rd2rk

Some sort of level meters, at least in HX Edit, would definitely be helpful. But as DI has pointed out, ultimately, our ears have to be the final judge. Just last night I was attempting to level a preset using a clean amp and 3 dist/OD effects of progressively more aggressive character. I was using a db meter and, when clean was even with od1,od2 and od3 on the meter, it was apparent that the levels my ears perceived were not the same as the db meter was showing. When the levels finally SOUNDED even, I wound up with a 6db difference on the meter between the clean sound and od3. How could there be that big a difference between what my ears hear and what a db meter placed at roughly the same position as my ears relative to the speaker picks up? And yet, there it was. I don't know if an electronic/digital totally ITB representation would be different, but I doubt it. If anything, I think it would be worse. Again, meters would be helpful to set ballpark /relative levels,, but our ears have to make the final determination.

I was just pointing out that in this case, Reaper was actually reporting accurate numbers. I've read that it has something to do with the way the drivers work. Since I see the same numbers from Ableton and Cakewalk, I'm guessing that Focusrite's drivers are getting it right. You know, I've seen your posts on a number of other forums. You're usually a well informed and positive contributor. I'd like to think that we can disagree about something on one thread, without animosity bleeding over into other threads. We ARE going to bump heads from time to time, and we WILL agree on some things. When I'm wrong about an objectively provable subject, I admit it. I've done it often enough right here on this forum to know that I don't know it all. It would be nice if everyone on ALL forums could do the same, but we know that ain't gonna happen. All we can do is try our best.

And what you're never going to admit is that it doesn't matter whether or not YOU think it changes anything. That's your OPINION, and when it comes to legalities, your opinion is absolutely irrelevant. Even your opinion that it's not an issue (despite the double negative.....), is irrelevant. The only thing about this discussion that IS relevant is that it's all irrelevant, which we've now both agreed on, so again I'll suggest that we drop it, since we're in agreement that it's irrelevant. OK? Olive branch proffered. Accept? Trust me, I'm as stubborn as you!

Oh, yeah, I'm sure they're going to risk their IP to leverage <>3% of the PC user base. Uh-huh. The rest of your post is the same sort of mis-direction that you accuse cruisinon2 of. The reason so few people use Linux is not JUST that modern PC users don't know, and don't WANT to know, what to do with a command line. It's that there are so few applications that work across all distros without the NEED for command line intervention. And the reason for THAT is that THERE'S NO MONEY IN OPEN SOURCE DEVELOPMENT! Sure, there's a few success stories. But Linux is still a geek's hobby horse. Until they fix that and settle on some standards, it always will be. The ultimate irony would be if Microsoft's current interest in Linux leads to the solution.......

I DO understand. What YOU don't want to acknowledge is that neither of us make the legal decisions for the IR providers. If THEY decide it's an issue, then it IS an issue! If NI has figured this out, GREAT! I hope L6 has a contact there. Then again, NI is bound by the laws and legal precedents of Germany, not the U.S. You are absolutely correct that this is a pointless and annoying discussion. Why don't we both agree to end it here? PEACE!

And I also said that I ASKED him specifically for those numbers! FWIW - It's been a couple of years and a couple of driver updates since I last did the physical test on my 18i20, so I did it again just now. At 48k/64, I got the results shown in the screenshot below: Close enough for Rock'n'Roll!

And without a law degree AND a prior Supreme Court Ruling, you can't say for sure that it's a non-issue! For not wanting to discuss the legal issues any further, you sure are adamant about making unfounded claims about the legalities involved!

DUDE! TWICE I've said that I DID test it physically, and the difference between those results and the reported latency was infinitesimal - <.25ms! What's the difference between your UAC's physical numbers and your DAW's (please specify) reported numbers?

We're with ya on that! As for the legal implications, always a tedious and depressing subject. But keep in mind that MacDonald's paid millions to some Darwin Award Candidate because he spilled hot coffee on himself while breaking the law drinking it while driving!

The study was clear about the differences between IEMs (headphones would be same I guess) and speakers. Again, I'm not doubting that YOU can tell, just saying that for most people it's a non-issue. I DID point out that I DID measure physically, and the difference was tiny. The Focusrite employee, never said he trusted the reported latency, nor did he offer it as proof. I ASKED him about REPORTED latencies because MOST people DO NOT test physically, they look at the reported latency. Given the tiny difference between the two methods, it's close enough for Rock'n'Roll. Again, much ado about nothing.

You're a lawyer? :-) If NI is doing it with Kontakt, maybe encryption would work, but wouldn't the IR providers need to include some kind of tag in the IR so that Helix would know that there was a licensing issue? Also, Kontakt runs on full blown computers. There could be a resources issue. I misunderstood. Thought you wanted Helix to do the housekeeping automatically.

Using my Strat's bridge pickup and a high gain amp or distortion pedal, I get the expected single-coil noise. I apply the Input Block's noise gate, noise be gone. Maybe something else going on here?

ABSOLUTELY! A potential IR licensing issue. I'd rather that L6 put it's resources into SOUND development, rather than paying lawyers. Helix is a MUSIC computer. Incorporating Artificial Intelligence to make my storage decisions for me sounds like a BAD idea.

Yada yada. I know all that, I've done it that way in the past, it's not that big a difference (gen2 = 7.75-7.78ms). Of course, if you can feel the difference between 7.6ms and 4.5ms, NEAR ZERO LATENCY is worth an extra 2 or 3 grand, I get it. Bottom line. Since it doesn't bother me at 7.6ms, it's going to be that much less of a bother at 4.5ms. Since you seem to be very technically oriented (me not so much), here's a link to a latency study done by the AES (Audio Engineering Society) using real musicians and real instruments. http://jd-xlabs.com/AES_Latency.pdf Conclusions: How much latency can be present in a signal path before a musician will perceive an artifact in the audio signal? This is highly dependent on instrument type. Please see Fig. 36 for a worst case estimate and follow the lines for the Good Rating. If we ignore the inconsistent saxophone data, latency values greater than 6.5ms for wedges and greater than 1ms for IEM would likely produce slight artifacts for some instruments. How much latency can be present in a signal path before a musician will perceive an actual delay in the signal? This is highly dependent on instrument type. Please see Fig. 36 for a worst case estimate and follow the lines for the Fair Rating. If we ignore the inconsistent saxophone data, latency values greater than 16ms for wedges and greater than 6.5ms for IEM would likely produce some audible delay for some instruments. 6.4 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My takeaway - Listening through the air (not IEMs), under 10ms ya gotta be REAL sensitive to hear latency, and SUPER sensitive to hear it with drums or keyboards. Since drums and keyboards are the only instruments I play using VSTs, I'm in no rush to go out and upgrade to gen 3, much less spend 2-4 grand on an Antelope. I'm not saying you don't hear what you think you hear. It's obvious from the study that people vary radically in their sensitivity to latency. What I am saying is that, for most people, and guitarists in particular (12ms threshold), 4-5ms is "much ado about nothing".

Update from Focusrite: Charlie Moon (Focusrite ) 31 Oct, 00:59 GMT Hi Ed, Testing in Reaper today I got the following results: Scarlett 3rd generation DAW: Reaper Buffer size: 64 Sample Rate: 48kHz Latency result: 4.5ms RTL If you have any further questions or concerns please feel welcome to let me know. Best regards, Charlie Moon // Technical Support Focusrite Novation Inc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So, right up there with others at it's price point. Since the current 7.6ms RTL doesn't bother me, by the time I can afford (or I NEED) to upgrade, it'll be gen 4..... What happens when $600 AIs match the "near zero" latency of the $3500 models? "Our preamps can record the sound of an Angel's breath in all it's GLORIOUS purity!". HALLELUJAH! Can't wait!

You want to pay the lawyers to work that out? You make lots of assumptions about what are essentially programming issues, and since I doubt you have any knowledge of the source code, you're basically making wild guesses about what might be possible or what it would cost to implement.

Would also raise copyright issues, as licensed IRs could then be distributed at will. Not that bent users can't do that now, but it takes an act of will, whereas Customtone would be full of presets with protected IRs. People wouldn't even think about it.

MIDI THRU = OFF MIDI OVER USB = ON MIDI PC SEND/RECEIVE/DUPLICATE PC SEND = works either way

So many ways to skin this cat......

Combining the dual cab block with same cabs and two different mics, and the distances. I'd never really messed with dual cabs much, and though I'd used either ribbon OR dynamic, I'd never combined them quite that way. It didn't solve the raspy part of what I perceive to be the tweeter issue though, just cured the FIZZ. I need to spend some more time comparing different amps (some do it more than others) with the Rokits vs the FRFR112. Lately I've been using the Tweaker15, with the FRFR112 at a lower level just to make the overall sound "bigger", since I play at pretty low volumes in my apartment. Could just be a "you get what you pay for" issue with the FRFR112, since I never really seem to notice it (the raspy sound) using just the Rokits. It'd probably be easier if I played out at higher volume, but when I play with other people I play bass - I suck (relative to the people I play with) on guitar! The FRFR112 is great for bass though.

He wants to just jump between acoustic and electric without cable swapping. That means acoustic into the Fishman Input, Electric into Helix input. He could work that with an A/B box for the guitars, but that adds another gadget, six cables instead of four.

For all the time I've had this thing I've been fighting fizz. You'd think I'd have figured this out. You should save this to a little text file and every time someone uses the word FIZZ copy/paste this to a reply. Better yet, make it a sticky. Oh, that's right, nobody reads those. I applied it to a particularly fizzy preset that I'd been using a single cab on with 8k/80 Hi-Lo cuts, and LO AND BEHOLD! FIZZ BE GONE! BRILLIANT! Thank you!

Having re-read your OP, your idea is better. I just tried it with my amp. I've attached two sample presets to demo how I set it up. The acoustic preset has the Input Block set to MIC (unused, Variax would also work) to prevent any possible noise from the electric bleeding in. Since you're not plugging anything into the XLR or 1/4" Outputs there's no need to do anything to the Output Blocks. AcoustaFish.hlx Electrafish.hlx

Even simpler: Acoustic guitar --> Fishman amp input Fishman amp FX out --> Helix Input Helix Output --> Fishman FX return In Global Settings set Helix I/O to the level required by Fishman send/return (probably Instrument), No FX block required, Helix return level adjustable with Helix Volume knob.

Which is what studio engineers get paid the big bucks to know. 5 minutes on any modeling forum is enough to know that a large percentage of IR users haven't a clue. Redwirez respects their users by providing, along with the absolute widest selection of mics and mic positions, a lot of detailed info about that area of recording science - a virtual decoder ring. But who buys Redwirez IRs anymore? "That stuff is too complicated, it gives me a headache. Just tell me what sounds good!". Or (tongue in cheek) the common forum question "What's the best IR (or bass or amp or strings or) for metal?"