glideman Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Ready for 2.30 as much as Native... both very exciting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berrdaniel Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Knowing that there are a bunch of architectural changes that went into Native so that future development can be done in tandem and at a quicker pace is exciting. Thanks for sharing that info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Knowing that there are a bunch of architectural changes that went into Native so that future development can be done in tandem and at a quicker pace is exciting. Thanks for sharing that info.Well, as a software developer I know I went this rabbit hole many times - spending awful amounts of time refactoring things so that possibe future improvements are so easy... But these improvements never happened and the time was wasted. As a Helix user I'm not sure if (or better "how much") this is the case with Helix but so far I've seen much more news about "delays happening due to faster future development" than, well, faster developments. But in any case, Helix is making me happy and I'm starting to need Helix Native about now (album recording starting) so it should all work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikah912 Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Well, as a software developer I know I went this rabbit hole many times - spending awful amounts of time refactoring things so that possibe future improvements are so easy... But these improvements never happened and the time was wasted. As a Helix user I'm not sure if (or better "how much") this is the case with Helix but so far I've seen much more news about "delays happening due to faster future development" than, well, faster developments. But in any case, Helix is making me happy and I'm starting to need Helix Native about now (album recording starting) so it should all work out. To be fair, there have been two major architectural developments that are months apart that have necessitated the delays. The first was Snapshots. The second is Native (and a new editor shortly thereafter). After Native, it should be relatively downhill from there. The new models for 2.3x are supposedly just about done and sitting around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 To be fair, there have been two major architectural developments that are months apart that have necessitated the delays. The first was Snapshots. The second is Native (and a new editor shortly thereafter). After Native, it should be relatively downhill from there. The new models for 2.3x are supposedly just about done and sitting around. Wasn't there also a similar explanation why the current Helix Editor took so long? I'm not sure, just feels to me it's been 3 times so far. Anyway, in almost 2 years of Helix history there have probably never been a fast and simple "routine" update just adding new models (amps, fx...). For example when 2.20 firmware was being delayed, Digital_Igloo said that Ben already started working on 2.30 models. That was in February I think. So why haven't these models been published yet? If because of Native then the development stream is essentially single-threaded, which isn't something to write home about since different people are working on very different things. Anyway, in principle I'm not mad about it and not trying to say Line6 is doing a bad job. I'm just a bit immune to excitement some users here experience when reading "explanations" of why delays are happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicLaw Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Do not for a moment overlook that Line 6 has multiple development tracks ongoing in the Helix software arena! Aside from the current focus on Helix Native being based on the Helix Core development to consolidate the engine behind all things Helix (Software and Hardware), there has been plenty of effort regarding firmware 2.30 and the newly overhaulded Helix Editor to be released with firmware 2.30. Helix Native is currently in Beta testing and is intended to be released to be stable on the currently existing Helix firmware version 2.21, and to run on both Windows and Mac across a wide array of PC hardware configurations. Also underway are development efforts on firmware (aka Helix Core) 3.0, and the entire overhaul of the firmware, updating, backup/restore, and IR management Helix aspects! As if these are not sufficient to make most dev teams heads spin, there are also whatever Amps, Cabs, FX, Revebs, and other new features and enhancements in the pipeline of these releases. That's a massive amount of work! I'm delighted that Helix owners have been and will continue to be the beneficiaries of these enhancements and improvements -- regardless of when these arrive! If the time lines shift a month or so further along, this is of little consequence to me. Getting it right is far more important than getting it out the door! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikah912 Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Wasn't there also a similar explanation why the current Helix Editor took so long? I'm not sure, just feels to me it's been 3 times so far. Anyway, in almost 2 years of Helix history there have probably never been a fast and simple "routine" update just adding new models (amps, fx...). For example when 2.20 firmware was being delayed, Digital_Igloo said that Ben already started working on 2.30 models. That was in February I think. So why haven't these models been published yet? If because of Native then the development stream is essentially single-threaded, which isn't something to write home about since different people are working on very different things. Anyway, in principle I'm not mad about it and not trying to say Line6 is doing a bad job. I'm just a bit immune to excitement some users here experience when reading "explanations" of why delays are happening. Think about the sequence of events here, tho. Helix Native 1.0 is essentially aligned to Helix 2.21. If they release a new firmware before Helix Native, they're resetting everything to then bring the engine improvements and everything else up to parity. So, Native gets delayed even more and people get pissed off about THAT. The development is multi-threaded, which is why there is a backlog of finished models just waiting. But they're never released in a vacuum. They come with DSP changes and tweaks to fix existing issues and to make the new models possible. Those changes and tweaks must be tested, but that can only be done once there is a single firmware target across all of the platforms. The alternative to all of this is that we get piecemeal releases like Fractal does where there is a public beta for the Axe-FX, but not for the AX8. Then, the AX8 gets the latest official version, but not the Axe-FX, and so on and so forth. And they don't even have a VST plugin to code for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Think about the sequence of events here, tho. Helix Native 1.0 is essentially aligned to Helix 2.21. If they release a new firmware before Helix Native, they're resetting everything to then bring the engine improvements and everything else up to parity. So, Native gets delayed even more and people get pissed off about THAT. The development is multi-threaded, which is why there is a backlog of finished models just waiting. But they're never released in a vacuum. They come with DSP changes and tweaks to fix existing issues and to make the new models possible. Those changes and tweaks must be tested, but that can only be done once there is a single firmware target across all of the platforms. The alternative to all of this is that we get piecemeal releases like Fractal does where there is a public beta for the Axe-FX, but not for the AX8. Then, the AX8 gets the latest official version, but not the Axe-FX, and so on and so forth. And they don't even have a VST plugin to code for. Hm, if the new models are indeed complete for some time then (if I was the dev lead and the whole architecture was in a good shape) I'd merge them in and release 2.30 firmwares before starting Native beta testing and then iron out all bugs in that version and release Native with Core 2.30. I understand if they chose not to merge but then it just shows that the current architecture of Helix Core needs to be fixed first to allow smooth merging of new models while working on platform enhancements. But I understand that multiplatform development is always messy so not saying I'd be able to do it better. So again, no problem here, just the delay explanation describes "fixing" as exciting news... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fflbrgst Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 So will owners of the full PodFarm package get any kind of discount towards Helix Native? Here we've been waiting for ANY updates to PF for years, and all of a sudden we'll be as obsolete as Gearbox owners were? (I was one of those, too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilottes Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 What bugs me a bit is that the Helix is supposed to be the beast for a giging guitarist. Right? Now, I've seen an eternity go by for an editor to be ready (that I don't use). Seen an update for bass player. Now it's a Native plugin for studio that takes forever. Big plan tu redo everything so it evolves faster in the future. Please hire more ressources and pickup the pace and rethink what is important. It goes without saying what I think about ideascale. Just saying. I'm not upset at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 What bugs me a bit is that the Helix is supposed to be the beast for a giging guitarist. Right? Now, I've seen an eternity go by for an editor to be ready (that I don't use). Seen an update for bass player. Now it's a Native plugin for studio that takes forever. Big plan tu redo everything so it evolves faster in the future. Please hire more ressources and pickup the pace and rethink what is important. It goes without saying what I think about ideascale. Just saying. I'm not upset at all. The issue with something highly specialized like the sort of DSP sound design in the Helix is that there simply aren't that many people in the world who do it. Even if they want to hire someone (which I believe they do), it can take a long time to find the right person. And even if you do, it's not like they can start and necessarily jump right in... The company I work for, which also does highly specialized stuff, has the same problem. We need to hire people, but there simply aren't a ton of qualified people out there, and hiring someone just to have to train doesn't really solve the problem. It actually makes it worse in the short term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleclee Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Please hire more ressources and pickup the pace First, people are not resources. If you think of them that way, you not only dehumanize them, your concept of staffing is wrong. If you think of folks--particularly software developers--as interchangeable parts, you're in for a bumpy ride. If you hire undifferentiated parts, you'll get undifferentiated results. Second, there's a maxim in the software development that adding people to a late project only makes it later. Google "mythical man month" for more info. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilottes Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 It's absolutely true that finding the right person with the skills you need is sometime next to impossible. I've done software development and it does'nt take much to run into snags and all but that is a different discussion. As for ressources I was using the term as "natural ressources" as a good thing not as a "number of bodies". What I meant also is you can prioritize directions and not have every dev subgroup waalk at the same pace. On one side I have the Helix hardware that is the "halo product" and on the other hand you have Native, which I presume run on Intel CPU. That is where I get a bit mixed up. Theoretically, can they be made to sound the same? Probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 It's absolutely true that finding the right person with the skills you need is sometime next to impossible. I've done software development and it does'nt take much to run into snags and all but that is a different discussion. As for ressources I was using the term as "natural ressources" as a good thing not as a "number of bodies". What I meant also is you can prioritize directions and not have every dev subgroup waalk at the same pace. On one side I have the Helix hardware that is the "halo product" and on the other hand you have Native, which I presume run on Intel CPU. That is where I get a bit mixed up. Theoretically they be made to sound the same? Probably not. Native and the hardware sound identical to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digital_Igloo Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Please hire more resources and pickup the pace... Line 6 has been known to hire additional temp testers the few months before a big launch and this is no exception. Unfortunately, testing something as deep as Helix Native—which has over 200 models, so it's not like testing a single UA or Waves plugin—within a bunch of DAWs across a bunch of versions of Mac OS and Windows (running different driver schemes) is a herculean effort. Testing a piece of hardware like Helix is a cake walk in comparison. Anyone with development experience knows that adding and training more engineers—especially at the eleventh hour—would just slow things down to a crawl. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilottes Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Line 6 has been known to hire additional temp testers the few months before a big launch and this is no exception. Unfortunately, testing something as deep as Helix Native—which has over 200 models, so it's not like testing a single UA or Waves plugin—within a bunch of DAWs across a bunch of versions of Mac OS and Windows (running different driver schemes) is a herculean effort. Testing a piece of hardware like Helix is a cake walk in comparison. Anyone with development experience knows that adding and training more engineers—especially at the eleventh hour—would just slow things down to a crawl. No debate there. But I'm still disapointed that the Helix evolution is plague by delays coming from left and rigtht. Decisions are made and we have to live with them. But I find the focus to be somewhat lost. I have a great audio interface with the Helix. I can do whatever I want in a DAW. I don't need anything else really except for a librarian to backup the presets. Got some stability issues now and then, still. That is where its important to me. 18 month in and I have now some killer tones that are better than what I ever had so no complaints. As the HELIX matures we will be spoiled and that is what we know that lies in out future but can't seems to get any closer. ... Thanks DI for pitching in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHamm Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Native and the hardware sound identical to me... They sound identical here, too. Exactly the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpointmetal Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Somebody hook me up with the Beta team! lol, I mean how many guys do you have running this stuff through 8/9 string guitars tuned down to bowel rumbling territory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brue58ski Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Somebody hook me up with the Beta team! lol, I mean how many guys do you have running this stuff through 8/9 string guitars tuned down to bowel rumbling territory? So that's what that rumble was. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpointmetal Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 probably Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted July 28, 2017 Author Share Posted July 28, 2017 hey sound identical here, too. Exactly the same. That's nice to read. But tell me, is there a tuner for the editor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brue58ski Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 That's nice to read. But tell me, is there a tuner for the editor? I love editing tuners...I mean...uh...Ain't anyone fixed this tuner yet? (I just love cracking myself up). Sorry, I'm tired but I'm posting this anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHamm Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 That's nice to read. But tell me, is there a tuner for the editor? Nope. I don't need one as my DAW has one built in and I also have the TC tuner plug-in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbbaker Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I must say that it has been a treat to follow all the posts on this topic. I have to give Line6 a high 5 for having the B_lls to post a projected release date on the Native software. Having been involved in several software development projects, I know what it takes to bring a program like this to market! All I learned about "release dates" can be traced back to a little 7 year old girl and an 8 year old boy. The story goes like this . . . . . A little 8 year old boy ran up to the sweet 7 year old smoking girl and whispered into her ear . . . " I want , what I want, when I want it!" . . . .. The little girl proceeded to punch him directly in the nose, and whispered into his ear . . . . . "You'll get, what I got, when I get it!" 'nuff said .. . . this one's for you DI!!! Bo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted July 29, 2017 Author Share Posted July 29, 2017 I love editing tuners...I mean...uh...Ain't anyone fixed this tuner yet? (I just love cracking myself up). Sorry, I'm tired but I'm posting this anyway. I love tuning editors as well. Here's some glue (for the cracks) :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted July 29, 2017 Author Share Posted July 29, 2017 Nope. I don't need one as my DAW has one built in and I also have the TC tuner plug-in. Well, I use the current editor and want a tuner included in it, because it stops me from having to get up and move away from my recording console. Yes, its a minor thing but helps the workflow. And so I do hope that Native has a tuner built in as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyz Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 I'll echo the sentiment one more time from above... Hardware and Native sound pretty much identical to me as well (transporting the same patch back and forth)! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotthotter Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 I love my Helix, and i am sure everyone that has one will say the same!? I was however looking into both Kemper and the Axe FX but for the conveniences of the Helix I went that route, and i am glad i did! However, to see all the hype about native and a new editor blah blah blah...i have to sneer a little when i see and hear how many updates and amp, cab, and effects updates the others get....That being said, I have all the faith in the world of Line 6 and its staff, testers and musicians helping this to be our future musical tools will take some time to get it to pristine, I just want to be able to talk trash back in the other forums when it comes to the Helix bashing for those things not being resolved as of today! Please all I am saying is give us something to boast about sans wipe the other pedals(Axefx Kemper) out for a bit, or possibly for always??? Line 6 you do have competition out there, lets let them know that you are the rule for which all is measured....Take your time but kill it when its delivered whenever that may be or how ever long ou guys need to make that dream a reality! Forgive my first post here just anxious to have some of my friends drool just a bit more, please help! Thank you Line 6 and to all in the forums, for the heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted August 5, 2017 Author Share Posted August 5, 2017 Hardware and Native sound pretty much identical to me as well (transporting the same patch back and forth)! What kind of audio interface are you guys using that helps Native software sound like Helix? Surely it's not a soundblaster card? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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