ozbadman Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 My opnion is the same of the article. In the existing systems there are pros and cons because they are made before the modelling amp technology you have to adapt something already made for other purposes to the new technology. Now the market needs a product made specially for modelling. it's not only me. I'm pointing the moon and you're watching my index finger. It's a general discussion. That's not what the article said at all. It did not say the market needs something specific for modelling, it said even a perfect FRFR system cannot produce an "amp in the room" feeling, because the signal going into the amp cannot yet produce the complexities of an amp in the room. They are not saying they need a better amp, they are saying they need better modelling before an FRFR system can make guitarists totally happy. I don't know where you're pointing. That's why I asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpointmetal Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 No matter how good your FRFR system is its not going to sound like "amp in a room" tone until the microphone is taken out of the equation. My experience has been that what most guys like about the "amp in the room" sound is the tangible response between the speaker and guitar, which I've never had a problem with since the HD500X. But, most of those guys also have no idea what they're amp actually sounds like because they dial it in with their head 3' above the speaker and off-axis, shredding the front row's ears with beaming treble. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 To truly recreate a totally authentic guitar and cab experience we need a quantum modeler and quantum FRFR that actually recreates the the positions of all particles in the room at the moment of the creation of the sound, right down to the quark or beyond. Anyone working on one of those? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozbadman Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 To truly recreate a totally authentic guitar and cab experience we need is a quantum modeler and quantum FRFR that actually recreates the the positions of all particles in the room at the moment of the creation of the sound, right down to the quark or beyond. Anyone working on one of those? :D Elon Musk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Elon Musk? Can't wait for my new Tesla guitar modeler! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revans Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I love the idea of the Firehawk 1500. I wonder if a Firehawk 1500 upgraded to Helix modeling and a Helix floor controller is in the cards. I'd buy one. Vote: http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Firehawk-Helix/805685-23508 Meanwhile, the Firehawk 1500 is probably the best option amplifying Helix in stereo while looking like a normal guitar amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncann Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 To truly recreate a totally authentic guitar and cab experience we need a quantum modeler and quantum FRFR that actually recreates the the positions of all particles in the room at the moment of the creation of the sound, right down to the quark or beyond. Anyone working on one of those? :D Ha. If something like that actually existed, I can think of tons of things such technology could be better used for than modeling, for real and in real space, an amp and cab in the room. For example, why go through the hassle of picking up your guitar to play it anymore? Just model, for real, the experience of picking up your guitar and playing it, because before you've modeled this experience, you've modeled, for real, you're own self; not a clone, but actually you. Wait a minute, has reality just changed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Ha. If something like that actually existed, I can think of tons of things such technology could be better used for than modeling, for real and in real space, an amp and cab in the room. For example, why go through the hassle of picking up your guitar to play it anymore? Just model, for real, the experience of picking up your guitar and playing it, because before you've modeled this experience, you've modeled, for real, you're own self; not a clone, but actually you. Wait a minute, has reality just changed? Chuckle, yes, my new band just quantum generates Hendrix and Jerry Garcia doing a duet from our control room :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digital_Igloo Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 If one says: "Helix through a full range system doesn't sound or feel exactly like a tube amp. Modeling still has a way to go." they might as well be saying: "When I crank a 24-bit/192kHz recording of my girlfriend's voice through my $49 desktop speakers with broken 4-inch woofers in my cement block basement, it sounds and feels nothing like when she's actually whispering in my ear at the park. Digital recording still has a way to go." 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Btw, no disrespect intended, this has been an enlightening conversation on FRFR and IR technology and the current state of the art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 No matter how good your FRFR system is its not going to sound like "amp in a room" tone until the microphone is taken out of the equation. My experience has been that what most guys like about the "amp in the room" sound is the tangible response between the speaker and guitar, which I've never had a problem with since the HD500X. But, most of those guys also have no idea what they're amp actually sounds like because they dial it in with their head 3' above the speaker and off-axis, shredding the front row's ears with beaming treble. Lol...very true. I don't get the dilemma, honestly. Why go FRFR if you're just gonna turn around and undo what it's designed for, and make it sound like the rig you just ditched? Want the "amp in a room" sound? Amps and rooms are readily available. Pick one of each, and season to taste. Who buys a Ferrari so they can dump the engine from a Plymouth Reliant in it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozbadman Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Lol...very true. I don't get the dilemma, honestly. Why go FRFR if you're just gonna turn around and undo what it's designed for, and make it sound like the rig you just ditched? Want the "amp in a room" sound? Amps and rooms are readily available. Pick one of each, and season to taste. Yes, except rooms are a bit hard to carry. And come to think of it, so are amps. Thank goodness for modelling and FOH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 when I run my Helix through my DT25 into a 2X12 cab I get that whole amp in the room thing. Oh, wait, there actually is an amp in the room... :blink: ;) :D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHamm Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 ...Why go FRFR if you're just gonna turn around and undo what it's designed for, and make it sound like the rig you just ditched? Want the "amp in a room" sound? Amps and rooms are readily available. Pick one of each, and season to taste... Yup. The thing I like BEST about modeling is that there is no amp in the room. The first time a modeler comes out with the ability to totally recreate the "amp in the room"... including moving all the air that is required for that to happen... it will be at the top of my list of things not to buy. If I need an amp in the room, I buy an amp and find a room. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Yes, except rooms are a bit hard to carry. And come to think of it, so are amps. Thank goodness for modelling and FOH.Yes...I was being facetious ;). But the one thing that most seem to agree on, is that modeling isn't quite there yet for the whole "amp in a room" thing. Those who will settle for nothing but that sound and feel are not gonna be happy until it is. A dog that isn't too bright will still be loyal, and defend you to the death, but you're never gonna be able to teach him to bring you a beer. Use what you like until the tech evolves to your satisfaction. Till then, it's an exercise in futility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 The first time a modeler comes out with the ability to totally recreate the "amp in the room"... including moving all the air that is required for that to happen... it will be at the top of my list of things not to buy. I'm inclined to agree. I've never been as happy with a rig, as I am with this one. For someone who spends a lot of time playing covers, to be able to come as close as I get to reproducing this or that tone, is astounding...and it can't be done with any one "amp in a room". That's fine if you're Angus Young, and you only need the one tone that you've had for 40 years...doesn't help me, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aepoc Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Mission, Matrix, Atomic, Friedman, Line 6, and a small handful of others make FRFR speakers. Almost no one else does. Would you say the Roland KC-110 isn't FRFR? I see nothing about it CLAIMING to be, but back in the day (POD XT) I ran my XT bean through a KC keyboard amp and it sounded pretty good. I'm assuming the Helix would sound good through the KC-110. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Would you say the Roland KC-110 isn't FRFR? I see nothing about it CLAIMING to be, but back in the day (POD XT) I ran my XT bean through a KC keyboard amp and it sounded pretty good. I'm assuming the Helix would sound good through the KC-110. I think keyboard amps, with their generally wider frequency range and more uncolored sound than a guitar amp, were often used by the modeling community prior to the advent of the FRFR. I would not be surprised if there are still a bunch of folks using them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHamm Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 FRFR just means full range flat response. NO speaker is perfect in either of those cases, but in many cases, the powered wedges from companies like QSC and Yamaha and such have worked fine for this purpose for a very long time before we had them from the guys who are making them today.And I have used acoustic guitar amps and keyboard amps to monitor through before. They work great, but don't tweak to them, tweak to the PA if you possibly can. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hideout Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Maybe there should be an "ideal room" IR between the Cab Sim and the Mic Sim. Make it so that the room sound becomes more noticeable as you move the Mic away. Or just have a "Room Mic" IR with a few different rooms and make it so that you can mix in as little or as much of the "room" as you want. The Cab Sim in Digital Performer does this 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fukuri Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 For onstage I'm using a completely non FRFR solution of a Freyette power station and an orange Cab I still think it needs some glass to give it The punch to get over the drummer. I still can't get my head around the flat volume response of solid state amps even with all the Helix modelling. Don't get me wrong it sounds amazing . The best sound board I have heard (and I've just sold my FX8) but without a Valve power section it just doesn't work for me. That's probably down to my playing style and how it has developed over the last 30 years to work with the sag and dynamics of Valves However with the Freyette I get he best of both worlds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glideman Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 You just have to get enough high powered FRFR... I run a pair and can move plenty of air that feels and sounds like I have an amp on stage... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fukuri Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 It's not a volume issue its dynamics The way I traditionally set up is to run the amp until it is borderline too loud and then back off with my playing until I need to dig in (with an expression pedal to boost) Problem I have in a non valve set up is that this technique just makes everything too loud all the time If I turn it down then it doesn't punch through so much when I dig in It's hard to explain and to be honest it's an under the fingers thing more than an out front sound thing If you were in the audience having a beer you would have no idea I was struggling. I do wonder some times if we are setting up a ton of equipment to try and replicate something that is fairly easy to do (hence my other post .. Do I need the amp modelling) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fukuri Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 It's worth mentioning this is specific to me, my style and the type of music I do. I'm not saying this is for everyone The flexibility of the unit to send the same signal to different processors and different outputs opens up an incredible amount of choice. It gives us all the freedom to work out what works for us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo_Maina Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 I love the idea of the Firehawk 1500. I wonder if a Firehawk 1500 upgraded to Helix modeling and a Helix floor controller is in the cards. I'd buy one. Vote: http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Firehawk-Helix/805685-23508 Meanwhile, the Firehawk 1500 is probably the best option amplifying Helix in stereo while looking like a normal guitar amp. Nice idea but i think it will cost a lot, but it will be a killer modelling amp anyway i voted your idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digital_Igloo Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I wonder if a Firehawk 1500 upgraded to Helix modeling and a Helix floor controller is in the cards. I'd buy one. Out of curiosity, what would be the advantage of a Helix amp with Helix Control over Helix floor with a high-quality FRFR? Both systems would be around the same size and weight and have a similar setup time, but the Helix amp all but locks you into a single playback system. Not sure the world is ready for another $2000-$2500 Line 6 amp, but if enough people demand it... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Out of curiosity, what would be the advantage of a Helix amp with Helix Control over Helix floor with a high-quality FRFR? Both systems would be around the same size and weight and have a similar setup time, but the Helix amp all but locks you into a single playback system. Not sure the world is ready for another $2000-$2500 Line 6 amp, but if enough people demand it... Advantage? None that I can see...unless you really NEED it to look like a guitar amp. That seems to be of critical importance to some... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo_Maina Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 Out of curiosity, what would be the advantage of a Helix amp with Helix Control over Helix floor with a high-quality FRFR? Both systems would be around the same size and weight and have a similar setup time, but the Helix amp all but locks you into a single playback system. Not sure the world is ready for another $2000-$2500 Line 6 amp, but if enough people demand it... I told him i think it will cost a lot. I noticed you are loosing your aplomb. Do you want to bet that soon or later you will do a cab or similar to amp Helix properly? Not something like an esoteric amp system $$$, something pratical compact and that looks like standard old style cab because guitarist are very very conservative. The best cab ever created? No but something decent. The majority who bought Helix aren't professional they use to play in pubs with no P.A. or with a bad P.A. with microscopic stage and they rehearse in cellars or basement. I'm one of them. So don't think big (and expensive) but practical and effective (and possibly cheap). The disquisition about what is a real FRFR, is nice but it's academic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digital_Igloo Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I noticed you are loosing your aplomb. Do you want to bet that soon or later you will do a cab or similar to amp Helix properly? Not something like an esoteric amp system $$$, something practical compact and that looks like standard old style cab because guitarist are very very conservative. The best cab ever created? No but something decent. The majority who bought Helix aren't professional they use to play in pubs with no P.A. or with a bad P.A. with microscopic stage and they rehearse in cellars or basement. I'm one of them. So don't think big (and expensive) but practical and effective (and possibly cheap). Losing aplomb or simply understanding the market? If one is looking for a cheap ($300-500?) playback system, there are lots of boxes that look the part and sound relatively decent on microscopic stages and in rehearsal rooms. If one is looking for a full range playback system that looks the part and wouldn't be the obvious weak link with Helix and other high end modelers, there's Firehawk 1500 and excellent options from Mission, Matrix, Atomic, and Friedman. I've mentioned this many times before, but the market for FRFR speakers is TINY compared to the market for amps with tones. It'd be unspeakably foolish for us to waste precious time and resources developing an $899 model-free Firehawk just because some people can't wrap their head around bypassing the $999 Firehawk 1500's modeling. It'd be even more foolish for us to desperately try to hit a $499 price point when the result could never properly reproduce Helix's sound and feel. It's the same reason you don't put $50 tires on a Bugatti. Besides, Line 6 has zero interest in playing "me too," especially when the only advantage might be that the modeler and speaker logos match. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozbadman Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 It's the same reason you don't put $50 tires on a Bugatti. Sadly, I'll probably never know if that is true or not. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozbadman Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I told him i think it will cost a lot. I noticed you are loosing your aplomb. Do you want to bet that soon or later you will do a cab or similar to amp Helix properly? Not something like an esoteric amp system $$$, something pratical compact and that looks like standard old style cab because guitarist are very very conservative. The best cab ever created? No but something decent. The majority who bought Helix aren't professional they use to play in pubs with no P.A. or with a bad P.A. with microscopic stage and they rehearse in cellars or basement. I'm one of them. So don't think big (and expensive) but practical and effective (and possibly cheap). The disquisition about what is a real FRFR, is nice but it's academic. Honestly, I am still trying to work out what it is you think you want. Maybe you don't understand what an FRFR system is? The proper way to amp HELIX is with an FRFR system, end of story. That's the point of the FRFR system, and the HELIX amp models. If you just want effects, then use any amp you want, but if you're going to use the amp models, the intended way to use them is with the best FRFR system you can. Now, you may get some great sounds from other amps, but they won't be modeled sounds of the originals, they'll be their own thing. So your idea of "a modelling amp that matches the HELIX" makes no sense. The best amp that makes the HELIX sound the way it is intended to, is a perfect FRFR system, not a "matched amp". So, as I say, I really don't understand what you are trying to ask for. The modelling is already in the HELIX, we just need a flat response amp to reproduce the models the way they are intended to sound. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 If one is looking for a full range playback system that looks the part and wouldn't be the obvious weak link with Helix and other high end modelers, there's Firehawk 1500 and excellent options from Mission, Matrix, Atomic, and Friedman. I think the reluctance or perhaps disappointment is that the 1500 doesn't have the same capability to accept the Helix signal by L6 link and do the whole wet/dry/wet thing the way the built in Firehawk stuff does. Just like the with the DT, the integration with the flagship processor isn't there. I understand what you said about the cost of integration and as with the DT there is a workaround. I'm just stating the feeling from this side of the counter... I'm also looking out for a used Vetta II at the right price with the digital input at least for stereo even if not true FRFR but as with the 1500 it's still 60lbs. However, I recognize that a lot of this is just G.A.S. since my current rig does what I need pretty damn well... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileskb Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I'm just going to throw this out there. I stumbled upon my setup somewhat by accident and it might get the creative juices of others flowing. I started with Rockman gear so playing through "full range" cabs is not new to me. In the 90's I had a custom Genz Benz cab built. I have mentioned it on here before. The short story is simply that it is a Limted Range Flat Response 2 x 12 cab. The EVM Series II 12L's cover the guitar range with rolloff below 80hz and above 7K, but the range from 80hz to 7K is flat. I'm currently driving it with a QSC 1100 (50 watts per channel) amp. I get the "in the room" feel because they are real 12' speakers in the guitar range, but I'm also getting really good "simulations" as... well... they are real 12" speakers in the guitar range... and they really don't seem to color the sound. The cabinet is ported so I can kick the bottom a bit. It sounds as least as good as playing through a pair of QSC K12's, but as noted, I don't get the "feel" with the K12's just the brilliantly accurate tone. WIth the Genz Benz cab... I get the feel too. The biggest contributor to the "amp in the room" feel is that guitar speakers are designed to move air. I don't know the scientific way to describe it, but my favorite example is when my Bass player would use his Hartke 4 x 10 vs his Acoustic Refrigerator... It was a huge reflex cabinet with an amp in the bottom of it. The Hartke sounded fantastic... but if the stage wasn't elevated enough.. as soon as people got in front of the stage, that's where the sound died. The huge reflex cab tho... I bet we could put it in the parking lot and it would still fill a small venue with bass no matter how many people were crammed in. You could actually FEEL the air being pushed out. On the Hartke, it was loud, but the cones barely moved. I'm sure a more engineering type could explain this better, but I believe that "amp in the room" part is due in large to how guitar speakers are designed as much as the range they can reproduce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archisc Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Helix is supposed to emulate the cabs... 1x12, 2x12, 4x12 etc. If you have a cab let say 2x12... than u still have to emulate 1x12, 4x12 etc..... However, I really like Line 6 to come up with a setting profile for stage source... .. since Line 6 produce stagesource, it might be able to produce the perfect settings.. instead of us trying to eq and do bunch of things.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo_Maina Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 Losing aplomb or simply understanding the market? If one is looking for a cheap ($300-500?) playback system, there are lots of boxes that look the part and sound relatively decent on microscopic stages and in rehearsal rooms. If one is looking for a full range playback system that looks the part and wouldn't be the obvious weak link with Helix and other high end modelers, there's Firehawk 1500 and excellent options from Mission, Matrix, Atomic, and Friedman. I've mentioned this many times before, but the market for FRFR speakers is TINY compared to the market for amps with tones. It'd be unspeakably foolish for us to waste precious time and resources developing an $899 model-free Firehawk just because some people can't wrap their head around bypassing the $999 Firehawk 1500's modeling. It'd be even more foolish for us to desperately try to hit a $499 price point when the result could never properly reproduce Helix's sound and feel. It's the same reason you don't put $50 tires on a Bugatti. Besides, Line 6 has zero interest in playing "me too," especially when the only advantage might be that the modeler and speaker logos match. So Helix=Bugatti. So I bought a Bugatti Ferrari is 100 times better.😊 Even a Lamborghini. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digital_Igloo Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I think the reluctance or perhaps disappointment is that the 1500 doesn't have the same capability to accept the Helix signal by L6 link and do the whole wet/dry/wet thing the way the built in Firehawk stuff does. Just like the with the DT, the integration with the flagship processor isn't there. We still want to add some level of DT support to Helix, but there's no way it's going to work like HD500X. It can't; they're completely different engines. The amount of work that went into POD HD/DT integration was staggering (documenting it all was one of the first things I did at Line 6), and the number of people who chained more than one DT from POD could probably be counted on one hand. I honestly don't think a single user on the planet connected three DTs for wet-dry-wet, although we designed for it. Unless you're chaining multiple speakers/amps, there's almost no advantage to L6 LINK on full-range systems. Since we don't expect anyone to use two Firehawk 1500s (as one amp is already stereo wet-dry-wet), L6 LINK would be a complete waste on that product. Or think of it this way: The guys who could've spent a month adding L6 LINK to Firehawk 1500 can now spend a month making Helix better. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digital_Igloo Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 So Helix=Bugatti. So I bought a Bugatti Ferrari is 100 times better. Even a Lamborghini. I was going to change it to Audi R8 or even a Tesla P85, but thought "m'eh. No one's gonna notice." So, so mistaken. :D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHamm Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Or think of it this way: The guys who could've spent a month adding L6 LINK to Firehawk 1500 can now spend a month making Helix better. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelForbin Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 ..the number of people who chained more than one DT from POD could probably be counted on one hand. I honestly don't think a single user on the planet connected three DTs for wet-dry-wet, although we designed for it. Lol, for the record, I did three DT wet-dry-wet! Had two DT25 combos for the stereo wet, and a DT25 head+ cab for the center dry. Sounded great!:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Unless you're chaining multiple speakers/amps, there's almost no advantage to L6 LINK on full-range systems. Since we don't expect anyone to use two Firehawk 1500s (as one amp is already stereo wet-dry-wet), L6 LINK would be a complete waste on that product. so does that mean L6link has run its course as a standard for digital connectivity across the Line 6 product spectrum? No future Stagescape integration either then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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