Can the Helix intelligent pitch shifting do the Thin Lizzy Harmonies?

[byronnemeth]

Hello Line 6 Friends!

 

Looking to get the Helix floor unit.

 

I'm working as a single guitarist in a 4 piece band doing Thin Lizzy's (Boy's Are Back In Town) and I would like to know if the Helix intelligent pitch shifting is able to correctly play the harmonies as shift they from 3rd's to 4ths in real time as they appear on the original song?

 

Alot of other manufacture units claim that they can do "Harmonies" but when you put them to the Thin Lizzy test in a Live Stage application with the band they fail miserably.

 

I know the Helix has the (Twin Harmony and Harmony Delay) but can these patches really play the Thin Lizzy's harmonies?

 

Here are the intervals as a reference:

 

Please let me know.

 

Cheers  :)

 

Byron Nemeth

www.byronnemeth.guitars

[cruisinon2]

I know nothing about the Helix, so perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm not sure how any device would be able "know" when to switch from one harmony to another. Seems to me that you would have to be in control of that one way or another. What you could do (with the 500X anyway), is have 2 pitch shifters in the chain...one set for 3rds and the other for 4ths, and use a foot switch to toggle between them.

[Jose7822]

Im sure you could easily do this in Helix with a button set to change the intervals parameter (OFF = 3rds; ON = 4ths).

[jandrio]

... What you could do (with the 500X anyway), is have 2 pitch shifters in the chain...one set for 3rds and the other for 4ths, and use a foot switch to toggle between them.

 

 alternatively on the hd500 u can dynamically change the intervals of the smart harmony with the exp1/2...

[Leftzilla]

I think that Jandrio has the solution, use the expression pedal to change the intervals

[Rewolf48]

As Jose said: on the Helix you can do it with a button, which can be momentary (i.e. 4th only while the button is pressed)

[josephyballew]

Hello Line 6 Friends!

 

Looking to get the Helix floor unit.

 

I'm working as a single guitarist in a 4 piece band doing Thin Lizzy's (Boy's Are Back In Town) and I would like to know if the Helix intelligent pitch shifting is able to correctly play the harmonies as shift they from 3rd's to 4ths in real time as they appear on the original song?

 

Alot of other manufacture units claim that they can do "Harmonies" but when you put them to the Thin Lizzy test in a Live Stage application with the band they fail miserably.

 

I know the Helix has the (Twin Harmony and Harmony Delay) but can these patches really play the Thin Lizzy's harmonies?

 

Here are the intervals as a reference:

 

Please let me know.

 

Cheers  :)

 

Byron Nemeth

www.byronnemeth.guitars

The Helix states that it will do one harmony with model of Eventide H3000. I had this unit. There are two ways to do this. One is intervals like Jose said and the other and best way when it works is to program user scale and program all 12 notes. As long as the harmony you are playing does not repeat the same note with a different interval, this is the best way. No one wants to push a button in the middle of a solo to change a note unless absolutely necessary.  User scales is not actually using a scale, but just selecting the key, then user assigning each 12 notes of the harmony. I have found this works for most harmonies. My band plays Mademoiselle by Styx. It does change keys and scales in the middle of the solo. You have to do what works best. 

[byronnemeth]

@josephyballew:

 

Thank you Joseph!

Agreed — To program user scale and program all 12 notes is the best idea.

Question please: do you work for Line 6? reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to confirm that the Helix Floor Pedal unit will do this "one harmony with model of Eventide H3000" idea.

 

It's REALLY critical that I find this out, it will determine if I purchase one or not, do you know what the Patch number in the Helix that does this will be???

And do we have a manual PDF for the Helix yet???

 

Ty!!!

 

Byron Nemeth

www.byronnemeth.com 

[agbiggs]

I have the HD500 and I believe the pitch shifter in the Helix will be similar/identical to that. I don't think you could do a user-assigned scale in the HD500's pitch shifter, but maybe someone else has tried it.

[byronnemeth]

Thanks for the tip (agbiggs).

 

Can anyone else out there confirm the (user-assigned scale) set up with the new Helix floor unit so as to properly do 

Thin Lizzy's (Boy's Are Back In Town) ?????

 

Byron Nemeth

www.byronnemeth.guitars

[mdmayfield]

Thanks for the tip (agbiggs).

 

Can anyone else out there confirm the (user-assigned scale) set up with the new Helix floor unit so as to properly do 

Thin Lizzy's (Boy's Are Back In Town) ?????

 

Byron Nemeth

www.byronnemeth.guitars

 

There are many reasons to buy or not buy a Helix, but if your entire purchase decision hinges on the harmony for this one song, I seriously wouldn't count on it. I find it extremely unlikely that they put in a whole section for choosing a harmony note for each chromatic tone.

 

If I were you, at best I would figure on having to use the switch or pedal workaround to change the interval between a 3rd and a 4th.

[byronnemeth]

Thanks (@mdmayfield).

 

Switch or pedal workaround won't work at all as an idea, need fluid integration with a defined user scale that can be programmed.

 

Is there anyone out there that works at Line 6 that can please chime in on this ????

 

Thanks everyone.

 

Byron Nemeth

[CipherHost]

Is there anyone out there that works at Line 6 that can please chime in on this ????

 

My guess is that if the Helix could do what you ask, someone from Line6 would have said so by now. Personally, I think being able to program your own scale is a pretty cool idea. It also seems consistent with how Line6 models equipment as accurately as they can so you can use it however you wish. You can check ideascale to see if someone else has made this request and vote for it or post the idea yourself. 

[guitarno]

    I believe your looking for intelligent harmony (keeping harmony note in a particular scale). If that's what you mean, Roland VG units do this pretty effectively. I have a GP-10 that will do this. I don't play Thin Lizzie tunes and haven't tried it on that song, but I'm thinking it would work that way. The VG units rely on hex pickup processing to do a lot of the synth processing polyphonicly. I'm not sure if a hex pickup is required to get intelligent harmonies or not. I'll have to try that lick on my GP-10 & see if it works for that.

 

Yeah, I just listened to that clip again. I'm pretty sure that the GP-10 will do this no sweat. The helix ought to be able to do this as well if it has a good usable harmony effect. On the GP-10 you just specify (in advance - written into the patch) what scale your playing in (G Minor, F Major, etc...), and when you play any note, it will automatically switch the interval for you to force it to stay in that scale. I'm just not sure if you really need a hex pickup to do this or not. If you are using a Variax, you've got that, but not on a regular guitar.

 

See this related post to show how to do this with a JTV / HD500:

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/11487-how-2-approximate-hotel-california-harmony-with-ur-jtvhd500/?hl=hotel+california

[eenymason]

Thanks (@mdmayfield).

 

Switch or pedal workaround won't work at all as an idea, need fluid integration with a defined user scale that can be programmed.

 

Is there anyone out there that works at Line 6 that can please chime in on this ????

 

Thanks everyone.

 

Byron Nemeth

If it's simply alternating between intervals, the expression pedal option is not too hard - FFS - you've learned the individual parts of the solo to Boys Are Back In Town haven't you? You've done the hard part - rock the damn pedal - toe/heel/toe/heel.

Don't expect a direct reply here from Line 6 staff - although having said that, you never know, you could be pleasantly surprised!

[byronnemeth]

    I believe your looking for intelligent harmony (keeping harmony note in a particular scale). If that's what you mean, Roland VG units do this pretty effectively. I have a GP-10 that will do this. I don't play Thin Lizzie tunes and haven't tried it on that song, but I'm thinking it would work that way. The VG units rely on hex pickup processing to do a lot of the synth processing polyphonicly. I'm not sure if a hex pickup is required to get intelligent harmonies or not. I'll have to try that lick on my GP-10 & see if it works for that.

 

Yeah, I just listened to that clip again. I'm pretty sure that the GP-10 will do this no sweat. The helix ought to be able to do this as well if it has a good usable harmony effect. On the GP-10 you just specify (in advance - written into the patch) what scale your playing in (G Minor, F Major, etc...), and when you play any note, it will automatically switch the interval for you to force it to stay in that scale. I'm just not sure if you really need a hex pickup to do this or not. If you are using a Variax, you've got that, but not on a regular guitar.

 

See this related post to show how to do this with a JTV / HD500:

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/11487-how-2-approximate-hotel-california-harmony-with-ur-jtvhd500/?hl=hotel+california

 

 

Thank you (Guitarno).

 

My hope was to see if the Helix can do as you describe. Not really intrested in the Roland.

 

Is there no Line 6 people on this Forum that can chime in with a solid answer on this topic for the Helix ??????

 

Ty!

 

Byron Nemeth

[eenymason]

Thank you (Guitarno).

 

My hope was to see if the Helix can do as you describe. Not really intrested in the Roland.

 

Is there no Line 6 people on this Forum that can chime in with a solid answer on this topic for the Helix ??????

 

Ty!

 

Byron Nemeth

A SOLID read through and you will find what you need to know....

Phil M says "Twin Harmony and Harmony Delay both have intelligent pitch shifting."

 

Refer to my (and previous comments by others) that there will be the facility create the effect you want with this unit.

It will however require you to take one foot from the foldback wedge mid solo, and place it on the expression pedal - heel, toe, heel, toe......(toe down being 3rd interval, heel down being 4th, or however you program it).

I currently use this very technique in a pretty corny Rod Stewart song called Tonight's The Night (although using HD500).

Apparently chicks dig it. :rolleyes:

Otherwise, being that every other man and his dog play guitar these days,  I'm sure there will be plenty of guitarists willing to jump up on stage with you just to play the second part. :lol:

[guitarno]

A SOLID read through and you will find what you need to know....

Phil M says "Twin Harmony and Harmony Delay both have intelligent pitch shifting."

 

Refer to my (and previous comments by others) that there will be the facility create the effect you want with this unit.

It will however require you to take one foot from the foldback wedge mid solo, and place it on the expression pedal - heel, toe, heel, toe......(toe down being 3rd interval, heel down being 4th, or however you program it).

I currently use this very technique in a pretty corny Rod Stewart song called Tonight's The Night (although using HD500).

Apparently chicks dig it. :rolleyes:

Otherwise, being that every other man and his dog play guitar these days,  I'm sure there will be plenty of guitarists willing to jump up on stage with you just to play the second part. :lol:

 

    Having to use a switch to change between intervals isn't really "Intelligent" harmony. That's "static" (dumb) harmony and no intelligence included. The term "Intelligent" implys that it knows to switch intervals to stay in the harmony within the chosen scale when you change input notes. The GP-10 is a much cheaper device, and although no one from line 6 has directly answered this question, I would be stunned if the Helix couldn't do true "Intelligent" harmony as well as or better than the GP-10 and similar effect devices.

[mdmayfield]

    Having to use a switch to change between intervals isn't really "Intelligent" harmony. That's "static" (dumb) harmony and no intelligence included. The term "Intelligent" implys that it knows to switch intervals to stay in the harmony within the chosen scale when you change input notes. The GP-10 is a much cheaper device, and although no one from line 6 has directly answered this question, I would be stunned if the Helix couldn't do true "Intelligent" harmony as well as or better than the GP-10 and similar effect devices.

 

 

A "dumb" harmonizer will just set a number of half-steps - so if you use 4 half-steps, for example, you can play an A note and have a C# note harmony which will sound good in the key of A major, but if you play a B note it'll play a D#, which will sound wrong in the key of A major.

 

The "intelligent" harmony in the HD500 (and I believe is safe to assume will be similar in the Helix) relates to adjusting the interval you set to fit a diatonic scale. For example, an intelligent harmonizer set to "3rd above, A major" will play a C# along with your A note (a major 3rd, 4 half-steps), but will play a D along with your B note (a minor 3rd, 3 half-steps). That fits the A Major scale correctly.

 

What you're asking for is above and beyond a basic intelligent harmonizer; you need the ability to not just shift major/minor of the same interval, but to actually customize the entire scale with a different interval on each note. That's not commonly found outside of a dedicated harmony processor.

 

This is needed for the parts on that song because some intervals are minor 3rds, some are major 3rds, and some are perfect 4ths.

 

Edit - When the lower part plays an A, the higher part plays a C# (major 3rd). When the lower part plays a C#, the higher part plays an E (minor 3rd). This is "intelligent" and handled automatically. BUT when the lower part is playing an E, the higher part needs to play an A (a perfect 4th). The intelligent harmony is set to "3rd above" so it'll intelligently play a G#, which fits the A major scale, but that isn't the part that was written for the song. That's why you would need the pedal, to switch from "intelligent major/minor 3rd" harmony to "4th harmony" during those notes.

[mdmayfield]

From what I'm hearing on that video, if you're playing it in the key of concert A natural, not tuned down like the original, you'd need a harmony system like this:

 

A -> C#   - major 3rd

B -> D   - minor 3rd

C# -> E  - minor 3rd

D -> F#  - major 3rd

E -> A  - perfect 4th

F# -> B  - perfect 4th

G# -> ? (I don't think this note is used in that part)

[eenymason]

    Having to use a switch to change between intervals isn't really "Intelligent" harmony. That's "static" (dumb) harmony and no intelligence included. The term "Intelligent" implys that it knows to switch intervals to stay in the harmony within the chosen scale when you change input notes. The GP-10 is a much cheaper device, and although no one from line 6 has directly answered this question, I would be stunned if the Helix couldn't do true "Intelligent" harmony as well as or better than the GP-10 and similar effect devices.

You let me know when you've invented that pedal that "knows" when you're changing interval, and I'll order one direct. Meantime, I'll continue to use a system that works for me, even if I have to inform it when I'm changing interval.

[phil_m]

You let me know when you've invented that pedal that "knows" when you're changing interval, and I'll order one direct. Meantime, I'll continue to use a system that works for me, even if I have to inform it when I'm changing interval.

Well, he is correct that the GT-10 harmonizer will do what he wants. It allows for customizable user-defined scales where you can select the interval for each note. The Helix harmonizer doesn't currently have this feature.

[guitarno]

You let me know when you've invented that pedal that "knows" when you're changing interval, and I'll order one direct. Meantime, I'll continue to use a system that works for me, even if I have to inform it when I'm changing interval.

 

Well, he is correct that the GT-10 harmonizer will do what he wants. It allows for customizable user-defined scales where you can select the interval for each note. The Helix harmonizer doesn't currently have this feature.

 

^^^ What he said! ^^^

 

The Boss GP-10 - You can order one Direct now!  :lol:  Actually, you should go over to "VguitarForums.com" and look around for the group buys, and order through them... B)

[mdmayfield]

I would like to know if the Helix intelligent pitch shifting is able to correctly play the harmonies as shift they from 3rd's to 4ths in real time as they appear on the original song?

 

 

 

Well, he is correct that the GT-10 harmonizer will do what he wants. It allows for customizable user-defined scales where you can select the interval for each note. The Helix harmonizer doesn't currently have this feature.

 

Byron, don't know if you saw this already, but Phil is a beta tester for the Helix and actually has one, so his confirmation above is reliable (for the current firmware version).

 

It seems plausible that they might someday implement such a feature, but there's no guarantee... or even likelihood, unless it gets a lot of votes on the IdeaScale page.

[byronnemeth]

Well, he is correct that the GT-10 harmonizer will do what he wants. It allows for customizable user-defined scales where you can select the interval for each note. The Helix harmonizer doesn't currently have this feature.

 

THANK YOU PHIL!!! — Finally got some clarity on this subject.

 

I'm glad this thread was started, maybe down the road the Helix can do this.

 

I would think many guitar players would want this feature and yes I have suggested it in the IdeaScale Page.

 

Phil, if you could please keep us all posted on how this shapes up down the road with future Helix software updates that would be much appreciated.

 

Thank you sir :-)

 

Byron Nemeth

[mdmayfield]

Although..... This doesn't look too difficult, as long as the band doesn't rush the song way too fast:

 

Heck, I once had to learn the double lead on one guitar for And Your Bird Can Sing by the Beatles - this would be a piece of cake compared to that!  :o  :D

[stumblinman]

Although..... This doesn't look too difficult, as long as the band doesn't rush the song way too fast:

 

 

Heck, I once had to learn the double lead on one guitar for And Your Bird Can Sing by the Beatles - this would be a piece of cake compared to that! :o :D

My favorite Beatles tune. Fun to play, catchy, and love the harmonies on vocals too. I'm hard pressed to find two people whose voices mesh better in harmony than McCartney/Lennon.

[AlienSexGod]

Although..... This doesn't look too difficult, as long as the band doesn't rush the song way too fast:

 

Heck, I once had to learn the double lead on one guitar for And Your Bird Can Sing by the Beatles - this would be a piece of cake compared to that!  :o  :D

 

Mayfield and Eric Blackmon win for showing how to harmonise it correctly whilst using a Helix! Legendary!  :P

[burningyen]

Here's the direct link to the Ideascale page for others who are interested in this feature:

 

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/A-user-defined-scale-to-program-all-12-notes-for-Thin-Lizzy/780865-23508

[josephyballew]

THANK YOU PHIL!!! — Finally got some clarity on this subject.

 

I'm glad this thread was started, maybe down the road the Helix can do this.

 

I would think many guitar players would want this feature and yes I have suggested it in the IdeaScale Page.

 

Phil, if you could please keep us all posted on how this shapes up down the road with future Helix software updates that would be much appreciated.

 

Thank you sir :-)

 

Byron Nemeth

Everyone needs to vote on custom scales for all twelve notes of the scale. You can also do the harmony by creating two presets with two different interval and switch between the two. The question is can you switch back and forth quit enough. Boss and Fractal both support custom scales in their units and for over 5 years.

[TheDaveDaveDave]

Wow, there's a lot of confusion on this thread - i probably am confused too. In short YES, you can easily set up the Helix to play the Thin Lizzy solo harmonies, but you'll have to hit a footswitch. There's no way that a custom programmed scale will help to achieve the results without a footswitch press to change the scale or the intervals.... Of note, even in the Hotel California video, the player has to switch the harmonizer into a different scale. I'm pretty sure if you just sit down and try it, you'll find it's not that hard (I did, and I did) :)

[fredsiegle]

Is everyone sure the HD500X and Helix can't do this?  My Digitech GNX2, and RP-355 do this easily.  You just tell them the key and you play.  That's it.  My TC Helicon Harmony G does the same thing for my voice.  If not using the guitar input trigger the Harmony G allows you to specify the key as well.  None of these units require any user interaction - they just work.  It's not that complicated to program this feature into a DSP.  It's just music theory.

[fredsiegle]

[ChubbyJerk]

Is everyone sure the HD500X and Helix can't do this?  My Digitech GNX2, and RP-355 do this easily.  You just tell them the key and you play.  That's it.  My TC Helicon Harmony G does the same thing for my voice.  If not using the guitar input trigger the Harmony G allows you to specify the key as well.  None of these units require any user interaction - they just work.  It's not that complicated to program this feature into a DSP.  It's just music theory.

It's not that simple, because it's not the same interval for each note. Sometimes it's the appropriate 3rd, sometimes it's the 4th. No unit will do that without human interaction - either you have to use a footswitch / expression pedal to tell it which you want on the fly, or you have to specify an interval for each note in the key ahead of time. This is quite clearly spelled out more than once in the earlier posts.

 

With the GNX2, for example, you can set the key (A) and the type of scale (major) and the interval (3rd). (Most smart harmonizers work this way, unless they process an incoming signal to get the chord.) But this won't give you the correct harmony for the whole solo, because they're not all 3rds. You cannot simply select something that will give you the following (copied from above, credit to mdmayfield):

A -> C#   - major 3rd

B -> D   - minor 3rd

C# -> E  - minor 3rd

D -> F#  - major 3rd

E -> A  - perfect 4th

F# -> B  - perfect 4th

G# -> ?

[fredsiegle]

Ok I gotcha - good point. Those specific TL harmonies do use perfect 4ths and I was thinking in more general terms about using a mixture of minor and major 3rds or 6ths etc. I'd be surprised if there's any device that knows how to play the exact harmonies desired for specific songs like that.

[cornerstonetom]

I have a Harmony Man... I'll have to see if plugging it in to the external loop would work.

[ChubbyJerk]

Ok I gotcha - good point. Those specific TL harmonies do use perfect 4ths and I was thinking in more general terms about using a mixture of minor and major 3rds or 6ths etc. I'd be surprised if there's any device that knows how to play the exact harmonies desired for specific songs like that.

No problem. It's easy to skim through a thread like this and miss the details like that.

[gunpointmetal]

wants to play two guitar parts....doesn't want to step on a pedal....

[billlorentzen]

The op was sept 2015. We can stop trying to help this guy I think.

[bonzai01]

Phil,

 

   Is there any plans to do user-defined harmonies?  This feature would be very important to me as I use it fairly often.

 

Thanks,

Billy