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shanecgriffo
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I'm persistently annoyed at my own playing. Every so often, though, somewhat rare moments, I do something that elicits my internal voice to say wtf, how'd  I do that. The goal is to have that happen every time the guitar is picked up and played.

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Show me a musician who's consistently pleased with his/her own performance, and I'll show you an insufferable a$$hole.

 

I resent that (or, I would if it applied to me).

 

I thought I was an ok guitarist until I realized that I couldn't replicate the tone from the Police song.

 

Now I realize I'm a rank "amateur".

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Take some lessons, I played for 15 years but then in the last year I learned more than I ever have from lessons.  Cleaned up bad habits, learned what a real practice schedule is.  My playing has sky rocketed from my daily routines. 

 

Can you elaborate on that? I kinda rebooted and started from scratch two years ago in an attempt to clean up my playing and rectify especially my bad picking hand technique. Finally after two years I'm starting to see real improvements. Still I'm not sure if my practice schedule is optimal or if I'm missing out on something.

 

A simple thing like how long a practice session should last, for example? How long should breaks between session last? How much tension is ok in the picking hand? To little tension and I lose control and to much just kills everything. I do a a lot of 3 and 4 notes per string exercises, string skipping exercises and speed burst exercises on a daily basis.

 

How about alternate picking vs. economy picking. i would like to spend some time learning economy picking but should I get my alternate picking up to a certain level before taking on economy picking?

 

So what are your daily routines? What has helped you the most?

 

 

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..in my own playing ability sometimes ;-)

 

It comes with the territory and I think that's extremely normal. The more you know and have accomplished, the more you realize there is to know and accomplish. Even when everybody tells you how great you are, only you know where you're at and how far it is from where you want to be. In my opinion, Allan Holdsworth is the most accomplished electric guitar player in the world and if you've ever read an interview with him, you'll keep hearing how insecure he is and how completely unsatisfied he is with his playing. 

 

All I can say is keep pushing forward, concentrate on fixing what you think your weak spots are, listen to your heroes and try to absorb what you can from them (without actually emulating them) and practice, practice, practice. And most importantly, accept that you're never going to be completely satisfied with your playing, but you can be more satisfied than you are currently.

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A simple thing like how long a practice session should last, for example? How long should breaks between session last? How much tension is ok in the picking hand? To little tension and I lose control and to much just kills everything. I do a a lot of 3 and 4 notes per string exercises, string skipping exercises and speed burst exercises on a daily basis.

 

How about alternate picking vs. economy picking. i would like to spend some time learning economy picking but should I get my alternate picking up to a certain level before taking on economy picking?

 

So what are your daily routines? What has helped you the most?

 

I know you're responding to someone else, but here are some thoughts:

 

There are many variables, based on you as a person, to take into account to answer some of these questions, and therefore are pretty much unanswerable to anyone but yourself. Is guitar playing something you have to find time to do, time that may not even be guaranteed? Or is it something you have the freedom to do at will? What exactly are you playing for a given session? Is it physically demanding? If it is, is your energy level sufficient to make any progress? Are your sessions interruption free? Is your current emotional state holding you back? I'm sure there are lots more questions of this nature, but these come to mind off the top of my head.

 

For info about technique, picking in particular, I would echo what BillBee mentioned above about Troy Grady. Can be very helpful. But in the end, even regarding technique, you have to find what's most comfortable for you, otherwise you're fighting against yourself and your natural tendencies. But do try also to find when those natural tendencies are counterproductive, so you can correct for them.

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It comes with the territory and I think that's extremely normal. The more you know and have accomplished, the more you realize there is to know and accomplish. Even when everybody tells you how great you are, only you know where you're at and how far it is from where you want to be. In my opinion, Allan Holdsworth is the most accomplished electric guitar player in the world and if you've ever read an interview with him, you'll keep hearing how insecure he is and how completely unsatisfied he is with his playing. 

 

All I can say is keep pushing forward, concentrate on fixing what you think your weak spots are, listen to your heroes and try to absorb what you can from them (without actually emulating them) and practice, practice, practice. And most importantly, accept that you're never going to be completely satisfied with your playing, but you can be more satisfied than you are currently.

 

 

Thanks for your reply. I understand what you are trying to shed light on. And yes I've never been satisfied with my playing. I threw away my guitar for 15 years when I hit a brick wall I just couldn't break through no matter what. 15 years later and a lot wiser I guess i picked up my guitar and the first thing i did was to try to understand what was wrong with my old technique. I didn't want to go down the same road again. But sometimes I just cant help wondering if what I'm doing is good or not so good.

 

Watching Allan Holdsworth, Guthrie Govan and the likes is certainly very inspiring and teaches you a thing or two btw. I agree.

 

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Troy Grady - Master of Mechanics: For picking it is a masterclass.

^^THIS^^

 

I stumbled on this guy's youtube channel a couple of years ago. Helped me clean up 25 years of miserable right hand technique. I had grown accustomed to relying on legato playing with lots of gain because my picking was frankly, awful....well maybe not "awful", but it was certainly a weak spot.

 

I was also surprised at how much the picks I was using for a million years (Jazz III's) were contributing to my sh*tty picking on fast runs. I now use a handful of polished stone picks from a few different sources, but these are my favorite:

 

https://stoneworkspicks.com/

 

The beveled edges are so much smoother than whatever plastic(s) most picks are made from, they glide across the strings rather effortlessly...and they last damn near forever. I still have the first one I bought, almost 2 years ago. Hardly has a mark on it.

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I know you're responding to someone else, but here are some thoughts:

 

There are many variables, based on you as a person, to take into account to answer some of these questions, and therefore are pretty much unanswerable to anyone but yourself. Is guitar playing something you have to find time to do, time that may not even be guaranteed? Or is it something you have the freedom to do at will? What exactly are you playing for a given session? Is it physically demanding? If it is, is your energy level sufficient to make any progress? Are your sessions interruption free? Is your current emotional state holding you back? I'm sure there are lots more questions of this nature, but these come to mind off the top of my head.

 

For info about technique, picking in particular, I would echo what BillBee mentioned above about Troy Grady. Can be very helpful. But in the end, even regarding technique, you have to find what's most comfortable for you, otherwise you're fighting against yourself and your natural tendencies. But do try also to find when those natural tendencies are counterproductive, so you can correct for them.

 

Thanks for your reply. Actually I have no problem finding the time to practice on a daily basis. One and half to two hours is normal for me. I have my default routines including simple picking hand only exercises plus 3 and 4 notes per string exercises (scales) plus string skipping exercises. I do them every day for about an hour or so. Then i move on to some more musical stuff and do that for an hour or so. I try to do different musical stuff every day but sometimes i just dive into to the same stuff for weeks.

 

I did watch Troy Grady's series on "cracking the code" - it helped me realize that I was on the right track regarding my picking hand technique. But I'm still not sure if it's spot on unfortunately.  I'll certainly have a go at the "Master of Mechanics"

 

Regarding technique and being comfortable with it you are absolutely right. For weeks I searched the internet looking for some kind of valid explanation on thumb positioning. They all seemed to echo the same message: keep your thumb behind the neck and so fort. But for me it just made no sense to position my thumb like on the countless youtube videos. I stiffened and cramped. A week ago I just gave up all that "classic thumb position" mumble jumble and started to move my thumb to a comfortable position as I moved back and forth on the neck. The end result may be bad technique but for me it works. Now I position my thumb the "classic" way when playing on the low part of the neck and the further I move up the neck my thumb starts to go over the top of the neck. I hope i t makes sense? As you pointed out: play your guitar in a way thats comfortable for you.

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^^THIS^^

 

I stumbled on this guy's youtube channel a couple of years ago. Helped me clean up 25 years of miserable right hand technique. I had grown accustomed to relying on legato playing with lots of gain because my picking was frankly, awful....well maybe not "awful", but it was certainly a weak spot.

 

I was also surprised at how much the picks I was using for a million years (Jazz III's) were contributing to my sh*tty picking on fast runs. I now use a handful of polished stone picks from a few different sources, but these are my favorite:

 

https://stoneworkspicks.com/

 

The beveled edges are so much smoother than whatever plastic(s) most picks are made from, they glide across the strings rather effortlessly...and they last damn near forever. I still have the first one I bought, almost 2 years ago. Hardly has a mark on it.

 

Funny thing is that just recently I stopped using the Jazz III's. I found some petrucci picks that gives me way more control. Or at least I think so. I think i'll give the stoneworks a try. Can you point out any particular picks?

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Steve Morse.Study everything that guy does and I guarantee you will get better.Also start playing guitar synthesizer that really requires perfect technique.

 

Steve Morse? Never heard of him  :wacko: By guitar synthesizer do you mean like using the helix synth stuff? That's really a new angle. I guess the synth sound could maybe reveals any imperfection in your right/left hand coordination/synchronization?

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Thanks for your reply. I understand what you are trying to shed light on. And yes I've never been satisfied with my playing. I threw away my guitar for 15 years when I hit a brick wall I just couldn't break through no matter what. 15 years later and a lot wiser I guess i picked up my guitar and the first thing i did was to try to understand what was wrong with my old technique. I didn't want to go down the same road again. But sometimes I just cant help wondering if what I'm doing is good or not so good.

 

Watching Allan Holdsworth, Guthrie Govan and the likes is certainly very inspiring and teaches you a thing or two btw. I agree.

 

So much of it depends on your personal experience. My only frame of reference is my own, so bear with me if this seems a little self indulgent...

 

I took lessons for about a year and a half, between the ages of 10 and 11, but in retrospect, my teacher was terrible. He paid no attention to my picking and the way he "taught" me to read music was by giving me a couple of tunes and telling me to play them for him at the next lesson. Being a crafty little brat, the first thing I would do when I got home was to give the music to my mom, who was a hobby pianist and ask her to play it for me. I always had a pretty good ear (though I developed it more with "in-the-field" experience) and I would quickly learn the tunes by ear. My mom didn't know what I was up to, she was just happy to have something new to play. So I'd go to my next lesson and pretend to read the music while I was actually playing it from memory. And I had him duped for over a year; how lame is that?! When he finally figured it out, he gave me 2 weeks to get it together and of course I didn't. So he dropped me. I never took another lesson again and my parents figured music was just a passing fancy that I'd soon abandon, but I was determined and decided to teach myself.

 

The thing is that with no guidance, I taught myself wrong, at least where proper picking technique is concerned. Many years later, I learned that the technique I used is called "economy picking." I do alternate pick when I'm playing notes on the same string, but when moving from one string to the next, I use the same motion that I used on the previous note, i.e. if my last note on the G string was a downward motion, the next note on the B string would also be a downward motion. I developed some speed using that technique, but there's certain things that I can't do. By the time I discovered alternate picking, I'd already been a professional guitar player for over 20 years and I was completely set in my ways. When I tried to do all alternate picking, it was completely awkward, largely because of the way I hold a pick (my index finger is just barely bent at all). So I was at a crossroad; do I take a gigantic step backwards and possibly lose work because my playing would get much worse before it got better, or do I stick with playing the way I do and just get as proficient as I can with what I'm stuck with? I opted for the latter and reminded myself that many great players have unorthodox techniques. Wes Montgomery only used his right hand thumb. Allan Holdsworth picks about one out of every five notes he plays. Django Reinhardt burned his left hand in a fire and only had use of two fingers. All amazing players! I guess my point is about how long you've been at the technique you have and how much you'd have to compromise it to reinvent yourself. I'm never completely satisfied with my technique, but I've made the most of my limitations, at least to the best of my ability, though I'll probably always regret that I didn't learn to alternate pick when I had the opportune chance to.

 

RE: Holdsworth and Govan: In my mind, they're the most accomplished guitar players on the planet, but they're as different from each other as could be. Guthrie got where he is by listening to every guitar player under the sun and figuring out how to do what what each of them did, whereas Allan sounds like he never listened to another guitar player in his life.

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Funny thing is that just recently I stopped using the Jazz III's. I found some petrucci picks that gives me way more control. Or at least I think so. I think i'll give the stoneworks a try. Can you point out any particular picks?

His "jazz size" ones are close to the Jazz III dimensions, but available in a variety of thicknesses. Stock rotates...last time I looked he had a bunch of "jazz stubby" ones available. Those are a little smaller, and not my cup of tea.

 

See what you like...he makes the standard teardrop size too. Obviously they're a bit pricey compared to a plastic pick, but they really don't wear hardly at at, unless you really beat the daylights out of the strings. They'll last years.

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Steve Morse? Never heard of him  :wacko: By guitar synthesizer do you mean like using the helix synth stuff? That's really a new angle. I guess the synth sound could maybe reveals any imperfection in your right/left hand coordination/synchronization?

I am referring to the Roland GR33/55 etc...guitar synthesizers.Playing those things for 25 years has forced me to get rid of Chuck Berry slop and play correctly.

 

I would also highly reccomend lessons from a good classical teacher.They are the left hand masters.

 

Look up Mr Morse.I have spoken with him recently at NAMM in Anaheim and also first met him when I was only 19 at The Old Waldorf in San Francisco. Just watching him play made me better and then studying what he does and most importantly why he does it.

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Economy picking vs strict alternating picking? Here is an answer you will love: it depends. :) I look at what is to be played and what speed I can cleanly play it at. Say 2-3 string arps, if they are going to be repetitive figures I generally will sweep the 3s and economy pick the 2s - for me its safe and secure. The alternating pick direction for 2 string arps trip me at quick speeds. Thanks to Frank Gambale I do economy picking by habit (bad sometimes).

 

General scale type runs = alternating is the goal nice & crisp.

 

It can be tough trying to break bad habits but slow and steady practice will do it. I wouldn't sweat it too much everyone learns at different speeds.

 

Thankfully for me legato can cover a lot of sins. :)

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I'm persistently annoyed at my own playing. Every so often, though, somewhat rare moments, I do something that elicits my internal voice to say wtf, how'd  I do that. The goal is to have that happen every time the guitar is picked up and played.

You shouldn't. Amongst us you are the best.

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So much of it depends on your personal experience. My only frame of reference is my own, so bear with me if this seems a little self indulgent...

 

I took lessons for about a year and a half, between the ages of 10 and 11, but in retrospect, my teacher was terrible. He paid no attention to my picking and the way he "taught" me to read music was by giving me a couple of tunes and telling me to play them for him at the next lesson. Being a crafty little brat, the first thing I would do when I got home was to give the music to my mom, who was a hobby pianist and ask her to play it for me. I always had a pretty good ear (though I developed it more with "in-the-field" experience) and I would quickly learn the tunes by ear. My mom didn't know what I was up to, she was just happy to have something new to play. So I'd go to my next lesson and pretend to read the music while I was actually playing it from memory. And I had him duped for over a year; how lame is that?! When he finally figured it out, he gave me 2 weeks to get it together and of course I didn't. So he dropped me. I never took another lesson again and my parents figured music was just a passing fancy that I'd soon abandon, but I was determined and decided to teach myself.

 

The thing is that with no guidance, I taught myself wrong, at least where proper picking technique is concerned. Many years later, I learned that the technique I used is called "economy picking." I do alternate pick when I'm playing notes on the same string, but when moving from one string to the next, I use the same motion that I used on the previous note, i.e. if my last note on the G string was a downward motion, the next note on the B string would also be a downward motion. I developed some speed using that technique, but there's certain things that I can't do. By the time I discovered alternate picking, I'd already been a professional guitar player for over 20 years and I was completely set in my ways. When I tried to do all alternate picking, it was completely awkward, largely because of the way I hold a pick (my index finger is just barely bent at all). So I was at a crossroad; do I take a gigantic step backwards and possibly lose work because my playing would get much worse before it got better, or do I stick with playing the way I do and just get as proficient as I can with what I'm stuck with? I opted for the latter and reminded myself that many great players have unorthodox techniques. Wes Montgomery only used his right hand thumb. Allan Holdsworth picks about one out of every five notes he plays. Django Reinhardt burned his left hand in a fire and only had use of two fingers. All amazing players! I guess my point is about how long you've been at the technique you have and how much you'd have to compromise it to reinvent yourself. I'm never completely satisfied with my technique, but I've made the most of my limitations, at least to the best of my ability, though I'll probably always regret that I didn't learn to alternate pick when I had the opportune chance to.

 

RE: Holdsworth and Govan: In my mind, they're the most accomplished guitar players on the planet, but they're as different from each other as could be. Guthrie got where he is by listening to every guitar player under the sun and figuring out how to do what what each of them did, whereas Allan sounds like he never listened to another guitar player in his life.

 

"My mom didn't know what I was up to, she was just happy to have something new to play.": that made me smile all over my face  :) 

 

Thanks for taking the time to post such a comprehensive answer. It's much appreciated. Food for thought. And I totally understand your decision to stick with your technique - good, bad whatever. After all it's your job and correcting your technique would most likely not have made any difference for your career as a professional musician.  Many top notch guitar players are economy pickers only.

 

But unlike you I had the luxury of going back to square one without having to face any consequences at all. It all came down to my personal ambitions of becoming as good a guitar player as I possibly can with my limited talent. And my old technique, self taught by the way, was holding me back that's for sure.

 

Thanks again.

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His "jazz size" ones are close to the Jazz III dimensions, but available in a variety of thicknesses. Stock rotates...last time I looked he had a bunch of "jazz stubby" ones available. Those are a little smaller, and not my cup of tea.

 

See what you like...he makes the standard teardrop size too. Obviously they're a bit pricey compared to a plastic pick, but they really don't wear hardly at at, unless you really beat the daylights out of the strings. They'll last years.

 

The small stubby Jazz III's is collecting dust at my desk right now. I think i'll go for the teardrop size. 

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Economy picking vs strict alternating picking? Here is an answer you will love: it depends. :) I look at what is to be played and what speed I can cleanly play it at. Say 2-3 string arps, if they are going to be repetitive figures I generally will sweep the 3s and economy pick the 2s - for me its safe and secure. The alternating pick direction for 2 string arps trip me at quick speeds. Thanks to Frank Gambale I do economy picking by habit (bad sometimes).

 

General scale type runs = alternating is the goal nice & crisp.

 

It can be tough trying to break bad habits but slow and steady practice will do it. I wouldn't sweat it too much everyone learns at different speeds.

 

Thankfully for me legato can cover a lot of sins. :)

 

For me "It depends" is quite comforting. Reassuring really  :)

 

When reading your answer it reminded me of this video that i found yesterday. In the intro Jens uses a hammer when needed and a saw when that's the best fit for what's he is playing. he constantly switches between alternate, sweep and economy. So what you are saying totally makes sense. I just have to be more confident in choosing the tool thats feels right to me in the context i'm in.

 

 

Btw. I'm not into jazz but jazz pieces makes great exercises.

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The small stubby Jazz III's is collecting dust at my desk right now. I think i'll go for the teardrop size.

They're all nicely made, no matter what you size you choose...I find the thickness is what matters most anyway, rather than the size or shape. Personally, I favor the ones in the 1.5 - 2.0mm range. He lists the thickness of each one, so you can get a couple and experiment. I have 8 or 9 of them now...It's a one-man operation, near as I can tell. Once you buy something, he'll start sending you discount codes, whenever he gets a new batch ready to go. One order he threw in a bonus pick...nice guy. Periodically he gets his hands on some exotic materials...petrified wood, dinosaur bone, and the odd meteorite, lol. Cool stuff...pretty to look at even if you didn't use the thing.

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They're all nicely made, no matter what you size you choose...I find the thickness is what matters most anyway, rather than the size or shape. Personally, I favor the ones in the 1.5 - 2.0mm range. He lists the thickness of each one, so you can get a couple and experiment. I have 8 or 9 of them now...It's a one-man operation, near as I can tell. Once you buy something, he'll start sending you discount codes, whenever he gets a new batch ready to go. One order he threw in a bonus pick...nice guy. Periodically he gets his hands on some exotic materials...petrified wood, dinosaur bone, and the odd meteorite, lol. Cool stuff...pretty to look at even if you didn't use the thing.

 

For me the smaller picks has become a pain. Regarding the thickness I also favor picks around 1.5 - 2.0 mm in thickness.

 

For me $25 - $100 is ok.

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They're all nicely made, no matter what you size you choose...I find the thickness is what matters most anyway, rather than the size or shape. Personally, I favor the ones in the 1.5 - 2.0mm range. He lists the thickness of each one, so you can get a couple and experiment. I have 8 or 9 of them now...It's a one-man operation, near as I can tell. Once you buy something, he'll start sending you discount codes, whenever he gets a new batch ready to go. One order he threw in a bonus pick...nice guy. Periodically he gets his hands on some exotic materials...petrified wood, dinosaur bone, and the odd meteorite, lol. Cool stuff...pretty to look at even if you didn't use the thing.

 

First pick ordered. $40 for a 1.7mm Argentine Agate pick heart shaped pick. Thanx for the tip.

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The single most annoying  issue I have with my playing is that i feel much more comfortable playing low neck positions like 3 to 10 fret (scale runs). Beyond that the tension of the strings when fretted changes in a way that for me feels awkward. It slows me down considerably. Anyone else having the same experience?

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Steve Morse? Never heard of him  :wacko:

YouTube "Dixie Dregs" - although quite successful on his own, the Dregs is where he (quite justifiably) came to fame.

 

Interesting thread - lots of viewpoints, which is as it should be, as there are lots of ways to approach this whole thing.  Heard of Brock Davisson?  Worth your time to check his YouTubes - impressive skills, all the more so since he's wheelchair bound (not sure about his specific infirmity) and plays over the top of the neck.  Watching his left hand is disorienting to say the least - but he smokes that thing!

 

There's enough excellent advice above, I'll just present a different viewpoint for the sake of it.  By all means, if such matters to you, strive to improve, be "better" by some yardstick - but at the end of the day don't worry about it too much, just do it.  Precise/sloppy, articulate/slurring - whatever, it's YOUR voice on the instrument, speak with it - be yourself.

 

Quick story - personally I'd say I'm a hack technique-wise (just to establish that).  But I've been playing pro/semi-pro for many years, no one's asked me to stop yet.  I used to run a music store back east, and like most we offered lessons (not from me).  On of our teachers - we'll call him John, since that was his name - was a certified monster jazzbo, into harcore bebop.  Dude would sit behind the counter between students and just CRUSH me - talking sports or politics or whatever, but constantly flying around the neck with laser precision - deedly deedly deedly, hemidemisemiquavers 'till the cows came home. 

 

One day we're behind the counter and I can't take it anymore, ask him if he has room for another student in his schedule.  "Who do you have?", he asks. (Deedly deedly deedly) ME!, I tell him - I've been watching you beat me with a stick for the last year or so, got room to teach me?  "Why on earth do you want to play like me?" (deedly deedly deedly)  Well - there's THAT! I reply, I can't come remotely close to what you do.  "Ric (deedly deedly deedly) I've been to your shows - you're a very musical person (deedly deedly deedly), and I rarely see anyone who puts so much of themselves into what they're doing.  You may not play as fast or clean as I do (deedly deedly deedly), but you've always hit me right in the gut - it's always YOU coming thru those speakers.  I may have better technical skills, but you have the knack of grabbing people by their feelings..."

 

Stopped me dead in my tracks - gobsmacked.  This monster admired ME?

 

I withdrew my request - and play like myself to this day...

 

Just sayin...

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Great story Ric!

 

 

Re picks, I like really stiff picks, much better control. Used stone picks for a while, really big ones, don't remember who made them. Still have them, you're right, they really don't wear at all.

 

Two things got me away from those. First, they aren't great for strumming, sounds like you're bashing the crap out of the strings, because you kind of are. Second, once you hear the little tiny chirping sounds they make on the strings, transient ghost bottleneck player up near the bridge, you're screwed. Great tone, except for that.

 

I've been using Jazz IIIs for years, pretty stiff, nice tone, but not like stone. You're making me think about revisiting stone-land again.

 

 

Troy is great, definitely improved my right hand, but it only got me so far. Probably a lot of that is pure time in, don't have a ton of playing time available, and 50-something years of habits to undo. Also frankly, while I sometimes wish I could do what pretty much every 16 year old on YouTube can whip out in his sleep, I'm more interested in feel than speed really.

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