Helix Native

[phil_m]

Regarding the whole "what happen to Native if I sell my Helix?" question, I saw the Line 6 guys gave an answer on Facebook. If you sell your Helix, you can keep Native, but the person who buys your Helix from you won't be eligible for the discount. In other words, there will only be one discount associated with each registration/Helix serial number.

 

I suppose the tricky thing for Line 6 is going to be how they handle the situation where someone buys the Helix, buys Native with the discount code, and then returns Helix. Not sure how they'll handle that.

[Inerzia]

Regarding the whole "what happen to Native if I sell my Helix?" question, I saw the Line 6 guys gave an answer on Facebook. If you sell your Helix, you can keep Native, but the person who buys your Helix from you won't be eligible for the discount. In other words, there will only be one discount associated with each registration/Helix serial number.

 

I suppose the tricky thing for Line 6 is going to be how they handle the situation where someone buys the Helix, buys Native with the discount code, and then returns Helix. Not sure how they'll handle that.

If that's the case, I suppose whoever wants to sell the unit and keep the software will have to advertise it honestly, so that the buyer knows exactly what he/she gets. 

 

Judging by L6's history of updates and upgrades, and the price stability of their software, I believe Native will not lose resale value as quick as the hardware. If I wanted a used floor Helix, I wouldn't pay more than 1000€ (sells new for about 1350) if I still have the possibility to get the discounted Native with it, or 700 if it's already registered with Native by a previous owner.

I see people not caring about Native and finding sweet deals on units that have already used their discounts.

 

[twpmeister]

I honestly believe the only way they can protect against people returning the hardware once they've registered and bought native at discount is for the discount to only be redeemable after a minimum time period (for example 30 days) has elapsed from the point of sale/registration. They've been very quiet about any detail regarding how this will work other than to say what the discounts are. I'm actually concerned they'll initially come out and say only USA customers even qualify for the $99 price- which would be EXTREMELY disappointing.

[bjnette]

What if having Native makes owning a Helix more desirable?
It might be advantageous if Native was more accessible cost wise.
That and Native updates aim to make it more intergratable with Helix.
It might not be that big an issue if a few sell off their Helix's after getting 
Native as they will miss on using it with the hardware.

[bobthedog]

how come no one posted anything here yesterday?

[PeterHamm]

how come no one posted anything here yesterday?

 

Because we were busy making music maybe...?

 

Y'all who record a lot are really gonna like this Native thing. 

[twpmeister]

Because we were busy making music maybe...?

 

Y'all who record a lot are really gonna like this Native thing. 

I'm sure we will  --- if we're ever aloud to have it :-(

[franz]

I have one question:

if I have a midi track with program changes an ccs on my DAW to drive patches and snapshots on the hardware will I be able to redirect the midi to the plugin and obtain the same results (and viceversa) given that the patch will occupy the same bank/slot on both?

[klangmaler]

Besides...

http://line6.com/support/forum/90-helix-native/

[bobthedog]

Because we were busy making music maybe...?

 

 

 

Day off today then ;)

[wilkinsi]

If it makes anyone feel any better, I've just been told my Seymour Duncan Andromeda DELAY pedal is now expected in 3 weeks. It was released 8th June...

[spikey]

I'm actually concerned they'll initially come out and say only USA customers even qualify for the $99 price- which would be EXTREMELY disappointing. 

 

I see what you mean. I'd be disappointed too if it were the other way around. But money is money no matter what border is crossed so I doubt this will happen. 

 

I actually think they should just withdraw the special deal for Helix owners and sell it outright for $199.00. A lot LOT less headache for them this way, and I'm sure we would get over it.  ;)

 

[HonestOpinion]

 

...

 

I actually think they should just withdraw the special deal for Helix owners and sell it outright for $199.00. A lot LOT less headache for them this way, and I'm sure we would get over it.  ;)

 

 

 

I know you are joking. Terrible idea!!!!!  :(  

[spikey]

Ok, tell me what's so terrible about my idea if you were Line 6?

 

1. The software purchase price now has nothing to do with a Helix hardware purchase.

2. There is no attached reason for Helix to be returned (or even purchased) then to get the software.

3. Less hassle for Line 6 (HUGE REASON) to sell the product that people will buy anyway if it's any count.

4. Yea it costs $100.00 more than it did. Big freeking deal. That's a dinner out for a family of 4 and a movie these days.

5. This idea stops THIEVES from stealing software by buying the hardware and then returning it.

6. If the software is worth its own salt, it will sell itself without having to rely on the hardware anyway. 

7. I'd rather pay for a product that sells itself. Wouldn't you?

8. If you ran Line 6, and had this choice as an option now, what business decision would you make? Stay the course and possibly have 100's of hardware unit returns just to get the software, or make another hundred bucks on non-returnable software?

[HonestOpinion]

Ok, tell me why that's so terrible about my idea?

 

1. The software purchase price now has nothing to do with a Helix hardware purchase.

2. There is no attached reason for Helix to be returned (or even purchased) then to get the software.

3. Less hassle for Line 6 (HUGE REASON) to sell the product that people will buy anyway if it's any count.

4. Yea it costs $100.00 more than it did. Big freeking deal. That's a dinner out for a family of 4 and a movie these days.

5. This idea stops THIEVES from stealing software by buying the hardware and then returning it.

6. If the software is worth its own salt, it will sell itself without having to rely on the hardware anyway.

7. I'd rather pay for a product that sells itself. Wouldn't you?

8. If you ran Line 6, and had this choice as an option now, what business decision would you make? Stay the course and possibly have 100's of hardware unit returns just to get the software, or make another hundred bucks on non-returnable software?

I appreciate your analysis and maybe you make some good points for a Line6 stockholder but not so much for a Helix owner. In general I don't see any percentage in encouraging manufacturers to double my price when other solutions are available. Additionally, the increased price could hamstring the product's initial sales. Quite simply, I don't run or own the Line6 company, I purchase their products and you are suggesting they double the price I would have to pay for Native, a proposed price they have already posted for Helix owners. That would be bad PR and make a lot of prospective customers quite unhappy.

 

The reduced price for Helix owners is a perk for those who have invested in the Helix and an added incentive to purchase not only Native but also to purchase a Helix. The $100 price represents a low barrier of entry and makes it likely that there will be many early adopters of Native which helps to ensure its success and longevity. At $200 to buy Native for a Helix owner there may be dramatically fewer sales, I would assume they tried to factor in number of sales versus price when they determined the price to set. Additionally remember that the $100 means they have just sold a $1500 Helix. Of course, nothing is written in stone and prices can change.

 

There are other strategies for stopping software theft that don't involve doubling the price of Native for many of its potential customers. I assume they have already thought about the pricing and will leave it up to them to come up with a solution that protects their intellectual property and product without doubling the price for Helix owners. Are you going to ask them for extra homework next? Spikey, 'fess up, did you sell your Helix? Just kiddin'. ;)

[bobthedog]

I must admit I would rather pay $100 than $199!

[tommasoferrarese]

People willing to go through the hassle of buying Helix and returning it to pay 99 bucks instead of 399 might as well go for the cracked version that's surely going to be available soon (let's not discuss release dates lol).

And if line6 states clearly that licenses have to be transferred (as eventide does with their H9 purchases or many companies like Native instruments do) prior to resale, and that Helix return is subject to not opening the software coupon card, that would be hassle free..

no return accepted if you opened the plugin code, easy as hell

[spikey]

 

Are you going to ask them for extra homework next? Spikey, 'fess up, did you sell your Helix? Just kiddin'.  ;)

 

 

Nope. I still have my Helix and do not plan to sell it anytime soon.

 

I just like to see those who would order a $1400 piece of hardware and then return it just to steal software for a better price, cringe a bit.

In other words, Besides being dishonest and a crook, they are so tight every time the let gas their nose bleeds. 

 

I also support Line 6, as should we all. It's a pretty simple concept really. When they do well, in return we see the benefits. 

When they do not do well on a product, we don't get the updates or extras. All support goes out the window.

So you see, it's not just about you or me or extra homework. It's about common sense economics support that goes both ways.

 

[Inerzia]

Buy Native at 199 anyway? I'm not so sure

When it was announced I inmediately thought "ok, cool, it was about time they did something beyond Pod Farm, but I'll probably not buy it unless it's really affordable"

The thing is... I wasn't really counting on using Helix to record this time (for the new batch of my band's songs), I was actually thinking of using pedals on a true bypass switcher, the TriAxis, and going out of the balanced outputs of my peavey classic 50/50 poweramp straight to the audio interface. Then use mixIR for cabs and other plugins for mod, delay and reverb
It's been so long since I relied on any modeling software for guitar tracks (the kind that actually make it to the final mix) that I manage perfectly without it.

Sounds as killer as hardware and is affordable? Ok, I'm interested. Sounds anything like Guitar Rig, Eleven, S-Gear, POD Farm, BIAS... I'll pass and stick to hardware, be it Helix or other stuff.

As I posted earlier, I tried using my Helix presets straight to the computer, and doing full song takes, because it seemed easier than trying to replicate all routing and expression control used in my patches, but after that batch of songs I thought: what do I want all those stompboxes for then, if I'm not using them live (ATM) and I won't use them for recording? For live use, I prefer to rely on Helix, but in the studio... well, I can get lovely sounds out of Helix, of course, but I tend to prefer the actual stompboxes (I have a few of the modeled originals, and a few clones).

I'm not a real fan of reamping anyway, so I'd just use the Helix hardware or different gear, I doubt I would buy native at 199$
Maybe it's psychological, but that's the way it is. I've got my mind set on getting it for 99, as it was announced. The price just seemed (and seems) right.
And I know it's something I'm gonna use quite a lot, if not so much for my own stuff, at least for clients, specially those on a budget, those who can't afford to spend 3 or 4 hours trying different gear before they decide what they want to record with.

 

Oh, we love speculating, don't we?  :D

[spikey]

People willing to go through the hassle of buying Helix and returning it to pay 99 bucks instead of 399 might as well go for the cracked version that's surely going to be available soon (let's not discuss release dates lol).

 

 

Agreed and they will I'm sure. But I've heard that you just can't expect updates very often that way.  ;)

[Inerzia]

Agreed and they will I'm sure. But I've heard that you just can't expect updates very often that way.  ;)

With the original you can't expect updates very often anyway  :D

[brue58ski]

I am a Helix owner. $99 for Native is $1 less than the most I would pay being a Helix owner. $200? I'll just plug my Helix into the computer.

[HonestOpinion]

I just wanted to add that potential customers who are trying to decide between the Helix and the LT may find the $100 price for Native just the incentive they need to go for the Helix.  They are looking at a $300 discount for the software when they buy the hardware. Similarly, hopefully those who are interested in Native may purchase the LT so they can pay $300 for it instead of $400. It seems to me that the proposed pricing for Native acts as an incentive that helps sell Helix and LT devices. As exciting as the prospect of Native may be, the Helix and its continued development, longevity, and support still remain my first priority and this pricing scheme appears as if it will help boost Helix and LT sales. I think everyone wins, Line6 and their customers.

 

Update: Edited per price correction in twpmeister's post.

[twpmeister]

I just wanted to add that potential customers who are trying to decide between the Helix and the LT may find the $100 price for Native just the incentive they need to go for the Helix. They are looking at a $300 discount for the software when they buy the hardware. Similarly, hopefully those who are interested in Native may purchase the LT so they can pay $200 for it instead of $400. It seems to me that the proposed pricing for Native acts as an incentive that helps sell Helix and LT devices. As exciting as the prospect of Native may be, the Helix and its continued development, longevity, and support still remain my first priority and this pricing scheme appears as if it will help boost sales. I think everyone wins, Line6 and their customers.

just wondered where you get the $200 figure from? I thought lt users had to stump $299 so only a $100 discount

[HonestOpinion]

just wondered where you get the $200 figure from? I thought lt users had to stump $299 so only a $100 discount

 

Is it $299 for LT users? I will update my post, thanks for the heads up.

[twpmeister]

I'm not certain, but that's the figure I recall

[twpmeister]

I think it's to encourage more full helix sales - lt plus native is very nearly as much as full helix plus native

[phil_m]

In all honesty I really think for people who already own any version of helix it should be completely free- you've already sold us the product. But since they've valued the software alone at $399 obviously $99 is a little easier to swallow, to be fair it's not much more than the cost of getting a guitar setup and serviced.

Well, the time and manpower needed to develop the plug-in is over and above the cost of the Helix itself, so surely it's only right that Line 6 expect something in return for their investment... I mean, $99 is an incredible deal for the plug-in when it comes down to it. If you're recording with a computer and doing any sort of re-amping, it's so much faster than the hardware re-amping. The whole workflow is just so much more efficient with the plug-in.

[HonestOpinion]

I think it's to encourage more full helix sales - lt plus native is very nearly as much as full helix plus native

 

I agree completely and free for the Helix would be awesome and an even greater incentive although perhaps Line6 was concerned this would devalue the perception of Native for those who pay the $400 or $300(LT owner) price tag. People tend to place less value on products that are offered for free and resent having to purchase them when they are offered at no cost with another package. I can understand Line6's rationale. Not to mention that $100 multiplied by lots of Helix owners is still probably a respectable revenue stream. 

[HonestOpinion]

Well, the time and manpower needed to develop the plug-in is over and above the cost of the Helix itself, so surely it's only right that Line 6 expect something in return for their investment... I mean, $99 is an incredible deal for the plug-in when it comes down to it. If you're recording with a computer and doing any sort of re-amping, it's so much faster than the hardware re-amping. The whole workflow is just so much more efficient with the plug-in.

Agreed, the pricing scheme as it stands now, with a $300 discount for Helix owners, seems like it will have the greatest impact on driving Helix sales. The $100 savings on Native represents less of an incentive for LT owners although it will probably help sell a few. As you point out that $99 price for Helix owners will help defray Native's development costs and probably eventually, perhaps swiftly, result in additional profits. This will apply particularly if the changes to the firmware/software design that Line6 is currently working on result in streamlining product development for the entire Helix family on all of its various platforms.

 

If improvements and additions to the Helix and LT firmware can be quickly incorporated into Native software (or vice-versa: Native --> Helix/LT), Line6 ends up with an efficient way to keep all the Helix products in synch and a method for maximizing profits while keeping product costs lower. Again, everyone wins. The only potential hitch I can see to the plan is if keeping the product line in synch results in substantial delays to firmware updates as it is now. Delays now are to be expected and are an inevitable downside during the revamp of the development process and its underlying components. I think the benefit to those focused on the Helix and LT rests in Line6's success in developing a relatively unified and expedited method for coding to all of the Helix products simultaneously. I know that is their goal and it should help to ensure continued success and sales and result in less time required for updates.

[PeterHamm]

If 99 smackers is too much for you as a Helix owner, then congratulations, you are now officially not their target customer.

If 399 is too much for you as a NON-Helix owner... the same...

[spikey]

I still say abort it completely from the hardware, and then iLok it. Basically theft proof then and I don't care what they charge for it at that point.

 

Most people have an iLok or eLicenser dongle with room on it (for other software) these days anywho. 

[Rewolf48]

I don't have an iLok and I wouldn't get Native if it required one.

I don't make any money of consequence from my music and with a family the budget and time is much more limited than I like. I have to draw the line somewhere - any purchase has to have significant advantages over existing gear - it took nearly two years to upgrade from HD500 to Helix - and the $99 price point is perfect; I can justify that as I can justify a Reaper licence, but I don't generally spend money on VST and VSTi because my use is limited and payback non-existent. I use free and bundled ones and try to make do with the limitations.

Any higher price for Native then I don't buy it. If I have to buy an iLok for it then I don't buy it.

[Lachdanan0121]

Do not iLok Helix Native! Just tie it to your L6 acct, and be done with it.

 

ImageLine doesn't go for that iLok crap, and neither does Toontrack, or Waves... And they are hardly hurting financial wise.

[duncann]

Make a product that's good enough so that most people won't even consider not paying, and extreme measures like iLok won't even be necessary. It's even possible that iLok could end up unnecessarily costing Line 6 more in the long run. Although I have never seen or used Helix Native, I believe that Line 6 has a product that's going to be good enough, based on the hardware version.

[mdmayfield]

Take a page from REAPER and Steam, and don't punish honest paying customers with idiotic and obstructive copy protection.  :wacko: I've been burned by iLok before and as much as I can help it I avoid products that use it.

[spikey]

ImageLine doesn't go for that iLok crap, and neither does Toontrack, or Waves... And they are hardly hurting financial wise. 

 

 

It's not crap- far from it, and I've not had any issues with it, as most haven't or Companies wouldn't use them. It's company protection from theft of property. Stops the freeloaders and digital welfare thieves. I'm sure Line 6 would appreciate that fact. Arturia, Steinberg, Fractal Audio, Avid, EastWest, and Slate Digital aren't hurting financial wise either im thinking, they ALL use dongles and the point is they don't have to worry much about theft.  It takes a bit more to set up granted, but easy to do and then you are golden. I have "never" had an issue with my iLok or eLicenser dongle. Unless you are a virtual blooming idiot it's really simple to set up, but then if that's the case (not pointing to anyone in particular but if the shoe fits) then you don't need to buy software anyway!  ;) So, I say raise the price of Native to 199.00, Abort its connection with Helix entirely for purchase, use a dongle, and enjoy your software... ;)   :lol: As always, YMMV.

[HonestOpinion]

I have spent more than enough time over the years on the phone with licensing support, using license protection devices/dongles, and all manner of arcane licensing schemes with software ranging from retail apps that cost $50 to enterprise software that costs millions of dollars. There is definitely a point of diminishing returns, somewhat predicated on how high the price of the software is, where over-protecting your software can actually start to hinder sales. You can end up irritating your customers and ensure that they will not recommend the software to others. It is kind of like a retail store. Sure you could put everything behind glass but there are greater profits to be had in most locations by allowing consumers to buy what they need with a minimum of inconvenience and deter theft with cameras, the occasional prosecution, and reliance on the fact that most people would rather purchase than be caught stealing. Maybe you put the really pricey and smaller items that are easy to shoplift behind glass. Granted the virtual software world model is different and people will steal software who would never shoplift but you still don't lock up a $200 dollar bicycle from Walmart with the anchor chain from a battleship - it is just overkill and way too much hassle for the consumer. Additionally, if you are a software and also a hardware company and are using your software to leverage and encourage hardware sales as Line6 plans to do with Native, the $99 price tag for Helix owners seems just right to me.

[spikey]

but you still don't lock up a $200 dollar bicycle from Walmart with the anchor chain from a battleship

 

 

LOL yea, because someone might steal the chain!!!  :D

[HonestOpinion]

LOL yea, because someone might steal the chain!!!  :D

 

:D