General discussion of sound physics often unread or ignored in the FRFR argument

[WickedFinger]

I must have said this sort of thing a million times. EQ is relevant to environment and volume, that is a fact of physics. The problem these days is that many have no idea what the science means or consists. Seems adjusting an EQ via the use of pink noise and spectrum analyzer has been forgotten over using your ears and the infinite range of degrade and flawed biologic issues each person has. One of the primary standards in all scientific testing and experiments is the establishment of reference and control. If you have a home studio or any studio and you have not analyzed the space at various volume levels to determine its spikes and resonant frequency issues then you have no idea what it means to study sound engineering or the proper use of a global or system main EQ. You are in no way an actual "engineer" that is capable of producing music to any sense of industry and science standard that would be viable on any listening scenario. You would be in effect making something compensated and adjusted to sound good on your personal system in your personal environment. 

 

Parametrics and internal block or pedal EQ things are there to adjust the infinitely variable needs of a particular preset, before, it goes out to the reference system EQ. Running sound is a science not a hap hazard ear adjust methodology. No guitar can be heard in any sense in the extreme range of 20Hz to 20KHz human hearing which is basically what full range speakers systems were designed to reproduce. FRFR is used in the studio to encompass the low kick of drums and the feel and the ringing high presence and sibilant of cymbals, not just guitar. Other musical instruments produce frequency response outside the ranges of guitar like an orchestra, strings, organ and what have you. 
When I was running a Gr-55 guitar synth producing other musical instruments an FRFR rig was essential because there were frequencies present that needed to be reproduced. 

 

In regard to guitar rigs all one is doing is taking a fullrange device and EQ curving it down to the guitars freq ranges. So question remains if one is putting in a signal IR and EQ'd across the range of the guitar in the first place then what is the additional ability of the FRFR speakers to reproduce in a range they are not given??? Take into consideration your massive guitar tone be that as it may when it goes through a FRFR speaker design is being split through frequency crossovers into different speakers, so the unified signal is being divided into different speakers from its unified start. While that sort of thing would go unnoticed and is a part of fidelity in a listening system, is it something you want to do to the live sound of your guitar? There is a difference in a playback of a music source and the creation of that sound before it becomes something in playback. What sort of guitar tone and sound do you want? 

 

This is why I advocate using higher end more advanced high wattage guitar speakers on amp modelers over FRFR rigs. I have both and believe me if one sounded much better than the other I would use it, that is why I prefer my custom wired and loaded 4x12 for the shear real amp tone, punch, and low end, without mud and range of highs across the entire ability of the guitar. Seems coming from an age of cheap low wattage severe coloring guitar speakers muddles the understanding that higher end guitar speakers are a different animal. If you want the sound and coloring of the low tech speakers that is exactly what an IR is for. Use them on presets into the higher guitar speakers to color the sound just as you would an FRFR rig it works. 

My sound engineer brother wanted to know out of curiosity what sort of frequency spectrum one of my prior guitar cabs was doing to the sound, he was a bit shocked to discover it was nearly a flat response across the entire range of the guitar spectrum, what lies outside the range of the guitar is just not there so why worry a rig and system that can reproduce what it is not given??? 

[gunpointmetal]

You seem to be of the understanding that nobody plugging into an FRFR rig understands sound physics or audio engineering. Your method of amplification is preferable to you, because it gets you the sound you want. Mine is preferable to me for the same reasons. I like to have an amplification method that is as close as is affordable to what my guitars will sound like out front, so if I want to DI my modeler into the FOH, I should probably have something similar to organize my sounds and monitor with. Otherwise, I'm just a dude with a 4x12 that sounds awesome where I'm standing at the front of the stage and is beaming the front row in the earballs with harsh top end and lacking bass (because off-axis, that tone would sound KILLER) and the sound guy would be HP/LP filtering my guitar anyways.

[WickedFinger]

No it is just science and how things work, opinions are not a matter of science, it does not require ones belief of opinion it is simply the foundation premise of the laws of physics. Again you justify everything as to what someone hears. We use scientific measuring tools to measure see and hear things beyond the flawed ability of biological personal appendages. One's personal want or dislike of sound is something worked out in your own personal preset sounds not a reference system or the how and why of a global system EQ. 

Are you aware you can DI tap the speaker line(s) and send that primary tone to the PA without the need of further mic coloring? 

If your sound PA engineer is adjusting the environment system EQ by ear he is not a sound engineer but a hobbyist. 

As a bit of history, high wattage guitar amps were developed to be heard by the audience on stage when one did not dream to have their primary sound solely in the hands of the PA guy. Do you think any one in the crowd is having trouble being off axis from Malmsteen's wall of Marshalls which he indeed has on. Extreme example of course. Do you want to hear your guitar through a monitor from the PA, fine. Want your main sound to go to the PA, one wonders what arenas you are playing. I am interested in producing the most viable great sounding guitar tones and whether one pipes that to an external source using DIs or lines or off to a recording medium the whole premise is the primary sound and how amazing it is. If someone wants the most amp like real tones out of your modeler there is a better way to get them. 

This is intended for the argument of everyone buying and using FRFR speakers for their modeler and the use of global and system EQ adjusts. 

By the way I just happen to have a good 4x12 I use, you can put high end guitar speakers in any config one likes, split twin 12s and point them out to the crowd as you wish. It is not about me or my 4x12 use it is what sounds the best and why we need FRFR on our modelers to reproduce ranges they do not see. 

[cruisinon2]

That's right folks, tonight and one night only here at the Arrogance Ballroom, it's Satchmo WickedFinger blowing his own horn....

[klangmaler]

"Just a gear nut and a obsessive tone seeker. Into amp modeling and the Helix right now. Playing only Les Paul's these days. Not playing out live or recording, just doing what I want when I want. 

Playing for enough decades to get sufficiently fed up and angry at stupid guitarists and even more angry at myself when I do something really stupid, just to keep up the illusion I am human of course. "

[gunpointmetal]

That would be why I set up our practice room and my gear with an RTA and noise sweeps, and why I can tell audibly (not just scientifically) the difference between a guitar cab (even with 125 watt "modern" guitar speakers) with IR/cab modeling in front of it, and without it. Ultimately, its whatever works for you. Guitar cabs/speakers are very directional, frequency-wise, PA speakers are less-so, thats why when I've run sound (on some crappy PAs that I didn't get to set-up for myself), 85% of the time I have to put a mic pretty far off the cone, and rarely directly on-axis to get a palatable sound out front. The point of the FRFR is not necessarily to hear things outside the guitar range, but to know what that fully-processed guitar signal is going to sound like through a system that offers greater frequency response. Unless you're mic'ing your own cab (which, if there's a sound guy, why would you do that yourself, that's what he's paid for), or are using an IR of your exact cab on a separate line (with the microphone in exactly the spot you'll be using to mic your cab, into the relatively full-range monitors) , you don't know what your sound is like out front, just how its coming out of the amp. Which, given the nature of a guitar speaker, will change drastically depending on your location/orientation from the cone.....

[DunedinDragon]

This is a perfect example of science running headlong into the harsh realities of the world.

 

In spite of all the classroom minutiae of how the sound is processed, that sound will ultimately be heard by human ears, all of which respond independently and are subject to the physical realities of their locations in relation to the sound source.  This is where the physics falls apart because we rarely, in live performance, are blessed with an ideal placement for each person in a perfect acoustic setting.  So we try to cover as broad a spectrum as we can in the design of PA speakers systems to at least give the best sound we can to the most people in a way that's evenly distributed.

 

What we hear on stage may or may not be an accurate representation of that sound once it's processed for the ears of the audience, but one thing is for certain.  A guitar cabinet will not produce that same sound or sound distribution in the same manner as a modern PA system whether that be by conventional powered speakers or a line array.  The best you can hope for, which is what many of us opt to do, is to emulate that sound production and sound distribution through the use of similar mechanical/sonic processes so that we can tailor our sound to best match the ultimate output system.

 

I've said this before and I'll say it again.  I opt to use the powered speaker I use (Yamaha DXR12) because it best simulates the sonic characteristics of the system I know (most of the time) will be projecting that sound to the audience's ears (QSC KLA12).  I don't stand on stage so I can selfishlishly please myself and my ears, I stand on stage to ensure the audience experiences the best sound experience I can give them.  And in order to do that I need to focus on what THEY will hear, not what I will hear, and this is my best shot at doing that.

[Rocco_Crocco]

WickedFinger, what's with all the concern about people's speaker preference?

 

I use an FRFR because I like how my Helix sounds through it, and I'd rather not lug aound a 4x12 cab.

 

I don't care about science, because my imperfect ears, and those of the audience, are my primary concern.

 

 

Why am I even bothering responding to this lol.

[robbieb61]

Keith Richards would be swinging his telecaster at wickedfinfers head by the second sentence of that post lol

[spikey]

That's right folks, tonight and one night only here at the Arrogance Ballroom, it's Satchmo WickedFinger blowing his own horn....

 

Was this the opening act?  ;)

[ricstudioc]

 I don't stand on stage so I can selfishlishly please myself and my ears, I stand on stage to ensure the audience experiences the best sound experience I can give them. 

 

You're a better man than I, as I very selfishly position my gear, and self, on stage so that I might orgasmically wallow in the majestic cloud that is my sound as produced by the Helix.  The audience...?  Screw'em - that's what I bought a sound system, and pay an engineer, for.  It's HIS job to ensure the audience experience - MY job is to be so caught up in the finger/tone/response intersection that, just possibly, I might take my playing to the next level, however briefly.

 

(Don't take that "screw'em" too literally - obviously they're the reason I'm there at all. But they're there to see what I can throw down, so "if A, then B"...)

[cruisinon2]

This is where the physics falls apart because we rarely, in live performance, are blessed with an ideal placement for each person in a perfect acoustic setting.

There's a seating chart at OP's gigs that's rigidly enforced. Nobody's allowed to move...they're the most awesome, "scientific" shows ever. As a mere hobbyist, I stand humbled in the presence of greatness. ;)

[WickedFinger]

Some will get the issue and the argument and some will just remain stupid. I do love the personal attacks which can only mean a reflection of your own egoism and your sense of inadequacy of making an argument so you get personal rather than deal with the discussion of facts. How very Trumpish of you. Does not have a freakin' thing to do with me in any way shape or form simply a discussion of using IRs to guitar curve response into a full range system which reproduces much more spectrum than the guitar is capable. Sorry some of you cannot get the premise. Please hate me because I am pretty.

Simple question why use full range speakers on an amp modeler unit as opposed to using high end guitar speakers? Can you pose a discussion or just refute science? 

[ricstudioc]

There's a seating chart at OP's gigs that's rigidly enforced. Nobody's allowed to move...they're the most awesome, "scientific" shows ever. As a mere hobbyist, I stand humbled in the presence of greatness. ;)

heh heh... good'un.

 

Gotta admit I'm a bit baffled by the whole point of the OP - but hey, who am I to judge...?

[cruisinon2]

Some will get the issue and the argument and some will just remain stupid. I do love the personal attacks which can only mean a reflection of your own egoism and your sense of inadequacy of making an argument so you get personal rather than deal with the discussion of facts. How very Trumpish of you. Does not have a freakin' thing to do with me in any way shape or form simply a discussion of using IRs to guitar curve response into a full range system which reproduces much more spectrum than the guitar is capable. Sorry some of you cannot get the premise. Please hate me because I am pretty.

Simple question why use full range speakers on an amp modeler unit as opposed to using high end guitar speakers? Can you pose a discussion or just refute science?

Wow. That's deep. And just how would your brand of armchair psychoanalysis describe someone who begins a "scientific discussion" with thinly veiled insults about others' abilities or intellect, followed by back-pedaling, playing the victim, and pretending to take the high road after the fact? I'll give it a shot...I'd say it displays a sad need for public adulation for being the smartest guy in the room. A classic symptom of the over-abundance of ego, with a healthy dose of inadequacy, and just enough book smarts to be irritating at cocktail parties.

 

But then again, what do I know? I'm just one of the "stupid" ones.

[mileskb]

But what we really want to know is if the backing tracks sound better off a CD or Vinyl album?   

 

I apologize in advance to those who just spit their beverage over their keyboard.

 

FWIW...  because I can be a real arse when something needs to be said.   We FOH guys get paid for what our EARS enable us to do with the gear provided, not the other way around.   

 

FWIW... umm additional.

Tom Scholz has sold 75 million records to date on the premise that a guitar rig should be processed to be sent through an FRFR system... and he has a master's degree in Mechanical Engineering engineering as well.

 

Plainly speaking... Line6, Kemper and AxeFX are about 35 years late to the party.. but best late than never.

 

( Insert Sound of Microphone Drop )

[evalenzu]

Some will get the issue and the argument and some will just remain stupid. I do love the personal attacks which can only mean a reflection of your own egoism and your sense of inadequacy of making an argument so you get personal rather than deal with the discussion of facts. How very Trumpish of you. Does not have a freakin' thing to do with me in any way shape or form simply a discussion of using IRs to guitar curve response into a full range system which reproduces much more spectrum than the guitar is capable. Sorry some of you cannot get the premise. Please hate me because I am pretty.

Simple question why use full range speakers on an amp modeler unit as opposed to using high end guitar speakers? Can you pose a discussion or just refute science? 

The reason I use FRFR speakers as opposed to a guitar cab is so that I can have my different patches with different cabs modeled.  If I used a guitar cab, that would color an already colored tone.  FRFR lets me be free to dial up any amp and any cab any time.

[robbieb61]

Wickedfinger, I'm just pointing out that The Beatles didn't care one bit about what you are saying when George Harrison played "While My Guitar Gently Weeps".

 

Page would have laughed in anyone's face who tried to tell him he is "stupid" for trusting his ears and his vision.

 

Van Halen didn't need any science discussion to achieve his tone.

The truly great ones didn't give a damn about any of the stuff you're saying.

 

I'm not discounting what you are saying, I'm just pointing out that true musical sounds come from the player and his ears.

 

If you get close to your own idea of great tone by reading physics books...good for you.

 

No need to be self-pretentious and think you are smarter than other people.

 

Listen to the awesome tone of the slide guitar on Jackson Browne's "Running On Empty". David is playing a cheap trash guitar through a cheap tiny amp and it stands the test of time as a great sound.

 

Using your logic in this post...it shouldn't sound good at all and he is "stupid"

 

Come on man...don't be "that guy" on the forum. Lighten up and share your ideas without copping an attitude.

[roscoe5]

Despite some of the negativity, in think there are some good points in this thread.

 

There are a lot of older, pre-modern-FRFR Fractal threads where solid state amps EV 12L speakers were preferred for their flat response. You can see this in the spec sheets of the EVs.

 

I've often considered putting a pair in my Mesa 212 and running just a single path with cabs/IRs to FOH and stage. I worry a bit about the Recto 212 cab itself coloring too much for full range though.

 

I personally haven't gotten along with Helix through stage monitors and L2 at close range pointed up at me I think because of the split sound from the tweeter. Its really harsh unless i get way back from it. Studio monitors and headphones sound fine, and of course PA.

 

If I do go on later to try a real FRFR rig, it would probably be the Mission Gemini with coaxial Eminence Beta 12CX speakers and the eMpower eq feature that adjusts the response between flat and tradional guitar cab.

 

I do also agree with other posts about giving the FOH a good, consistent sound to your close range stage sound. I tried my best to IR my own cab as it would be best dual micd and send that IR path to FOH, even though I'm using the physical version of that cab on stage.

 

But yeah, if i had a Variax with acoustic models and a bunch of synth or organ type effects, I'd probably go to FRFR...take the red pill and enter the Matrix...there is no spoon :)

[talwilkins]

 

(Don't take that "screw'em" too literally - obviously they're the reason I'm there at all. But they're there to see what I can throw down, so "if A, then B"...)

 

 

Actually I think the first reason you should be there is for the music and yes, of course the audiance needs a great experience.

That means, IMHO, first of all the musicians need orgasmic sound and emmersive experience so they can perform at their absolute best.

Then the soundguy needs to make it the best experience possible for the audience.

So in the end both the musicians and the audience need to get the best sound possible.

[talwilkins]

Some will get the issue and the argument and some will just remain stupid. I do love the personal attacks which can only mean a reflection of your own egoism and your sense of inadequacy of making an argument so you get personal rather than deal with the discussion of facts. How very Trumpish of you. Does not have a freakin' thing to do with me in any way shape or form simply a discussion of using IRs to guitar curve response into a full range system which reproduces much more spectrum than the guitar is capable. Sorry some of you cannot get the premise. Please hate me because I am pretty.

Simple question why use full range speakers on an amp modeler unit as opposed to using high end guitar speakers? Can you pose a discussion or just refute science? 

 

Yeah, I really can't understand the personal attacks either. There's no call for such a thing just because you don't agree.

And it doesn't answer any questions you are raising. It's really sad the world is more and more like this. People just don't repsect ech other's point of view and thinik the solution is to bash the person in stead of trying to enlighten them, preferably keeping the option open that their own point of view may need an update.

So we learn.

[DunedinDragon]

 

Simple question why use full range speakers on an amp modeler unit as opposed to using high end guitar speakers? Can you pose a discussion or just refute science? 

 

I think I already have, but I'll repeat it if you didn't understand what I was saying.

 

High end guitar speakers and cabinets, are not designed to perform the same function as FRFR speakers.  If you want a clear example of it, try pushing vocals through a guitar cabinet and you'll create a very unhappy vocalist.

 

Obviously frequency response plays a part in this, but that's not the only difference.  Beyond that,cabinet design and DSP play into it as well in order to provide some very key differences that are clearly audible.  The most important attributes are the way sound gets projected evenly and across a greater distance than will a traditional guitar cabinet and at generally lower SPL.  Guitar cabinets are designed (or better said, NOT designed) so that sound is projected EQUALLY in all directions, but not EVENLY in all directions.  This is what accounts for the fairly significant difference mic placement can make as well as the sound you hear depending on where the cabinet is placed relative to the listener.

 

Modern FRFR speakers address both of these issues in order to provide longer projection and a more even distribution because that's what they're required to do.  Unlike a guitar cabinet, sound is projected so that it's wider than it is tall.  They also have very significant drop-offs in sound levels outside of that rectangular sound space.  This conserves sound energy that would end up being lost into the ceiling and the floor , as well as behind the speaker and therefore that energy is sustained across a longer distance.  Likewise, other design characteristics provide for a more even projection of ALL frequencies across the entire physical width of that sound being projected.  This better ensures that someone sitting directly in front of the center of that speaker will hear pretty much the same thing as someone off to the side of center.  In effect eliminating the on/off axis tendencies you find in guitar cabinets, as well as the fairly rapid drop off of SPL across longer distances.

 

All of this might be interesting, but has little to do with why one would choose an FRFR cabinet over a guitar cabinet.  The fact is, the sound is (by design) different when it comes out of a FRFR speaker and when it comes out of a guitar cabinet because it's DESIGNED to be different.  And that is exactly why one chooses to use a FRFR speaker, because it IS different.  Therefore what you hear on stage will be much closer to the sound being sent to the audience.  Additionally, because of the even distribution of sound, other band members will hear a more accurate and articulated representation of your sound at a much lower SPL than the muffled sound they might hear from being well off center from a guitar cabinet.

 

That's why it's important that if you use a FRFR speaker you should design your patches using that FRFR speaker in order to produce exactly what you want the audience to hear.  And this is where the real advantage of FRFR speakers come into play.  Designing patches targeted for a FRFR speaker has quite a bit in common with the way you mix and master a guitar sound in a studio mix to precisely manage where it will sit within the soundstage of other instruments and vocals.  Something that's much harder to do with a less accurate speaker.

 

Granted, some of these things aren't particularly useful in situations where you aren't depending a great deal on the FOH for your sound distribution (such as a smaller bar).  But even then you'll gain the benefit of a more even distribution of sound with a longer throw at lower SPL with a better chance (if patches are designed correctly) to cut through the mix.

[talwilkins]

But what we really want to know is if the backing tracks sound better off a CD or Vinyl album?   

 

I apologize in advance to those who just spit their beverage over their keyboard.

 

FWIW...  because I can be a real arse when something needs to be said.   We FOH guys get paid for what our EARS enable us to do with the gear provided, not the other way around.   

 

FWIW... umm additional.

Tom Scholz has sold 75 million records to date on the premise that a guitar rig should be processed to be sent through an FRFR system... and he has a master's degree in Mechanical Engineering engineering as well.

 

Plainly speaking... Line6, Kemper and AxeFX are about 35 years late to the party.. but best late than never.

 

( Insert Sound of Microphone Drop )

 

There have been many musicians selling even more using non FRFF equipment so what's youre point here?

Selling 75 million records doesn't really answer the question of why it's such a good idea whis is ultimately the OP's question (as I read his post anyway).

And having a master's degree in mechanical engeneering doesn't mean you know anything about sound engineering.\

 

So the legitimate question, I think, is why is FRFF so much better when, as the OP stated, the frequencies of the guitar aren't there?

What's the use of processing and ampifying non existing frequencies?

It's a fair question that's been bugging me as well. I'm not saying FRFF is wrong, I just don't understand and would like to.

[talwilkins]

Wickedfinger, I'm just pointing out that The Beatles didn't care one bit about what you are saying when George Harrison played "While My Guitar Gently Weeps".

 

Page would have laughed in anyone's face who tried to tell him he is "stupid" for trusting his ears and his vision.

 

Van Halen didn't need any science discussion to achieve his tone.

The truly great ones didn't give a damn about any of the stuff you're saying.

 

I'm not discounting what you are saying, I'm just pointing out that true musical sounds come from the player and his ears.

 

If you get close to your own idea of great tone by reading physics books...good for you.

 

No need to be self-pretentious and think you are smarter than other people.

 

Listen to the awesome tone of the slide guitar on Jackson Browne's "Running On Empty". David is playing a cheap trash guitar through a cheap tiny amp and it stands the test of time as a great sound.

 

Using your logic in this post...it shouldn't sound good at all and he is "stupid"

 

Come on man...don't be "that guy" on the forum. Lighten up and share your ideas without copping an attitude.

 

To be fair, I don't think he's saying it shouldn't sound good at all. I think he's saying it shouldn't sound better as people are seeming to say it does. On top of that he explains why he doesn't understand why it would sound better and he's asking for an explanation.

What's so wrong about that?

Maybe it's me but I don't really read anything offending in his post except maybe his opinion that a real sound engineer would use EQ to compensate for the quirks of the studio's rooms, which is probably true.

Why is everyone so offended by that?

I still think he's asking a legit question.

[talwilkins]

I think I already have, but I'll repeat it if you didn't understand what I was saying.

 

High end guitar speakers and cabinets, are not designed to perform the same function as FRFR speakers.  If you want a clear example of it, try pushing vocals through a guitar cabinet and you'll create a very unhappy vocalist.

 

Obviously frequency response plays a part in this, but that's not the only difference.  Beyond that,cabinet design and DSP play into it as well in order to provide some very key differences that are clearly audible.  The most important attributes are the way sound gets projected evenly and across a greater distance than will a traditional guitar cabinet and at generally lower SPL.  Guitar cabinets are designed (or better said, NOT designed) so that sound is projected EQUALLY in all directions, but not EVENLY in all directions.  This is what accounts for the fairly significant difference mic placement can make as well as the sound you hear depending on where the cabinet is placed relative to the listener.

 

Modern FRFR speakers address both of these issues in order to provide longer projection and a more even distribution because that's what they're required to do.  Unlike a guitar cabinet, sound is projected so that it's wider than it is tall.  They also have very significant drop-offs in sound levels outside of that rectangular sound space.  This conserves sound energy that would end up being lost into the ceiling and the floor , as well as behind the speaker and therefore that energy is sustained across a longer distance.  Likewise, other design characteristics provide for a more even projection of ALL frequencies across the entire physical width of that sound being projected.  This better ensures that someone sitting directly in front of the center of that speaker will hear pretty much the same thing as someone off to the side of center.  In effect eliminating the on/off axis tendencies you find in guitar cabinets, as well as the fairly rapid drop off of SPL across longer distances.

 

All of this might be interesting, but has little to do with why one would choose an FRFR cabinet over a guitar cabinet.  The fact is, the sound is (by design) different when it comes out of a FRFR speaker and when it comes out of a guitar cabinet because it's DESIGNED to be different.  And that is exactly why one chooses to use a FRFR speaker, because it IS different.  Therefore what you hear on stage will be much closer to the sound being sent to the audience.  Additionally, because of the even distribution of sound, other band members will hear a more accurate and articulated representation of your sound at a much lower SPL than the muffled sound they might hear from being well off center from a guitar cabinet.

 

That's why it's important that if you use a FRFR speaker you should design your patches using that FRFR speaker in order to produce exactly what you want the audience to hear.  And this is where the real advantage of FRFR speakers come into play.  Designing patches targeted for a FRFR speaker has quite a bit in common with the way you mix and master a guitar sound in a studio mix to precisely manage where it will sit within the soundstage of other instruments and vocals.  Something that's much harder to do with a less accurate speaker.

 

Granted, some of these things aren't particularly useful in situations where you aren't depending a great deal on the FOH for your sound distribution (such as a smaller bar).  But even then you'll gain the benefit of a more even distribution of sound with a longer throw at lower SPL with a better chance (if patches are designed correctly) to cut through the mix.

Finally a serious attempt to answer the question asked, thank you!

And an interesting answer as well.

Do you have any idea how this even distribution of sound is achieved in a FRFF system?

[Rocco_Crocco]

I don't think an FRFR sounds better than a guitar cab. Just more versatile. The obvious example is an acoustic guitar tone. It will work better with an FRFR. What about getting your 4x12 closed back to resemble an open back Fender cab? It won't do it was well as an FRFR.

[DunedinDragon]

Finally a serious attempt to answer the question asked, thank you!

And an interesting answer as well.

Do you have any idea how this even distribution of sound is achieved in a FRFF system?

 

To be honest I'm not sure there is a single answer to that.  I think most of these manufacturers keep that type of design info pretty close to the chest as it's generally proprietary and can be a differentiator in the marketplace.  I'm assuming it's a combination of both cabinet/speaker designs as well as certain DSP elements, but that's just a guess.  I also assume the techniques vary depending on what type of design they're using such as traditional speaker versus a line array.

[shanecgriffo]

to me the frfr speakers are a bit like a blank canvas .. also they suit me when performing a small gig solo, i can send my voice and guitar (via helix) thru my voicelive touch processor and straight to some powered speakers.. easy! and sounds sweet

[cruisinon2]

It's really sad the world is more and more like this. People just don't repsect ech other's point of view and thinik the solution is to bash the person...

That's all well and good, except for one thing: The OP BEGAN this discussion with name calling, and belittling anyone whom he had pre-judged to be too dim to comprehend his mastery of the physics of sound. What exactly is supposed to endear him to me under those circumstances? You don't get to cry foul when someone calls you out for being a sanctimonious a$$.

[klangmaler]

Seems as if Parelaphostrongylus tenuis mutated recently and likes Helix nerds, too :lol:

 

Maybe we're again witnesses of the ancient, always returning clash of science and art.

Anyway:

 

If it sounds right and if it feels right, you must doing something good. 

 

Guess sometimes it's as simple as that - despite your gear and science ;)

[cruisinon2]

Seems as if Parelaphostrongylus tenuis mutated recently and likes Helix nerds, too :lol:

 

 

If it sounds right and if it feels right, you must doing something good.

 

Well clearly not, unless of course the spectrum analyzer happens to agree. Only then are you truly worthy. ;)

[Galaden]

You say "potato " and I say "potato " . . . . cab or FRFR . . . . shut up and pass the salt and the ketchup ( or is it catsup?) . . .  :P

[cruisinon2]

You say "potato " and I say "potato " . . . . cab or FRFR . . . . shut up and pass the salt and the ketchup ( or is it catsup?) . . . :P

Not until you've been properly evaluated. You may not be smart enough to be trusted with ketchup...😩

[klangmaler]

Not until you've been properly evaluated. You may not be smart enough to be trusted with ketchup...😩

 

Right:

 

https://www.facebook.com/catch.up.hamburg/

 

Q.E.D.

[gunpointmetal]

I kind think its funny to argue against FRFR by suggesting using guitar speakers that are as close to it as possible just to avoid using a crossover or HP/LP filtering.

[cruisinon2]

I kind think its funny to argue against FRFR by suggesting using guitar speakers that are as close to it as possible just to avoid using a crossover or HP/LP filtering.

You're just not smart enough to get it...

 

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh. ;)

[taylorbeats]

If all you are going to do is play electric guitar through a modeler than guitar speakers are probably the way to go.  I chose FRFR because on occasion I play keys, I may play a backing track, I may play percussion, I may play a wedding with another singer, i may play a Variax acoustic or JTV acoustic model, I may play bass, I may play guitar synth... all through the modeler.  Versatility requires a jack of all trades--FRFR.

 

No disagreement with the OP at all. 

[gunpointmetal]

Guitar cabs are inconsistent-sounding depending on the acoustic space, much more than a PA speaker is. One of my biggest problems that I experienced with a guitar cab is that what sounds awesome in my practice space, will sound small or boxy in a different room, completely watering down the playing experience. With my powered PA cabs, the sound I hear at rehearsal is the sound I hear on stage, pretty much independent of the room.

 

Ultimately you have to use what works for you, as there is no "right" answer.

 

The idea with modeling for me is to have a lighter, more compact, more versatile, more consistent, and more controllable sound that behaves in the way I expect every time I plug into it. I've played Mesa Thiele cabs, I've used a Power Engine, I've had 4x12s loaded with high-wattage guitar speakers, and even the PE (which is designed for modeling) doesn't maintain its tone through different rooms. 

[DunedinDragon]

Guitar cabs are inconsistent-sounding depending on the acoustic space, much more than a PA speaker is. One of my biggest problems that I experienced with a guitar cab is that what sounds awesome in my practice space, will sound small or boxy in a different room, completely watering down the playing experience. With my powered PA cabs, the sound I hear at rehearsal is the sound I hear on stage, pretty much independent of the room.

 

Ultimately you have to use what works for you, as there is no "right" answer.

 

The idea with modeling for me is to have a lighter, more compact, more versatile, more consistent, and more controllable sound that behaves in the way I expect every time I plug into it. I've played Mesa Thiele cabs, I've used a Power Engine, I've had 4x12s loaded with high-wattage guitar speakers, and even the PE (which is designed for modeling) doesn't maintain its tone through different rooms. 

 

 

I think this is the one benefit I derived from going to a FRFR setup that I never predicted.  Having exactly the same sound whether it be at my house, at the rehearsal space, or at the performance.  If there is any major discrepency in room acoustics I can easily adjust global parameters one time and everything sounds consistent.  Who'da thought???

[cruisinon2]

Guitar cabs are inconsistent-sounding depending on the acoustic space, much more than a PA speaker is. One of my biggest problems that I experienced with a guitar cab is that what sounds awesome in my practice space, will sound small or boxy in a different room, completely watering down the playing experience. With my powered PA cabs, the sound I hear at rehearsal is the sound I hear on stage, pretty much independent of the room.

 

Ultimately you have to use what works for you, as there is no "right" answer.

 

The idea with modeling for me is to have a lighter, more compact, more versatile, more consistent, and more controllable sound that behaves in the way I expect every time I plug into it. I've played Mesa Thiele cabs, I've used a Power Engine, I've had 4x12s loaded with high-wattage guitar speakers, and even the PE (which is designed for modeling) doesn't maintain its tone through different rooms.

Amen.