Cheated by the company

[aerosol_d7]

Hi friends

Let s say I am a mean person, small company, selling my pedals, so, I have, for example, 6 amp models developed.

Main ones: clean, high gain, crunch, vintage, Brit, American etc. So, people buy it. They are happy. My engineer who developed the amp model left the company, I only have his assistant now. No money and need quick action.

Now the market is demanding for new amps, competition is ahead. So, I decide to sell a bundle with new amps, BUT I will cheat, going for a easy way: get for example the old clean (black face double) change the default settings, make some light changes and label it is a new model (jazz chorus120).

 

Is there any way to the customers know that I cheated?

 

Am I able to achieve all new amp models using old models as a base with eq's and etc?

 

I'm trying to see value on JC 120 that I just bought and I could replicate it using blackface double.... I need to record and analyze the spectrum to be sure but I can't hear any difference between them at all so far.....

 

As long it is digital I think it is possible

 

 

 

Give me your thoughts

[PRSGuy]

I think it is okay to ask if the model packs are worth the money or if you can create similar sounds with the existing amps...but to imply the company, even if a joke, is trying to cheat its customer base is off the mark. If you don't find value in the model packs you can return them.

 

Why start the conversation with the implication of wrong doing?

 

Am I missing something here?

[radatats]

Give me your thoughts

 

I think you are nuts...

[TheRealZap]

Well I know for a fact that the HD amp models in the model packs are new.

 

so that puts the whole premise of your argument completely moot.

 

but can you get close with other models? of course... people have been coming up with an alternative JC120 sound since the HD was released... because we all wanted it!

 

if it's not worth it to YOU... yes YOU... it's completely within your rights to request a refund.

 

does it really matter what the rest of us think on this matter?

 

... but know that you've not been cheated. period.

[mattbarden]

Dude, just return the model pack and get your refund if you aren't happy with it. This is a poor way to approach it. I didn't like anything in the metal pack as much as I did the Treadplate so I got my money back, Line 6 was very cool about it and in no way cheated me.

[pianoguyy]

There are people who can't hear the difference between a Fender and Marshall. 

So, it wouldn't surprise me that someone like you may think a Blackface and Roland sound alike. 

[JTSC777]

Yes please return it. I am a heavy duty jazz player. That JC-120 is better than any JC-120 I have ever owned. It is better than Rolands own various modeled versions of it. I should know I have gigged/ recorded/ gone to war with all of them. Besides a crappy Polytone the JC-120 is the definitive loud clean jazz amp. I am not talking Mettalica fiddling around with it I am talking about thousands of great jazz players using it. If you have not owned the amp then maybe thats is part of the problem. These are however software modeled amps. I can make that Line 6 JC-120 model sound like lots of other amps. Thats the beauty of it. With enough futzing around I can get a Mesa Metalish tone out of the Pete Anderson. Run into a good set of FRFR speakers the L6 new Roland JC-120 model is almost indistinguishable from the real thing.

 

Feel free to BBQ me now!

[JTSC777]

sorry if I spelled Metallica incorrectly

[ozbadman]

...but I can't hear any difference between them at all so far.....

 

Give me your thoughts

turn the gain down and put away your metal guitar.

 

Oh, and change the title of the thread.

[mattbarden]

Oh, and change the title of the thread.

This title was poorly chosen, it won't make a lot of "friends" here like the OP so eloquently asked thoughts from.

[rd2rk]

Mean person or happy troll?

[arislaf]

To the OP. Well, it is possible to happen what you say. In digital world everything is possible. Matter of fact it is 0 and 1 all around, so you can say it is an amp only in the pods. But i don't feel cheated. It is not something I can do by myself. And to have this amp, is really useful. Even if you can get the same exactly tone via EQ, you are losing FXblocks. That is my opinion.

[ppiluk]

Hi friends

Let s say I am a mean person, small company, selling my pedals, so, I have, for example, 6 amp models developed.

Main ones: clean, high gain, crunch, vintage, Brit, American etc. So, people buy it. They are happy. My engineer who developed the amp model left the company, I only have his assistant now. No money and need quick action.

Now the market is demanding for new amps, competition is ahead. So, I decide to sell a bundle with new amps, BUT I will cheat, going for a easy way: get for example the old clean (black face double) change the default settings, make some light changes and label it is a new model (jazz chorus120).

 

Is there any way to the customers know that I cheated?

 

Am I able to achieve all new amp models using old models as a base with eq's and etc?

 

I'm trying to see value on JC 120 that I just bought and I could replicate it using blackface double.... I need to record and analyze the spectrum to be sure but I can't hear any difference between them at all so far.....

 

As long it is digital I think it is possible

 

 

 

Give me your thoughts

The included amps in the POD HD series should be able to get just about any sound you would want. Its been my experience that Line 6 has made its share of mistakes but I have never observed any evidence of cheating their customers. 

 

Yes please return it. I am a heavy duty jazz player. That JC-120 is better than any JC-120 I have ever owned. It is better than Rolands own various modeled versions of it. I should know I have gigged/ recorded/ gone to war with all of them. Besides a crappy Polytone the JC-120 is the definitive loud clean jazz amp. I am not talking Mettalica fiddling around with it I am talking about thousands of great jazz players using it. If you have not owned the amp then maybe thats is part of the problem. These are however software modeled amps. I can make that Line 6 JC-120 model sound like lots of other amps. Thats the beauty of it. With enough futzing around I can get a Mesa Metalish tone out of the Pete Anderson. Run into a good set of FRFR speakers the L6 new Roland JC-120 model is almost indistinguishable from the real thing.

 

Feel free to BBQ me now!

 

I have yet to pick up the Amp packs but I have a lot of respect for JTSC777's opinions on the JC-120 and am sure with a little effort on your part you will be able to get the sound you are looking for. 

[joel_brown]

We never landed on the moon.

Elvis is still alive.

Aliens are among us (Men In Black is a documentary).

 

Any other notable conspiracies ?

 

But to answer the OP question.  You can't be cheated with a money back guarantee.

[maxnew40]

I have to agree with the rest I don't see the blackface double and the JC120 sounding the same at all. Tin ears?

 

-Max

[pianoguyy]

We never landed on the moon.

Elvis is still alive.

Aliens are among us (Men In Black is a documentary).

 

We did land on the moon, and were greeted by aliens - and told never to return. Which is why we haven't. 

 

Elvis would be 80 years old. Had he not died, he would be dead. 

Jim Morrison faked his own death to escape being 'Jim Morrison'. Pam too. 

Andy Kauffman, however, he faked his death as a prank. But died before he could return. OOPS. 

 

Aliens ARE among us. MIB was not a documentary, nor was it a mockumentary. But it was propaganda. Used to wean us into the idea of not being alone. 

 

 

 

 

If you're gonna talk about this stuff, at least get your facts straight. 

[taylorbeats]

I bought the model packs and just sold my Jazz Chorus finally because the POD actually sounded better!  To the OP, you left out a lot of detail, what type of amp do you run the Pod through, what type of headphones, what type of speakers?  I like to use Tone Gen Pro (iphone app) to run the speakers through their paces. 20 hz-20,000 hz, plus a pink and white noise generator, also run a spectrum analyzer on a separate ipad to look for any weak spots that I might have to eq later.

[aerosol_d7]

Guys I'm not saying that I was cheated, if I accomplish making one amp based on the old one, if it is the only I wanted it I would return.

In this case from all the amps I just came close to one, as above mentioned, even not 100% sure.

BUT let's say I have time and patience, I try to do for all amps and end up successfully. Then I would feel cheated. Or someone claim to have achieved and sell the setlist.

 

Isn't worth asking ?

 

I see some angry people, it is just a question. A thought. I saw one post in the past that one guy said why buy the bundle if you can replicate them.

 

Back to the original question, I think the only way to know if my company cheated is seeing the source code, or codes and compare, since you can copy paste anything in computers. But I'd to know another way, from music perspective.

 

By the same token, One subject that came to my mind is:

Studio direct mode : IRs vs Other modes: eq (voiced cabs)

 

How do people know this? Line 6 mentioned or there is a way/ method (as myquestion) that I do not know?

[cruisinon2]

 

 

Give me your thoughts

 

Here, try this on...you'll be able to tune them in yourself.

 

1....2...3....SENDING!

[alienux]

I'm going to have to agree with everyone else here. Just because you don't personally hear a difference doesn't mean there isn't one, especially without us knowing exactly what kind of other equipment you have it going through. If you aren't happy, return for a refund and be done with it.

[phil_m]

None of the amps are real... They all exist only in your mind.

 

[aerosol_d7]

The amps are different to each other, however the configuration that I prefer can be replicated with other existing amp. You will say: you answered your own question, yes and no, it is just an example.

 

Let me re ask the question: how do we know what is internally? If I have an amp modelling pedal, how do we know if it is IRs or IRs+eq or EQs mimicking post amps?

 

I know that direct mode in pod uses IRs because I read all over the place, but how those who have written know? Does it come from the manufacturer only?

 

Arislaf: you are right, saving time and resources.

[taylorbeats]

I think you ask a valid question, however outside of some type of industrial espionage or going to work as an Line 6 programmer-you will never know, and even if someone from the company told you (not showed) exactly how they did it, would you trust the answer as the absolute truth? 

[pianoguyy]

its all just 1's and 0's. 

I assume this isn't the first iPhone you own. Can you call it cheating, that they tweaked the 1's and 0's in order to make the iPhone 3 different than the iPhone 1, or the iPod or even an Android. 

 

Like, for real, tweak enough 1's and 0's on your Commodore 64 and you can be running Windows 11 -- except for the hardware limitations. 

 

 

 

 

But, NO, I wouldn't feel cheated. 

Half of the amp companies started with someone else's amp that they modified, the other half tried to replicate something else from scratch. It just takes a few little tweaks to make it your own. 

So, if they can make Amp A sound like Amp B just by a few minor tweaks --- more power to 'em. 

[aerosol_d7]

I won't be surprised If someone from line6 says that line6 used to do that on previous non-HD series...

Anyway, I wish I could know those internal differences, as for now nobody seem to know.

[aerosol_d7]

I think you ask a valid question, however outside of some type of industrial espionage or going to work as an Line 6 programmer-you will never know, and even if someone from the company told you (not showed) exactly how they did it, would you trust the answer as the absolute truth?

Yeah, I see your point.

I saw a video about Jim Marshall saying that he put anything that was around and easy on his amps in old days, people were cheated, it came out from his Mouth when he was drunk to a known guitarist, if I'm not mistaken.

[Akeron]

My engineer who developed the amp model left the company, I only have his assistant now.

 

The first part is documented in

 

http://line6.com/supportarchive/thread/13793/

 

The second part I hope is fiction... but only Line 6 knows that. Maybe Digital_Igloo could confirm they still got developers...

[BillBee]

I wouldn't be surprised if it took you hours and days, into weeks, leading to months to try and tweak the standard amps into the HD Packs (or something close). When the Packs for the XT came out yeah you could get close to some but never quite get it, best $ was nabbing the packs on sale.

 

The above thread link is more of a "eh" than a "wow". IMO of course.

 

-B

[joel_brown]

How Line6 developed the new amp models is irrelevant.  If you like them great, otherwise return them for a refund.  You will NEVER know the answer you're looking for cause Line6 isn't going to show you the source code - EVER.

 

Another way of looking at this is: you're the only person asking this question.  Most people liked the new amp models and a few people didn't see the need and returned them.

 

You are not being cheated.......  You may be a little paranoid, but not cheated.

 

So here's my smart lollipop response: (couldn't resist, sorry)

I tried the new amp models and it still sounded like me playing the guitar.  All the other amp models sounded like me playing the guitar too.

[aerosol_d7]

I'm not asking to see the source code. Knowing that IRs are used in direct pa mode and eq voiced cab for others, isn't it a kind of revealing part of the secret sauce?

 

If you don't know the answer, just let who know answer. I' m nuts, whatever, some people just post for attacking or for increasing the nb of posts I believe.

[taylorbeats]

Well, you started your post by attacking line 6 so...

[maxnew40]

Guys I'm not saying that I was cheated, if I accomplish making one amp based on the old one, if it is the only I wanted it I would return.

In this case from all the amps I just came close to one, as above mentioned, even not 100% sure.

BUT let's say I have time and patience, I try to do for all amps and end up successfully. Then I would feel cheated. Or someone claim to have achieved and sell the setlist.

 

Isn't worth asking ?

 

I see some angry people, it is just a question. A thought. I saw one post in the past that one guy said why buy the bundle if you can replicate them.

 

Back to the original question, I think the only way to know if my company cheated is seeing the source code, or codes and compare, since you can copy paste anything in computers. But I'd to know another way, from music perspective.

 

By the same token, One subject that came to my mind is:

Studio direct mode : IRs vs Other modes: eq (voiced cabs)

 

How do people know this? Line 6 mentioned or there is a way/ method (as myquestion) that I do not know?

 

 

 

Using your logic the Marshall amplifier company has been cheating people since it was created.  The original Marshall amps were basically copies of the Fender Bassman amps. They didn't invent a circuit or anything they just copied it. The original Fender amps were not original designs, the circuits were taken from documentation from the tube manufacturers to show you what you could do with their tubes. So in essence they have all just copied and pasted the original source code to make every classic tube amp in existence. I really don't see your point. Even if you could view the source code you would find a lot of shared code for all the amp models, it is just how efficient software design works. The only way you would be able to get anything from the source code is if you are an experience software engineer with experience in DSP.

 

-Max

[radatats]

. I' m nuts, whatever, some people just post for attacking or for increasing the nb of posts I believe.

 

no, you asked for my thoughts, I gave them to you.  In the end analysis who gives a fu*k?  If it's useable, great, if not, send it back.  Roland charges $299 for a new model pack with only 2 models in it vs $99 for the full 24 with some new cabs too.  And ours are all mix and match, cabs, mics, full amp models, preamp models.  And you are wasting brain cells wondering if they are trying to bang you out for a few extra bucks with an old amp model with a few tweaks...  :huh:

 

I have plenty of posts covering real issues and helping people with real problems... nice try though...

[aerosol_d7]

Man, I should have posted at thegearpage...

 

Or I would ask meambobbo directly how he got to know the IR's is used in direct mode....

[radatats]

Man, I should have posted at thegearpage...  Or I would ask meambobbo directly how he got to know the IR's is used in direct mode....

 

perhaps you could have simply rephrased the original post in a way that would encourage others to provide useful responses...  as it is, you kind of got what you asked for... lol...

[aerosol_d7]

As far as I know, I have been treating people with respect, have you? Funny how people treat someone unknown here.

 

I'm not attacking anyone, but there are many as*kissers, fanboys that jump for defending any possible attack. If something is unclear, ask for clarification, don't assume by yourself.

 

For some people it hard to understand, I know...musicians

 

Moreover fallacies all around. Big waste of time...

[radatats]

You imply the company hosting this forum may be cheating you with their recent offering.  You asked for our thoughts.  You get our honest opinions and now claim to be some poor, defenseless, well meaning user merely asking a simple question and those mean old "fanboys" are picking on you...  Maybe you should have asked for clarification in your original post...

 

Right on, total waste of our time...  and that is constructive criticism, not an attack, by the way...

[maxnew40]

As far as I know, I have been treating people with respect, have you? Funny how people treat someone unknown here.

 

I'm not attacking anyone, but there are many as*kissers, fanboys that jump for defending any possible attack. If something is unclear, ask for clarification, don't assume by yourself.

 

For some people it hard to understand, I know...musicians

 

Moreover fallacies all around. Big waste of time...

 

Fact, your post implies that you are claiming Line 6 cheated you, does it not (and your reason is that they won't give you proprietary information right?)

 

And it comes down to you wanting proprietary information that if you had and disseminated you could be sued for. Do you request source code from Microsoft so you can figure out exactly what is different between Windows 7 and Windows 8? Do you think they would give it all to you?

 

The problem you have run into is not being dissed by fanboys, it all comes down to a lollipop attitude and not being able to articulate a question.

 

Can you take any amp in the POD and add EQ and make it sound like and react like the others? Not in my experience, it makes me wonder if you have even used the device. Since you posted here and claim not to be just a troll try an experiment. Load up the Blackface double with all defaults and then using only EQ and cab deps make it sound like a Marshall crunch tone. If there is just a base model and EQ applied for each flavor you should be able to get the same sound as one of the marshal models quickly without using a distortion pedal.

 

-Max

[joel_brown]

Post a sound clip showing us how they sound the same.

[ozbadman]

As far as I know, I have been treating people with respect...

Unfortunately, starting a thread labelled "is company B cheating me" is not treating that company with respect. I don't know why you think it is. It's the same as me starting a thread "is aerosol_d7 cheating me?". Not respectful. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Had you called the thread "Does anyone know what differences exist between the models" you would have received different responses.