latency when i'm changing patches

[fun-boy]

Hi, 

when i'm changing the patch, for example 1.A to 1.B, there is half a second of latency... Is there something to do?? I'm already upgraded to the 1.06 firmware

[Digital_Igloo]

There's not a half-second gap. There's 120ms at most, going from one very complex preset to another very complex preset. With simpler presets, the average gap is 40-60ms, or 1/20th of a second.

 

The screen redraws are slower than the audio you hear, which makes some people believe it's slower.

 

Helix makes it easy to create multiple tones within the same preset. Try starting with 8 TEMPLATES > 02C TwoTones A-B or 8 TEMPLATES > 02D TwoTones Blend, both of which support two completely different tones with spillover delay and reverb.

[fun-boy]

I did not take my stopwatch but I know that 's not good to play in live... I just bought  an effect pedal for more than 1400€, the most expansive in the shop and there is some latency when I'm changing preset!! That s not normal for a product at this price!! And I would like to know if there's something to do?! Is there an upgraded planned or something? Apparently, the shop give me a model who was return by another customer, is there some model who are faster??

[cruisinon2]

I did not take my stopwatch but I know that 's not good to play in live... I just bought an effect pedal for more than 1400€, the most expansive in the shop and there is some latency when I'm changing preset!! That s not normal for a product at this price!! And I would like to know if there's something to do?! Is there an upgraded planned or something? Apparently, the shop give me a model who was return by another customer, is there some model who are faster??

I've yet to own any modeler/multi-fx unit that didn't have that "soundless" gap during a patch change. Annoying, but its the nature of the beast...none of them are instantaneous, no matter what you pay for them.

[fukuri]

When are you going to learn DI that arguing the milliseconds is the wrong approach here?

[Digital_Igloo]

When are you going to learn DI that arguing the milliseconds is the wrong approach here?

When are you going to learn—fukuri—that further improvements are certainly possible—and—there are current in-preset solutions that all but solve any perceived issues. In the meantime, it's important to ensure that misinformation like "half-second gap" doesn't spread.

 

And someone does make a processor with seamless gap, but it dedicates half of its DSP to spillover and only spillover. To accomplish the same, Helix would have to either give you half as many blocks or drop the quality by half, and almost no one's willing to make that sacrifice, especially when again, Helix allows for in-preset solutions today.

 

If one:

• categorically refuses to utilize 8 TEMPLATES > 02C TwoTones A-B or 8 TEMPLATES > 02D TwoTones Blend, AND
• they insist that the presets themselves must switch seamlessly, AND
• they care more about preset switching than number of simultaneous blocks or model granularity...

...the DigiTech GSP-1101 is an excellent solution.

[fun-boy]

I've tried again, again and again...

YES NEARLY HALF A SECOND GAP!! Perhaps 0,45 seconde.... So...

IMPORTANT to make a non marketing notice!! 

I bought a HD500X and nothing could justify a so big difference a price!!

Sure, HELIX is a very good product , it's sound good, interface is near the perfection!! But I try to find information about the gap, I asked to the shop I bought it and I would like someone tell me : "You've got a gap when you switch between patches! Enough to be bad when you play live!"

THAT' S A VERY IMPORTANT POINT!!

 

Last point: At the beginning, I asked for HELP!! NOT to be taken for a fool or to cry I'm UNHAPPY!

 

Just need a SOLUTION, PLEASE!!

[arislaf]

Mate, same thing was with the pod HD, final update (after 5 years) and the problem fixed, less than 0.5 seconds. Can not guarantee you about the same that will happen for helix though. 

 

Already there is a thread on helix forum (here) regarding latency.

[phil_m]

I've tried again, again and again...

YES NEARLY HALF A SECOND GAP!! Perhaps 0,45 seconde.... So...

IMPORTANT to make a non marketing notice!! 

I bought a HD500X and nothing could justify a so big difference a price!!

Sure, HELIX is a very good product , it's sound good, interface is near the perfection!! But I try to find information about the gap, I asked to the shop I bought it and I would like someone tell me : "You've got a gap when you switch between patches! Enough to be bad when you play live!"

THAT' S A VERY IMPORTANT POINT!!

 

Last point: At the beginning, I asked for HELP!! NOT to be taken for a fool or to cry I'm UNHAPPY!

 

Just need a SOLUTION, PLEASE!!

 

Are you connected to the Helix app when you're changing patches? That will slow things down.

[fun-boy]

Phil_m : No, just guitar>jack>phones... 

[gunpointmetal]

This is still a performance (as in live performance, not the performance of the pedal) issue that should be worked on. They got it down to nearly-non-audible levels with the HD500X, but I really do think it sucks donkey balls that I can't use my "fully-loaded" clean and distortion patches with multiple amps live yet because the change latency is so much as to be distracting.....

[cruisinon2]

This is still a performance (as in live performance, not the performance of the pedal) issue that should be worked on. They got it down to nearly-non-audible levels with the HD500X, but I really do think it sucks donkey balls that I can't use my "fully-loaded" clean and distortion patches with multiple amps live yet because the change latency is so much as to be distracting.....

It's it not possible to assign clean and dirty tones to the expression pedal within the same patch, and pan between them, as with the 500X? (Forgive me...I'm Helix-less)?

[fun-boy]

Yes it's possible and at this time, no gap... Same at the H500X!!

But I'using a lot of different sound in one song... So.... My post :-)

[trinitypc]

I've tried again, again and again...

YES NEARLY HALF A SECOND GAP!! Perhaps 0,45 seconde.... So...

IMPORTANT to make a non marketing notice!!

I bought a HD500X and nothing could justify a so big difference a price!!

Sure, HELIX is a very good product , it's sound good, interface is near the perfection!! But I try to find information about the gap, I asked to the shop I bought it and I would like someone tell me : "You've got a gap when you switch between patches! Enough to be bad when you play live!"

THAT' S A VERY IMPORTANT POINT!!

 

Last point: At the beginning, I asked for HELP!! NOT to be taken for a fool or to cry I'm UNHAPPY!

 

Just need a SOLUTION, PLEASE!!

You may want to switch over to Fractal's AX8 or Axe FX II... oh wait, both of those also have that dropout delay when switching patches.

[fukuri]

When are you going to learn—fukuri—that further improvements are certainly possible—and—there are current in-preset solutions that all but solve any perceived issues. In the meantime, it's important to ensure that misinformation like "half-second gap" doesn't spread.

 

And someone does make a processor with seamless gap, but it dedicates half of its DSP to spillover and only spillover. To accomplish the same, Helix would have to either give you half as many blocks or drop the quality by half, and almost no one's willing to make that sacrifice, especially when again, Helix allows for in-preset solutions today.

 

If one:

• categorically refuses to utilize 8 TEMPLATES > 02C TwoTones A-B or 8 TEMPLATES > 02D TwoTones Blend, AND
• they insist that the presets themselves must switch seamlessly, AND
• they care more about preset switching than number of simultaneous blocks or model granularity...

...the DigiTech GSP-1101 is an excellent solution.

Never then

Believe it or not I am trying to help you here

If someone is having an issue switching between patches your pedantic approach about how many ms isn't going to cut it.

You seem to forget I've demonstrated for people many different ways to achieve the same goal without going to different patches.. But you'd rather wind people up about how many ms it is.

If it's a noticeable gap then the actual number of ms only matters to you

No-one else

And people aren't going to be swayed by 'misinformation' over whether its 500ms or 290 ms

What they want to know is 'is there a noticeable drop out or gap'

There is . There are lots of good reasons for it but don't think you can prove that it isn't there with Arithmetic

[Digital_Igloo]

Never then

Believe it or not I am trying to help you here

 

Clearly.

 

The point is that literally every DSP-based modeler other than the GSP-1101 has a gap. For what feels like the billionth time, this is simply how DSP works—the chip MUST unload models from one preset BEFORE it load models for the next preset. The more models you unload/load, and the more complex the models, the longer the gap. By many accounts, Fractal's AX8 ($1399) has a similar gap to Helix. This isn't surprising, as it uses the exact same 450MHz SHARC 21469s as Helix does.

 

Since all current modelers (even the $2200 AxeFX II XL+) have an audible gap, if you're gonna wring your hands over the gap, you better be ready to measure said gap. If one categorically refuses to accept any sort of gap, then... they better like the GSP-1101's modeling and features because, again, it's the only modeler that'll make 'em happy.

 

If and when you're willing to discuss milliseconds, it might be helpful to list a millisecond gap that's acceptable to you, as everyone's gonna have a different idea of:

• what's noticeable
• what's acceptable
• what they're willing to give up to get there

Because screaming "I don't want any gap!" or "It feels like forever!" with zero qualifiers helps no one, especially after I've explained the technical implications dozens of times.

[RRMark]

Mine feels almost instantaneous, a barely noticeable gap, poss 20ms lol, really just feels like a miniscule ramp up time between presets presumably there to smooth the change. I don't miss spillover as i'm already playing the next riff.

 

There again unlike say Glenn Delaune's Clean Sound I don't need 21 blocks with so many options. I appreciate these complex presets and textures are great for some, but I write separate presets so I can get to the sound I want instantly, I go mono, one amp, one IR, a few fX, maybe 8 blocks total. Even then I split them across the 2 DSPs evenly as i figure that may speed loading time. I do place a few switching options in the preset, like amp volume boost, gain boost, reverb/delay mix for wetness, maybe a flange or an octaver, but do keep options to a minimum.

 

I play weekly coversband gigs, one guitar, bass, drums, vocals. We cover about 100 songs and I get away with 3 banks of 8 presets and a few song specific presets, plus 5 position switch for pickup options =120+ sounds! Main Bank is - Clean, Dirty Clean, Crunch, Heavy, Louder Dirty Clean, Cleanish Solo, Solo, Huge Solo. A more vintage bank with stuff like slapback and a more Hard Rock/Metal Bank. Fairly generic I guess, but playing for 200 slightly drunk party goers, who just want a good dance, I don't have to get too precious.

 

For me the switching is no issue at all.

 

Again, I understand some users need huge complex presets with everything thrown in and 3 EQs. I do enjoy messing about with big stereo sounds for recording and just for the fun of creating them.

[mjorden]

It drives me crazy that Line 6 does not believe this is an issue. It is disheartening as a long time customer. Yes, there are in patch solutions, but I prefer to switch patches like I have with every modeler I have owned. I hope it will be addressed instead of giving work around or reasons why it isn't an issue. I'm a loyal customer and it's an issue to me.

[davidb7170]

It seems very manageable to me. I have an intro with a banjo in drop Db variax patch right next to a LP drop Db variax heavy distortion and the go right from one into the other -- it switches the variax model & tuning settings and from an acoustic setting with eq's and compression plus reverb and echoes for the banjo right into the distortion and FX right on the beat when I switch from one to the other, boom. no major gap...

 

That's a lot of stuff going on inside the box, been doing it for years from my X3L to my HD500, then 500X, to the Helix. I haven't found the switching gaps seem to get worse from one to the other. Maybe I'm just used to it and plan or time my switches between patches without consciously thinking about it. If you want analog, go analog, but good luck doing what can be done with these units....

 

Dave

[spikey]

They will eventually fix this, either with faster processing or a new idea. I remember when the Line-6 spokesman once told me on their own forum that the Variax would never have alternate tunings. It was just too unreliable sound wise...

[fun-boy]

Someone need to understand we do not have all the same needs... And personally, I'm playing in 3 band and one of then got so much work on different sounds change, the gap is a problem FOR ME. 

So, I 've got my answers!! Unsolved problem at this time, the 9/03/2016...

And if i could find this information before, i would have expected to buy the helix!

For me, line6 got a lot of innovative and good product...but Line6 need to understand we do not have all the same needs, and visibly i'm not the only one who would like to have NO gap between preset!!

So, This time... Return and waiting the problem be resolve for me!

 

Thanks everybody

[fukuri]

Clearly.

 

 

It's really difficult when you are so intent in having a rant that you aren't listening to what I'm trying to say

If you would take a deep breath for 10 seconds you might realise that *I* don't have a problem with patch changes mid song as that's not how I use the device. My patches have all my soundsets in a single place so switching between patches isn't something I ever do mid song.

 

But thanks for the massive lecture .. I'm not "wringing my hands over milliseconds" or what ever ridiculous hyperbole you put in my mouth

 

You seem happy that you're current approach is winning you hearts and minds .. by all means carry on and good luck. Personally I think all you do in these situation is wade in with no empathy at all and wind people up but if that is what you are going for then go nuts.

 

I'm off to the gear page to talk about how accurate the tuner is...

[PeterHamm]

 

Well... I am able to construct a patch with Helix that has the equivalent of 3 or 4 of my HD 500 patches within it, so I don't have to switch patches very much anymore. Most of the time I live on one patch (that gets me clean, edge-of-breakup, crunchy, and more crunchy on one patch with several delay options, acoustic guitar layered in at the same time, and special FX verb and 2 modulation options) for song after song after song.

 

You can probably work around this better on Helix than on AX8 in fact.

[cruisinon2]

Well I expect perfection, instant gratification, and eternal bliss from every product I buy...regardless of cost or complexity. Manufactures should be able to anticipate my every need and prepare for it as if I were consulted on every step of the R&D process. If not, I will scream from the rooftops about the inferiority of said product, whilst shaming the company publically for failing to meet MY needs, and man will it feel good. Mmmm...Me, me, me, me, me. Me. Did I mention me? Gotta go...need to return some stuff that sucks (worst package of rubber bands I've ever seen, woefully inadequate), and gear up to whine about the new thing I'm gonna replace it with, when I find out that it sucks too...gonna be a busy day! ;)

[phil_m]

It drives me crazy that Line 6 does not believe this is an issue. It is disheartening as a long time customer. Yes, there are in patch solutions, but I prefer to switch patches like I have with every modeler I have owned. I hope it will be addressed instead of giving work around or reasons why it isn't an issue. I'm a loyal customer and it's an issue to me.

 

I don't think Line 6 doesn't believe it's an issue, at least for some users. They aren't clueless. I think, though, that all DI is saying in this thread is that this is the way it is right now, and if the workaround don't work for you, well, what is there to say? They can't publicly discuss future plans, so all they can talk about is the fact as they stand. When someone starts a thread claiming the gap between presets is 4X as long as it actually is, I think it's worth refuting it with the actual, measurable values. There's quite a big difference between 120ms and 500ms (500ms would be half a measure at 120 BPM, for instance, and yes anyone would notice that sort of gap).

 

The fact is that all current modelers have this issue in one way or another. Some offer limited spillover under certain configuration between patch changes, but there's still a gap between the time you hit the footswitch to change patches and when the new preset is loaded. From what I hear the Kemper is probably the shortest, but that makes sense since the signal chains it allows are very simple compared to other modelers. The Axe FX offers scenes, and that may work for some users, but it's not necessarily an answer for all users.

[PeterHamm]

From what I hear the Kemper is probably the shortest, but that makes sense since the signal chains it allows are very simple compared to other modelers. The Axe FX offers scenes, and that may work for some users, but it's not necessarily an answer for all users.

 

Yes, and if the only way to do this is to cripple the unit, most of us wouldn't buy it.

 

Scenes? To a certain extent, you can do something like that now in Helix, as I've described earlier. You can do SO much in one patch, even switching out multiple amps if you want. The other very useful thing is, on some amps, there are sorta two channels "built-in" to one amp model. Matchless Jump is like that, so is the /13. REAL useful for multiple tones from one amp in one patch.

 

Not the solution for everyone, yup...

[Digital_Igloo]

It drives me crazy that Line 6 does not believe this is an issue.

 

Of course it's an issue—one that's been discussed ad nauseum—but it's an issue that plagues ALL modelers today, so what do you want me to say?

• "We're working on changing the laws of physics"
• "We're investing tens of billions on hundreds of new employees and our own custom chip fabrication plants in an attempt to somehow best the capabilities of Intel, AMD, TI, Motorola, and Analog Devices... to hopefully make a DSP chip capable of spillover"
• "We're gonna force you to upgrade to a $2000 HELIX SPILL with four SHARCs that adds literally nothing but spillover"
• "We're going to drop the sound quality of the models by half so you get spillover"

I'm off to the gear page to talk about how accurate the tuner is...

 

Okay, that's funny. Cheers!

[PeterHamm]

DI, while you're at it... my guitars have 22 frets, which means it's hard for me to play the really high meedly meedly Yngwe Malmsteen stuff that makes all the girls want me in an almost unnatural manner... Can you guys please make a 27 fret guitar that still has the neck pickup in the right place... Thanks...

[duncann]

Of course it's an issue, but it's an issue that plagues ALL modelers today, so what do you want me to say?

• "We're working on changing the laws of physics"

 

Wait a minute. You mean to say you're not? I thought I remember seeing some pictures of your amp storage room at Line 6 that had a console in there that allows you to fiddle with the universe's constants.

[PeterHamm]

Wait a minute. You mean to say you're not? I thought I remember seeing some pictures of your amp storage room at Line 6 that had a console in there that allows you to fiddle with the universe's constants.

They have a working TARDIS.

[cruisinon2]

They have a working TARDIS.

Lol. Well done, Doctor...;)

[cruisinon2]

Of course it's an issue, but it's an issue that plagues ALL modelers today, so what do you want me to say?

• "We're working on changing the laws of physics"
• "We're investing tens of billions on hundreds of new employees and our own custom chip fabrication plants in an attempt to somehow best the capabilities of Intel, AMD, TI, Motorola, and Analog Devices... to hopefully make a DSP chip capable of spillover"
• "We're gonna force you to upgrade to a $2000 HELIX SPILL with four SHARCs that adds literally nothing but spillover"
• "We're going to drop the sound quality of the models by half so you get spillover"

Unfortunately, facts have no place in a discussion about feelings. Today's customer, merely by the act of spending money is entitled to every worldly desire, you see? To not deliver (no matter how impossible the demand) is an unpardonable offense, and damaged psyches hang in the balance. Feel their pain...my God, man! Semi-drunken renditions of "Sweet Home Alabama" down at Walt's Trout Hut are at stake here!!!!!

 

Plus, he's paying your salary. If you don't hurry up and produce, next time he'll run out and buy something else, and you'll be living in a van down by the river. ;)

[HonestOpinion]

Lol. Well done, Doctor... ;)

 

Doctor who?  ;)

[PeterHamm]

Doctor who?  ;)

ED ZACHARY!

[Digital_Igloo]

Unfortunately, facts have no place in a discussion about feelings. He bought gear, so he's paying your salary. If you don't hurry up and produce, next time he'll run out and buy something else, and you'll be living in a van down by the river. ;)

 

Sometimes I forget that not everyone has read the 9,000+ threads over decades about preset switching gaps/spillover on this forum, Fractal's forum, Roland's forum, Kemper's forum, Atomic's forum, Zoom's forum, Korg/VOX's forum, Yamaha's forum, Kurzweil's forum, Waldorf's forum, Akai's forum, E-MU's forum, etc...

[HonestOpinion]

They will eventually fix this, either with faster processing or a new idea. I remember when the Line-6 spokesman once told me on their own forum that the Variax would never have alternate tunings. It was just too unreliable sound wise...

 

 

It drives me crazy that Line 6 does not believe this is an issue. It is disheartening as a long time customer. Yes, there are in patch solutions, but I prefer to switch patches like I have with every modeler I have owned. I hope it will be addressed instead of giving work around or reasons why it isn't an issue. I'm a loyal customer and it's an issue to me.

 

I am not finding switching latency or lack of spillover a showstopper, but I agree, they are genuine issues.  Of course, as has been repeated ad nauseum, these issues exist on almost every MFX on the market to greater or lesser degree.  I love playing with the Helix now but by all means it will be a much better device when these issues are finally and completely addressed (probably in future generations of the device).  I am definitely in the philosophical camp that believe that in future hardware generations both spillover and preset switching latency will be non-issues gone the way of the Dodo bird. There seems to be some disagreement on that point as some contend that the constant demand for better modeling and other features will continue to consume any added processing power. Only time will settle that debate. Currently all we can hope for is that given the current hardware, every effort to minimize latency through code optimization  and perhaps some clever workarounds for limited spillover implementation between presets are provided. 

 

Personally I believe in future generations of the Helix or whatever replaces it, as processor speeds and capabilities increase, and as costs go down, at some point the decision will be made to allocate those additional resources to spillover and the lowest possible latency (within the laws of physics). Processors will get so cheap they will be throwing them around like Skittles, e.g. "we dedicated a single processor just to provide psychedelic lighting for the footswitch rings". Modeling will be so good that an incremental, potentially inaudible improvement to model quality or other features will be outweighed by customer demands and desire for low latency and spillover.  In my opinion we are darn near that point now. Man does this thing sound good!

[PeterHamm]

Sometimes I forget that not everyone has read the 9,000+ threads over decades about preset switching gaps/spillover on this forum, Fractal's forum, Roland's forum, Kemper's forum, Atomic's forum, Zoom's forum, Korg/VOX's forum, Yamaha's forum, Kurzweil's forum, Waldorf's forum, Akai's forum, E-MU's forum, etc...

 

yeah, but...

 

[aepoc]

I've tried again, again and again...

YES NEARLY HALF A SECOND GAP!! Perhaps 0,45 seconde.... So...

IMPORTANT to make a non marketing notice!! 

I bought a HD500X and nothing could justify a so big difference a price!!

Sure, HELIX is a very good product , it's sound good, interface is near the perfection!! But I try to find information about the gap, I asked to the shop I bought it and I would like someone tell me : "You've got a gap when you switch between patches! Enough to be bad when you play live!"

THAT' S A VERY IMPORTANT POINT!!

 

Last point: At the beginning, I asked for HELP!! NOT to be taken for a fool or to cry I'm UNHAPPY!

 

Just need a SOLUTION, PLEASE!!

 

There are solutions, you just don't want to implement them.  Try not to concentrate so much on the patch switching delay... concentrate more on learning how to utilize the workarounds that have been described to you.  The Helix is a wonderful machine.  Please try not to be so close-minded.

[cruisinon2]

There are solutions, you just don't want to implement them. Try not to concentrate so much on the patch switching delay... concentrate more on learning how to utilize the workarounds that have been described to you. The Helix is a wonderful machine. Please try not to be so close-minded.

 

Or do what we've all been doing forever...find the best spot to make the switch where it'll be the least noticeable. Camouflage it with a well-timed string/pick slide, or muted "chug". Roll off the volume quick and smooth before the patch change. It can all lessen the "abruptness" of the switch.

 

Better yet, remind yourself that absolutely no one in the audience is going to notice anyway, because they're all either tone-deaf or drunk. Except of course for the guitar player in the back, with his arms folded, who's been judging everything you played for the last half hour...and do you really care what he thinks anyway? If he was any good, he'd be at his own gig. ;)

[HonestOpinion]

...

 

Better yet, remind yourself that absolutely no one in the audience is going to notice anyway, because they're all either tone-deaf or drunk. Except of course for the guitar player in the back, with his arms folded, who's been judging everything you played for the last half hour...and do you really care what he thinks anyway?

 

Only when I'm the "guitarist with folded arms in the back"  :D