Which active FRFR cab with Helix ?

[glenbury]

Hi,

I'm getting interested in the Helix but I'm not sure what type of FRFR to play through live.

I play in a 3 piece cover band playing 60's thru 80's Rock so I just want to simulate playing

through a single amp. Is a Stagesource the logical choice since it's a Line 6 product with the L6 link ?

Which Stagesource would be appropriate in my case if I would be the only input.

I noticed the Gemini I and Atomic CLR as other choices.

I play in small to medium size venues.

Thanks !

 

.

[troy]

there is so much info avail on this topic ... use the search function... that's what the internet is for

 

1- are you sure you want to use FRFR? do you have any experience with it?

 

2- budget?

 

3- does your band use IEM's? a PA?

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but there is so much info avail on your question ... how are a bunch of people you don't know able to make suggestions on a purchase we have know idea you can afford or what your expectations are etc....

 

you should do a little reading and at least come back with a more informed question

[jaminjimlp]

Hi,

I'm getting interested in the Helix but I'm not sure what type of FRFR to play through live.

I play in a 3 piece cover band playing 60's thru 80's Rock so I just want to simulate playing

through a single amp. Is a Stagesource the logical choice since it's a Line 6 product with the L6 link ?

Which Stagesource would be appropriate in my case if I would be the only input.

I noticed the Gemini I and Atomic CLR as other choices.

I play in small to medium size venues.

Thanks !

 

.

1 or 2 Stagesource L2m's IMHO thats what I have and there great... 

[JLondon]

In my opinion, Stagesource is the way to go.  But if you want to use the FRFR speaker just like an amp forget it and just go 4 cable method from the Helix into your favorite amp and cab because you cant mic the stagesource speakers to the soundboard in a practical sense..  Assuming you 'are' currently miking your amp into the soundboard for live play, my preferred method would be to use the FRFR speaker simply to monitor yourself on stage and xlr out directly from the Helix to the soundboard.  In this case you may be able to get by with the L2 speaker depending upon how loud your band is.  The L2 is MUCH easier to lug around and takes up less stage space.  The L3 is as heavy as my 412 cab.  I'm using 2 L3s for home play in stereo which is awesome obviously.  I use a single L2 for live stage play as described previously.   Lastly, I'll just say that while FRFR system is awesome, there will be much more learning curve making your presets sound the way you want than running the Helix into an amp via 4 cable method.  Not harder, just different - which is kinda true of the Helix vs. analog setup in general.  Due to previous conceptual expectations many freak out & fear they've made a mistake when they first get started especially due to the fact that the factory installed presets are the first thing tried.  I think most people would be better off watching a few YouTube videos and then begin by learning to create their own presets to suit their own setup/equipment before trying to use a generic, one-size-fits-all preset. 

[njglover]

I recently discovered that, even at a relatively nice venue with a relatively nice sound system, an FRFR (or in ears) is still essential for monitoring myself on stage. I tried my first go at using only what they had for monitoring and I just about destroyed the monitor trying to get enough volume to hear myself over the other guitarist, but since he had his amp plus the monitors, the overall volume from him was much greater. Will be bringing my K10 to every gig from now on... it's a pretty decent speaker, relatively light with a nice handle, plus it has a really wide listening angle so it works really well as a wedge.

[glenbury]

Thanks for your replies.

I've tried the the 4CM previously when I was using the POD HD and I really don't want to get into  

that again. I was never really happy with how that sounded or putting it through different amp cabs.

The amp cabs always seemed to compromise the POD sound.

I'm looking for a simple , light-weight solution now.

I'm thinking the Helix into an L2m via L6 link then XLR to my BOSE PA speaker.

We're a 3 piece band with two Bose L II speakers which are used strictly for vocals.  

Yes, I could go from the Helix 

directly to the Bose but I was never happy with that setup when I was using the POD HD.

Maybe the Helix would be a different story ?  Not so sure.

 

BTW, do you guys mount the L2m and face it out to the audience or just use it as a floor monitor

facing yourself ?

 

I'm thinking of going back to "modeling " again because I've read so much 

about how the Helix amp models are a vast improvement over the POD HD

Thanks again !

[njglover]

Thanks for your replies.

I've tried the the 4CM previously when I was using the POD HD and I really don't want to get into  

that again. I was never really happy with how that sounded or putting it through different amp cabs.

The amp cabs always seemed to compromise the POD sound.

I'm looking for a simple , light-weight solution now.

I'm thinking the Helix into an L2m via L6 link then XLR to my BOSE PA speaker.

We're a 3 piece band with two Bose L II speakers which are used strictly for vocals.  

Yes, I could go from the Helix 

directly to the Bose but I was never happy with that setup when I was using the POD HD.

Maybe the Helix would be a different story ?  Not so sure.

 

BTW, do you guys mount the L2m and face it out to the audience or just use it as a floor monitor

facing yourself ?

 

I'm thinking of going back to "modeling " again because I've read so much 

about how the Helix amp models are a vast improvement over the POD HD

Thanks again !

 

If the venue has a decent PA, I'll run direct to front of house and have them mix me in. My FRFR would be used facing me (away from the crowd) strictly for monitoring purposes. If they don't have a decent PA (ie would not be miking me if I had a real amp), I will still wedge it but put it behind me facing out instead.

 

FWIW, if you don't like how it sounds coming out of the Bose, you aren't likely to like how it sounds coming out of an FRFR. The Bose is designed to make everything sound good, an FRFR is designed to make everything sound how it's supposed to sound without any sugar coating.

[klangmaler]

...you can have it that way, alternatively :P :

 

[Stevief]

Hi,

I'm getting interested in the Helix but I'm not sure what type of FRFR to play through live.

I play in a 3 piece cover band playing 60's thru 80's Rock so I just want to simulate playing

through a single amp. Is a Stagesource the logical choice since it's a Line 6 product with the L6 link ?

Which Stagesource would be appropriate in my case if I would be the only input.

I noticed the Gemini I and Atomic CLR as other choices.

I play in small to medium size venues.

Thanks !

 

.

[Stevief]

Hi Troy really kicked you in the nuts may you should have just asked what do other forum members use and how do you they sound ? Thats what help and advice from forums are for. But in my opinion the full frequency range of speakers wants to be 60 kz - 20khz which is a far greater range than guitar amplifier cabinets and use a linear PA amp (un colored) Transparent For a good clear sound as for yourAmp i would suggest a 500 watt amplifier to give you some head room and go through a mixer say a Yamaha M6 Excellent quality and low priced and try different 2 way 3 way speakers maybe good monitor speakers basically you would have your own Pa System then you can allways line out to the front of house desk hope thats of some help to your questions it is a little daunting when starting and you need all the help you can get and there are some very educated helpful experienced members on this forum good luck !

[PeterHamm]

If you play regularly with the same PA, the answer is always the one that sounds most like that PA.

[spikey]

FWIW, if you don't like how it sounds coming out of the Bose, you aren't likely to like how it sounds coming out of an FRFR.

 

 

I don't have a Bose setup so I can't say for sure, but I would think the guitar tones from a CLR would be better "Helix" wise, than from a Bose PA. Like I said, this is speculation and I'm only going by what each is specifically made for. 

[jimbojamz]

I use this:

Electro-Voice ZLX-12P 12" 2-Way Powered Loudspeaker

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Electro-Voice/ZLX-12P-12-2-Way-Powered-Loudspeaker.gc

Clean and Loud!

I use it in a 3 guitar + bass and keyboard classic rock band. Keeps up fine. 

[aleclee]

I have no experience with StageSource but I've used both the CLR and QSC K8 playing in bands where the other guitarist used a tube amp.  I much prefer the sound of the CLR though the portability of the QSC is a definite advantage.

 

I just about destroyed the monitor trying to get enough volume to hear myself over the other guitarist, but since he had his amp plus the monitors, the overall volume from him was much greater.

Frankly, that sounds more like an issue with your band's stage volume than one with FRFR.  Hope you're at least using hearing protection.

[kimsharp]

I use a pair of Line 6 L3M's in stereo. 

[JLondon]

I'm very pleased with the Line 6 Stagesource speakers. But you have to make a choice whether to use them in "guitar mode" or "PA reference. Guitar mode will sound better with factory and other downloaded presets as is for your own listening pleasure. But if you want to use the speaker as a reference monitor for live performance and you want the FOH to have the same sound your are hearing, you need to use "PA reference mode" and suffer the inconvenience of having to tweak every preset you purchase or download because they will all be too muddy/bassy in their original form. This is because FRFR speakers have a wider range than regular amp speakers. The latter is what I choose to do and I believe it's worth it. No more 4 cable method for me. I use two L3s at home in stereo for fun (and awesome for just listening to music), and a single L2 for live play as a reference monitor via L6 LINK. XLR out in back of Helix goes straight to FOH.

[taylorbeats]

You said lightweight?  Make sure you lift a stagesource first.  My def of lightweight=wife/girlfriend/sig other can carry them and not complain. Alto 10's or 12's she never complained.  She picked up the stagesource once, never did that again.

[metallica86]

I. But if you want to use the speaker as a reference monitor for live performance and you want the FOH to have the same sound your are hearing, you need to use "PA reference mode" and suffer the inconvenience of having to tweak every preset you purchase or download because they will all be too muddy/bassy in their original form. This is because FRFR speakers have a wider range than regular amp speakers. 

 

This is EXACT issue I have with both my Ax8 and Helix into FRFR, any tips you can provide how to tweak the preset or the purchase preset to avoid the muddy or bassy etc,.. ? I have EV ZLX and alto TS, both have same issues 

[bsd512]

This is EXACT issue I have with both my Ax8 and Helix into FRFR, any tips you can provide how to tweak the preset or the purchase preset to avoid the muddy or bassy etc,.. ? I have EV ZLX and alto TS, both have same issues 

 

I have a pair of L3t's that I used to make most of my patches and are a relatively permanent fixture in my play room and provide a superbly awesome sound plus a fantastically immersive stereo field. I couldn't be happier with them.

 

But for a more lightweight, yet economical solution for when I want to grab and go to a practice or just jam with some friends, I bought a single Alto TS212. My patches through it, as compared to the L3t's I made them on, they sounded way more bassy and muddy. This is not a dig against the Alto - I just didn't make my patches for that speaker.

 

My quick solution was to make a global EQ setting to adjust for the bassy'ness and make it sound as closely as I could to the L3t's. So when I use it, I just enable that global EQ, and when I get back home with my L3t's, I just disable the EQ. That works fine, but does nothing for the loss of the awesomeness of the immersive stereo field I get from having a pair of L3t's versus a single mono output. :)

[JLondon]

This is EXACT issue I have with both my Ax8 and Helix into FRFR, any tips you can provide how to tweak the preset or the purchase preset to avoid the muddy or bassy etc,.. ? I have EV ZLX and alto TS, both have same issues 

 

I use the L6 LINK and cable so I can't use global EQ as suggested previously in another reply.  LINK disables global eq.  Anyway, my main suggestion to you is that you use consistency in whatever method you take.  For instance, I suggest you make a template preset just for the purpose of storing eq blocks.  One for each guitar you own or guitar/speaker combination.  Then  just copy/paste it into whatever preset you are using or making.  I would also recommend eq blocks for different size venues if you play out.  Also the low and high cut settings are extremely important when you dial in a cab sim.  And in most cases, stay away from the beyerdynamic microphones in your cab sims when using FRFR cabs.  I love them, but I think most FRFR speakers already display that microphonic characteristic.  IR cab sims 'can' be problematic as they are less tweak-able than stock cabs and are basically made to sound one way

[DunedinDragon]

This is EXACT issue I have with both my Ax8 and Helix into FRFR, any tips you can provide how to tweak the preset or the purchase preset to avoid the muddy or bassy etc,.. ? I have EV ZLX and alto TS, both have same issues 

 

The fix for this varies based on which amp/cab/mic you're using.  Sometimes you can fix this by simply setting the low cut on the cabinet up around 130 to 150hz, but that can sometimes affect the tone you want.  If that doesn't fix it you can probably address it by putting a low cut at around 120hz and use a parametric EQ block toward the end of your chain and take out a small slice of low frequency range without affecting the overall bass tone using the following parameters.

 

Low Freq - 160 - 200 (adjust this by ear)

 

Low Q - 1.7

 

Low Gain - -2

 

That takes out the muddiness on many amp/cab/mic configurations.

[metallica86]

THANKS SO MUCH GUYS !!, I will try it out this weekend for sure

[andreluisarruda]

I just bought the Helix and the EV ZLX 12P and with a few adjustments I could easily make it sound like my Mesa Boogie Single Rectifier Series 1 Rect-O-Verb.

 

In the Global Settings I adjusted the LowCut to 81Hz and the HiCut between 7 to 8.1. 

 

It worked wonders! 

 

Hope this helps!

 

:-)

[HonestOpinion]

I'm very pleased with the Line 6 Stagesource speakers. But you have to make a choice whether to use them in "guitar mode" or "PA reference. Guitar mode will sound better with factory and other downloaded presets as is for your own listening pleasure. But if you want to use the speaker as a reference monitor for live performance and you want the FOH to have the same sound your are hearing, you need to use "PA reference mode" and suffer the inconvenience of having to tweak every preset you purchase or download because they will all be too muddy/bassy in their original form. This is because FRFR speakers have a wider range than regular amp speakers. The latter is what I choose to do and I believe it's worth it. No more 4 cable method for me. I use two L3s at home in stereo for fun (and awesome for just listening to music), and a single L2 for live play as a reference monitor via L6 LINK. XLR out in back of Helix goes straight to FOH.

 

Jlondon's description is exactly the criteria I use to select "Electric Guitar" or "PA/Reference" mode.  I use the PA/Reference mode during my preset design to better anticipate what the presets will sound like through the PA. I also use PA/Reference mode when it is a stage monitor to better reflect what the FOH sounds like. Wanted to add that if you turn a Stagesource speaker on while it is on its side it should go into "Floor Monitor" mode automatically which is essentially the same as PA/Reference but also reduces bass frequencies to account for coupling with the floor. That is usually the desired mode for floor operation and you can switch to it manually if necessary.

 

When I first started using my Stagesource as a monitor I used the L6 Link as I always liked the idea of an all digital signal path. The problem was global EQ does not affect the digital output. I have since changed to the standard line level input so that when I choose to engage the global EQ it is reflected in my stage monitor as well as the FOH. I do this for the same reason I use the PA/Reference mode, I want my floor monitor to sound as similar as possible to the FOH.  I also figured that since I am sending a standard analog signal to the FOH I might as well send one to my monitor to minimize differences between the two.

[hideout]

Hmmm, since Line6 is intimately familiar with the Stagesource, I wonder if they could put that "electric guitar" mode in the Helix so that the stagesource can maintain its full range capabilities and the Helix owner wouldn't have to do as much tweaking to all his patches.

For that matter, wouldn't it be cool if we could have a "Utility Mode" in the Helix, plug a measurement mic in the mic input and have the Helix send out some pink noise to measure and create a new adjusted curve for for any speaker it's plugged into?

[HonestOpinion]

Hmmm, since Line6 is intimately familiar with the Stagesource, I wonder if they could put that "electric guitar" mode in the Helix so that the stagesource can maintain its full range capabilities and the Helix owner wouldn't have to do as much tweaking to all his patches.

For that matter, wouldn't it be cool if we could have a "Utility Mode" in the Helix, plug a measurement mic in the mic input and have the Helix send out some pink noise to measure and create a new adjusted curve for for any speaker it's plugged into?

 

According to Line6's product literature the "Electric Guitar" mode essentially puts much less emphasis on the horn and relies primarily on the main speaker in the Stagesource speakers in an effort to more faithfully emulate a traditional guitar cabinet. It appears to be EQ'd differently as well. Excellent if you are either playing without a PA or if you prefer hearing a sound closer to that of a traditional guitar cab on stage with minimal effort. I can see where this is just the ticket for many players and a timesaver for players who don't feel like having to mess about with their presets. Much as I love hearing a more traditional guitar cabinet sound on stage I prefer to achieve that by tweaking my presets to get that sound and monitoring through a powered speaker (Stagesource speaker in PA/Reference mode in my case). That way I am more assured that the FOH sounds closer to a guitar cabinet and is much more akin to what I am hearing on stage. I don't want to have my monitor EQ'd such that it sounds great on stage and unbeknownst to me the FOH sounds boomy and brittle. As much as possible I prefer to generate a stageworthy tone directly from the Helix so that I am ensured a good starting point for whatever speaker I end up playing through, even if some final last minute customization is required.

 

Quote from Stagesource L2 Quick Start guide:

Electric Guitar Mode

The overall frequency response emulates the sound of a 212 combo amp. The 10†speaker plays full range, with the horn adding only the smallest amount of sparkle.