Helix vs HD500: Some feedback as to why the sound of the HD is better

[markwesse]

Ive talked before about trying to port sounds between the 2 and of course they dont...not even close

BUT

Lately I have started just using some simple actual physical cabs and can now define why exactly I wrestle so much with the Helix which is of course superior in so many ways...

 

The diff is this: When you plug the HD500 into a physical cab and turn the cab emulation off; When you play, the dynamics are much more direct and the level of soft to loud playing is large...just as if you were playing into an actual amp

When you do the same with the Helix, with identical amp models etc and using only an amp...the sound is much more hifi but it just doesnt jump out anywhere near as much as the HD which is really gutsy...the relationship of tone>dynamics is small and compressed.

 

So if you just want really good tone (and fx arent the backbone of your sound); send through a physical cab that you like the sound of...the helix is no match and you will save yourself a lot of bucks

 

Before flaming me or speaking without knowing...try it first...Im happy to send the presets...even dial them in a bit closer.
I spoke quite a lot before on the diff between the HD/Helix model of the Fender Twin Vib channel model...this also makes it perfectly clear...the Helix is a step back in actual authenticity of tone in this type of application

 

Im using r88 ribbon to record and its chalk and cheese

 

Im writing this to help others who may be looking for information

 

Conversely I also play classical...in which the helix is much better if you keep a bunch of chips for the mic preamp as they fry by just looking at them. Ive been doing studio workd for 40 years and never had a fry of phantom power ever and that has been with interns hot plugging etc...do it once on the Helix and you will need a new chip.

Long live the HD500 for clean/crunch tones with guts!!

[DunedinDragon]

I have no doubt that you believe everything you say about the tone you're getting and how impressed you are about the differences between the HD500 and the Helix.  I also believe that, based on the description of what and how you play, you're more of a marginal case than most of us.  After getting my Helix over 15 years ago I got rid of my HD500 because I saw no need for it.  And over the last 15 years I've also gotten rid of every traditional amp and physical cabinet I owned for the same reason.  Everything I play or perform on goes direct to a mixing board either live or in the studio.  I may represent the far extreme from the way you approach modeling, so my experience is quite different.  I also have a long history of live performance and studio work dating back to the late 60's, so I'm no novice.

 

I wouldn't say I specialize in any particular genre of music.  I've played rock, blues, country, jazz, funk, punk, aggressive metal, melodic acoustic either strummed or fingerpicked  using various electric and acoustic guitars as well as banjo and resonator guitars.  I'm not a big advocate of drenching anything I play with effects as I only want to achieve a functionally accurate tone that sits well in a mix with other instruments and matches the feel of the genre I'm playing.  Based on that description of how and what I play there is no doubt in my mind I would never be as happy with the results of working with an HD500 as I am with the Helix.

 

The reason I say that last statement is based on the fact that I'm not trying to please myself when I dial in a preset, I'm trying to achieve a sound my audience will identify with based on their music listening experience whether on a recording or live.  In all of my years recording and playing live that's only become possible with my Helix as the core unit for processing my sound.

[theElevators]

On 6/22/2023 at 7:22 AM, DunedinDragon said:

I have no doubt that you believe everything you say about the tone you're getting and how impressed you are about the differences between the HD500 and the Helix.  I also believe that, based on the description of what and how you play, you're more of a marginal case than most of us.  After getting my Helix over 15 years ago I got rid of my HD500 because I saw no need for it.  And over the last 15 years I've also gotten rid of every traditional amp and physical cabinet I owned for the same reason.  Everything I play or perform on goes direct to a mixing board either live or in the studio.  I may represent the far extreme from the way you approach modeling, so my experience is quite different.  I also have a long history of live performance and studio work dating back to the late 60's, so I'm no novice.

 

I wouldn't say I specialize in any particular genre of music.  I've played rock, blues, country, jazz, funk, punk, aggressive metal, melodic acoustic either strummed or fingerpicked  using various electric and acoustic guitars as well as banjo and resonator guitars.  I'm not a big advocate of drenching anything I play with effects as I only want to achieve a functionally accurate tone that sits well in a mix with other instruments and matches the feel of the genre I'm playing.  Based on that description of how and what I play there is no doubt in my mind I would never be as happy with the results of working with an HD500 as I am with the Helix.

 

The reason I say that last statement is based on the fact that I'm not trying to please myself when I dial in a preset, I'm trying to achieve a sound my audience will identify with based on their music listening experience whether on a recording or live.  In all of my years recording and playing live that's only become possible with my Helix as the core unit for processing my sound.

 

On 6/22/2023 at 12:07 AM, markwesse said:

Ive talked before about trying to port sounds between the 2 and of course they dont...not even close

BUT

Lately I have started just using some simple actual physical cabs and can now define why exactly I wrestle so much with the Helix which is of course superior in so many ways...

 

The diff is this: When you plug the HD500 into a physical cab and turn the cab emulation off; When you play, the dynamics are much more direct and the level of soft to loud playing is large...just as if you were playing into an actual amp

When you do the same with the Helix, with identical amp models etc and using only an amp...the sound is much more hifi but it just doesnt jump out anywhere near as much as the HD which is really gutsy...the relationship of tone>dynamics is small and compressed.

 

So if you just want really good tone (and fx arent the backbone of your sound); send through a physical cab that you like the sound of...the helix is no match and you will save yourself a lot of bucks

 

Before flaming me or speaking without knowing...try it first...Im happy to send the presets...even dial them in a bit closer.
I spoke quite a lot before on the diff between the HD/Helix model of the Fender Twin Vib channel model...this also makes it perfectly clear...the Helix is a step back in actual authenticity of tone in this type of application

 

Im using r88 ribbon to record and its chalk and cheese

 

Im writing this to help others who may be looking for information

 

Conversely I also play classical...in which the helix is much better if you keep a bunch of chips for the mic preamp as they fry by just looking at them. Ive been doing studio workd for 40 years and never had a fry of phantom power ever and that has been with interns hot plugging etc...do it once on the Helix and you will need a new chip.

Long live the HD500 for clean/crunch tones with guts!!

Most likely you have a different output level than you had on HD500.  You can choose from: mic/instrument/line.  See what your HD500 had and do the same.  Otherwise, as far as I know, the two units should work the same way, with the Helix sounding "better" because of oversampling.  But I don't own anything older than the Helix, so I can't confirm. 

[codamedia]

To each his own I guess... my experience was the complete opposite of the OP.

 

Maybe it's I/O settings, maybe it's the method of monitoring, maybe it's just preference. Dynamic range was never an issue with each modeler, and they both have "hit & misses" in terms of amp models. I just know I get way better tones from my Helix than I ever did from my HD500. 

 

 

[datacommando]

On 6/22/2023 at 5:07 AM, markwesse said:

Before flaming me or speaking without knowing...

 

Opinions are like belly buttons - everybody has one - and you appear to be quite happy with what the HD500 delivers for you - that's fine.

 

I started out using Line 6 gear right back with the old red kidney bean POD, moving along to POD XT Live, then the POD HD500 before the HELIX Floor and getting side tracked along the way by Boss GT stuff.

 

My HD 500 is right here gathering dust and when I first got my Helix back in 2015 I did patch it in simply to use the Dimension effect because at that time the Helix didn't have the Legacy effects available. For me there is no comparison - here I am today -a very happy Helix owner and it's a world away from the earlier stuff. - but it's whatever flips your switch.

 

Enjoy.

[rd2rk]

On 6/23/2023 at 9:36 AM, datacommando said:

Opinions are like belly buttons - everybody has one

 

I had a GF who didn't have one - just sayin'... :-)

[datacommando]

On 6/23/2023 at 5:14 PM, rd2rk said:

 

I had a GF who didn't have one - just sayin'... :-)

 

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Whoooooah, interesting, but many years back I married a woman who had one that stuck out.

Lots of different ones out there, I guess.

 

 

[rd2rk]

Yeah, she was either a custom job or a space alien, I was never really sure...

[theElevators]

On 6/23/2023 at 1:42 PM, rd2rk said:

Yeah, she was either a custom job or a space alien, I was never really sure...

Opinions are like a brain.... some have it.  LOL

[MJWiggins]

Or she was eve, my brother lived in a small town out in the sticks, at one town meeting an elder gentleman wanted a petition created for the Vatican to remove Adam's belly button from the painting in the Sistine chapel because, well Adam shouldn't have had one.

[rd2rk]

On 6/23/2023 at 12:00 PM, Phryrduk said:

Or she was eve, my brother lived in a small town out in the sticks, at one town meeting an elder gentleman wanted a petition created for the Vatican to remove Adam's belly button from the painting in the Sistine chapel because, well Adam shouldn't have had one.

 

 

… When I was back there in Seminary School
There was a person there
Who put forth the proposition
That you can petition the Lord with prayer

Petition the Lord with prayer?
You cannot petition the Lord with prayer!

 

                                  - Rt. Rev. Jim Morrison

[PierM]

Ok.

[datacommando]

On 6/23/2023 at 6:42 PM, rd2rk said:

Yeah, she was either a custom job or a space alien, I was never really sure...

 
If she was named “Rachael”, then she was definitely a Nexus 7.

[cruisinon2]

On 6/22/2023 at 7:22 AM, DunedinDragon said:

After getting my Helix over 15 years ago I got rid of my HD500 because I saw no need for it. 

 

Maybe I'm crazy, but I'd bet money that the Helix was first rolled out in 2015... ~8 years back, tops. I'm not even sure the HD500 existed 15 years ago, never mind Helix. Am I nuts?

[theElevators]

On 6/27/2023 at 2:10 PM, cruisinon2 said:

 

Maybe I'm crazy, but I'd bet money that the Helix was first rolled out in 2015... ~8 years back, tops. I'm not even sure the HD500 existed 15 years ago, never mind Helix. Am I nuts?

well, I guess he meant he got it in 2015... maybe he's French.. :)

[brue58ski]

On 6/24/2023 at 2:43 AM, datacommando said:

 
If she was named “Rachael”, then she was definitely a Nexus 7.

I thought Nexus 7's came with a belly button in order to enhance the illusion. Your talking about Nexus 6. don't know if there was a Nexus 6 version of Rachael.

[Paulzx]

On 6/22/2023 at 5:07 AM, markwesse said:

Long live the HD500 for clean/crunch tones with guts!!

 

I cannot agree with that. I had both HD500's and then the Helix floor, and the Helix, with some knowledge and tweaking, will go close

to most real world high gain tones, I should know, I'm the most fussy high gain player of all time. The HD500 was okay and yes it made

some noise, but it was never really totally convincing on the high gain, and that was the general perception of that device at the time.

 

Things took a quantum leap with the Helix, and the other current modelers. I think it may just be your perception of the sound you're hearing from

the 500 and perhaps not getting the best out of the Helix? Certainly I considered getting rid of my helix many times, but I steadily became much

better at dialling it in, to the point where only something really mega would see me changing - but I would never consider going back to a 500!

 

My Helix crunch tones have plenty of guts, but they're all different, some have no bass and really cut through, some have bass and a bit of thump,

my point is, it can do it all if you know how.

[markwesse]

Sorry been away for a while. in the end, i set up the hd500 with a cab in 1 part of the studio and dedicate 2 models on it for recording. Had a friend come over and play some sessions (he is a pro player and has had countless real rigs since 80s everything from crunch to high gain) and he was in total agreement...something special about it...he thinks the Helix is good but feels a lot different side by side. I had one of the first PODS in Australia...so we are all in good company...actually still have most of my boards in the family as hand me downs. My friend is the same except for he has a lot of others eg 11 rack through to all the expensive stuff...still rehearses with a Laney/Quad...his fav...my ears cant deal with that...the chest rumble makes the ears ring lol

 

So it doesnt really matter but some funny replies. "Let me tell you about my mother..."

BTW Adam would have had a belly button because he was the prototype so the DNA should have been a full suite right? As well as being middle brown with brown hair and brown eyes so all the DNA info was there...good ole devolution :-)

 

Setting the Helix up with a different looper though...pitb

 

Now what would be cool would be a 'DIY Looper' where you can choose not 6 switch or 1 switch etc but a blank looper block that lets you use ALL of the switches of a 6 switch looper page

 

Why?

 

I tie it all up into Ableton. We do mostly impro acoustic/elec gigs and when eg I grab a nylon string, I have each of the loop tracks in stereo and pan across from L > R so each take sits in a different space. If you dont do this, it quickly gets messy with frequency stacking...would be a nice added...guess I should go put in a feature request..as well as being able to use the exp3 input switchable from trs to tr so you can use a quiet switch for main looping

 

And while they are at it...Send/Return should include USB channels to make things a bit easier :-)

 

 

 

[theElevators]

A friend of mine is a keyboard player.  He is a longtime user of the Kurzweil workstations.  His was bought in 2008.  He told me he went to try the new ones a few years ago, and they sounded sterile, compared to the "warm" sound of his old one. 

 

That brings me to my point of "warmth" actually being low definition and muddiness.  There are countless live records from the late 60's / early 70's that sound great, huge, beefy!  And in 2020s we have all this HD equipment, and it sounds so surgical, too many details, just lifeless.  Could be one of those. 

 

As for the Helix... I don't know how people survived with the Pod HD 500 back in the day without snapshots.  I would have to rethink my entire approach to switching sounds in some of my songs with doing pedalboard assignment... If not for the sounds, the routing and the switching on the Helix are so much more advanced. 

[brue58ski]

I have an HD500. I got a Helix. Haven't touched the HD500 since. I find the simulations in the Helix better sounding and easier to dial in with a rare exception or two. Now with the new cabs...anyone want an HD500?

[markwesse]

On 8/27/2023 at 10:59 PM, theElevators said:

A friend of mine is a keyboard player.  He is a longtime user of the Kurzweil workstations.  His was bought in 2008.  He told me he went to try the new ones a few years ago, and they sounded sterile, compared to the "warm" sound of his old one. 

 

That brings me to my point of "warmth" actually being low definition and muddiness.  There are countless live records from the late 60's / early 70's that sound great, huge, beefy!  And in 2020s we have all this HD equipment, and it sounds so surgical, too many details, just lifeless.  Could be one of those. 

 

As for the Helix... I don't know how people survived with the Pod HD 500 back in the day without snapshots.  I would have to rethink my entire approach to switching sounds in some of my songs with doing pedalboard assignment... If not for the sounds, the routing and the switching on the Helix are so much more advanced. 

Yeah snapshots are a biggy for sure...but such a downer that they couldnt put some midi beef into the footswitches ie like the Morningstar MC8...now THAT is how you do midi foot pedalling. I have spent near 20 years doing UI/UX and the last 5 doing oem...gesturing is the bomb...Helix gives a tease with snapshots ie press and long press so you can switch 2 snapshots from 1 pedal...but...a loooong way from just basic gesturing. As far as ux goes for midi...current helix implementation is like...hmmm...minimal

 

Still cant find a delay model to emulate even remotely close ibanez dm1000...such a good unit...and I ended up patching my TS808 I got for my 17th birthday (original first year issue)...the screamer sounds nothing like it...dead and smeary but thankfully the FX loop is good.

 

Meh...HD500...I must have something diff. The Helix is miles ahead on so many things...hmm not those tones mention in op...imvho...I wouldnt use it live again but there is something missing on the helix...or maybe the opposite and its adding something but either way...each to their own.

 

RE Helix midi feature suggestions; I cant log into ideascale...some issue that the facebook login is broken and thats my creds...ah well.

 

Id love to hear some renditions of the amps I mentioned above, done on your rigs...for comparison...happy to put mine up too

 

[cunezstun]

I started out using Line 6 gear right back with the old red kidney bean POD, moving along to POD XT Live, then the POD HD500 before the HELIX Floor and getting side tracked along the way by Boss GT stuff. 

krnl download
hdstreamz.uno
 

[datacommando]

On 8/29/2023 at 10:55 AM, markwesse said:

Still cant find a delay model to emulate even remotely close ibanez dm1000...such a good unit...

 

Hi,

 

I still have my old (bought new in 1983) Ibanez DM1000 gathering dust in the rack over in the corner, and whenever I feel the need for some grit in the delays, it's available to patch it in on the Helix FX loop.

 

Having said that, there is no real need, because with the Helix Vintage Digital set on 8 Bits and 8kHz, Headroom rolled off to -12db, then mess with the Rate and Depth for some 80s warbling should get you close to a 40 year old piece of gear. Oh, yeah, I also had the Ibanez HD1000 Harmonics Delay some where back in the mist of time.

 

Yep, early digital delay units - some people swear by them, while other folks swear at them.

 

Technology has come a long way since then.

 

 

[markwesse]

On 8/29/2023 at 11:12 PM, datacommando said:

 

Hi,

 

I still have my old (bought new in 1983) Ibanez DM1000 gathering dust in the rack over in the corner, and whenever I feel the need for some grit in the delays, it's available to patch it in on the Helix FX loop.

 

Having said that, there is no real need, because with the Helix Vintage Digital set on 8 Bits and 8kHz, Headroom rolled off to -12db, then mess with the Rate and Depth for some 80s warbling should get you close to a 40 year old piece of gear. Oh, yeah, I also had the Ibanez HD1000 Harmonics Delay some where back in the mist of time.

 

Yep, early digital delay units - some people swear by them, while other folks swear at them.

 

Technology has come a long way since then.

 

 

Funny stuff @datacommando

I didnt have money but I bought that new (at the time)...simply ate potatoes for a couple of months hehe

The vintage digital is actually ok...I copied the chip specs ie 12k, 8 bit (I thought...hang on thats the dsp128?) and went side by side...hmm...just missing something (and I generally do blind AB with wife switching...sorry Fi :-). This crazy german guy did a brilliant vst emu of it...and it was very close...if I could use plugs in the Helix...would be amazing

Its not actually grit...it hides the tails enough to make it much more 3d...just much more dimensional to play (ie old lofi vs hifi) and add that mauve ibanez stereo chorus to 2 cab split...was downright amazing

 

I dont think of it as; technology has come a long way...more like new options but it still needs to become a part of your sound no matter what the gear and that takes serious time

 

I bought heaps of diff preamps...the liquid channel was 1...could have bought a nice Avalon AND DI for the money...was amazing new tech at the time...still has some gems...but the OLD tech like sebatron valve pres...so old school but wow...the sound. 
 

I really believe the diff is...back in the day you would only buy 1 piece of gear and spend a lot of time with it... and get so much value by drilling into the detail...now there are a zillion options and you spend more time surfing presets than twisting knobs and listening. The tactility and tactile response was a bit part too imvho

 

cheers

[datacommando]

On 8/29/2023 at 11:20 PM, markwesse said:

I really believe the diff is...back in the day you would only buy 1 piece of gear and spend a lot of time with it... and get so much value by drilling into the detail...now there are a zillion options and you spend more time surfing presets than twisting knobs and listening.

Yeah, living on soup to buy gear was normal in those days, in fact I bought quite a bit of stuff in self build kit form and spent my evenings soldering components on the kitchen table, but it all worked as it should. One of the DIY systems was named Tanrak by Tantek, which was a Eurorack system, and mine comprised of a pair of noise gates, 2 compressors, Parametric EQ and an Exciter module. All good fun.

 

Also, still in the old rack, along with the DM1000, is an extremely rare Nomad Axxeman from around 1987. At the time this thing was the mutts nuts, for getting guitars recorded quickly to tape for demos. It was my main workhorse for a very long time. A Rockman rival, and possibly one of the best chorus fx.

 

Here’s a video of a guy from your hemisphere giving it a run through. Lots of knobs, buttons and LEDs - no menus.

 

 

;-)

 

[markwesse]

What are thoughts about having snapshot 'scope' parameters?

eg atm a snapshot affects every parameter assigned to ANY snapshot

It would be a good workaround to be able to set parameters to either 'snapshot(All)' or a particular snapshot eg Snapshot(3)

 

This is aside from the ultimate of multi state buttons 

eg I dedicate Delay to FS3 for everything...but I have setup up command centre to have a press = Snapshot3 and hold = Snapshot4. A quick press simulates the most accessed 'settings' and the hold simulates the idea of 'more' so this snapshot has more feedback/mix etc

Ultimately I would like my 'Delay' FS to be able to command a bit more flexibly

1 quick press = default (SS1)

1 hold, cycle to next deeper level

1 hold again, cycle to deepest level

Double click to bypass

 

I have banged on about how important gesturing is in regards to simplifying and muscle memory but wondering, as you seemed like pretty seasoned guys, what your thoughts were?

 

[markwesse]

On 8/30/2023 at 9:41 AM, datacommando said:

Yeah, living on soup to buy gear was normal in those days, in fact I bought quite a bit of stuff in self build kit form and spent my evenings soldering components on the kitchen table, but it all worked as it should. One of the DIY systems was named Tanrak by Tantek, which was a Eurorack system, and mine comprised of a pair of noise gates, 2 compressors, Parametric EQ and an Exciter module. All good fun.

 

Also, still in the old rack, along with the DM1000, is an extremely rare Nomad Axxeman from around 1987. At the time this thing was the mutts nuts, for getting guitars recorded to tape for demos quickly. It was my main workhorse for a very long time. A Rockman rival, and possibly one of the best chorus fx.

 

Here’s a video of a guy from your hemisphere giving it a run through. Lots of knobs, buttons and LEDs

 

 

;-)

 

Interesting...:-) chorus is good...overdrive...hmm very 80s hehe

so struggle with mono...

[markwesse]

So Ive gone back to recording using the HD500...while the helix is in the shop getting all the issues fixed...

 

Um...so I had asked if anyone could send some links etc of their favourite sounds/bits that make the helix sound so much better eg

Fender twin

Vox ac30

 

etc

 

But...cant seen anything??? (well hear anything)

 

Please share some examples so I can compare...please...would love to hear what you guys do

 

[Smashcraaft]

YouTube is full of comparison vids between HD and Helix. Go and find some and the conclusion, that most of the people comparing those devices prefer the Helix. 

For myself I had problems recreating my HD tones with the HX until the moment when I realized that it's not practically to try to recreate a more compressed and digital sounding tone. From that moment I tried to build my preferred tones from scratch and only looked back to compare the "direction" of the tones. 

 

After 6 month I am not totally there because I had optimized my HD tones over years, to fit them into the construct of our band-sound. But I am absolutely sure, I will get my HX tones better in comparison within the next 6 month!

[cruisinon2]

On 9/18/2023 at 4:35 AM, markwesse said:

So Ive gone back to recording using the HD500...while the helix is in the shop getting all the issues fixed...

 

Um...so I had asked if anyone could send some links etc of their favourite sounds/bits that make the helix sound so much better eg

Fender twin

Vox ac30

 

etc

 

But...cant seen anything??? (well hear anything)

 

Please share some examples so I can compare...please...would love to hear what you guys do

 

 

Listen to Here Goes Nuthin' by cruisinon2 on #SoundCloud
https://on.soundcloud.com/uJqJT

 

Listen to This Really Needs A Title by cruisinon2 on #SoundCloud
https://on.soundcloud.com/VoDRD

 

These are several years old at this point, so I'd be lying if I said that I remembered which patches I used for these tracks... but it's all Helix. It's a safe bet that there's no Vox models, though... I'm not a fan. Any clean stuff in there is probably one of the Fender models, but with God knows what 3rd party IR's. I wasn't using much of the Helix cabs at the time.

[markwesse]

On 10/3/2023 at 4:00 AM, cruisinon2 said:

 

Listen to Here Goes Nuthin' by cruisinon2 on #SoundCloud
https://on.soundcloud.com/uJqJT

 

Listen to This Really Needs A Title by cruisinon2 on #SoundCloud
https://on.soundcloud.com/VoDRD

 

These are several years old at this point, so I'd be lying if I said that I remembered which patches I used for these tracks... but it's all Helix. It's a safe bet that there's no Vox models, though... I'm not a fan. Any clean stuff in there is probably one of the Fender models, but with God knows what 3rd party IR's. I wasn't using much of the Helix cabs at the time.

Been away for a while

Really nice playing! Congrats

The clean tones are a bit crowded to really hear them as a solo instrument (I dont mean playing solo of course) but they def have that hifi tone. The 2nd track actually sounds like the princeton...very much like JNC preset tbh...which is super nice.

 

Thanks for taking the time to share.

The context Im thinking is more like a vocal + guitar only...where the guitar is carrying everything

 

Cheers