchased a power cab standard and found my hx-stomp and helix floor needed to be louder to work with this powered speaker. 

 

I purchased a used tc mini boost.  It's a very powerful and very clean boost.  I send my signal from the helix into the boost and can make every tone equally louder. 

 

Works like a charm as long as it's after the helix in the chain.

 

[Fenderflame28]

I've found this button on the Helix that might help 

[talonmm]

that's clever and great.  But what happens if your helix volume knob is at the max?

[codamedia]

4 hours ago, Fenderflame28 said:

I've found this button on the Helix that might help 

 

This thread is about having a "global Boost" on a footswitch.... where you only have to set the boost signal one time, and it applies to all presets! That is very different from simply turning up the volume. 

 

Personally... I find that presets often need different "boost" levels not "one size fits all" so I can't really relate to the request. BUT - the OP has a need and is asking how to do it, in those cases, we try to help whether we agree or not :) 

[talonmm]

 

7 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

This thread is about having a "global Boost" on a footswitch.... where you only have to set the boost signal one time, and it applies to all presets! That is very different from simply turning up the volume. 

 

Personally... I find that presets often need different "boost" levels not "one size fits all" so I can't really relate to the request. BUT - the OP has a need and is asking how to do it, in those cases, we try to help whether we agree or not :) 

 

I just reread the op request.  He wants to uniformly add volume when needed for an entire gig.  Once.  He makes no mention of needed a dedicated footswitch on the helix.  My suggestion works just fine and will add appropriate volume on every single tone.

[rd2rk]

3 hours ago, talonmm said:

 

 

I just reread the op request.  He wants to uniformly add volume when needed for an entire gig.  Once.  He makes no mention of needed a dedicated footswitch on the helix.  My suggestion works just fine and will add appropriate volume on every single tone.

 

On 1/29/2020 at 1:33 PM, nitrous12 said:

Long way to get to the question...can the Global Output level be assigned to a footswitch that goes from say 0dB when 'off' and 3dB when 'on'?

 

 

OP DID ask for a footswitch, and we've established that there's no way GLOBALLY to do that. Using Global EQ is the closest I can come but, again, no footswitch solution.

 

An external clean boost will work, but most of us would like to avoid additional external devices if possible.

 

As for using the seemingly obvious "BIG KNOB", there are some who believe that, since that volume control is not analog, it occurs in the digital realm prior to the DA converter, that it diminishes the quality of the sound when you turn it down. Has to do with bits and some sort of digital gobbledy-lollipop discussed elsewhere in another thread with reference to posts by high-end tone-sniffers on some Audio forum. Anyhow, the idea is that for maximum tone quality you should leave that BIG KNOB fully UP (UNITY GAIN).

 

I don't buy it, because I can't hear it, but that doesn't mean it's not true and, for those who claim to be able to hear it, using the BIG KNOB is not an option.

 

The story so far:

The BIG KNOB will work if you're not concerned with possible tone-suck.

An external clean boost between the Helix and your amp will work if you're OK with an additional purchase and the resultant extra stage real estate required.

The Global EQ will work if you're not already using it for it's primary purpose of EQing for a specific room, or don't mind increasing it's output level mid-gig, which could affect the EQ....

You could just turn up the master on the amp but, if you're using a tube amp, that could affect the distortion.

 

Any other ideas? Pick your poison?

 

 

 

 

 

[rd2rk]

Political correctness strikes again!

Gobbledy-g00k gets the lollipop treatment!

ROFLMAO!

[cruisinon2]

28 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

 

OP DID ask for a footswitch, and we've established that there's no way GLOBALLY to do that. Using Global EQ is the closest I can come but, again, no footswitch solution.

 

An external clean boost will work, but most of us would like to avoid additional external devices if possible.

 

As for using the seemingly obvious "BIG KNOB", there are some who believe that, since that volume control is not analog, it occurs in the digital realm prior to the DA converter, that it diminishes the quality of the sound when you turn it down. Has to do with bits and some sort of digital gobbledy-lollipop discussed elsewhere in another thread with reference to posts by high-end tone-sniffers on some Audio forum. Anyhow, the idea is that for maximum tone quality you should leave that BIG KNOB fully UP (UNITY GAIN).

 

I don't buy it, because I can't hear it, but that doesn't mean it's not true and, for those who claim to be able to hear it, using the BIG KNOB is not an option.

 

The story so far:

The BIG KNOB will work if you're not concerned with possible tone-suck.

An external clean boost between the Helix and your amp will work if you're OK with an additional purchase and the resultant extra stage real estate required.

The Global EQ will work if you're not already using it for it's primary purpose of EQing for a specific room, or don't mind increasing it's output level mid-gig, which could affect the EQ....

You could just turn up the master on the amp but, if you're using a tube amp, that could affect the distortion.

 

Any other ideas? Pick your poison?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Uhhhh... you said "big knob", huh- huh.

[codamedia]

6 hours ago, talonmm said:

I just reread the op request.  He wants to uniformly add volume when needed for an entire gig.  Once.  He makes no mention of needed a dedicated footswitch on the helix. 

 

OP wants a GLOBAL BOOST that can be assigned to a footswitch that he can kick in/out as needed for solo's. OP finds that his BOOST LEVEL may need to be different from gig to gig, that is the heart of the problem. 

 

Please read this sentence from the opening post which makes it pretty clear ....

 

On 1/29/2020 at 2:33 PM, nitrous12 said:

Long way to get to the question...can the Global Output level be assigned to a footswitch that goes from say 0dB when 'off' and 3dB when 'on'?

 

6 hours ago, talonmm said:

My suggestion works just fine and will add appropriate volume on every single tone.

 

Your solution of an external boost between the Helix out and Amp return certainly works, and can be kicked in/out as needed. Since the Helix cannot do this internally, your solution is (what I consider) the best and easiest option. 

[SaschaFranck]

Did I ever mention on this forum that global blocks would be nice to have for such things? I'm sure I haven't, so here we go: Global blocks would be nice to have for these kinda things!

[rd2rk]

On 1/29/2020 at 1:33 PM, nitrous12 said:

A very important function for me is a clean boost going into the FX return of my high gain amp (Bogner Helios) to bump up the volume for leads.  No gain or EQ change, just volume.  I see some ways to do this within a snapshot or preset, but what I would really like is a way to globally control it so that if I find from gig to gig I need a slightly higher or lower amount, I can change it once and not have to go into each snapshot/preset once I find exaclty what I need.

Long way to get to the question...can the Global Output level be assigned to a footswitch that goes from say 0dB when 'off' and 3dB when 'on'?

 

It isn't clear what exactly he's asking for.

 

He wants a CLEAN BOOST FOR LEADS into the Power Amp Return of a Tube Amp, showing that he doesn't really understand gain staging and tube amps.

 

He wants a way to GLOBALLY CHANGE IT  to accommodate different needs at specific gigs.

 

He wants it on a FOOTSWITCH, which makes sense for LEADS but doesn't much matter as an overall gig setting.

 

So, everybody's suggestions work for one problem or the other, but none of them resolve the problem of increasing the level into a tube power amp and the resulting distortion, which means that no truly clean boost is possible.

 

He wants a UNICORN!

 

Put it on Ideascale, maybe we can get it in the FREE PONY update!

 

[cruisinon2]

6 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

He wants a UNICORN!

 

Put it on Ideascale, maybe we can get it in the FREE PONY update!

 

 

Hey hey hey... if you get your unicorn before I get my pony, then we're gonna have words! I've been waiting forever...;)

[talonmm]

One last thing I'd like to add as one of the posters mentioned  precious real estate considerations and the cost of a booster.

 

I totally realize some may have to factor in these issues and challenges.

 

My solution of a dedicated boost came out of the need to sometimes increase volume when my hx-stomp and my helix floor were turned up to the max and I needed more volume when using the Power Cab standard and other powered speakers and needed more volume. (Please don't tell me to boost the PC standard, that option was not designed into this model. 

 

I purchased a used TC mini spark for around $30.00 on ebay and I built a pedal board 4" x 4" that I place close to my powered speaker (either on top or behind or on the floor).

 

The purpose of the 4 inch x 4 inch pedal board  was so that I could permanently attach  a boost and adapter and ac chord and quickly set up for a gig or jam.  A 4x4 inch board is very light and easily fits into my gig bag and takes up just about zero real estate.

 

This solution cost about $30.00 to make (I had wood, paint, extra cables, extra velcro) etc. and works for my needs.

 

It seems to boost every tone on-the-fly by the same ratio and if the drummer or other guitarist turns up, I'm right there with them, and I can turn up my boost as needed, on the fly.

 

This solution may not needed by many, and my solution does not work for every need, but it's a low-cost, quick-fix solution that does not add space requirements to pedal boards or the space you need on stage or in practice.

 

[SaschaFranck]

Fwiw, I can totally understand the need for certain on the fly boosts (or cuts) of the overall level, even while playing (hence coming along with a footswitchable option). I'm currently in a band project where everything works fine with my standard patch, but there's 2 tunes where things can get pretty loud (not always, just sometimes) and one where it could as well become less loud than usual. For that very project, I'd really like to have a switch allowing me to cycle between 3 volume states.

[SaschaFranck]

And btw, it'd be just as useful sitting right in the beginning of the signal chain to compensate for different guitar output levels. Oh yes, I know, there's gonna be the "well, it's one of the things you just deal with and it's also why guitars have different output levels" comments - fine if you think so, but I would still like such an option. And I could even elaborate why this is making *much* sense for me and why I had a little boost/cut box in front of my old pedal board for just that single purpose.

[codamedia]

19 hours ago, rd2rk said:

He wants a CLEAN BOOST FOR LEADS into the Power Amp Return of a Tube Amp, showing that he doesn't really understand gain staging and tube amps.

 

Actually... providing he has left enough headroom at the power amp that is the best place for a boost. 

 

Placing a boost anywhere else in the chain effects EVERYTHING down chain including the power amp... having it at the very end only effects the overall volume.... (again)... providing he has left enough headroom available. 

[rd2rk]

2 hours ago, codamedia said:

Actually... providing he has left enough headroom at the power amp that is the best place for a boost. 

 

No argument, the emphasis was on CLEAN. A bit nit-picky, I know, since the rest of what you said is more important, but I was feeling a bit nit-picky....

[SaschaFranck]

Fwiw, and that's something against using an external boost, I usually prefer to place global volume boosts (if I need them) in front of delays and reverbs. Otherwise, you could run into activating them while there's still some delay/reverb trails going on and the boost would hence boost these.

[CraigGT]

On 1/31/2020 at 6:04 PM, rd2rk said:

Political correctness strikes again!

Gobbledy-g00k gets the lollipop treatment!

ROFLMAO!

My favourite example of that was on a thread about getting a surf reverb effect, it took me ages to work out who Lollipop Dale was :-)

 

Craig

[nitrous12]

My apologies if this was not clear. 

On any non PPIMV amp I have ever had, if you put a simple signal boost in the loop it will push the volume up. No gain change and no tone change as long as it is a clean, neutral signal boost. 

 

That same boost in front of a high gain amp or into a PPIMV amp may result in some volume increase, but mainly just more gain. 

 

Prior to the Helix I have been using an Empress ParaEQ, which has a switchable EQ and separate switchable boost, in the loop of my Bogner Helios. I set my rhythm tone, gain and volume for sitting in the mix during most of the song. I get to my guitar solo and I want that same tone and gain at a louder volume. Hence the CLEAN boost comment and the need for it to be footswitchable. Kick in extra volume with the boost side of the ParaEQ, play solo, kick back down to rhythm volume. 

 

I see ways to do this very same thing with the Helix in 4CM. Gain block for instance, after the amps preamp so it is feeding the preamp tone and gain level into the amps Power section at a higher level to increase volume only. Put the Gain block on a footswitch. 

 

The Issue of it not being global comes in when I find during a given gig that the Gain blocks level I have built is too high or too low. I do now see how I can adjust it via the stomp switches edit mode and the expression pedal and it will save those settings across all Snapshots, or just manually adjust in a way that applies to all Snapshots. I will be using a few Presets though so that's a pain. 

 

The Solo volume feature on many Mesas is great for this. My TC-100 has it and it is midi controlled. So far I've done all my Helix exploring with the TC where I am using the amps clean volume boost (Solo) controlled with midi and it is working out very well. 

 

The TC is new and I am liking it, but I love my Helios too and want to build presets around it, which means I need the Helix to provide the boost in the loop for solos.  The whole point of this thing was to ditch my pedals and big, heavy pedal board and have a lighter, more portable all in one unit. 

[SaschaFranck]

3 hours ago, nitrous12 said:

The Issue of it not being global comes in when I find during a given gig that the Gain blocks level I have built is too high or too low. I do now see how I can adjust it via the stomp switches edit mode and the expression pedal and it will save those settings across all Snapshots, or just manually adjust in a way that applies to all Snapshots. I will be using a few Presets though so that's a pain.

 

I know that I'm sounding like a broken record, but this very example perfectly illustrates why I'm asking for a global block feature more than anything else. It'd solve this and a whole lot of somewhat related issues instantly.

You could use it to adjust amp channel levels throughout patches, to adjust (or even completely turn down) reverb levels, should you be using an external unit in a larger setup, heck, you could even use it to globally switch your cabs on/off, something people are asking for all the time, etc. Instead of cramming as much as possible into one patch you could spread the load (and switch/snapshot assignments, which I'm constantly running out of) over various patches as adjusting their "core content" could be done within just a single patch. You could as well have a gain (or EQ) block at the beginning of your signal chain to slightly compensate for different guitars. And there's possibly a whole world of further things this would be extremely great for.

Of course, all this is assuming you're using the same components all throughout the patches that you want to treat globally. But many people do just that (or wish for it, see this very thread). For instance, all throughout my live patches, so far I have only used 4 amp models in total on a whole number of pretty much completely different gigs. And they're always at pretty much the same settings - minus those adjustments I do on the fly to accomodate the gig, which is precisely what the global block feature would be able to do.

With all my previous setups, I have been able to turn them from loungy bar jazz into almost full riff/shred heaven while keeping my preset "architecture" exactly the same - simply by adjusting a mere handful (or two) of parameters globally. This would save you from *lots* of editing work, from plenty of "save as"-es, it'll give you *way* better control over your sound should you run into whatever issues (different band, different venue, different sound system, different mood, etc.).