Rocco_Crocco Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Hey guy, I use my POD for live applications, and play directly through either my band's PA or my FRFR speaker. I was just wondering what best practice is for creating patches, volume wise. Since a bought my POD a few weeks ago, I generally create my tones with me sitting a couple feet away from my monitors which are at a moderate level. At rehearsal I noticed some of these patches are lacking in one area or another, while other patches sound great. It occurred to me it might be better to create patches while playing much louder through my FRFR speaker to more closely simulate the actual volume I will be playing while rehearsing. How do you guys generally do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdkane Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 For live use, I create the patches at the volume they are likley to be at when performing. It's annoying to be at the rehearsal space creating them loud but it works like a charm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphodboy Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 cdkane is right, try to create your patches at the volume level you're going to perform at. If that's not possible I have found that when creating patches at low volume levels you almost always add more bass than necessary. I usually write the patch then roll off 15-20% of the bass on the amp model. It leaves the patch lacking punch but once you turn up to gig levels the Fletcher-Munson curve makes up for it as your ears perceive more low frequencies at high volumes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianoguyy Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 First, I figure out my master volume level. I have a patch that I use when adjusting master volume. I use it while playing against something playing through my mp3 input, because the mp3 input does not get changed by the master volume. So, I match my volume to that of the pre-recorded stuff. Then, after you have that baseline established, you create patches that match that patch's volume --- or don't match, depending on what you need. *having the MV set is important initially, but perfection becomes less of a necessity after you establish the baseline patch that you compare against. Concert volume is typically best. Because it will replicate what will be heard live. But, any minute changes that may occur can be managed by a qualified sound man. --- he can even make a note of it, to inform you after the show, so that you can make changes to your patch. However, I use headphones way more than I should. This eliminates environmental factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodmoyes Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Hey guys, I've been sifting through the thousands of volume related posts regarding (in my case) the HD 500. Not just here in the Line 6 community, but I have scoured the web and have yet to find an article, post or response that really addresses the heart of the matter by offering a simple solution, Here's the thing: I'm no Newbie, nor am I a techophope. I have been a music industry professional for nearly 30 years, I have also been a complete gadget geek forever. Aside from working with some of the biggest names in music both live and in studio, I am a bona fide FX Junkie who grew up listening to and inspired by the innovators of the late 70s/early80s New Wave and Post Punk players that relied heavily on FX. I have either owned or used pretty much every major Multi FX processor introduced over the last 20 plus years. We're talking about serious old school dinosaurs here that predate the 2101 Artist Pro and the like by several years. I have had many great experiences with Boss, ART, Digitech etc. Stick prety much anything by anyone of those builders in front of me, and I can program in the sound I want blindfolded and with little effort. I've had my HD 500 for about 2.5 years, and was mainly using it at home to record direct to DAW. I love the sounds I can get, have no issues dialing in the tones I want. However, Since I started using it for live gigs wherein I fully embrace my midlife crisis by establishing a local San Diego Cover Band that plays Obscure 80's music, this infernal machine has been the bain of my existence. Seriously. I have read everything, tried everything, yet still have WILD volume discrepencies from patch to patch. At "normal" volumes, they seem fairly equal. I even went to far as place an EBOW on the G string and let it sustain at a constant level while I cycled through every patch with the outputs going to direct to interface and a DAW metering the input level while I made adjustments. I thought that was a stroke of genius, turns out it was a terrible idea. We performed at a private party this past Saturday evening that was an exceptionally high paying gig in a very exclusive community. I was sure I had everything dialed in, but at showtime, at gig volume it was an absolute trainwreck. I was mortified. I spent the entire evening looking like an amateur because I was endlessly reaching down to adjust the volume levels. I can't deal with it anymore. The wealth of virtual signal routing options and signal chain variations is a great feature for creating tones, and is an absolute nightmare cluster$^&% in terms of volume management. I've see hundreds of requests for Line 6 to address this issue, I have seen NOTHING from Line 6 that suggest they even ackowledge the issue, let alone have any intent of addressing it. This is madness. The "Global Volume" of the "Master" output level... ISN'T. Far from it. I guess it depends on "where" that hardware dial was set when the patch was created?, but from patch to patch, it "forgets" where it SHOULD be. I'm out of ideas and patience. I am 100% certain that there is a relatively easy firmware patch that could mitigate this travesty, either by bypassing certain volume parameters or creating a ture "Global" output level. The recent addition of a Global EQ proves that this is possible. BTW, that Global EQ is atrocious and quite insulting considering the fact that I never saw a lot of people asking for such a thing while at the same time practically begging for a volume solution. I won't perform another show with this thing until there is either some sort of software fix, or someone is able to explain to me how (besides locking myself in the rehearsal studio with a laptop and my amps and tinkering with this bloody device at ear bleeding volume levels) to sort this insanity. I would seriously drag my ancient Digitech RP3 or ART ECC units out of the closet and use them on stage before I go through that nonsense again. For now, it looks like the GT 8 has become my new live rig, which doesn't make me happy. I love the Line 6 tones, but the volume issue is simply unacceptable. I have other Line 6 gear that I really like, but this experience is seriously turning me off from any future purchases of their gear. Somebody help me please before I put this thing on Craigslist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealZap Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 you have to create the tones at the volume you intend to use them... then leave the master volume alone... adjust the tone using whatever controls suit your needs... and save... go through all your tones and do this without touching the master volume.... then your tones should all be level... adjust master volume at the gig to suit the venue... it's really not difficult... but i dont recommend using any kind of meter... use your ears... because its the perception of volume more than the SPL's themselves that you need to level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodmoyes Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 you have to create the tones at the volume you intend to use them... then leave the master volume alone... adjust the tone using whatever controls suit your needs... and save... go through all your tones and do this without touching the master volume.... then your tones should all be level... adjust master volume at the gig to suit the venue... it's really not difficult... but i dont recommend using any kind of meter... use your ears... because its the perception of volume more than the SPL's themselves that you need to level. I appreciate the response. We play generally large clubs/venues/outdoor events etc. WHich means, that we play quite loud more often than not. I run the outputs of my HD 500 to a PAIR of Roland JCs... yeah, that should give you an idea of volume. I don't CRANK the JCs, but even at the lower settings, they are unholy in terms of output. We rehearse in a professional studio, but not at anywhere near the volume of our shows. This is what makes it most frustrating. At rehearsal, everything sounds relatively close, and then when show time comes around I once again find myself completely caught off guard by the discrepencies. So yes, sincerely I do thank you fo rthe response. Unfortunately it just further confirms my fear that the only real work around is to program my patches at gig level. I certainly could do that, but there's not a snoball's chance in Phoenix on the 4th of July that I'm going to do that, nor should I have to. The fact that this is the case is actually a very unflattering indictment against this unit that is otherwise quite great. It's a further indictment against Yamaha/Line 6 that they can't incorporate a very basic function that has been standard on virtually EVERY Multi FX unit produced since the 1980s. Sorry, but if that is the reality, it's appaling and unacceptable. I'll gladly sacrifice some of the Gucci tonal pallete goodies and signal chain routing in favor of controllability. No electronic device has ever beaten me. First time for everything I suppose, but I surrender. It's like a bad joke and I'm not laughing. This is brutally simple stuff made mindbogglingly convoluted in the name of customization. Very disappointing. Back to BOSS for my Live Rig. I can't be ar$ed to tinker with this thing any further. Great community you have here, long time lurker. Thanks again for the insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealZap Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 sorry... it's physics... not the unit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves the only alternative is to live with the differences... because volume changes perception of sound. I appreciate the response. We play generally large clubs/venues/outdoor events etc. WHich means, that we play quite loud more often than not. I run the outputs of my HD 500 to a PAIR of Roland JCs... yeah, that should give you an idea of volume. I don't CRANK the JCs, but even at the lower settings, they are unholy in terms of output. We rehearse in a professional studio, but not at anywhere near the volume of our shows. This is what makes it most frustrating. At rehearsal, everything sounds relatively close, and then when show time comes around I once again find myself completely caught off guard by the discrepencies. So yes, sincerely I do thank you fo rthe response. Unfortunately it just further confirms my fear that the only real work around is to program my patches at gig level. I certainly could do that, but there's not a snoball's chance in Phoenix on the 4th of July that I'm going to do that, nor should I have to. The fact that this is the case is actually a very unflattering indictment against this unit that is otherwise quite great. It's a further indictment against Yamaha/Line 6 that they can't incorporate a very basic function that has been standard on virtually EVERY Multi FX unit produced since the 1980s. Sorry, but if that is the reality, it's appaling and unacceptable. I'll gladly sacrifice some of the Gucci tonal pallete goodies and signal chain routing in favor of controllability. No electronic device has ever beaten me. First time for everything I suppose, but I surrender. It's like a bad joke and I'm not laughing. This is brutally simple stuff made mindbogglingly convoluted in the name of customization. Very disappointing. Back to BOSS for my Live Rig. I can't be ar$ed to tinker with this thing any further. Great community you have here, long time lurker. Thanks again for the insight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerosol_d7 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Hope it is not the case Solution: When I save a patch, I reboot the unit to be sure. You can see the problem when comparing two patches during creation http://line6.com/support/topic/14187-patch-creation-bug/?do=findComment&comment=102154 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianoguyy Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Sound creating is always best at gig volume. And it has been for as long I can remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodmoyes Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 sorry... it's physics... not the unit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves the only alternative is to live with the differences... because volume changes perception of sound. Yeah. Thanks again. At the risk of sounding snide (not my intent), as I mentioned before, I'm no stranger to this stuff. I won't bore you all with details, but I've been a professional for a long, long time and have a pretty good wealth of knowledge and experience including a tone of engineering work on some very succesful records. I'm known as the the guy who can always get the sound in your head to come out of the speakers. Tones and their creation are gravy. I understand the physics you mentioned, but disagree... it is absolutely the device. No way around that fact. Not only is it the device, but it's an issue that I'm certain could be addressed via firmware update. If nothing else, but to help mitigate the issue. The problem is everything to do with the amount of parameters that can affect output volume. The amp model, cabinet choice, mic choice, mic placement, master (amp) volume, Channel volume, compression output level. gain amount AND output level and on and on and on. Add in the ability to allocate each item to a patch specific place in the virtual signal chain and it's a recipe for disaster. Sorry, it just is. I can fire up any one of my BOSS or Digitech units and create 20 different patches using headphones and be CERTAIN that the volumes for each will be dead on consistent. If I seriously have to plug this thing into a pair of JC 120's at gig volume to get the same result, that's just ludicrous and quite frankly terrible execution on the builder's part. Thanks agin for clarifying my worst suspicions. It doesn't make me happy, but at least I now know for sure that I'm not crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealZap Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I too have years of experience... and i think you're dead wrong.... the solution is clear and you flat out refuse to partake. (for whatever reason...) i'm not trying to insult you or in any way take away from your experience... i'm simply stating that my experience does not follow yours... why do you think car stereo's have "loudness" buttons on them? to account for this very sort of difference. you can possibly try inverting the loudness curve on your global EQ to compensate for your low volume tuned tones... and maybe simply disabling the global EQ at your gigs would get you there... i'd personally just rather do it the right way... because it's easier and more accurate than sorting out an EQ setting to kind of sort of do it... (all while making the global EQ unavailable for its truly intended purpose) Yeah. Thanks again. At the risk of sounding snide (not my intent), as I mentioned before, I'm no stranger to this stuff. I won't bore you all with details, but I've been a professional for a long, long time and have a pretty good wealth of knowledge and experience including a tone of engineering work on some very succesful records. I'm known as the the guy who can always get the sound in your head to come out of the speakers. Tones and their creation are gravy. I understand the physics you mentioned, but disagree... it is absolutely the device. No way around that fact. Not only is it the device, but it's an issue that I'm certain could be addressed via firmware update. If nothing else, but to help mitigate the issue. The problem is everything to do with the amount of parameters that can affect output volume. The amp model, cabinet choice, mic choice, mic placement, master (amp) volume, Channel volume, compression output level. gain amount AND output level and on and on and on. Add in the ability to allocate each item to a patch specific place in the virtual signal chain and it's a recipe for disaster. Sorry, it just is. I can fire up any one of my BOSS or Digitech units and create 20 different patches using headphones and be CERTAIN that the volumes for each will be dead on consistent. If I seriously have to plug this thing into a pair of JC 120's at gig volume to get the same result, that's just ludicrous and quite frankly terrible execution on the builder's part. Thanks agin for clarifying my worst suspicions. It doesn't make me happy, but at least I now know for sure that I'm not crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewolf48 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 If it helps... I am a complete amateur but what I do is to place a Tube Compressor last in the chain (100% threshold) with an external Expression pedal tied to the Output level and varying between 0 (neutral volume) and 20 (about double). At live volumes a bit of compression doesn't cause significant problems and it means that the patches have a degree of levelling applied that also copes with me changing from light to aggressive playing, and when the volume goes up as it often does during a gig I have the ability to go up with it just by rocking the pedal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodmoyes Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I too have years of experience... and i think you're dead wrong.... the solution is clear and you flat out refuse to partake. (for whatever reason...) i'm not trying to insult you or in any way take away from your experience... i'm simply stating that my experience does not follow yours... why do you think car stereo's have "loudness" buttons on them? to account for this very sort of difference. you can possibly try inverting the loudness curve on your global EQ to compensate for your low volume tuned tones... and maybe simply disabling the global EQ at your gigs would get you there... i'd personally just rather do it the right way... because it's easier and more accurate than sorting out an EQ setting to kind of sort of do it... (all while making the global EQ unavailable for its truly intended purpose) No sweat, I think I'm not making my particular gripe clear. I'm not talking about tonal differences at volume, I am very aware of how volume affects tone and the purpose of "loudness" buttons etc. My issue has zero to do with tonal inconsitencies. One of the main reason I use both the Roland Amps and Multi-FX units is because they both do a remarkable job of maintaining their tonal characteristics at varying volume levels. If I was plugging dirt pedals and an MXR into an old tube amp, I would know all too well that even a slight bump in channel or master volume could completely change the tonal dynamics. I get that. My issue is Total Final Output Volume Level. Nothing more complicated than that, just the level of the final signal leaving the unit before going to the amp. When you create one patch using a Marshall model and high gain, maybe add some extra dirt, compression etc, you have multiple points along the virtual chain that affect that final volume level and depending on their position in the chain, their affect on volume is different. So, you get your patch sounding like you want it, and at something OTHER than mind bending volume levels, you are comfortable with the level. Now, you create your next patch, maybe this time it's an AC30 or a Blackface, you don't use the amp gain, but instead use a heavy distortion modeler. Again, you painstakingly adjust the output level on the stomp box model, channel volume, master voume, maybe tweak the mixer stage a little bit to the point at which this new patch appears to be of fairly equal total volume. Then you go to rehearsal or a gig and find out that both patches still sound great in terms of tone, but are vastly different in volume. THIS is my dilemna, and I have read countless complaints from other folks suffering the same issue. As I stated before I certainly can drive a half hour to the rehearsal studio with my HD 500 and my guitar/s and a laptop (because lets face it, the editor on the unit itself is its own travesty) so I can use the visual editor, then sit there cooking my my ears while I create or tweak patches, but I have NEVER had to do that before and if that is honestly the only way around the problem, I don't have the time or inclination to go through that level of insanity and inconvenience. This stuff is supposed to make your life easier remember? The problem (as I also previously mentioned) is a simple matter of there being far too many paramaters that can affect the FINAL output volume. You definitely need some, or most of these, but not typically all of them at the same time, and trying to balance them is a nightmare. If you could "Bypass" some of these parameters, or disable the front panel knobs, or any of several other easily accomplished modifications it would make life much eaier. In fact, I would LOVE it if they simply added the ability to disable the front panel knobs completely. As you know, accidently touching ANY of them during a performance will ruin your whole day. While they are at it, they can add a disable feature to the bloody looper switch and tap/tune switch as they are too close to the volume pedal for my gigantic clodhoppers to avoid clicking when going for the volume pedal. Nothing say "Fun" quite like being on a dark stage with a guitar around your neck and a two tier keyboard stand in front of you with your FX unit directly beneath it as you try and sing and play guitar and then unkowningly activate the looper. That is awesome (Not Line 6's fault, but it would be a great feature). I finally had to create my own means to disable the looper :) Edit: PS, the idea of adding a compressor at the end of the chain only works if you aren't using any delay or reverb in particular. Otherwise, it's a sonic $417Storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panaman Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 master vol settings can not be saved. i generally leave it alone set at center 11 to 12 o clock. since edit is never synced, i send setlist after editing each patch, then save on the pod. there are actually not enough vol setting options, most effects only have mix parameters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cclement Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 My .02 cents... I just got back from rehearsal with the band for our gig Friday night. As we played each song, I would tweak the Chanel Volume to what I thought was the right level with everything else. It took only a few seconds.. sometimes at the beginning of the song, a few times in the middle. Once I had it dialed in.. I re-saved the preset. DONE. Now all I have to do is play with the MASTER volume at the gig to even it out with the band at full stage volume. It's really that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
napynap Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I found my tones leveled out much better if I used a small amount of tube compressor or fuzz before the amp in each patch. I also test them at a decent volume with a FBV shortboard and they still work well at gig volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meiannatee Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 First of all, I don’t claim to be an expert. Just sharing my experience. I think that the OP’s argument is valid, since not everyone has the luxury of creating their patches at gig volume. However, I don’t struggle as much with volume levelling and master volume control since I try to level each effect block such that the on and bypassed volumes match. Yes, even amp blocks! Most users will say that I’m doing it wrong; that an amp output should be much higher than its input. Well, if you’re a heavy effects user, you may want an otherworldly ambient tone without an amp block. Then you’re forced to use the mixer or one of the fx’s gain control to match the volume of your patches with amps. This just complicates things, and I like each block to be as modular as possible, i.e. I can swap them around without worrying about volume levelling. So, I start with all effects levelled, then tweak a little bit, like maybe giving the appropriate fx blocks a slight boost, or raising level of the overdriven amp blocks a little above clean ones. Nothing major. So far, I get fairly consistent levels at various master volume settings. Am I doing it wrong? Not sure, but it’s working so far. I think of it as something like mixing, where we mix at lower levels (-12 to -24dB) with plenty of headroom, and leave the loudness part for mastering. Well, I’m processing my tone with plenty of headroom, then using the master volume control to match whatever’s downstream. Of course this method does not apply for those who use the Pod solely for effects and use a physical amp for distortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianoguyy Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Most users will say that I’m doing it wrong; that an amp output should be much higher than its input. First, it's music - there is no wrong. Next. It's your machine, do what you want to serve what you need. Thirdly - I don't think anyone is going to say that it was wrong, especially if someone is using units outside of the pod. But, especially depending on the type of sound one is making, any time you change volume (bedroom, rehearsal, studio, gig, concert), the tone changes. It has been something that has plagued amateurs for decades - not realizing that they sound different in the garage than they do on stage. If you want to think about it mathematically (even though it isn't 100% accurate) --- If you have sounds made and at the bedroom volume, there can be a minute difference between 2 and 3 which you may not notice at low levels. But when you amplify it 10x through a pa, it now becomes the equivalent of 20 and 30. And that, is certainly something someone may notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodmoyes Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 First, it's music - there is no wrong. Next. It's your machine, do what you want to serve what you need. Thirdly - I don't think anyone is going to say that it was wrong, especially if someone is using units outside of the pod. But, especially depending on the type of sound one is making, any time you change volume (bedroom, rehearsal, studio, gig, concert), the tone changes. It has been something that has plagued amateurs for decades - not realizing that they sound different in the garage than they do on stage. If you want to think about it mathematically (even though it isn't 100% accurate) --- If you have sounds made and at the bedroom volume, there can be a minute difference between 2 and 3 which you may not notice at low levels. But when you amplify it 10x through a pa, it now becomes the equivalent of 20 and 30. And that, is certainly something someone may notice. Hmm, maybe this isn't the place for me after all. Amateur? Really? Not to be a lollipop, but I for one could not have possibly been more clear in stating that I am NOT talking about tonal dynamics changing with volume. My very simple issue is SOLELY one of absolute final output volume, and the difficulty in matching that volume across multiple patches with drastically differing models and individual affects. I have never had this issue with any other processor. Ever. And I have owned or used almost eveythingout there over the years. So as much as I appreciate all of the lessons about car stereos with loudness buttons, and basic physics for dummies etc... I'd prefer you save the condescension for for someone who deserves it. The next time I'm sitting at the console in a multimillion dollar studio next to a massively respected producer while a Grammy winning artist does their thing on the other side of the glass, and I'm getting handsomely paid for my efforts, I'll be sure to pop right over to this forum for pointers if I get stumped. Please forgive my obvious ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianoguyy Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 First, I wasn't speaking to you. I was responding to someone else's statement. Secondly, I didn't call you or him an amateur. I said that it was a problem that many amateurs don't realize exists ~~~ Bro, listen to how good I sound in my bedroom. Dude, why doesn't it sound the same in this garage. ************************************************************************************************************************* *THIS PART OF THE STATEMENT HAS BEEN DELETED BECAUSE IT WAS INAPPROPRIATE* ************************************************************************************************************************* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meiannatee Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Let’s not start pointless unrelated arguments that benefit no one. First, Pianoguyy, do you mean that if I live in an apartment (like 90% of the population in Singapore), can only rehearse in a small studio, and have 15 minutes to sound-check at a live venue where I’ve never played before, then too bad, bro? We get your point, but those of us whose situation is further from ideal, we want solutions, given our current situation. Thanks for informing us of our situation, because awareness of our problem is the first step. Rodmoyes, if you don’t mind, I’ll try to explain your point. Let’s say I’m going direct into the house PA. I set the master volume on the Pod to 50%, level all my patches, and save. Now, I have consistent loudness across my patches. Then, I select a patch, increase my master volume to 100%, and have the sound guy compensate by lowering the guitar fader, such that the loudness of this “calibration†patch is exactly the same before and after. Now, if I change patches, I would expect them to be exactly as I levelled them before, but in Rod’s case, this is not true. With loudness perception taken out of the equation, the master volume control changes the volume balance between patches. Some explanations I can think of are: - The master volume control interacts with the volumes of FX blocks in an undocumented manner - The output level is too hot for something downstream of the volume control at 100% (DA converter?), resulting in compression/limiting; sounds with lots of bass gets compressed more, resulting in uneven levels Rod, please don’t be so quick to sell your Pod. Try my method or someone else’s for a few more months? If you try levelling each FX block like mine, of course just increase your amp volume to compensate for lower input volume. If it doesn’t work, at least you tried. Now, if you wanna talk math, I’m no expert, but there seems to be some confusion between sound pressure level and sound power level. Sound Power Level This is the rate of emission of acoustical energy. It is independent of room and distance. Sound Pressure Level This is the variations of pressure above and below atmospheric pressure. Sound pressure level at a particular location depends on: - Sound power level of source - Directivity of source - Distance from source - Room volume - Room surfaces and furnishings When someone refers to “bedroom levelsâ€, it refers to the sound POWER level of a source (amp, monitors, headphones). Conversely, the Fletcher-Munson curves deal with sound PRESSURE levels. Sources with different sound power levels can create the same sound pressure level in a listener’s ear, depending on the variables above. Example: Consider a 90dB Sound Power Lvl (re 1 picowatt) “bedroom amp†source, compared to a 120dB Sound Power Lvl house loudspeaker. 120dB Sound Power Lvl is 1000 times more powerful than 90dB. For simplicity’s sake, assume a venue with no walls,100% absorbent floor, identical directivity (hemispherical/conical radiation), and no speaker distortion. A listener’s ear 1 meter away from the “bedroom amp†will experience the same sound PRESSURE level as another listener 31.62m away from the powerful house loudspeaker. In these scenarios, loudness perception across the frequency range is identical. If we place the bedroom amp in an untreated room and the loudspeaker in an outdoor arena, not changing the distance variable, the bedroom amp will sound even louder, due to room reflections. Bonus content: A thought experiment I estimate a pair of really loud headphones to be operating at 20-30dB sound power lvl (re 1 picowatt), which is around the sound power level of rustling leaves and a soft whisper. This puts the headphones 1-10 million times less powerful than the 90dB bedroom amp. How then can the headphones make a listener deaf with prolonged exposure, but not the bedroom amp? My Answer: A combination of factors: - The source is over 100 times closer to the ear. - The “room†is much smaller. This room being the air space in the headphone cup and ear canal. - Greater directivity, since the acoustical energy has not many other places to go. These and possibly other factors result in a sound pressure level across the ear drum which is greater than the danger threshold, thereby causing noise-induced deafness. Again, I’m no expert, so please correct me if I’m wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphodboy Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 This has been a tough topic forever. Slight patch-to-patch volume (not tone) levels will be a thing of the past for anyone lucky enough to own a Helix when they hit the shelves. Any volume variations between patches will be easily levelled with FEET on the fly while still playing the guitar in seconds. Uber-cool!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jandrio Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 ...Slight patch-to-patch volume (not tone) levels will be a thing of the past for anyone lucky enough to own a Helix when they hit the shelves. Any volume variations between patches will be easily levelled with FEET on the fly while still playing the guitar in seconds..... i can image the lucky ones tap-dancing while playing 'n singing! wonderful show :D 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealZap Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 only a show or two.... you can save the changes with your feet as well :D i can image the lucky ones tap-dancing while playing 'n singing! wonderful show :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertmcollins3 Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I guess I don't run into this problem very often because I try to use the same patch nearly all the time using the POD in pedalboard mode. If for some reason I need another patch (which is VERY rare, not to mention I don't like the latency when switching between patches) then I try to keep it very close to the original and just make the adjustment needed for the song (i.e. maybe it needs a wah or more reverb, then I just add that in the chain and take out something else and leave the rest the same). Maybe this is just avoiding the problem instead of fixing it, but I think it's a bit unrealistic to want to change to completely different sounding amps during a set and expect them to be at exactly the same volume. Maybe I just don't play songs that are that different from one another during a set where I would need to change to a different amp. Anyway, it sounds like the OP has made up his mind to go away from the POD. It's not for everyone, and he will need to do what works best for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianoguyy Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 do you mean that if I live in an apartment (like 90% of the population in Singapore), can only rehearse in a small studio, and have 15 minutes to sound-check at a live venue where I’ve never played before, then too bad, bro? Me and a couple friends own a 50,000 square foot building that gets rented out for bands to plan and rehearse their tours. The reason I do this, the reason it is needed, is because these huge productions that you see do not just magically appear. They need a place to rehearse. Katy Perry isn't building robotic lion in her back yard. Nor are her 30 stage dancers warming up in her bedroom. These things get worked on in advance, and there aren't too many football fields available for rent. Why do I tell you this? Because even in the 'big leagues' people need to work out the kinks of a live performance long before the live performance. As to the guys in the apartment -- you will always be in an apartment and will always be limited to a 15 minute sound check until you fix what is wrong. Once you fix it, then you'll get 30 minutes for sound check which will lead to a bunch more problems that need fixed. Until eventually, you are renting out sound stages and spending a million dollars trying to fix the problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceatl Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 What I have found is that if I can level my patches (and tweak) @ around 80 db SPL (83 db is the typical mastering sound pressure reference), then I am generally pretty good for almost any situation I walk into....My tones are fairly flat and generally need little correction at all on the strip going from one system to another...just my 2 cents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meiannatee Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Me and a couple friends own a 50,000 square foot building that gets rented out for bands to plan and rehearse their tours. The reason I do this, the reason it is needed, is because these huge productions that you see do not just magically appear. They need a place to rehearse.... Why do I tell you this? Because even in the 'big leagues' people need to work out the kinks of a live performance long before the live performance. As to the guys in the apartment -- you will always be in an apartment and will always be limited to a 15 minute sound check until you fix what is wrong. Once you fix it, then you'll get 30 minutes for sound check which will lead to a bunch more problems that need fixed. Until eventually, you are renting out sound stages and spending a million dollars trying to fix the problem. Nice rehearsal space, many of us envy you. 50,000 sqft will cost an average of 2.5 million US$ in Singapore (just for the land! :( ) The thing is, this Rodmayes said he (are you a "he"?) doesn't face the same volume imbalance problem with other gear. I have never had this issue with any other processor. Ever. And I have owned or used almost eveythingout there over the years. 1) So, he said that it's a Line 6/Pod thing. So we gotta look at why other processors do not have this problem. This has nothing to do with the loudness perception (Fletcher-Munson curves), as elaborated in my previous long post. It's simply about volume across patches, not the tone of each patch. 2) I didn't face this problem as much, and it MAY be because of how I level each FX block. 3) He should try out my method and anything else anyone has to suggest first. 4) If all else fails, he'll just have to make the trip down to the actual venue to adjust his patch volumes before the gig, like you said. 5) He shouldn't sell his Pod, simply because it's awesome :D (unless he can afford a Helix....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealZap Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 could be something as simple as his input z being set to auto... and depending on the first effect in the patch... anyway... he's made up his mind... so not alot of point in beating him up about it.... many of us get by without the sort of issue he describes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodmoyes Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Ahh, finally, someone who acutally read and addressed the issue. Look guys, I didn't come here to start a fight or anything. I came here because I thought maybe one of you would have some insight into the issue I'm having. Again, my google searches tell me that I am far from alone in my frustration, and the fact that a forum dedicated to a device that is now what? 5 years old? just HAPPENED to already have a thread on the very same topic on the FRONT PAGE, is further evidence that this is indeed a problem. I don't mean to be unappreciative of tips and pointers at all. It is however, frustrating when those suggestions are based on something entirely different from the actual issue. This is why I tried to be exceptionally clear in describing it as a final volume output problem and not one of tonal variations. I would prefer not to dump this unit, because aside from this one mind bending issue, I really love it. The amount of flexibility and quality of sound is outrageous for something that cost so little in comparison to an AXE FX II or Kemplar etc. It seems extremely likely, that it is that very flexibility that is the source of the problem here. The sheer number of variables and routing options is a recipe for exactly what I am experiencing. I understand that the BOSS GT-10 has a similar issue, which stands to reason, because it too is of this new generation of multi-fx with multiple routing options and signal chain allocation options, along with varying input impedence options (which to answer a question asked above, no. I do not have my input set to "Auto". I leave it 1M, and barring any complications such as a broken string, I use ONE guitar during our live performances. Yes, I bring back up guitars just in case). As for the suggestion above regarding basing all of your patches on one template in terms of amp model etc... That is both an excellent way to mitigate the issue and a complete defeating of the units strongest selling point. In my case, I am using the unit solely for live performances of those wonderfully weird alternative 80's songs wherein the main goal of most of those guitarists was to make their guitar sound like anything other than a guitar. Most of these songs are soaking wet with modulation and delay effects as well as others, and the number of different amps used by those guys was just crazy. It was really down to whatever they could afford to pick up second hand upon first starting out and stuck with them because they had built their sound around whatever that amp was. The HD 500 does an incredible job of getting those little nuances with uncanny precision. For that fact, I absolutely admire it. I just want an easier way to amke all of the dozens of wildly different patches to reach the amplification input at a fairly consistent level.Cost isn't even really a consideration here. Sure, it's nice that it was only $500, but if I wanted an AXE FX II or similar, I would just get one. Our first lead guitarist (RIP) was an absolutely brilliant guy and amazing musician with a savant like mastery of tone creation. Watching him lug that AXE FX unit and all of it's ancilliary components around (along with an AC30) and then having to dance around on the MIDI controller all night like Gregory Hines on a 4 day meth bender made me completely sure that I don't want to go there. Last thing, as far as getting a bit sideways in my last post. Whether the offending statement was directed at me or not is irrelevent. The whole idea of creating threads such as this, is to share knowledge and experiences in an effort to better understand the particular topic at hand. It is a community, one of fellow musicians and fans/users of a common item. I have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to any form of "EThuggery". Answering someones questions by assailing them with names and condescension will find no quarter with me. I'm the nicest guy in the world... right up until I see someone unjustly bullying or deriding someone else who is simply seeking information. That's just Bush League and frankly says far more about the abuser than it does about the subject of that abuse. Capice? Back in High School, they used to call me "Linderman". If you're around my age, you likely can imagine why. Don't act like Matt Dillon, and I won't have to go Adam Baldwin. There are a few guys on here who know me well from other forums, I'm sure they'd all tell you how friendly and knowledgable I am and how easy to get along with. I love to be part of the solution whenever I can. They'll also tell you that I am not someone who abides DBaggery. So, thanks to those who were welcoming and helpful. It is genuinely appreciated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_Crocco Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 ^ dude, no offense, but you came in hear with your guns blazing and getting easily offended and such. Then point to the fact that nobody read your post properly because you weren't getting the answers you were looking for. Fact is you didn't read the OP properly because it has nothing to do with the issue you have laid out in this thread. I wrote the OP and my question had to do with the patches sounding crappy at stage volume. It had NOTHING to do with volume discrepancies from patch to patch. Also, nobody cares about how wonderful you are or your million dollar console or how you got to work with a Grammy winning producer. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodmoyes Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Fair enough in terms of my issue being different from the OP. Related, but different. My bad. As for guns blazing... huh? I asked for help while expressing my frustration with a unit that you all are familiar with and therefore might have some helpful advice. Perhaps I failed somehow to make my particular issue clear in the beginning, because the answers I got were not relevant to my case. On it's own, that's no big deal, but when there's snarky attitudes accompanying those answers, that's just being a dbag. If my brief mention of being somewhat knowledgeable as a professional bothers you, suck it up. It was simply to quantify that I'm not a 15 year old kid playing a Wal-Mart First Act into a 15W practice amp in my bedroom and having no clue what I'm doing. Clearly I don't know everything, because I was seeking assistance. If my taking issue with smug, self-righteous Aholes and bullies offends you... well, you just might be one. I treat people how I want to be treated. I also don't abide people being dooshie for the sake of being dooshie. Screw me right? Well, I have good news for you: today, I figured out how to solve the issue once and for all and am very pleased about not having to ditch my HD. In even better news, I will now leave you to practice the fine art of being dooshbags to one another without my atrocious civility getting in your way. I learned a lot in my short time here. Nothing about the unit, bur plenty about how easy it is for people to be internet tough guys and basic dbags. Thanks for the education, and for those who aren't angry trolls, feel free to PM me and I'll happily share my solution with you. Asta pasta modeler mafiosos. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucleusX Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 :rolleyes: Am I the only one that thinks the word "hijacked" after reading this thread ? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerosol_d7 Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 If my brief mention of being somewhat knowledgeable as a professional bothers you, suck it up. It was simply to quantify that I'm not a 15 year old kid playing a Wal-Mart First Act into a 15W practice amp in my bedroom and having no clue what I'm doing. . I agree with you, sometimes I think everyone should start a topic like this: Hi friends, I love line 6, have 10 years of experience. Start the topic.... Otherwise you will see 10 posts about anything but the subject. Happened so often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceatl Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 :rolleyes: Am I the only one that thinks the word "hijacked" after reading this thread ? lol probably more of a case of misunderstood context. Often happens with written word like forums, text, emails etc...When I read these threads, I try to imagine we are all sitting around having a beer just talking shop. I think most guitar players generally have a clever sense of humor and some of that tone is just lost in the forum and some folks end up writing books over something that probably would have just made them laugh had the conversation been face to face....anyway, just my 3rd cent... B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Well, I have good news for you: today, I figured out how to solve the issue once and for all and am very pleased about not having to ditch my HD. In even better news, I will now leave you to practice the fine art of being dooshbags to one another without my atrocious civility getting in your way. I learned a lot in my short time here. Nothing about the unit, bur plenty about how easy it is for people to be internet tough guys and basic dbags. Thanks for the education, and for those who aren't angry trolls, feel free to PM me and I'll happily share my solution with you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianoguyy Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I have a Grammy. Eminem does too. Only one of us can tell you how to play a G chord. *** What IS the solution! After all, it is a well known problem with a question being posted on the first page. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meiannatee Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I wrote the OP and my question had to do with the patches sounding crappy at stage volume. It had NOTHING to do with volume discrepancies from patch to patch. Sorry bro, was just trying to help out the other guy. Rodmayes, do share your solution with us. As for your issue Rocco, when you said the patches sound crappy, do you mean on wedges, FoH speakers, or in-ear mons? And do they sound terrible by themselves, or only when the rest of the band comes in? These details will help others to point you in the right direction. If you like, you can download free sound pressure level measuring phone apps to get an idea of whether your practice volume is alot higher or lower than stage volume. The actual SPL reading isn't accurate, but if you use the same device at both locations and measure at the spots where your ears would be, it'll give you a rough idea of the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arislaf Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 ...Story of my life etc... I treat people how I want to be treated. I also don't abide people being dooshie for the sake of being dooshie. Screw me right? Well, I have good news for you: today, I figured out how to solve the issue once and for all and am very pleased about not having to ditch my HD. In even better news, I will now leave you to practice the fine art of being dooshbags to one another without my atrocious civility getting in your way. I learned a lot in my short time here. Nothing about the unit, bur plenty about how easy it is for people to be internet tough guys and basic dbags. Thanks for the education, and for those who aren't angry trolls, feel free to PM me and I'll happily share my solution with you. Asta pasta modeler mafiosos. And what makes you special? Your attitude? Reading all your posts here, and the only thing I see is a big ''I'' ''AM'' and nothing to help anyone. You treat ppl how you want to be treated. And ppl will treat you as you deserve. Calling all guys dbugs, when they try to help you is the way to appreciate em? Hijackig a topic and asking your question is right? Oh, sorry I forget, you are the millionaire,expert Mr. Perfect. Look at your post and after the mirror and check who is the douchebag here. Asta diala malaka 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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